Rebuilding Hope: Recovering After A Storm Destroys the Church?

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that said, OK, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.

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It's not a bad thing.

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But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.

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And thankfully, we have a blueprint for that

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in the word of God.

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Natalie Runyon, it is great to have you back here on Charisma.

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And it was just not too long ago that you and I

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talked for the first time.

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And that time was about your book,

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Raised to Stay, which was about identifying church hurt

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and how we don't need to necessarily run away.

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But we can be healing agents.

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And really, since then, we have seen scandal

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after scandal in the church.

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We've seen the IHOP KC issues with Mike Bickel

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and now recently with Robert Morris at Gateway Church

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and the issues that have come out.

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But God prompted you ahead of time

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to write your latest book on the heels of Raised to Stay.

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And now it's the house that Jesus built.

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And so Natalie, I got to ask you,

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why did you feel such an urgency to get this book out so quickly?

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It was so interesting how Raised to Stay hadn't even

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gone to edits yet.

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And I was asking the Lord, just in my quiet time,

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if I were to put out a second book later down the road,

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what would that second book be?

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And this phrase, the house that Jesus built,

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just kind of was dancing around in my spirit a little bit.

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And so I actually looked up the story

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of the three little pigs.

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And I was like, because when you think about building houses

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and an enemy, you think of this nursery rhyme

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that we grew up hearing about all the time.

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And so there is actually a moral to this story

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was that these three little pigs were tasked with building

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houses that would protect them from the enemy.

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But two of them wanted to go play.

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And so they built fast and they built with bad materials.

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And as a result of that, the one who built not in a hurry,

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the one who built with good materials with the brick

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is the one that actually could withstand

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the hot air of the enemy when that wolf came in to huff

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and puff and blow the house down.

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And I started thinking about our churches

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and this deconstruction movement that we've been in

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and thinking, you know, there have been some foundational

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issues where we as church people have built fast

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and we've built on bad foundation.

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And now we're seeing the enemy come in and huff and puff

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and blow our churches down through moral failures,

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sheep that are being abused, all of the things that led us

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to this deconstruction.

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So throughout all of scripture, God allowed his people

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to tear things down.

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But there was always a blueprint to rebuild.

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And so I wanted to write a book that said,

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okay, we're in the rubble of deconstruction.

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It's not a bad thing.

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But now we have this huge task as a generation to rebuild.

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And thankfully we have a blueprint for that

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in the word of God.

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Yeah, you know, a couple of years ago at my parents' house,

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there was an issue with the foundation

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in part of the house.

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And they actually had to have somebody come in

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and figure out how to shore up the foundation

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and fix everything.

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And that was a big, expensive process.

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And it wasn't because the foundation was previously bad.

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It was just that it was very, very old and things had decayed.

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So we need to pay attention to our foundations all the time

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and make sure that everything's are cleared out.

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But what are some of these foundational things

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that we really need to make sure that we are building upon?

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And what are some of the things that we've built upon

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that are crumbling?

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Well, in the raised estate community, which is online,

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we have a very robust family of about 180,000 of, you know,

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stayers who are very honest with me about the reasons why

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they have gone through a deconstruction process

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or why they've left their faith altogether.

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And a lot of it came down to being severely disappointed

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and hurt by people who should know better

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and are behaving badly through abuse, celebrity culture,

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not being integrists with their finances.

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There are so many things that, like you said,

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the foundation could have started well,

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but over time it has become decayed

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due to us not taking care of it.

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And so when I looked at the different things

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that people were telling me,

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we really came down to spiritual abuse.

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It came down to an orphan spirit

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that a lot of our pastors and leaders have come under

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when they haven't reached celebrity status.

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We've got a lot of consumers in the kingdom now

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who want the church to work for them

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and not the other way around.

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And so those foundational practices I talk about

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in those first four chapters of like, what took us down?

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What is it that made us unsteady?

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And then in those last eight chapters,

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I talk about the book of Acts.

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And I go into Acts chapter two,

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which we love the second chapter of Acts as Pentecostals

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because we're like, man, there's like tongues of fire

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and they're speaking in tongues.

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But really when Peter stands up

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and he begins to preach this message in the upper room,

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what he's doing is he's laying out a foundational surface

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for the very first church, which was repentance,

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reconciliation, forgiveness, communion, worship,

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the word of God.

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And so when we look at all of those elements,

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we think, wow, it's actually not having to recreate the wheel.

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If we as a church just went back to that second chapter

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of Acts and saw what was growing the church daily then,

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what if we were to go back to those foundational basics

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in our church today?

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And just as it says in the message translation,

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the people on the outside looked within the walls

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of the upper room and generally liked what they saw.

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Like, great would it be if the world looked

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into our churches and generally liked what they saw?

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Yeah.

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So we focus so much on appearances in the church.

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There's a lot of facade.

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In fact, that's actually one of the biggest complaints

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that I believe people of the world have is that,

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Christians, they just wear masks all the time.

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They're not real.

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How do we show the reality or the realness,

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the authenticity, but still the joy of the Lord?

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Well, I think that's why social media

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is such an interesting space

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because there is a lot of chatter of just being honest.

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Like, let's just be honest for honesty sake

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and let's be vulnerable for vulnerability sake.

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And what can happen is if there's not enough healing

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in those spaces, it can just become a cesspool

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of our wounds kind of meshing together

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and creating this nasty abyss of just woundedness.

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But when we marry honor and honesty,

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and we say, it's okay to be honoring to the leaders

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that have gone before us,

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honoring of those who have paved ways for us,

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but also honest that there have been some things

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that were allowed in the church at the hands of those leaders

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and even at our own hands that have wounded people.

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So how do we talk about that as the church

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in a way that still honors the Lord,

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still honors the organization that is the church,

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that is Jesus's idea,

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and then also honors those who have been wounded

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and who have been victims and not silence their stories,

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but also being honest.

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And in this space where we can say, we know that hurt

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and this should have never happened

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and sitting with empathy for both places,

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because I know a lot of shepherds right now

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who aren't hurting their sheep.

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I know a lot of good shepherds,

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there's more good shepherds than bad shepherds.

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And they're having to kind of take on the blunt,

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the brutal force of a generation

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who's been wounded by the few.

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Yeah, you know, as pastors,

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they're sometimes guilty by association

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and just by being a pastor.

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I know that hurt people hurt people.

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And so if they go from one church to another,

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they're not necessarily healing as they should.

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And so they'll sometimes take their offense

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and put it and project it onto a pastor

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who's not an issue.

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But there are issues.

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I mean, we've had some major ones come out

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in the news recently,

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but those churches are still filled with people

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that love Jesus.

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And, you know, do you throw the baby out with the bath water?

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Do you clean the baby?

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I mean, how do you deal with this

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whenever you have a leader that's fallen?

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What happens to the sheep?

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Well, I've noticed that there are some

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who are looking for a reason to completely walk away.

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And all it will take is one moral failure

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of a leader they thought was infallible

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to give them permission to say,

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well, I knew the church was crazy.

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I knew all the leaders were bad.

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They're no different than the world.

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I'm gonna move on.

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And that's a very small percentage of people, I believe,

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who are in that camp.

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What I believe is happening now

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is that the church has been so hungry for revival,

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so hungry for a move of God that isn't just encounter,

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but also biblical formation and understanding

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and seeing the great commission come to fruition

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in our time, that people are willing

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to not throw the baby out with the bath water,

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but they're a little bit more willing

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to have their foundations checked.

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So as these leaders are falling,

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you're noticing other pastors saying,

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whoa, I don't want that to be my legacy.

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I don't want that to be my story.

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Because you have to remember,

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if the enemy can't kill us

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and he can't basically destroy us,

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he'll try to steal our legacy.

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And that's really the unfortunate thing

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of what's happening right now

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is men who have had legacies and ministry

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are losing those legacies

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and being known for moral failures

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and not all the good they did in the kingdom.

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So we're seeing pastors say, whoa,

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I don't want that to be my legacy.

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Come in and we're gonna hire outside groups

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to do a good check on us, to check on our staff,

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to check on our foundation

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so that we can be up for the next 100 years.

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Yeah.

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So what are some things that we can do to protect ourselves

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or to let's say, shore up that foundation ahead of time?

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Because you just mentioned about people coming in

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and checking on things,

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but I'm thinking about a small church,

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the pastor's maybe got 150 people there.

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If he's doing everything he can to make sure

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that the widow is being taken care of,

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that the poor person is good,

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that the people that are doing well in the church

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are leading and growing in the Lord,

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they can't necessarily bring in an outside audit and stuff.

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But I'm thinking about those pastors as well.

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How can they connect to this message?

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Well, first of all,

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I think we all need to do individual foundation checks

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in our own life.

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I ask why this scripture is search my heart, oh Lord,

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and show me if any wicked ways in me.

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And I'm gonna worry about the plank in my own eye

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before I worry about the speck in someone else's.

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So if my foundation as the ecclesia,

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as the call it out one,

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part of the global church is not healthy.

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And then I go into a church building

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with a bunch of unhealthy little ecclesias,

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then we are probably all going to end up

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at each other's throat for the end of this time

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of being a Christian on this earth.

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So really we all have to start on our own foundations.

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Am I built on Jesus?

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Do I offer reconciliation and forgiveness?

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And am I worshiping?

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Am I doing everything I'm demanding from the church?

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And then second of all, for us and any leader,

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the biggest thing is just, am I pointing people to Jesus?

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Am I doing everything in the scriptures

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that Jesus was doing,

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that he was encouraging his disciples to do?

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And if I can say, yes, I'm doing all of those things,

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then when people come in with a critical spirit,

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which is different than a foundational check,

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but a critical spirit,

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we're able to show them this list of,

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look what we're doing in our city

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and look what we're doing in our Judea and our Samaria

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and to the ends of the earth

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and look how many people are coming to know the Lord.

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And you're just every day getting back on mission

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with that great commission and that great command

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of loving God and loving people.

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And that's really what I'm looking for as a lay person.

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When I walk into a church,

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are they on mission with the great commission

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and are they offering me the great command?

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And are they offering me opportunities

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to do the same in return?

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And so that's a basic start, right?

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Where we can just look within our own hearts,

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am I doing those things?

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And then I'm walking into my church

289
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and I'm saying, they're doing those things.

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And also remember this, it's not the shepherd's job.

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It is not the lead pastor's job

292
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,320
to make sure that all of the Christians are behaving.

293
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His job is to protect the sheep

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and to make sure that the sheep are being fed.

295
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And so we all owe it to each other to be responsible

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and to be our brother's keeper.

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Yeah.

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00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,560
So Natalie, as you were putting together this book,

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the house that Jesus built

300
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,320
and as you're working on this blueprint,

301
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,720
tell me about the research that you've done

302
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,680
and as you're putting everything together

303
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,520
to help us kind of see what this needs to look like today.

304
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,400
Well, I learned more about construction

305
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,920
than I ever wanted to learn.

306
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,160
We were actually ironically building our house

307
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,600
when I was writing this book.

308
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,160
And what was so crazy about it is that I wanted to move in

309
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,800
a lot sooner than we did, because we were moving states.

310
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,320
And I was talking to our main contractor.

311
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And I said, I just want it to get done faster

312
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than it's getting done.

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And he looked at me and he said,

314
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,080
ma'am, would you like this house built quickly

315
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,960
or would you like it done safely?

316
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,560
And I, from there on was like,

317
00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:37,520
I'm actually intrigued by this.

318
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,640
And so what I started doing is looking at different terms

319
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,680
in the construction world when you're building a house.

320
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,280
And one of those researches that I did

321
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,640
was on this concept of rubblization,

322
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,560
where you take the foundation of an old entity

323
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,600
or an old building and you actually use what's left over

324
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,600
to create the foundation of the new thing

325
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:56,760
that you're building.

326
00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,200
And what I loved about that is that Jesus has already come in

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00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:01,440
and done the work.

328
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,440
So we're not like having to build anything new.

329
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,200
We are literally taking what Jesus has given us and saying,

330
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040
okay, there's some things that we need to maybe detangle from

331
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,320
that the world has added into this,

332
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,440
but now we're gonna start rebuilding with Jesus.

333
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,480
And so I just went through the whole construction process

334
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,880
of what it looks like to lay down a floor plan,

335
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,960
a framing and all of that,

336
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,280
and how important spiritually that is in our own lives

337
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,560
to have that framework in our life

338
00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,360
that is the word of God, to have the foundation of Jesus,

339
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,880
to have a floor plan that is invitational

340
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,960
and laid out well so that people see our hearts

341
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,520
and they see our minds and our souls

342
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,560
and we're not just religious people running around.

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And so I did a lot of that research.

344
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,200
And then I did a ton of research on the book of Acts

345
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,280
and what happened when everyone in that upper room

346
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,520
left the upper room, because thank God they left

347
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,800
the upper room so they could take the church beyond.

348
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,560
And all of the different people who were involved in Acts

349
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:54,400
and taking this church out to a world,

350
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,200
the different relationships that were involved

351
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,160
from Paul and Silas and Luke and all of the women

352
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,360
who were included in that with Lydia and John Mark's mom,

353
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,240
Mary and even Dorcas and Aquila and Priscilla

354
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,760
and how so many people came along to help create

355
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,280
this framework that is now the church.

356
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,640
Yeah, that's so cool.

357
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,200
Cause you can look through the Bible

358
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,880
and see how things are actually laid out in the foundation

359
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,640
and you just have to put on those glasses

360
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,680
of a blueprint maker and as a construction worker

361
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,280
and see, oh, this does make sense.

362
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,600
And the Old Testament is so rich in it as well.

363
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,320
I mean, you think about Nehemiah,

364
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,720
like the builders had a hammer and a sword in their hand,

365
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,040
one to build and one to fight.

366
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,840
And I see that for us now is we're the ready builders

367
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:40,720
with Jesus today.

368
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,840
Like we're defending some people,

369
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,080
we're defending some things, but we're also building

370
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,440
and he's tasked us for both.

371
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,520
Yeah.

372
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:49,880
So you mentioned the Old Testament.

373
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,880
I think it's super interesting that the Bible

374
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,680
is very specific on the dimensions and the decorations

375
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,400
for the temple and the tabernacle.

376
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,400
As you're looking at blueprints for your house

377
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,560
and you're looking at blueprints in the Old Testament

378
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,040
and the New Testament, what are some other things

379
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,320
that have surprised you that you were like,

380
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,200
I've never seen that as a building implement

381
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,000
or a foundational aspect before?

382
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,640
I mean, you just think about like all of the different

383
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,440
individual beams that have to be put in

384
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,560
just for there to be stability for the other beams

385
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,120
that are gonna be coming in.

386
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,880
We look at a house and we say, wow, that's a beautiful house.

387
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,120
Kind of the way we look at a church,

388
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,120
we think that's a massive cathedral,

389
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,080
but we forget that there are these individual

390
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,200
single unit things like the gyms in the New,

391
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,080
in the Old Testament, the different carpet colors,

392
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,920
the curtains, there are things that are strategically placed

393
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,800
within the walls that you can't even necessarily see

394
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,400
right off the bat that are there for protection,

395
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,200
beauty, for character, to tell a story,

396
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,080
to provide historical context.

397
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,120
And so I think for the average person,

398
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,960
they look at a church and they see four things.

399
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,920
They see the outside structure, they see the inside decor,

400
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,640
they see who's on the platform

401
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,120
and they see who has the authority.

402
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:14,760
And while all of those four things

403
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,800
are absolutely important,

404
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,880
that's not actually what's keeping the church up.

405
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,040
What's keeping the church up is the prayers of the people.

406
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,200
It's the intercession.

407
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,920
It is the things that we are doing behind the scenes

408
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,160
that nobody gets a Facebook highlight reel on, right?

409
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,600
And so I think that's what has shocked me the most

410
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,520
is like we ignore and potentially don't take care of

411
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,760
the things that are hidden because it doesn't look attractive,

412
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,640
but it's actually what's keeping us up.

413
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,360
Yeah, the foundations and the structure, the bones of a house

414
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,160
is really important.

415
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,760
And I've heard people say that house has good bones.

416
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,040
It's got good structure, it's got strength,

417
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120
all the supporting walls are in the right places

418
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,600
and doing what they're supposed to be doing.

419
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,000
And yeah, those things don't get seen all the time.

420
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,360
You mentioned earlier about your community,

421
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:07,800
the raised to stay community, the stayers,

422
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,720
and there's like 100,000 some people in this,

423
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,440
which is that's amazing that that many people

424
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,520
have connected to this message.

425
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,120
You mentioned about deconstruction.

426
00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:19,120
And I think we talked about that

427
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:21,200
in our previous conversation as well.

428
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,640
And deconstruction is something that is,

429
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,600
it's different than demolition.

430
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,240
A lot of times people deconstruct their faith,

431
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,720
but really they're just demolishing it.

432
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,080
And they're not actually doing it

433
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,680
with the intention of building it back up again.

434
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,800
Can you talk about what a healthy deconstruction is?

435
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,000
Well, I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge,

436
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:43,840
excuse me.

437
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,560
I've had to talk a lot of pastors off the ledge

438
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,320
because they hear this deconstruction

439
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,960
and they're like my parents age and they think,

440
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,640
well, that must mean deconversion.

441
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,480
And it's like, no,

442
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,120
deconstruction isn't necessarily deconversion.

443
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:55,480
It can just be a detangling.

444
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,600
It's things that people have placed on us

445
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,680
that aren't even scriptural or aren't the Lord.

446
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640
And so in my foreword of raised to stay,

447
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,040
Lisa Bevere says that deconstruction

448
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,680
without any plan to rebuild is just destruction.

449
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,880
And so we really have to search our own hearts

450
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,920
when we're going through our own faith detangling

451
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,920
to say, okay, am I doing this

452
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,000
because there are some things that I'm carrying

453
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,360
that God never asked me to carry like shame, guilt,

454
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,640
things about my sins I know are forgiven

455
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,680
that people keep putting on me,

456
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,200
different things that we were raised in maybe as kids

457
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,040
that actually aren't even scriptural.

458
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,920
And then doing what you just talked about

459
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,960
where we just demolish our faith and walk away altogether.

460
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,160
And what's hard about having a social media presence

461
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,800
like the one that I have is that I have all spectrums

462
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,520
and everyone feels validated

463
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,640
in why they did it the way that they did it.

464
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,920
And so really that's why we need wise counsel in our lives,

465
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,240
mentorship, discipleship, pastors, shepherds

466
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,080
that are healthy to help us discern

467
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,000
if we are really gonna rebuild

468
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,920
or if we're gonna slowly walk away altogether.

469
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,360
Yeah, and we want people to rebuild, obviously.

470
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,000
That's the big thing because we don't want anybody

471
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,320
to walk away from the Lord.

472
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,560
But one of the big reasons that people would walk away

473
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840
from the Lord is because of spiritual abuse

474
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,720
or physical abuse, sexual abuse within a church

475
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,600
by an authority figure.

476
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,480
And the commonists that we have left here,

477
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,800
can we talk about that?

478
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,400
Because that has been the biggest issue

479
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760
in the news recently, those specific things,

480
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,760
spiritual abuse and sexual abuse.

481
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,320
How can we help people with that?

482
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,520
Well, I always say that we have got

483
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,680
to be better listeners as a church.

484
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,000
We can sit down with somebody over coffee

485
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,400
and think we've scratched the surface

486
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,320
of who they are and what they are.

487
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,200
But the minute that somebody tells us,

488
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,560
I was abused by the church or I was hurt by the church,

489
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,240
that's not just like a gloss over,

490
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,240
like, okay, next conversation.

491
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,000
That's an invitation for us to ask deeper questions

492
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,920
and to find out, okay, what kind of hurt are we talking about?

493
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,120
What kind of abuse are we talking about?

494
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,440
So we don't let somebody just stay wounded

495
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,960
and just keep on moving.

496
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,960
We also have to stop defending the church.

497
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,440
Jesus himself, he will defend his church.

498
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,040
We have to start getting to a place

499
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,240
where we're not so busy trying to defend pastors and people,

500
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:17,880
but that we really are more interested

501
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,800
in protecting the sheep.

502
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,120
So I always say, if somebody comes to you and says,

503
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,880
I've been abused, we need to take that absolutely serious

504
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,120
the first time that it's said

505
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:27,600
so that we can do some investigating.

506
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,400
And if it's a child, especially, if it's a teenager,

507
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,240
because that's where the police get involved.

508
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,640
And so I just wanna echo how serious it is

509
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,040
because it is happening.

510
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
The documentaries like Shiny Happy People,

511
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,640
things like that that are starting to come out,

512
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000
those are giving people who have been victimized voices,

513
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,400
thank God, because now they realize, oh, I'm not alone.

514
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,760
If it happened in Texas, if it happened in Utah,

515
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,280
if it happened in New York, it can happen to me in Montana.

516
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,400
You know, this was something that really happened.

517
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,640
So thankfully we're starting to give voices to our victims

518
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,920
to be able to walk this healing thing out.

519
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,240
The worst thing that we can do though,

520
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,600
is to isolate the victim

521
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,360
and to make them feel like it's their fault.

522
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,400
And I think that what we try to do when these big names

523
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,320
get exposed for this type of behavior

524
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600
is because they feel more familiar to us.

525
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,800
We think that doesn't sound like so-and-so.

526
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,160
Well, we don't know so-and-so.

527
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,080
We just know their online presence.

528
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,520
So I always am just such an advocate

529
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,480
for let's be good listeners.

530
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,600
Let's be good friends.

531
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,640
Let's be good shepherds to the sheep God's entrusted to us

532
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,800
and then help them take the next steps

533
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200
towards counseling, healing,

534
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,320
so that they won't leave the church altogether

535
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,400
and they'll know they're safe somewhere.

536
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,560
Yeah.

537
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,400
Natalie, as we're wrapping up here,

538
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,600
what encouragement can you give to people

539
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,200
that are struggling with this, that are wrestling, I guess,

540
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,640
is probably a better term than that.

541
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,560
And then would you pray for people

542
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,000
that are kind of in this need right now too?

543
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,840
Yeah, you know, I think you guys, first of all,

544
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,200
you have to know you're not alone.

545
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,120
I mean, we all, especially in our generation,

546
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,920
in the 40s, 50s, we're really disappointed.

547
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,800
There's just been a lot of disappointment.

548
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,640
And guess what?

549
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,960
We've disappointed people too.

550
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,640
We're not completely exempt from hurting people

551
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,760
and being disappointing for others.

552
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,120
And so to own that and say,

553
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,400
Father, forgive me for the way that I've hurt your sheep,

554
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,240
for the way that I've been part of tearing things down

555
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,680
that you didn't want torn down,

556
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,680
or the way that I've been part of making the foundation

557
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840
a little bit risky, like I have to pray that prayer.

558
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,000
And second of all, to say that there are better churches

559
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,440
out there than what you think.

560
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,440
I always say this, that there are more healthy churches

561
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,400
and more healthy pastors out there than unhealthy ones.

562
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400
And so to remember that it could be kind of like a year

563
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,560
of trying different churches, and as our church says,

564
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,720
you can date for a little bit,

565
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,400
but eventually you gotta put a ring on it.

566
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,160
You know, you want to get to a point

567
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,520
where you are in community,

568
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320
where you can have that experience that hurt you redeemed

569
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,640
by a community that can love you,

570
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,760
and a shepherd who can love you.

571
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080
And finally, just to know that you do have family

572
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560
in the family of God, that you are not an orphan

573
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,320
and you're wanted desperately by God

574
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,720
and by the people that he's entrusted to take care of you.

575
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,720
So don't ever give up on Jesus, number one.

576
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600
If you can't go back to church, don't give up on Jesus,

577
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,800
but know that his family is pretty cool too.

578
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,240
And would you pray for people?

579
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,080
Yes.

580
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520
God, I thank you so much, Lord, for your church.

581
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,200
I thank you, Lord, for your bride.

582
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,200
She is radiant and she is beautiful,

583
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,160
and you are coming back for her.

584
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,800
Father, you are so proud of your children.

585
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,800
You love us so much, God.

586
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
And I just pray for those who are wandering right now,

587
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,160
who at one time was part of a good community,

588
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,760
at one time was on a church staff

589
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,360
and vibrant in their faith.

590
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:42,920
Father, I pray that that flame

591
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
would just be stirred up in them right now.

592
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,840
God, that they would be reminded of the promises

593
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,040
you spoke over them when they were young

594
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,000
and that that flame would just move

595
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,880
into a giant forest fire, God,

596
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,200
that would put them back on mission

597
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,880
with the great commission and loving people well.

598
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,960
God, I just pray, Lord, for those who are wounded,

599
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Father, that you would bind up those wounds

600
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,560
and that you would bring healing

601
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,040
for those who have been disappointed, God,

602
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,280
that you would bring people into their lives, Father,

603
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,160
to give them faith again, maybe for the first time

604
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,720
and going back into a church building.

605
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,640
And for those who are just tired

606
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800
and weary of all of the stuff they're seeing, God,

607
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,480
that you would just put them back in your word

608
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,160
and remind them of what you have to say

609
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,080
because you have the final word.

610
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,680
And I just pray, God, for peace over all of your people now.

611
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,960
In Jesus' name, amen.

612
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,800
Amen.

613
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,840
Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today here

614
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,200
on Charisma, and I just wanna encourage everybody,

615
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,600
you can get her books, Raised to Stay,

616
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,040
and the new one that's coming out,

617
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,840
The House that Jesus Built.

618
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,760
You can get those everywhere the books are available

619
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,560
and definitely on Amazon as well.

620
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,400
Put the link in the description for that as well.

621
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
So Natalie, thank you so much for joining us today.

622
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:52,680
Thanks for having me, John.