Why You Don't Really Understand the New Testament & the Solution with Frank Viola

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Faith and Mission

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podcast, production of the Gospel Mission Network.

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I'm your host, Steve Hannett, pastor, author

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and network leader. And I'm right here with you.

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I'm seeking to bear fruit for the King. And this

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podcast helps you live out your faith and assignment.

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We've got a lot of teachings, conversations,

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and we try to bring the first century church

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Christianity and its values, its principles into

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today's world. So whether you're a church leader,

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or simply following Jesus, my goal is to encourage,

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equip, and send you forward with some clarity

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and fresh vision for your life in ministry. And

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today I'm very, very excited. We have the best

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-selling author, speaker, podcaster, and blogger.

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He is... an amazing man of God with many years

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of experience it's Frank Viola and we're very

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excited to have him on the podcast today and

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you know in fact his blog frankviola .org is

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regularly ranked in the top five of all Christian

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blogs on the web and his podcast which is called

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Christ is All has ranked number one in Canada

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and number two in the U .S. on Apple Podcasts.

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So There's such great volume wisdom and experience

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is going to be released in this episode today

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and he's a prolific author with over 20 books

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that he has written and We're just very very

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excited to have him here today and you know his

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teachings have been described as provocative

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and a kind of classic and He's on a mission guys

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to to really help serious followers of Jesus

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know Jesus more deeply and to really experience

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transformation lasting impact and Today we're

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gonna really be focusing on Frank's new book

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or the new revised edition and expanded in 2025

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the title of the book is the untold story of

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the New Testament Church and We're excited because

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the very day this book was released The print

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edition hit the top 300 on Amazon. Now that's

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out of 33 plus million titles And this book has

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been endorsed by 20 high -voltage scholars. So

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we're we're ready for some me today Frank Viola.

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I want to welcome you to the faith and mission

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podcast my brother Well, it's good to be on Steve.

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It's good to hear your voice again. And when

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I was listening to all those accolades, I didn't

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know who you're talking about, but I'm glad to

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be here. Well, you know, I think the biggest

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claim to fame, which I haven't mentioned yet,

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is that like me, you were born in New Jersey.

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That's what I'm talking about. You got it, baby.

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New Jersey, Jersey boys. I tell you, there are

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saved people in New Jersey today. There are!

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There are, and we're working on a whole lot more

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getting to know Jesus, so we're excited. Yeah,

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there are a few. There are a few saved, but we're

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working on more. That's right, that's right.

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So Frank, I think a lot of people may already

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know who you are, but I think it'd be good maybe

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to describe a little bit about what your current

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ministry assignment is right now in this season.

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Because I know that in the course of time, God

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has had you focus on different things in different

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seasons. So what's this season about in your

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life in ministry? Yeah, that's a good question.

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I would say that big picture wise, my current

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ministry assignment has not changed since the

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Lord sent me out to his work when I was 31 years

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old. Now, and that ministry assignment, the mission

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to which God has called me, is to unveil God's

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eternal purpose, to guide believers on how to

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practically live by the indwelling life of Christ

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and to address the common challenges we Christians

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face. in our time, in our day right now. Now,

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right now, I'm focused on accomplishing that

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very mission through the following means. I've

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got two podcasts. You mentioned one of them,

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Christ is All. The other is called the Insurgence

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Podcast. I've published over 20 books since 2008.

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I run something called the Deeper Christian Life

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Network, which is my most important resource.

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I speak as you do in churches, conferences, Bibles,

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schools. I have a blog, frankbaola .org, which

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you mentioned, and I put out an article every

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week. And it's free, there's no subscription.

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And then I run a premium mastermind for Christian

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leaders called the Insurgence Experience. And

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you, Steve, were part of last year's mastermind.

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So all of that together keeps me quite busy,

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but it's all designed to introduce God's people

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to his high and mighty eternal purpose, which

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is the grand narrative of the entire scripture.

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It's the reason why he created, it's what he's.

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been after from the beginning. His heart beats

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for it. It hasn't changed. And also to equip

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Christians on how to live by the indwelling life

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of Jesus Christ. And so that's really what my

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work is about. And I tailor all of that to help

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believers face the common challenges and problems

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that we have today. And that's what all of my

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work is toward. Yeah, it's very powerful. And

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you know, I'll tell I'll tell you, Frank, and

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to all the listeners that we know that there

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is no shortage of content. There's no shortage

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of podcasts and blogs and networks out there.

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But my experience as being part of the deeper

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life network, participating in the mastermind,

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reading through a bunch of your books, I feel

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like your content cuts through the noise. It

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just there's so much. depth and clarity in the

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content that is being produced through these

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different venues. And I just encourage you that

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it will have links to everything in the show

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notes for you also. to get involved and to explore,

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you're going to find content that isn't common.

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And it has a rich depth to it. So, you know,

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it's really impacted my life. It's impacted my

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ministry personally. And even the idea of the

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indwelling life, Frank, maybe you could just

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share for a second what that means, because that's

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a big deal that I think a lot of people will

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be touched with. Well, the Holy Spirit dwells

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in us. And Christ is now in the Spirit. The Jesus

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that walked the earth, the same Jesus who died

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and rose again from the dead, descended in the

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Spirit. But the Spirit didn't just come upon

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the body of Christ. That's the day of Pentecost.

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And I came out of a segment, and I'm still part

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of, I would say I'm still a Charismatic, so I

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do believe in the empowering of the Spirit. But

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I call that outer garment Christianity. It's

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where the Spirit comes upon you and uses you

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to serve in certain ways. And oftentimes that

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manifests itself in some pretty dramatic ways,

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you know, miracles, signs, wonders, healings,

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etc. But there's something even deeper than that.

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It is the indwelling Spirit who is with us 24

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-7, Christ in the Spirit, the life of Christ.

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And that's the life that we are to live by as

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Christians. Every breathing moment. We don't

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have to live by natural fall in human life. We

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can live by His indwelling life. And this is

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really the central revelation of the New Testament.

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Paul says it in Galatians 2 .20, it is not I

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who lives, but it is Christ who lives in me.

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Romans 8 is all about Christ indwelling us by

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the Spirit. And the beauty of it is that He never

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leaves us. He never will forsake us. The Spirit

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is always in us, Christ is always in us, but

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he is speaking, and he is leading, and he is

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guiding, and he is giving us impressions, he's

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giving us instincts, and so the task of the Christian

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is to learn how to live by that life. How do

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we live by the indwelling life of Christ? Right,

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that's the question, and that's the core of discipleship.

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A disciple in the first century was someone who

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was learning how to live by the indwelling life

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of Christ with other believers. It was always

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done in community, not as an individual. So I

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have spent most of my life in ministry teaching

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God's people the discoveries I've made as to

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how to live by the indwelling life of Christ.

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I have a whole course on it, and it comes through

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virtually everything I've written and spoken.

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So it's sort of the... the golden thread that

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runs through everything else, as well as God's

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eternal purpose, which really is connected to

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that as well. Yeah, and, you know, in fact, I'm

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glad you confirmed that, because in getting intimate

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with some of the materials and teachings that

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you've produced, I've really seen that and experienced

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that it is a river that's running through everything.

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And it's one of the most important shifts, I

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believe, that believers will just go to whole

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new levels in their faith and in their living.

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Because I grew up, like many people, with performance

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-based acceptance. You know, if you do good,

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you get good. And in your book, In the Insurgents,

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which was also a wonderful, wonderful work, you

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know, this idea of comparing and contrasting

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or more contrasting libertinism with legalism.

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And, you know, this idea of Well, we can do whatever

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we want because, you know, God is love versus

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this human man -made machine that constricts

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us and puts burdens on us. So, it's just powerful

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and, you know, it's a real blessing that everybody's

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got to dig in to understand the indwelling life

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of Christ and that's... how we live. So it's

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been a great blessing to me and our ministry,

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Frank, just want you to know that and everybody

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dig into the material. All right. So and, you

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know, it leads me to understand and kind of think

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about this most current work that that you've

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produced, which is a massive undertaking. The

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depth of the writing itself, along with the research

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and. Frank, there's so many footnotes in this

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book. It is just absolutely wonderful for the

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people to want to know how you arrived in your

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thinking. But let's unpack this. The book is

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called The Untold Story of the New Testament

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Church. And again, we're speaking about the revised

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and expanded edition. And could you talk with

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us a little bit about the big idea behind this

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piece? Yes. Yeah, I would love to. And this is

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it has been described as, at least in my book

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catalog, as the masterpiece, you know, kind of

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the crowning work. And just for listeners, it's

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the one that has the white cover and the beautiful,

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elegant brushstrokes on the side. And the forward

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is by Craig Keener. So what this book does, it

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is an experiential guide that unlocks the New

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Testament for God's people. It opens them up

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so they can really understand what the letters

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in the New Testament, there are 21 letters in

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the New Testament, what they're all saying, as

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well as the Gospels in the Book of Acts. The

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best way I can describe this to you would be

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through the words of a woman, a younger woman

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who read the book and wrote a review. Let me

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read it to you. This book is a cinematic thunderbolt

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that grips you from the first chapter and refuses

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to let go. A masterclass in storytelling weaving

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together exceptional historical facts, a relentless

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pace, and current scholarship that pulses with

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urgency. The book doesn't just entertain, it

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challenges, provokes, and ultimately leaves you

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breathless. daring readers to confront the uncomfortable

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truth that we have missed so much when we read

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the New Testament. This book solves the mystery

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by giving you the story, the background, the

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narrative of the New Testament. It's as captivating

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as solidly built on scholarship with thousands

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of credible sources cited for every argument.

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The discussion on Paul's thorn in the flesh is

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worth the price of the book. Craig Keener's Forward

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is the perfect introduction to this marvelous

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work. This is the kind of book that earns instant

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classic status, a thrilling, unmissable triumph

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in biblical studies that's highly readable and

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engaging all the way to the end. And her name

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is Sarah. So what it is, It puts the entire New

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Testament in chronological order, tells it as

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a story, fills in all the historical details

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so that you feel like you're there watching it

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all unfold. And when Paul begins to write his

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letters, you've already read the story behind

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what provoked him to write his letter. you get

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to meet the people he's writing to. You now know

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who the Thessalonians are, who the Galatians

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are. You know where those cities are. You know

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where Paul is when he writes those letters. You

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know what provoked those letters, see? And so

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what it does is it puts you in the story. And

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so now when you begin to read the New Testament

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letters, they open up and everything becomes

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so clear. So that's really the goal of the work.

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and it seems to be doing this for many, many

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Christians. And even though it has lots of footnotes,

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and I had to do that because I wanted readers

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to know where I was getting certain information

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from and where and how I was connecting the dots,

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even though they're footnotes, it's very, very

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easy to read. people don't even have to re look

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at the footnotes unless they have a question

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that comes up where they're saying, you know,

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Frank, where'd you get this from? Or how are

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you connecting these dots? Or what's the basis

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for this? So that's basically what it is in a

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nutshell. Yeah, it's very powerful. When you

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when you speak about this idea of the story.

00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:38.000
Yes. Maybe you can unpack that a little bit in

00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:43.950
terms of what what that means with with Scripture.

00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:47.370
I think maybe some people who may be unfamiliar

00:14:47.370 --> 00:14:51.490
may be thinking you're just retelling events

00:14:51.490 --> 00:14:54.470
or just describing events, whereas, you know,

00:14:54.990 --> 00:14:57.009
when we think about the story, we're thinking,

00:14:57.009 --> 00:15:00.169
you know, more maybe about God's plan or his

00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:03.610
big purposes and how they fit together. So, yeah,

00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:05.309
maybe you could describe a little bit about what

00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:10.720
you mean by the story in Scripture. Yes. Okay,

00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.679
so we're talking about the New Testament because

00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:16.220
that's what the book is dedicated to unveiling.

00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:22.200
The story, capital T, capital S, refers to the

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.980
narrative that emerges when you put Matthew to

00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:28.259
Revelation in chronological order and you fill

00:15:28.259 --> 00:15:31.519
in all the details from first century history

00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.279
and from the epistles to create one cohesive

00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.970
edge of your chair drama. Now this is in contrast

00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:43.570
to traditional Bible guides and traditional Bible

00:15:43.570 --> 00:15:47.289
studies Traditional Bible guides and Bible studies

00:15:47.289 --> 00:15:50.409
do not give you the whole narrative in chronological

00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:54.210
order Even chronological Bibles don't give you

00:15:54.210 --> 00:15:56.190
the narrative. All they do is they rearrange

00:15:56.190 --> 00:15:59.370
the books of the Bible They also happen to disagree

00:15:59.370 --> 00:16:02.539
with each other on the timeline By contrast,

00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.820
what my book does is it gives readers the entire

00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:08.600
story in chronological order, but with all the

00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.899
details filled in. So let me be specific. Luke,

00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.539
who wrote the book of Acts, he gives us about

00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:19.679
the first 32 years of the early church's life,

00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.519
right? From Pentecost to Paul's arrest in Rome.

00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.519
But he doesn't give the entire story of those

00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.940
years. And let me tell you why. Number one, he

00:16:28.940 --> 00:16:31.340
compresses his entire narrative and he leaves

00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:34.919
a great deal out. So we have a lot of the information

00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.139
concerning what Luke left out of the Book of

00:16:38.139 --> 00:16:41.919
Acts. We have it in Paul's epistles. Paul mentions

00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.080
things that Luke leaves out. So does the Book

00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:47.879
of James. All right. The second thing is Luke

00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.919
ends his narrative in the Book of Acts with Paul

00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.379
on house arrest in Rome. Well, Paul wrote a number

00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:57.639
of letters after that time. And also the letters

00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.240
of Jude, Hebrews, Peter, John, and the book of

00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.480
Revelation were all written after the record

00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:05.480
in the book of Acts. So what my book does, Steve,

00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:09.519
is it puts the reader in the story. It fills

00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.500
in all the details that Luke leaves out of his

00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:15.440
narrative. It fills them in from first century

00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.779
church history, from up -to -date scholarship,

00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:21.200
and also from the epistles, the little things

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:24.250
that... Paul mentions in his epistles that Luke

00:17:24.250 --> 00:17:26.829
leaves out, it puts it all together. And what

00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:30.849
you have is one high octane cohesive story that

00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:33.329
is supported by the best scholarship in the world.

00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:36.529
And the greatest scholar, New Testament scholar

00:17:36.529 --> 00:17:39.789
of all time, Craig Keener, I was honored when

00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:42.470
he wrote the foreword to the book, but he's also

00:17:42.470 --> 00:17:46.349
a charismatic too. This does not leave anything

00:17:46.349 --> 00:17:48.690
out, you know, you have all the miracles, all

00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.789
the healings, but it's in context. And you also

00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:54.670
see that it comes in seasons, because when you

00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:58.269
put it all together, wonderful things emerge

00:17:58.269 --> 00:18:00.890
that you miss when you're just reading chapters

00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:04.430
and verses. So what the perspective of the book

00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:09.170
does is it gives readers this this lens by which

00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:12.490
to read the New Testament and understand it in

00:18:12.490 --> 00:18:15.569
fresh and powerful ways that goes way beyond

00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:19.450
traditional Bible reference books. It gives us

00:18:19.450 --> 00:18:23.509
the story. T, S, capital T, capital S. That's

00:18:23.509 --> 00:18:25.750
what the story is. The whole thing put together,

00:18:25.950 --> 00:18:28.910
unfolded chronologically. It's powerful. And,

00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:31.890
you know, was there a moment maybe in your life

00:18:31.890 --> 00:18:35.549
or during your growth in Christ and your research

00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:40.400
that that you realize that the average Christian

00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.099
is growing with a fragmented view of Scripture.

00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.259
We learn a little bit here, a little bit there,

00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.319
we mix it together, and we don't necessarily

00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.089
put the pieces together properly. Was there like

00:18:55.089 --> 00:18:58.289
an aha moment for you when you realized that,

00:18:58.329 --> 00:19:01.029
wow, there's a great need for our generation

00:19:01.029 --> 00:19:05.029
to recover the meta narrative or the story of

00:19:05.029 --> 00:19:08.930
the New Testament? It was actually, for me, progressive.

00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:12.730
It wasn't a thunderbolt moment. It was progressive.

00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:16.250
And it goes back to my early Christian upbringing.

00:19:17.349 --> 00:19:20.799
I remember A little white book came into my hands.

00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:24.039
I don't remember the name of it. I don't remember

00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:26.839
the author, but it was a little white book. And

00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:32.160
what it did, Steve, is it went through the Book

00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.000
of Acts and then it stated where Paul wrote his

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.900
various letters in the Acts narrative. And I

00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:42.460
found it fascinating. And so that kind of opened

00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:45.700
up a door to lead me on a journey to try to put

00:19:45.700 --> 00:19:49.039
it all together. You know, when did Paul write

00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.220
his letters in the narrative, within the narrative

00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.859
that Luke tells in the Book of Acts? Now, the

00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:58.579
average Christian is not aware of this, but the

00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:00.960
New Testament letters are not in chronological

00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.799
order. Romans, which is the first epistle, was

00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:11.779
not the first letter that Paul wrote. Not even

00:20:11.779 --> 00:20:16.680
close. But if you're just reading the New Testament

00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.500
like you would any other book, you read the Gospels,

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.400
then you come to the book of Acts, and then you

00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:23.819
see Paul's in Rome in the last chapter of Acts,

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.980
and then what's the next book you read? Romans.

00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.059
So it's basically logical to think, oh, well,

00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:32.640
Paul wrote Romans when he was in Rome. That's

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:34.940
what he did in Acts 28, but that's not true.

00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.440
It came much later, or actually much earlier.

00:20:41.349 --> 00:20:49.069
Anyway, the point of it is that what I began

00:20:49.069 --> 00:20:51.809
to realize, and then when I would listen to preachers

00:20:51.809 --> 00:20:54.990
and teachers, and I began to get a handle on

00:20:54.990 --> 00:20:57.769
context and background and chronology, I began

00:20:57.769 --> 00:21:00.369
to realize that a lot of them were taking things

00:21:00.369 --> 00:21:03.890
out of context, not even realizing it. They were

00:21:03.890 --> 00:21:06.589
taking verses out of context, not even realizing

00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:10.019
it. So it was more of a progressive thing. I

00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.619
have been studying this and looking at it since

00:21:12.619 --> 00:21:16.940
1998, so it's been a long journey. And every

00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:21.480
year I see more and more that helps us piece

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.779
together and reconstruct the first century church

00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:26.940
and the chronology so that we can really get

00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:29.380
insight into all the letters that Paul wrote,

00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:31.519
Peter wrote, James wrote, et cetera, et cetera.

00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.140
And it really makes a big, big difference. And

00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:37.099
so there came a point in time where I said, I

00:21:37.099 --> 00:21:40.180
have to release this. I have to put it all together.

00:21:40.339 --> 00:21:43.559
It took me three solid years to write. I worked

00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.319
on it every day for hours and hours. I missed

00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:50.539
a lot of things, but in 2025, I was able to release

00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:54.759
it. And I thank God for it, and it appears to

00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.759
be bearing a lot of fruit in the body of Christ.

00:21:57.940 --> 00:22:01.640
So I'm thankful for that. You know, we can definitely

00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.980
share from our experiences as we've been trying

00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.940
to help people understand the fuller context

00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:12.359
of interpreting Scripture, because we've got

00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:14.140
a bunch of people that are involved in ministry

00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:16.339
and teaching, listening right now, and a lot

00:22:16.339 --> 00:22:18.500
of times we hear about the need of context, and

00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:21.480
we may have been trained to think context means

00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.880
the few verses around the verse that we're exegeting.

00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.980
And I was challenged one day, with the thought

00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:31.980
of saying, well, what's the context of this verse

00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:36.180
in its pericope and its selection? But what's

00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:38.299
the purpose of that selection in the chapter?

00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.920
What's the purpose of the chapter in the book

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.539
I'm reading? And what's the chapter or the book's

00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:49.180
purpose within the New Testament or the Old Testament?

00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:52.539
And then what's the purpose of the verse in the

00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:55.099
context of the entire Bible? That's right. And

00:22:55.099 --> 00:23:00.200
I realized very quickly I have not done the right

00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:06.779
level of thinking through contextual analysis.

00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:10.680
And you know, you mentioned that we're misinterpreting

00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.019
verses, but the thing that kind of alarmed me

00:23:14.019 --> 00:23:18.119
as I began to see how I was personally, because

00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:19.960
this is, you know, things hit you personally

00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:22.660
before they do hit your ministry. And when I

00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:25.059
was seeing how I was not fully understanding

00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.019
the true meaning of some texts, I was beginning

00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:32.619
to think to myself, how frequently is this happening

00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:38.400
in my life? How many verses have I misunderstood?

00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.279
And so it's been a thrilling journey. And our

00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:44.299
feedback from people when we begin to describe

00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:48.420
the story is the light bulb goes off. You know,

00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.940
the flame of intelligence hits them going, wait

00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:54.859
a minute, this is beginning to get clearer to

00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:59.039
us. that scriptures are actually fitting together

00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.519
and their faith is going to a new level. Have

00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.059
you experienced that or what's some of the feedback

00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:08.700
that people have given you after reading the

00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:11.380
book and getting clarity of the unfolding of

00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.180
the books chronologically? Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.099
Well, it's kind of like you have a flashlight

00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:23.589
now that causes you to throw light on verses

00:24:23.589 --> 00:24:26.309
and chapters that were once pretty dark and you

00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:29.890
didn't even realize that. So a lot of mysteries

00:24:29.890 --> 00:24:34.730
are solved. A lot of obscure texts that, you

00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:38.730
know, scholars debate over ad nauseam become

00:24:38.730 --> 00:24:41.869
very clear when you put it in its historical

00:24:41.869 --> 00:24:44.049
context and you look at the whole thing as a

00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:46.730
flowing narrative chronologically. I'll give

00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:50.220
you an example of how this works. Paul of Tarsus

00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:53.960
wrote 13 letters that survived, and they're part

00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:57.420
of our New Testament. Now, trying to understand

00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:59.579
each one of those letters without the background

00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:03.140
and the context, not just of the books that he

00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:04.940
wrote, the letters that he wrote, but also the

00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:07.839
whole story surrounding it, is like finding a

00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.259
stack of letters that someone wrote to their

00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:16.980
family in the year 1910. So just imagine it.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:21.980
We find these letters. They're all marked 1910.

00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.200
We don't know the sequence, the chronology of

00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.079
when those letters came to be. We have a little

00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:31.140
bit of information as to who they're written

00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:35.839
to, but we have a lot of names mentioned in those

00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.920
letters, but we don't know who those people are.

00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:40.900
We're not connected to the people in 1910. We

00:25:40.900 --> 00:25:42.740
don't know what those people have been through,

00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:45.900
what's happening in their lives. So every reference

00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:49.779
feels like an inside joke to us, but we weren't

00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:53.240
on the inside, right? And so we could read those

00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.339
letters and we can understand some of what's

00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:57.140
said, but we're not going to understand all of

00:25:57.140 --> 00:26:02.079
it. And what's worse is that we can easily misinterpret

00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:07.220
and misapply those letters. because we don't

00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.000
have the context. We don't have the background.

00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:12.339
We don't know who these people are. That happens

00:26:12.339 --> 00:26:14.720
constantly with the New Testament, even from

00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:17.720
notable pastors and Bible teachers. But knowing

00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.019
the story solves the problem. So let me give

00:26:21.019 --> 00:26:23.460
you an illustration. Let's just take the book

00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:27.319
of Galatians, six chapters when chapters were

00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:29.339
added. And by the way, chapters were not added.

00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:32.950
to the Bible until the 1200s. Verses were not

00:26:32.950 --> 00:26:36.170
added until the 1500s. So this is all a modern

00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.509
invention. But to truly understand the letter

00:26:39.509 --> 00:26:42.670
to the Galatians, you have to know, and I have

00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:45.710
to know, who the Galatians were. Where did they

00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:49.970
live? What were their daily lives like? What

00:26:49.970 --> 00:26:52.369
were their specific struggles, the things they

00:26:52.369 --> 00:26:55.890
were facing, all right? Who was Paul referring

00:26:55.890 --> 00:26:58.710
to when he mentions the one who troubles you?

00:26:58.750 --> 00:27:01.170
That's a phrase right out of Galatians. Who's

00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:03.849
he talking about? What happened when Paul and

00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:07.170
Barnabas planted the four churches in Galatia?

00:27:07.630 --> 00:27:10.230
By the way, Galatians was written to four Christian

00:27:10.230 --> 00:27:13.769
communities, four churches. We need to know where

00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:16.970
Paul was when he wrote the letter. When did he

00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:19.650
write it? How old were the churches at the time?

00:27:20.180 --> 00:27:22.880
We need to know what compelled him to write the

00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.559
letter. What provoked the letter? What issue

00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.859
were the Galatians facing that provoked him to

00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:31.000
write it? What happened before he wrote that

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.299
letter? What was he thinking and feeling at the

00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:36.880
moment? And so this is what my book does, Steve,

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:40.480
for every letter in the New Testament. And we

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.740
have the information. We have it. We just have

00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:45.400
to put it together. And that's what this work

00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.180
does. And without that context and without that

00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:52.410
background, none of us can fully understand what

00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:56.690
Paul was articulating in Galatians. So context

00:27:56.690 --> 00:28:00.289
and background is hugely important for us to

00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:03.150
understand the New Testament. And understanding

00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:05.589
the New Testament is hugely important, too. And

00:28:05.589 --> 00:28:10.109
maybe we could talk about why later. But this

00:28:10.109 --> 00:28:13.809
really is the ballgame. So that's why I felt

00:28:14.259 --> 00:28:17.160
the burden to not only do the research for the

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:20.180
book, but to take the time and the energy and

00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:22.980
the blood, sweat, and tears to produce it and

00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:26.160
put it out into the world. Yeah, it's so good.

00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.019
And, you know, I'd like to bring out a little

00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:32.140
bit of a topic about the value of the letters

00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:35.759
right now, because we have seen, at least in

00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.099
the Western Church, that there's often a really

00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:43.309
big focus on Jesus's words in red. in the four

00:28:43.309 --> 00:28:46.789
historical gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and

00:28:46.789 --> 00:28:51.029
John. And it appears that it's a fairly common

00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:55.990
practice to really kind of highlight those four

00:28:55.990 --> 00:29:00.849
historical gospels as the primary source of the

00:29:00.849 --> 00:29:06.170
discipling process. But we look at the New Testament

00:29:06.170 --> 00:29:10.460
and we look at the epistles, the letters. And

00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:13.079
we look at them as establishing tools that Paul

00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:18.220
was utilizing. And sometimes it's further grounding

00:29:18.220 --> 00:29:21.700
people in the message of the gospel. But sometimes,

00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.359
and frequently, most frequently, he was writing

00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:26.900
them to churches. He was writing them to kingdom

00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:30.599
communities. That's right. And so, you know,

00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:34.720
we're kind of championing this idea in our church

00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:38.460
and network that we've got to, again, rethink

00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:43.019
the value of the epistles, because we really

00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:44.940
believe, and I'd like you to maybe talk through

00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:48.539
this a little bit, that we need, not that we

00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:52.980
should have, but we need to sit under Paul's

00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:57.900
teachings and the general epistles, etc., to

00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:02.000
really become well -rounded and rooted, firmly

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:09.250
established disciples. We need it all. What Paul

00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:13.650
does, and he was a chosen vessel of Jesus Christ,

00:30:13.809 --> 00:30:17.230
he was sent to bring the gospel to the Gentiles,

00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:21.930
but he was also sent to unveil what is called

00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:25.789
in Ephesians the eternal purpose. And that's

00:30:25.789 --> 00:30:28.170
the grand narrative of the entire scripture.

00:30:28.269 --> 00:30:30.690
That's what's been beating in God's heart from

00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:34.250
before time. Ephesians and Colossians bring it

00:30:34.250 --> 00:30:36.529
out the clearest as well as the book of Romans.

00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:43.480
And basically, what Paul does is he explains

00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:48.079
what the four gospels were all about. He explains

00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.460
what the ministry of Jesus was all about. He

00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:55.079
explains the implications of the death and resurrection

00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.019
of Christ. See, when you read the gospels, you

00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:01.400
see the historical side of what Jesus did when

00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.910
he died, all right? You see he... He promised

00:31:04.910 --> 00:31:06.869
it would be for the forgiveness and the remission

00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:11.049
of sins. You see the horrendous brutality of

00:31:11.049 --> 00:31:13.289
the crucifixion. You see who the players were

00:31:13.289 --> 00:31:16.369
involved in that crucifixion. But when you look

00:31:16.369 --> 00:31:20.450
at Paul's letters, the revelation that he received

00:31:20.450 --> 00:31:23.170
from God, as well as the information he received

00:31:23.170 --> 00:31:27.670
from Peter and John and James, who told him stories

00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:31.190
about Jesus because they lived with him for three

00:31:31.190 --> 00:31:34.089
and a half years. When you read what Paul says

00:31:34.089 --> 00:31:36.450
about the crucifixion and the resurrection, he

00:31:36.450 --> 00:31:40.349
brings out all of the cosmic dimensions of it,

00:31:40.430 --> 00:31:43.910
how it destroyed principalities and powers, how

00:31:43.910 --> 00:31:47.910
it destroyed and nullified the kingdom of darkness

00:31:47.910 --> 00:31:52.250
and rendered Satan powerless over the believers,

00:31:52.869 --> 00:31:56.089
giving them authority over him and his kingdom.

00:31:56.829 --> 00:31:59.809
You see that it it destroyed the sin nature.

00:32:00.170 --> 00:32:02.970
You see that it destroyed the world system. You

00:32:02.970 --> 00:32:06.650
see that it undid all of the effects of the fall

00:32:06.650 --> 00:32:09.890
of humanity. You don't find that in the gospels.

00:32:10.150 --> 00:32:13.829
You find it in Paul's letters because Paul was

00:32:13.829 --> 00:32:18.630
sent as a special chosen vessel to uncover the

00:32:18.630 --> 00:32:22.509
fullness of the gospel, explain what the ministry

00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:26.349
of Jesus was really all about, and he received

00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:29.859
revelation straight from Christ himself, and

00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:32.140
none of it contradicts the Gospels, it actually

00:32:32.140 --> 00:32:35.220
supplements it and expands it. So it all works

00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:38.579
together, and this is why throughout the centuries,

00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:41.000
the Christians understood that Paul's letters

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.720
were inspired. In fact, even Peter, who was a

00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.099
disciple of Jesus, one of the first followers

00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:51.200
of Jesus, one of the 12, handpicked by Jesus,

00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:55.339
lived with him. day and night for three and a

00:32:55.339 --> 00:32:58.559
half years, watched him sleep, watched him eat,

00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:02.740
watched him answer hot boiling questions, watched

00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:06.660
him get crucified. Peter, and saw the resurrected

00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:09.440
Christ, Peter actually says that Paul's epistles

00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.759
are scripture. They're inspired. That's a statement

00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.180
out of one of his letters, which is fascinating.

00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:20.539
So if a Christian only focuses on the red letters,

00:33:20.579 --> 00:33:24.059
so to speak, They will not understand what the

00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:26.420
mission of Jesus was all about. They will not

00:33:26.420 --> 00:33:29.119
understand the implications of the ministry of

00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.799
Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection.

00:33:32.779 --> 00:33:39.420
There will be a very lopsided Christian and a

00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:42.000
disciple of Jesus that has a very fundamental,

00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.799
very basic knowledge. we have to look at the

00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:47.940
whole scripture together, including the Book

00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:51.599
of Revelation, as mysterious as it is. That's

00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:54.279
part of Holy Writ. It's part of the canon of

00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:58.759
scripture. So it all works together. So we're

00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:03.799
really not speaking about a history lesson in

00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:08.019
your book. We're really talking about recovering

00:34:08.019 --> 00:34:12.619
and understanding in some ways of defining or

00:34:12.619 --> 00:34:15.880
living out the Great Commission. Because, you

00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.440
know, it says in Matthew 20, 28, in verse 19,

00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.960
he says, you know, go there for, right, Jesus

00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.460
is speaking, he says, go there for and make disciples.

00:34:27.139 --> 00:34:30.380
And so there's this idea of enrolling as a pupil,

00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.139
that we're becoming into a place where a convert

00:34:33.139 --> 00:34:35.840
is created, but a disciple is somebody who's

00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.500
going to, you know, learn from. And so if we're

00:34:39.500 --> 00:34:44.900
only learning fragmented pieces, of His teaching,

00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:49.559
we're actually not fulfilling the mandate of

00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:51.519
the Great Commission. I mean, this is major.

00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.159
So, you know, and then we're baptizing, right,

00:34:55.219 --> 00:34:57.239
coming under the authority of the Father, Son,

00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.019
and Holy Spirit. But verse 20 really unpacked

00:35:00.019 --> 00:35:01.739
something powerful. He says, teaching them to

00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:06.079
observe all things that I have commanded you.

00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:11.019
And so, we really can't fulfill the Great Commission

00:35:11.019 --> 00:35:16.719
if we don't have a clear understanding of what

00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:19.119
the Scripture's teaching in the New Testament

00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:23.039
if we're out of balance, if we have fragmentation,

00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:26.219
and we don't understand the purpose and the intention

00:35:26.219 --> 00:35:30.219
and the teaching of the letters. So, I mean,

00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:33.360
this is major because this ultimately comes down

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:39.389
to how well Am I following Jesus? So, you know,

00:35:39.429 --> 00:35:44.210
let me ask you, Frank. So, you know, what maybe,

00:35:44.809 --> 00:35:47.610
after all the work and research and insight you

00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:51.369
have about this, how did maybe the early church

00:35:51.369 --> 00:35:55.530
or the early disciples, you know, how did they

00:35:55.530 --> 00:35:57.809
understand what it meant by following Jesus?

00:35:57.929 --> 00:36:02.489
By by having fresh perspective and being so close

00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:04.530
to the teachings of Paul that they knew were

00:36:04.530 --> 00:36:08.690
inspired? Well, in the first century, a disciple

00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:13.429
and a disciple -making was not a program. Today,

00:36:13.469 --> 00:36:16.710
it's basically been reduced to a program, you

00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:18.949
know, and that program could be very informal,

00:36:18.949 --> 00:36:21.710
like, okay, let's now read the Bible together

00:36:21.710 --> 00:36:23.989
and let's memorize these verses and now you confess

00:36:23.989 --> 00:36:26.849
your sins to me and let me give you another lesson.

00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:30.989
pretty much what discipleship is today. Now,

00:36:30.989 --> 00:36:33.389
in the first century, and the story makes this

00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:35.550
clear when you put it all together, there was

00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:38.110
no distinction, Steve, between a convert and

00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:41.110
a disciple. They were the same. In other words,

00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:43.909
you couldn't be a convert and then say, well,

00:36:43.989 --> 00:36:46.449
this discipleship thing, you know, that's optional.

00:36:46.449 --> 00:36:48.690
I really don't want to take that. But I definitely

00:36:48.690 --> 00:36:50.329
want to go to heaven and I want to have eternal

00:36:50.329 --> 00:36:53.550
life. So I'm going to be a convert. There was

00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:58.630
no such separation. You were a convert. You were

00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:02.989
a disciple, all right? And that's why the believers,

00:37:03.869 --> 00:37:06.070
the Jesus followers, all of them were called

00:37:06.070 --> 00:37:09.969
disciples, right? Disciple was not a word that

00:37:09.969 --> 00:37:13.550
just meant that you were part of the 12. All

00:37:13.550 --> 00:37:15.710
the believers, if you read the book of Acts carefully,

00:37:16.510 --> 00:37:19.800
every time a person was baptized, They surrendered

00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.800
their life to the lordship of Jesus Christ. They

00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.579
came into the kingdom of God through baptism

00:37:25.579 --> 00:37:28.619
They broke the loyalty oath to Caesar and the

00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:31.639
world system. They entered into a new creation

00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:35.000
They were part of this new community But where

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.659
there was no Jew or Gentile where there was no

00:37:37.659 --> 00:37:40.599
slave or free where there was no rich or poor

00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:44.239
They saw each other as family They all had the

00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.699
same life together the divine life that was given

00:37:46.699 --> 00:37:49.909
to them by the Spirit of God They were disciples.

00:37:50.050 --> 00:37:52.469
They were followers. They were pupils. They were

00:37:52.469 --> 00:37:56.329
learning to follow Jesus. Now, what a disciple

00:37:56.329 --> 00:38:00.710
was in the first century is if Jesus was walking

00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:04.230
on the earth and he had more disciples than the

00:38:04.230 --> 00:38:07.429
twelve, obviously he had about seven women who

00:38:07.429 --> 00:38:09.969
followed him constantly all the way to the end.

00:38:10.429 --> 00:38:13.170
They were disciples also. They were his female

00:38:13.170 --> 00:38:16.050
disciples. But then he had many others beyond

00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:18.780
the twelve. He even had seventy. but he sent

00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:24.579
out in Luke chapter 10. They were literally following

00:38:24.579 --> 00:38:26.519
him, Steve. They were literally following him.

00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:30.000
A disciple is a follower. So if he walked to

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.500
Galilee, guess what? They followed him to Galilee.

00:38:33.340 --> 00:38:35.739
If he walked to Jerusalem, they followed him

00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:40.019
to Jerusalem. And they were seeking to imitate

00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:44.099
him too, right? Now, here's the thing. When he

00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:47.280
ascended into heaven after his crucifixion and

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:51.599
his burial, He descended in the Spirit. He returned,

00:38:51.699 --> 00:38:56.039
just as he said he would. In John 14, 15, and

00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.480
16, he says, I'm going to go for a little while,

00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.699
but I will come back. And then he switches and

00:39:01.699 --> 00:39:04.179
says, the Spirit will come. I have to go first

00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:06.840
so the Spirit comes. But then he says, I will

00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.420
come back. I will return. Well, he was saying,

00:39:10.539 --> 00:39:15.519
I am going to return in the Spirit, which made

00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.780
him omnipresent. So he could be living in me,

00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:21.340
I'm in Florida right now, and he can be living

00:39:21.340 --> 00:39:24.739
in you. I'm assuming you're in Jersey or somewhere

00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:28.460
up north, wherever you are. He could be living

00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.719
in you at the same time because he's in the spirit

00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:34.940
now and he's in us. But the way we follow him

00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:37.840
is exactly the same. Only we can't see him with

00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:43.159
physical eyes. So when he moves, we follow him.

00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.639
And not only that, but we're not really imitating

00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:50.079
him, we're incarnating him, because he's giving

00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.840
us his life. And so as we live by his life, we

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.679
become like him. And the more we live by his

00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.400
life, his indwelling life, that divine life that

00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:05.139
is in us, Christ in us, the hope of glory, the

00:40:05.139 --> 00:40:07.579
more we live by his life, the more that life

00:40:07.579 --> 00:40:10.519
takes over our character, and the more we become

00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:16.590
like him. Discipleship really is very different

00:40:16.590 --> 00:40:19.750
in the mind of God and in the practice of the

00:40:19.750 --> 00:40:21.730
first century Christians than what most people

00:40:21.730 --> 00:40:28.469
know it today. And in order for us to be transformed

00:40:28.469 --> 00:40:31.510
by the written Word of God, which is one of the

00:40:31.510 --> 00:40:34.989
ingredients by which God the Holy Spirit transforms

00:40:34.989 --> 00:40:38.269
us, we have to understand it. Because if you

00:40:38.269 --> 00:40:40.889
don't understand, what you're reading in the

00:40:40.889 --> 00:40:43.130
written Word of God, it's not going to transform

00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:47.429
you. And worse, you'll end up misapplying it

00:40:47.429 --> 00:40:49.909
and misinterpreting it, which happens a lot.

00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:52.570
And this is why we have 40 ,000 plus denominations

00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:56.769
today in Protestant Christianity, because we

00:40:56.769 --> 00:40:58.989
have all been conditioned to read the Bible through

00:40:58.989 --> 00:41:03.570
the lens of chapter and verses outside its historical

00:41:03.570 --> 00:41:07.289
context, not knowing the background, not knowing

00:41:07.289 --> 00:41:10.900
the chronology. That's why I wrote this book,

00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:14.360
is to give God's people the story, the chronology,

00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:17.659
the background, the context. So that A, they

00:41:17.659 --> 00:41:20.420
can understand what they're reading, really understand

00:41:20.420 --> 00:41:24.059
it in a powerful and fresh way, which then B

00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:27.599
leads to what? Transformation. And as you were

00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.579
saying, what the real meaning of a disciples

00:41:30.579 --> 00:41:34.900
is. a follower of Jesus Christ today who lives

00:41:34.900 --> 00:41:37.119
in us by the Spirit. We can follow him today.

00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:40.179
Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons

00:41:40.179 --> 00:41:43.219
of God, Romans 8. That's what a follower of Jesus

00:41:43.219 --> 00:41:46.940
is. It's powerful. So we have to learn from him

00:41:46.940 --> 00:41:50.460
in order to follow him. And then as we follow

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:57.260
him, we're actually growing more and more living

00:41:57.260 --> 00:42:02.360
out his image in our soul. You know, even though

00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:07.739
we are born again in a moment, there is a process

00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:11.380
that we all need to understand. And that process

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:15.059
is forming us and renewing our minds. And it's

00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:18.400
so, so vital that I just want to really highlight

00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:23.500
each of us needs to have a passion for truth.

00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:28.400
And Jesus is truth and learning this and investing

00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.519
time in a book like this. is going to be life

00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.579
changing because it's about getting at truth.

00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.059
And one of the things that I love is that it's

00:42:37.059 --> 00:42:44.039
equipping believers to be exposed to the history

00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:48.539
that's helping us to preserve what actually happened

00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:52.139
and why. And so, you know, a lot of times I think

00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:56.440
people really rush to bulleted points of facts

00:42:56.440 --> 00:43:00.380
and data and information. and we really need

00:43:00.380 --> 00:43:02.940
to reclaim the idea that you're speaking about.

00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.239
Yeah, but we're actually walking with Him. We're

00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:11.300
actually relating to someone. Christianity is

00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:16.860
not a following of a list of teachings. Like

00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:20.340
you said, it's actually God's life being lived

00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:24.039
through us. So I almost look at it like when

00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:27.780
we're saved and we have the deposit of the Holy

00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:32.099
Spirit within us, the more truth that I am receiving

00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:36.659
and growing in, the more fully God is being revealed

00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:41.980
through me. I don't think it's just a mental,

00:43:42.019 --> 00:43:45.599
intellectual exercise that, great, now I know

00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:48.880
more so I can do more. I think it's actually

00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:52.039
more of a revelatory, if I can use that word,

00:43:52.539 --> 00:43:55.960
of saying, wow, I never knew that about God.

00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:59.360
That's who's living in me. Oh, that's who wants

00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.659
to live through me. Oh, I agree with that. So

00:44:02.659 --> 00:44:06.659
it's a it's a it's a powerful process. Now, I'd

00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:09.039
like to talk a little bit about the church for

00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:12.500
a moment, because our our experience of following

00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:16.820
Jesus is, especially in America, is really about

00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:20.260
an individualistic view. Right. Following Jesus

00:44:20.260 --> 00:44:22.460
is a very personal thing. And of course, it is

00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:26.670
starts there. But. When I read Paul's letters

00:44:26.670 --> 00:44:31.010
and all of the New Testament, I can't get away

00:44:31.010 --> 00:44:35.889
from the reality of this idea that Christ was

00:44:35.889 --> 00:44:39.889
going to and is building his church. And this

00:44:39.889 --> 00:44:43.250
idea of the ecclesia, the called out ones, this

00:44:43.250 --> 00:44:47.010
idea that there's a new people, a holy people

00:44:47.010 --> 00:44:51.659
being formed. And there's a great book entitled

00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:54.519
How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth by Gordon

00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:59.340
Fee and Douglas Stewart. And they describe this

00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:03.000
idea of looking at church history, and they unveil

00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.340
this pattern of this idea that the gospel went

00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:09.480
out and individual followers, disciples were

00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:13.139
made. But then we see a movement that churches

00:45:13.139 --> 00:45:16.710
were formed. And then the the message of the

00:45:16.710 --> 00:45:19.449
gospel expanded and more disciples were made

00:45:19.449 --> 00:45:22.989
and more churches were formed. And so, this is

00:45:22.989 --> 00:45:27.230
something that's really very central to our network

00:45:27.230 --> 00:45:29.809
and to Faith and Mission and the Gospel Mission

00:45:29.809 --> 00:45:34.550
Network, that we want to reclaim the centrality

00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:39.269
of God's plan through His church as part of normal

00:45:39.269 --> 00:45:43.349
discipling. That we're not just following Jesus

00:45:43.349 --> 00:45:47.079
as separate individuals, but that we're actually

00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:52.260
grafted into this divine community that Jesus

00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:55.760
is the head of, and we become part of this one

00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:59.480
new man, this body. So can you talk with us a

00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:04.420
little bit about this shift that we've got to

00:46:04.420 --> 00:46:06.760
reclaim, and maybe how your book really will

00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:10.559
help us get at it, that it's speaking about a

00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.739
people. not just personal devotions for coffee

00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:16.619
in the morning for 15 minutes. It's speaking

00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:21.800
about life lived with Christ, but lived in community

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.860
with others in a very intimate and meaningful

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:29.079
way. Yes. Well, that's a great way to put it.

00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:33.179
One thing you are immediately struck with when

00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:36.280
you read the story of the first century church

00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.500
and you put it all together as the book does.

00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:44.659
you're struck by the fact that when the gospel

00:46:44.659 --> 00:46:49.039
is preached, and primarily it's preached by apostolic

00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:52.880
workers who are called, sent, called, trained,

00:46:53.139 --> 00:46:55.900
and sent, right? They go out and they bring the

00:46:55.900 --> 00:46:59.039
gospel first to the Judean world, the world of

00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:02.159
the Jewish people. It's to the Jew first, and

00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:07.380
then Paul of Tarsus mainly brings it to the Gentile

00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:11.110
world. You and I are Gentiles so thank God for

00:47:11.110 --> 00:47:13.530
Paul Tarsus and the Christian workers that he

00:47:13.530 --> 00:47:17.829
trained and he worked with so When the gospel

00:47:17.829 --> 00:47:20.510
is preached in the first century the whole goal

00:47:20.510 --> 00:47:24.789
was not to get individual Lost people saved so

00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:30.909
they can go to heaven the whole goal was to Raise

00:47:30.909 --> 00:47:35.889
up and give birth to a community of disciples

00:47:35.889 --> 00:47:39.849
that have life together in a local area If you

00:47:39.849 --> 00:47:43.849
remember when Jesus called the 12, he didn't

00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:47.610
work with those 12 disciples as individuals.

00:47:48.449 --> 00:47:52.570
They lived together with him. They all ate together.

00:47:52.670 --> 00:47:55.750
They slept together. They had life together for

00:47:55.750 --> 00:47:58.590
three and a half years. And there were women

00:47:58.590 --> 00:48:00.489
who were part of that community too. There were

00:48:00.489 --> 00:48:03.050
about seven of them. And we know many of their

00:48:03.050 --> 00:48:06.010
names. They're mentioned. In fact, when Luke

00:48:06.010 --> 00:48:09.550
describes them, He calls them the women. That's

00:48:09.550 --> 00:48:12.849
his shorthand. He has a shorthand for the 12

00:48:12.849 --> 00:48:15.909
disciples. He calls them the 12. Then he mentions

00:48:15.909 --> 00:48:19.269
the women, the 12 and the women. That was that

00:48:19.269 --> 00:48:24.070
community of the king that Jesus raised up. It

00:48:24.070 --> 00:48:27.050
was the embryonic expression of the church, the

00:48:27.050 --> 00:48:31.110
ecclesia. Well, when he rose again from the dead

00:48:31.110 --> 00:48:34.389
and he descended in the spirit and the gospel

00:48:34.389 --> 00:48:38.380
was preached, When a convert was made, they were

00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:40.679
immediately a disciple, a pupil of Jesus Christ,

00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.139
a follower. The Spirit came into them, and that

00:48:44.139 --> 00:48:46.500
Spirit drew them together with others who had

00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:49.460
the same Spirit. It was like a magnet. They came

00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:51.599
together. You find this in the early parts of

00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:54.920
the Book of Acts. It says, they received the

00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:57.199
Spirit, and immediately, what did they do? They

00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.500
met. M -H -T, they met, they gathered. And that's

00:49:00.500 --> 00:49:02.659
what the word ecclesia means. It means a meeting,

00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:06.679
a gathering, an assembly. And so, They did life

00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.000
together. You see it all throughout the book

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.360
of Acts. You see it in the Judean churches. You

00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:14.960
see it in the Gentile churches. They were this

00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:19.219
close -knit family. And that is what God has

00:49:19.219 --> 00:49:21.219
wanted from the beginning. You see, and what

00:49:21.219 --> 00:49:25.380
that is, Steve, it is the expansion of the fellowship

00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:28.980
of the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit have

00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:33.300
had community for eternity. And the Godhead was

00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:38.159
so full of love, that it spilled over, and they

00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.500
wanted to extend that fellowship, that love relationship

00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:44.159
they had between Father, Son, through the Spirit,

00:49:44.579 --> 00:49:47.880
and they wanted to extend it to a creation not

00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:49.860
yet created, and that's what provoked God to

00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:52.300
create. He wanted to have a family. He wanted

00:49:52.300 --> 00:49:56.099
to have kids. He wanted to have, he wanted to

00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:59.420
have more sons than his only begotten. And so

00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:03.579
when Jesus rose again from the dead, and he breathed

00:50:03.579 --> 00:50:07.300
his spirit into those first followers, the 12

00:50:07.300 --> 00:50:11.599
and John 20, the only begotten son became the

00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:14.940
firstborn among many brothers and sisters. That's

00:50:14.940 --> 00:50:19.500
God's intention. So, in the first century, church,

00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:23.280
the Greek word is ecclesia, was not two hours

00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:27.929
on Sunday morning. It was not a ritual. It was

00:50:27.929 --> 00:50:30.909
not a religious service. That's not to say that

00:50:30.909 --> 00:50:33.090
religious services are bad I'm not saying that

00:50:33.090 --> 00:50:34.929
I'm not saying that two hours on Sunday morning

00:50:34.929 --> 00:50:37.489
is bad. That's not what I'm saying. You asked

00:50:37.489 --> 00:50:40.670
me about the early church You asked me about

00:50:40.670 --> 00:50:43.949
the first century church. It was more than once

00:50:43.949 --> 00:50:47.329
a week for two hours they had a life together

00:50:47.329 --> 00:50:50.809
and they lived in community they live close together

00:50:50.809 --> 00:50:55.639
and They knew each other And they did things

00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:58.860
together, you know? And it was like an extended

00:50:58.860 --> 00:51:03.619
household, basically. And the most common metaphor

00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:09.119
used for the church in the first century is that

00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.599
of the family. You're born again. You become

00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:17.639
an infant. You have brothers and sisters. It's

00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.760
the household of God. It's the family of God.

00:51:20.860 --> 00:51:23.539
He's our Father. Jesus is our elder brother.

00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:27.360
It's all images of family, brothers and sisters

00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:30.719
are constantly used. And in that day, it was

00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.119
radical because Jews and Gentiles hated each

00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.300
other from birth. Yeah, I mean, it's a deep seated

00:51:37.300 --> 00:51:42.280
hatred. Now we have racism in our country. We

00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:45.400
both live in America. There's there's racism,

00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.940
you know, against various races. They're taught

00:51:48.940 --> 00:51:51.440
to hate one another from early on early age.

00:51:51.579 --> 00:51:54.590
Well, If you want to compare that to the hatred

00:51:54.590 --> 00:51:57.769
between a Jew and a Gentile, you'd have to raise

00:51:57.769 --> 00:52:01.329
it to the 50th power because the hatred and the

00:52:01.329 --> 00:52:04.289
enmity between Jew and Gentile was even greater

00:52:04.289 --> 00:52:08.510
by far. And yet, in the first century, you had

00:52:08.510 --> 00:52:12.250
Jews and Gentiles by nature, by nationality,

00:52:12.269 --> 00:52:15.949
loving each other, marrying each other, burying

00:52:15.949 --> 00:52:18.130
each other, calling each other brother and sister.

00:52:18.309 --> 00:52:22.639
It was unbelievable. And that's what the life

00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:28.800
of Jesus Christ does. So it's very different

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.099
from what it was in the first century. Now, what

00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:36.000
it takes for today to see that happen is people

00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.960
who really are willing to kind of give up the

00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:44.000
Western lifestyle, which is just constant busyness,

00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:48.059
to really have time for community. And that's

00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:51.170
a hard... That's a hard sell for many Americans,

00:52:51.429 --> 00:52:55.570
for example. And there are seasons where there

00:52:55.570 --> 00:52:59.170
was a lot of interest in that over the years.

00:53:00.369 --> 00:53:04.190
Right now, we're living in a season where it's

00:53:04.190 --> 00:53:06.070
not as strong as it was, but I believe a day

00:53:06.070 --> 00:53:09.130
will come where it will be. But I think if people

00:53:09.130 --> 00:53:12.300
will read the book... not just for that reason,

00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:14.880
but as they're reading it to understand the New

00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:18.000
Testament so that it can transform them, they'll

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.059
also get a glimpse of how the early Christians

00:53:20.059 --> 00:53:22.260
gathered together and what church meant for them.

00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.800
That's very, very powerful. And you know, this

00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:28.900
idea of, and I'll just share this because I had

00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:32.480
to, maybe this will encourage especially my fellow

00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:36.260
church leaders that I had to repent at one point

00:53:36.260 --> 00:53:41.179
because I would speak to the idea of church being

00:53:41.179 --> 00:53:51.219
a family as almost an idea, rather than a reality

00:53:51.219 --> 00:53:54.880
that we live out in community together. And,

00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:58.400
you know, when Paul speaks about this vision

00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:03.320
in chapter two of Ephesians, which is such a

00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:05.639
masterful work concerning the mission and the

00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:07.940
identity of the church. You know, he describes

00:54:07.940 --> 00:54:12.320
in chapter two that, you know, we're part of

00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:16.280
the household of God. We're members. We're fitted

00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:20.239
together. We're a dwelling place of God in the

00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:23.519
Spirit. And it's so powerful when we discover

00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:28.179
that he doesn't dwell in the temples made by

00:54:28.179 --> 00:54:33.880
hands, but he's literally able to manifest himself,

00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:39.059
his presence, his love through that divine community.

00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:41.900
And so even when we're celebrating and in our

00:54:41.900 --> 00:54:45.880
network, we have what we'll call traditional

00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:48.739
community churches, and we also are developing

00:54:48.739 --> 00:54:51.699
a network of house churches. And we see that

00:54:51.699 --> 00:54:55.260
when we come together celebrating even the Lord's

00:54:55.260 --> 00:55:01.550
Supper around a meal in an unrushed way. and

00:55:01.550 --> 00:55:05.090
actually dining together. And what we kind of

00:55:05.090 --> 00:55:07.449
share with folks is we're dining with Christ

00:55:07.449 --> 00:55:15.130
and each other. And we're doing it in this fellowship,

00:55:15.389 --> 00:55:18.429
right? So there's this, you know, a lot of people

00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:20.369
will say, well, I could read the Bible at home

00:55:20.369 --> 00:55:24.829
and pray to God that we can do that. But my goodness,

00:55:24.869 --> 00:55:30.469
we're missing so much. We have had so many people

00:55:30.469 --> 00:55:33.829
at first say, hey, I don't know if I understand

00:55:33.829 --> 00:55:37.349
doing communion this way or living this way until

00:55:37.349 --> 00:55:41.929
they taste and see. And as soon as they taste

00:55:41.929 --> 00:55:47.789
and see, we've had people during the meal in

00:55:47.789 --> 00:55:52.789
the gathering communion just break down in tears

00:55:52.789 --> 00:56:00.059
and nobody was giving an altar call. It was something

00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:04.340
that could only have been done by God in the

00:56:04.340 --> 00:56:08.320
midst of His assembly. And, you know, even Paul

00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:11.539
in Ephesians chapter 3, when you were speaking

00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:15.820
about, you know, the divine purposes, you know,

00:56:15.820 --> 00:56:19.659
that text in chapter 3, he speaks about this

00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:24.800
administration of the mystery. That's right.

00:56:25.300 --> 00:56:29.199
And, you know, that word administration is translated

00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:33.179
a bit differently in some manuscripts or some

00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:36.059
versions of the Bible. But the Greek word there

00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:39.619
is oikonomos. It's what's the house law? How

00:56:39.619 --> 00:56:44.039
does the household operate? What's the, in German,

00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:48.059
the hostafel, right? How does the community live

00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:52.449
together? And so we can't look at the letters

00:56:52.449 --> 00:56:55.690
in the epistles and the unfolding of the history

00:56:55.690 --> 00:56:59.090
of Acts in the epistles without seeing the centrality

00:56:59.090 --> 00:57:02.969
of this idea that Christ is dwelling in the midst

00:57:02.969 --> 00:57:06.170
of His people. So, guys, you know, you who are

00:57:06.170 --> 00:57:09.309
listening to this right now, what Frank is sharing,

00:57:09.929 --> 00:57:12.710
it has a ripple effect. It's going to have a

00:57:12.710 --> 00:57:16.989
ripple effect in your life personally through

00:57:16.989 --> 00:57:20.989
your individual families into your ministries.

00:57:21.389 --> 00:57:24.829
And guys, it's going to overflow there into the

00:57:24.829 --> 00:57:28.050
world because how is the world, how are people

00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:30.650
who have not yet tasted and seen the goodness

00:57:30.650 --> 00:57:34.909
and the love through the community of God, how

00:57:34.909 --> 00:57:39.469
are they going to be attracted to a father when

00:57:39.469 --> 00:57:43.230
all they see are orphans? And so now, Frank,

00:57:43.429 --> 00:57:44.869
I'm saying this, I know you didn't say this,

00:57:44.909 --> 00:57:48.070
but I'm going to say it that a lot of times I

00:57:48.070 --> 00:57:51.269
kind of call it like fire insurance preaching

00:57:51.269 --> 00:57:57.590
to orphan Christians. It's like, you know, answer

00:57:57.590 --> 00:58:00.289
an altar call quickly so you don't go to hell

00:58:00.289 --> 00:58:03.409
and go to try to figure out the rest of it on

00:58:03.409 --> 00:58:07.710
your own. And we just got to we've just got to

00:58:07.710 --> 00:58:10.809
realize that that's not the heart of the one

00:58:10.809 --> 00:58:14.969
that we cry out Abba father now. So this this

00:58:14.969 --> 00:58:19.599
book is going to, I think, put some seminal ideas

00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:24.739
and cause a movement inside of people's hearts

00:58:24.739 --> 00:58:28.659
that is probably going to be a lot more significant

00:58:28.659 --> 00:58:34.199
than when they started with chapter one. So let

00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:38.630
me ask you this as we're beginning to... uh come

00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:41.530
to this understanding about leadership in the

00:58:41.530 --> 00:58:43.809
church now so we've described some things about

00:58:43.809 --> 00:58:46.650
the the believer we've we've described some things

00:58:46.650 --> 00:58:49.010
about the divine community called the church

00:58:49.010 --> 00:58:52.190
but you know we have to talk about this idea

00:58:52.190 --> 00:58:56.329
that that god is really looking for serious leaders

00:58:56.329 --> 00:59:00.449
who can serve his vision so i'd love to get maybe

00:59:00.449 --> 00:59:06.150
from your perspective um what is maybe uh one

00:59:06.150 --> 00:59:13.570
or two of the top leadership impacts or takeaways

00:59:13.570 --> 00:59:18.929
that leaders are going to walk away with by reading

00:59:18.929 --> 00:59:23.090
by reading and studying this book. Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:23.750 --> 00:59:27.269
Well, we really need two full hours to adequately

00:59:27.269 --> 00:59:29.889
cover that topic because there are a lot of takeaways.

00:59:30.769 --> 00:59:34.010
In fact, I'll just mention this that I talk a

00:59:34.010 --> 00:59:36.980
lot. about the takeaways that you're going to

00:59:36.980 --> 00:59:39.840
find in the story, the untold story of the New

00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:42.820
Testament church revised and expanded in another

00:59:42.820 --> 00:59:46.340
book that I released recently called 48 laws

00:59:46.340 --> 00:59:50.260
of spiritual power, 48 laws, the number four,

00:59:50.300 --> 00:59:53.079
the number eight laws of spiritual power. And

00:59:53.079 --> 01:00:00.019
people can go to 48laws .com, the number four,

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:04.440
eight, the actual numbers. then law is all one

01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:13.039
word. But one takeaway has to do with the power

01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:16.780
and the principle of co -working. Co -working,

01:00:16.900 --> 01:00:24.340
which is a lost art today. And did I say that

01:00:24.340 --> 01:00:28.320
clearly, co -working, Steve? Definitely, yes.

01:00:28.539 --> 01:00:32.840
Okay, all right. Co -working. Most men in ministry

01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:36.599
today do not want to co -work with anyone. They

01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:40.980
want to be Han Solo, flying solo alone on their

01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:45.380
own, okay? That's not good for them or for the

01:00:45.380 --> 01:00:49.159
body of Christ. Co -working is written in the

01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:51.639
DNA of God's work. It's in the bloodstream of

01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.659
the kingdom of God. And as you read the story,

01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:57.800
beginning with the disciples that Jesus called

01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:01.800
out, you are confronted with the fact that there

01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:06.320
was co -working embedded in that group of 12.

01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:09.500
When they're mentioned, they're mentioned in

01:01:09.500 --> 01:01:13.000
pairs. Then when Jesus sends out the 70, what

01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:16.139
does he do? He sends them out in pairs. So you

01:01:16.139 --> 01:01:20.500
have co -working in that first follower band

01:01:20.500 --> 01:01:25.019
of Christian workers that Jesus raised up. But

01:01:25.019 --> 01:01:27.650
then you also have it throughout the rest of

01:01:27.650 --> 01:01:30.989
the story. You have it in Paul's ministry. He

01:01:30.989 --> 01:01:34.329
is not a solo artist. He's working with Barnabas.

01:01:34.710 --> 01:01:38.269
Barnabas actually mentored him first. Then priority

01:01:38.269 --> 01:01:40.409
shifted and Paul was in the lead, but he was

01:01:40.409 --> 01:01:42.809
still in a co -working relationship with Barnabas.

01:01:42.849 --> 01:01:47.309
Then it shifted to Silas. Barnabas doesn't work

01:01:47.309 --> 01:01:52.210
alone. He works with Mark. Silas doesn't work

01:01:52.210 --> 01:01:55.340
alone. He has another brother. who works with

01:01:55.340 --> 01:02:00.340
him, who goes to Antioch from Jerusalem. And

01:02:00.340 --> 01:02:02.920
then when you have the men that Paul trained,

01:02:03.420 --> 01:02:07.000
they're in co -working relationships. And so

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:11.599
it's a principle that does not break. It is unbroken

01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.420
from beginning to end, co -working, co -working,

01:02:14.539 --> 01:02:18.900
co -working. And yet in our day, very few Christians

01:02:18.900 --> 01:02:21.679
who are leaders want to co -work with anyone.

01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:26.590
Part of it, brother is because of jealousy. Nobody

01:02:26.590 --> 01:02:31.070
wants to be outshined, right? If Steve and I

01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:34.010
co -work together, I don't want to be outshined

01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:36.190
by Steve or Steve doesn't want to be outshined

01:02:36.190 --> 01:02:39.130
by me. So it's better to just work alone. I'm

01:02:39.130 --> 01:02:42.170
just using you as an example. But this is the

01:02:42.170 --> 01:02:48.070
thinking, okay? Another takeaway is probably

01:02:48.070 --> 01:02:53.070
best articulated and expanded in the visual podcast

01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:55.090
that goes along with the book. There's a visual

01:02:55.090 --> 01:02:59.389
podcast that people can find at the untoldstory

01:02:59.389 --> 01:03:05.150
.me, all one word, the untoldstory .me. And they

01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:07.409
just need to wait for it to redirect. And there's

01:03:07.409 --> 01:03:15.550
a 10 video batch of podcasts or visual. And what

01:03:15.550 --> 01:03:19.659
they do is they take One thread of the story

01:03:19.659 --> 01:03:23.840
from the book, which shows how leaders were number

01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:30.079
one, called, okay, number two, trained, and number

01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:33.320
three, sent. So I'm gonna run that by again.

01:03:33.860 --> 01:03:36.139
Every leader in the New Testament, specifically

01:03:36.139 --> 01:03:39.239
the apostolic workers, the church planters, were

01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:44.519
called, trained, and sent. All of them. Jesus

01:03:44.519 --> 01:03:47.340
himself was called, trained, and sent. Who called

01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:50.880
and trained and sent Jesus? The Father. Then

01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:53.559
the Twelve were called, trained and sent. Who

01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:57.960
trained them? Jesus. Paul of Tarsus was called,

01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:00.760
trained and sent. He was trained by Barnabas

01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:03.800
and the believing community in Antioch. He rose

01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:07.300
up to leadership. The same thing with Silas.

01:04:07.619 --> 01:04:10.840
Silas was called, trained and sent by the Twelve

01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:14.320
in the Jerusalem church. You have this principle,

01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:17.300
it doesn't break. Timothy called, trained, and

01:04:17.300 --> 01:04:21.440
sent by Paul Tarsus. Titus called, trained, and

01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:27.179
sent by Paul Tarsus. Here's what's fascinating.

01:04:27.699 --> 01:04:31.159
Jesus spent three and a half years with twelve

01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:35.260
men. They were called. He called them. He trained

01:04:35.260 --> 01:04:37.219
them for three and a half years. Then he sent

01:04:37.219 --> 01:04:42.659
them. Paul Tarsus duplicated that very strategy.

01:04:44.349 --> 01:04:47.570
in Ephesus. And this comes out in the book, and

01:04:47.570 --> 01:04:50.510
I bring the receipts. I bring the receipts. It's

01:04:50.510 --> 01:04:53.050
all there in the footnotes. The connections are

01:04:53.050 --> 01:04:55.570
made. The documents are made. The Greek words

01:04:55.570 --> 01:04:58.969
are used and brought out. When Paul went to Ephesus,

01:04:59.010 --> 01:05:02.090
he spent about three years there. When you put

01:05:02.090 --> 01:05:04.650
all the history together, the chronology, even

01:05:04.650 --> 01:05:06.630
says it in the book of Acts, he spent three years

01:05:06.630 --> 01:05:12.789
in Ephesus. He called and trained and sent eight

01:05:12.789 --> 01:05:16.150
men. We have their names in the New Testament

01:05:16.150 --> 01:05:20.369
then a ninth added and He did it at the same

01:05:20.369 --> 01:05:24.070
time or he did it along the same lines and around

01:05:24.070 --> 01:05:27.309
the same time span that Jesus trained the 12

01:05:27.309 --> 01:05:31.730
Paul duplicated it and so my point here is this

01:05:31.730 --> 01:05:34.949
that Every leader and there are different kinds

01:05:34.949 --> 01:05:37.110
of leaders in the body of Christ. All right,

01:05:37.329 --> 01:05:40.070
but if we just take the church planters the traveling

01:05:40.070 --> 01:05:44.409
itinerary workers that raise up churches and

01:05:44.409 --> 01:05:50.650
equip and help them. The benchmark and the fingerprint

01:05:50.650 --> 01:05:54.730
that identifies who those people were is that

01:05:54.730 --> 01:05:59.829
first, there were simple, ordinary brothers and

01:05:59.829 --> 01:06:04.849
or sisters, if they're women, and a local ecclesia

01:06:04.849 --> 01:06:08.250
first before they became leaders. All right?

01:06:08.409 --> 01:06:11.210
They were not new converts and then all, you

01:06:11.210 --> 01:06:13.329
know, kicked out of the crib and said, go ahead,

01:06:13.510 --> 01:06:16.869
do God's work. No, they spent time as a brother

01:06:16.869 --> 01:06:20.250
or sister in a local community of believers growing

01:06:20.250 --> 01:06:23.909
up as a disciple in that environment. Secondly,

01:06:24.530 --> 01:06:27.590
the signs that they were called were evident

01:06:27.590 --> 01:06:30.369
to everyone else. And either that church sent

01:06:30.369 --> 01:06:34.719
them out after they were trained. that church

01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:36.940
sent them out, or an apostolic worker took them

01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:39.619
under their wing like a Paul of Tarsus. He did

01:06:39.619 --> 01:06:41.460
that with Timothy, he did it with Titus, he did

01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:43.320
it with Aristarchus, he did it with Secundus,

01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:47.300
he did it with Epaphras, and then he sent them

01:06:47.300 --> 01:06:49.980
out. So either the church, like the church in

01:06:49.980 --> 01:06:52.340
Antioch, sent out Paul and Barnabas to the work,

01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:55.579
or Paul himself sends them out, just like Jesus

01:06:55.579 --> 01:06:58.329
sent out the twelve. And so you see this pattern

01:06:58.329 --> 01:07:00.690
and it's unbroken from beginning to end. And

01:07:00.690 --> 01:07:02.969
the visual podcast makes this very clear. The

01:07:02.969 --> 01:07:05.269
book does too, but there's so much in the book.

01:07:05.349 --> 01:07:08.309
The book tells the whole story. The visual podcast

01:07:08.309 --> 01:07:11.989
takes that thread right from the story and it

01:07:11.989 --> 01:07:15.630
blows it up real big in 10 videos. So that's

01:07:15.630 --> 01:07:18.309
another one. That's another big one. And so we

01:07:18.309 --> 01:07:21.150
have a lot of leaders today running around who

01:07:21.150 --> 01:07:24.949
had never been trained. They've never been part

01:07:24.949 --> 01:07:28.070
of a local community just as a non -leader growing

01:07:28.070 --> 01:07:31.489
up in that environment. And a lot of them haven't

01:07:31.489 --> 01:07:34.409
been sent. They went, but they were not sent.

01:07:35.210 --> 01:07:38.829
And so those are critical for an effective leadership

01:07:38.829 --> 01:07:40.690
with impact. Now it has nothing to do with gifting.

01:07:40.789 --> 01:07:45.289
You can be gifted and not be sent, not be trained.

01:07:45.449 --> 01:07:48.829
You can be highly gifted. But without the training,

01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:52.280
If there is not the training, brother, and there's

01:07:52.280 --> 01:07:55.480
not the sending, oftentimes, I'm not going to

01:07:55.480 --> 01:07:58.380
say every time, but oftentimes it poses a danger

01:07:58.380 --> 01:08:01.880
to the body of Christ because you have people

01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:05.139
who are let loose in leadership and they become

01:08:05.139 --> 01:08:07.300
solo actors, like we're talking about before,

01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:10.619
no coworkers, but no sending and no training

01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:13.360
beforehand. So these are important things to

01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:16.319
look at. Yeah, it's very, very powerful. You

01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:19.930
know, even in the church at Antioch, how you

01:08:19.930 --> 01:08:24.010
refer to this in Paul's life. A lot of people

01:08:24.010 --> 01:08:27.130
don't know that Paul was actually commissioned

01:08:27.130 --> 01:08:32.270
by Antioch. That's right. And it's very, very

01:08:32.270 --> 01:08:37.189
sobering to me that the text records that the

01:08:37.189 --> 01:08:42.069
Holy Spirit called Paul and Barnabas. But the

01:08:42.069 --> 01:08:46.130
Holy Spirit commissioned the church to do the

01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:50.189
sending. That's right. And to me, that's a very,

01:08:50.189 --> 01:08:55.550
very sobering thing that the Holy Spirit carried

01:08:55.550 --> 01:08:59.130
out the will of being God, carried out the will

01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:02.390
of the Father for the role of the church. And

01:09:02.390 --> 01:09:05.430
again, that's why whether it's individual discipleship,

01:09:05.850 --> 01:09:09.550
missional living, or serving God in ministry,

01:09:09.789 --> 01:09:13.350
we find the church being central to the purposes

01:09:13.350 --> 01:09:19.970
of God. And I think that there has been unfortunately

01:09:19.970 --> 01:09:25.569
such great... Well, I think that there's been

01:09:25.569 --> 01:09:27.789
a lot of bad experiences, Frank, that people

01:09:27.789 --> 01:09:31.270
have had with unhealthy authority, unhealthy

01:09:31.270 --> 01:09:37.649
leadership, that a lot of leaders or people who

01:09:37.649 --> 01:09:40.649
know they're called and want to be trained don't

01:09:40.649 --> 01:09:44.050
know that there are places that they can do that

01:09:44.050 --> 01:09:47.050
in a healthy way. And I want to encourage people

01:09:47.050 --> 01:09:51.119
that You can respond to your calling through

01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:53.020
getting the right kind of training, but you have

01:09:53.020 --> 01:09:57.840
to be very discerning as to who will train you

01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:01.859
and make sure that they understand what you're

01:10:01.859 --> 01:10:06.659
being trained for. And so that's why there's

01:10:06.659 --> 01:10:10.619
a great need for it today. So what you share

01:10:10.619 --> 01:10:14.520
with me really resonates. And I think it's vital.

01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:18.710
And I do believe that there's safety. in being

01:10:18.710 --> 01:10:22.930
prayed for, supported by. And, you know, if we're

01:10:22.930 --> 01:10:24.689
supposed to live in community, how do we not

01:10:24.689 --> 01:10:28.390
lead in community? Exactly. Right. It doesn't

01:10:28.390 --> 01:10:31.050
make any fundamental sense. And I really think

01:10:31.050 --> 01:10:33.949
that, you know, it's this is almost like the

01:10:33.949 --> 01:10:36.970
guy that it's like the guy that didn't know banging

01:10:36.970 --> 01:10:39.350
his head against the wall hurt until he stopped.

01:10:39.909 --> 01:10:44.529
You know, when we stop some of these manmade

01:10:44.529 --> 01:10:47.949
wine skins, we actually realize that community

01:10:47.949 --> 01:10:56.010
will foster, increase, exponentially make serving

01:10:56.010 --> 01:11:01.770
God even better, more fruitful. And personally,

01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:05.130
Frank, I think it's more fun. I love being part

01:11:05.130 --> 01:11:08.090
of a team. I love working with people. And now,

01:11:08.130 --> 01:11:10.710
even in our network and in our local church,

01:11:11.270 --> 01:11:16.510
it's when I study in community that we find that

01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:19.140
the understanding of scripture just goes to a

01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:21.199
whole new level. Oh, absolutely. We each have

01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:23.579
a measure, right? We each have a measure. Absolutely.

01:11:24.460 --> 01:11:26.159
You know, coming together, there's a fullness.

01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:28.319
That's why everybody who's hearing this, I want

01:11:28.319 --> 01:11:34.800
you to hear that both the seriousness of the

01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:38.619
need for leaders to be operating with coworkers,

01:11:38.699 --> 01:11:41.800
but also the tremendous opportunity that each

01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:45.840
of them have to get connected to a community.

01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:49.119
where they can co -work for the glory of God.

01:11:49.380 --> 01:11:50.760
Their ministry is going to go to a whole new

01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:53.680
level. Well, you know, Frank, there's so much

01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:57.699
more that we could dive into. I think I'd like

01:11:57.699 --> 01:12:04.340
to ask you to kind of share with everybody listening,

01:12:04.859 --> 01:12:07.819
because I really think that this conversation

01:12:07.819 --> 01:12:11.840
has provoked them to some good things to think

01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:15.659
about. And it may be for some the very beginning,

01:12:15.979 --> 01:12:19.659
of hearing who you are, hearing what you're busy

01:12:19.659 --> 01:12:23.260
about doing for the King and hearing about the

01:12:23.260 --> 01:12:26.560
untold story of the New Testament. Where could

01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:31.699
they continue this journey of learning with you?

01:12:31.880 --> 01:12:35.300
Because I'd love for you to talk about your seminars

01:12:35.300 --> 01:12:38.100
and, you know, again, your podcast or the master

01:12:38.100 --> 01:12:41.060
classes, your network, just, you know, maybe

01:12:41.060 --> 01:12:44.880
share. a little bit about that and how somebody

01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:48.880
can take a next step in getting connected to

01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:51.180
all that you have to offer. Well, I appreciate

01:12:51.180 --> 01:12:55.979
it, Steve. So there really is one place where

01:12:55.979 --> 01:13:01.439
all of my resources can be leveraged and accessed.

01:13:02.119 --> 01:13:05.420
It's my name, Frank Viola, V -I -O -L -A, it's

01:13:05.420 --> 01:13:11.279
all one word, frankviola .org. And if they put

01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:14.359
that in the browser, my website will come up.

01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:18.659
All the books are there. We have a discography

01:13:18.659 --> 01:13:21.340
which shows the books in chronological order

01:13:21.340 --> 01:13:24.439
since they've been published and all the chapters

01:13:24.439 --> 01:13:27.579
of the books are listed and some of them you

01:13:27.579 --> 01:13:30.220
can click on them and read a free chapter or

01:13:30.220 --> 01:13:33.720
two or three. So you could test drive the books.

01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:36.579
There's a description of what they are. Then

01:13:36.579 --> 01:13:38.579
there are the articles. There's over a thousand

01:13:38.579 --> 01:13:42.020
articles in the archive all on the deeper Christian

01:13:42.020 --> 01:13:47.060
life, all on subjects that Christians are facing

01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:50.739
today. Lots of them about living by the indwelling

01:13:50.739 --> 01:13:52.920
life of Christ, lots of them about the eternal

01:13:52.920 --> 01:13:55.479
purpose of God, lots of them about the gospel

01:13:55.479 --> 01:13:58.279
of the kingdom. These are the main themes that

01:13:58.279 --> 01:14:01.319
I write and speak about, the glories of Christ,

01:14:01.819 --> 01:14:04.560
the staggering beauty of Christ, knowing Him

01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:09.359
in an intimate way that just goes beyond what

01:14:09.359 --> 01:14:12.880
most of us have been taught. I was raised in

01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:15.060
the Charismatic world first, the Pentecostal

01:14:15.060 --> 01:14:16.939
world and the Charismatic world, and I learned

01:14:16.939 --> 01:14:20.149
many good things from that. part of the body

01:14:20.149 --> 01:14:24.329
of Christ. But it left me asking the question,

01:14:24.390 --> 01:14:27.649
there has to be more. What is it? There's got

01:14:27.649 --> 01:14:33.369
to be more. What is it, right? And so my Christian

01:14:33.369 --> 01:14:35.869
journey has been a journey of discovering what

01:14:35.869 --> 01:14:40.449
that more is. And so when I speak in conferences,

01:14:40.810 --> 01:14:43.029
when I put out a podcast, when I write an article,

01:14:43.069 --> 01:14:46.720
when I write a book, I'm sharing what the Lord

01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:49.720
has revealed to me concerning what the more is.

01:14:50.300 --> 01:14:52.039
And there are lots of Christians who are like

01:14:52.039 --> 01:14:54.140
me saying, yeah, I've been part of this movement.

01:14:54.279 --> 01:14:56.300
I've been part of this denomination. I've been

01:14:56.300 --> 01:14:59.399
part of this network. I've been under this teacher.

01:14:59.539 --> 01:15:02.500
I've listened to this person. There has to be

01:15:02.500 --> 01:15:06.260
more, right? And so that's what my ministry is.

01:15:06.319 --> 01:15:08.699
My ministry is for people who know in their bones

01:15:08.699 --> 01:15:11.600
there has to be more. What on earth is it? more

01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:13.899
to Jesus Christ, more to our relationship with

01:15:13.899 --> 01:15:16.819
God, more to the Bible, understanding the scripture,

01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:21.460
accessing the power of God, more to church, more

01:15:21.460 --> 01:15:24.899
to ministry, more to everything. And so that's

01:15:24.899 --> 01:15:29.199
been my quest. And what I have produced, there

01:15:29.199 --> 01:15:32.380
are three podcasts. They can go to the podcast

01:15:32.380 --> 01:15:34.960
link in the menu and access them. They're all

01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:39.850
free. 98 % of my work, Steve, is free. I am not

01:15:39.850 --> 01:15:43.989
in ministry to make money. Even my books, I don't

01:15:43.989 --> 01:15:47.430
personally profit from book royalties. I'm not

01:15:47.430 --> 01:15:52.810
in this gig to make cash, which is a corrupting

01:15:52.810 --> 01:15:58.010
element. And I want to have an impact. And I

01:15:58.010 --> 01:16:01.170
also have resources for people who want to write

01:16:01.170 --> 01:16:04.350
books. I've written over 20 books. I've been

01:16:04.350 --> 01:16:06.949
published by some of the largest publishing houses

01:16:06.949 --> 01:16:10.449
in the world, Thomas Nelson, Tyndale Baker, David

01:16:10.449 --> 01:16:15.609
C. Cook. And so I have a lot of experience with

01:16:15.609 --> 01:16:18.170
working with publishers, I have experience with

01:16:18.170 --> 01:16:21.090
self publishing, I have experience in the writing

01:16:21.090 --> 01:16:23.329
process, and then the promotion process, which

01:16:23.329 --> 01:16:27.189
is the hardest. You know, how do you get people

01:16:27.189 --> 01:16:31.170
beyond your mother and sister and you know, cousin

01:16:31.170 --> 01:16:34.329
to buy your book and even be aware of it after

01:16:34.329 --> 01:16:36.970
you've put in all this hard work. So I have a

01:16:36.970 --> 01:16:41.329
whole training on that called scribe. And so

01:16:41.329 --> 01:16:45.449
yeah, I and that's primarily how I make my own

01:16:45.449 --> 01:16:47.770
personal income is training authors on how to

01:16:47.770 --> 01:16:50.710
write, but the ministry part, I don't personally

01:16:50.710 --> 01:16:54.350
profit from any of that. And I just want to put

01:16:54.350 --> 01:16:57.829
quality work out into the world that has radically

01:16:57.829 --> 01:17:01.289
changed my life. and paid forward to God's people.

01:17:01.869 --> 01:17:04.529
So frankviola .org, they can get everything.

01:17:04.829 --> 01:17:07.409
It's all there. The podcast, the articles, the

01:17:07.409 --> 01:17:10.550
books. We have a YouTube channel, et cetera,

01:17:10.689 --> 01:17:13.510
et cetera. The mastermind. If you're a Christian

01:17:13.510 --> 01:17:17.210
leader, you're a pastor, you're a missionary,

01:17:17.430 --> 01:17:19.670
you're a church planter, you're a Bible teacher,

01:17:20.149 --> 01:17:25.149
and you want to have an experience that's life

01:17:25.149 --> 01:17:29.079
-changing with other leaders. from different

01:17:29.079 --> 01:17:31.939
denominations, different walks in the Christian

01:17:31.939 --> 01:17:35.279
world who live in different places, I would encourage

01:17:35.279 --> 01:17:38.600
you to check out the Insurgence Experience Mastermind.

01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:40.840
It's on the website in the Courses page. There's

01:17:40.840 --> 01:17:43.359
a Courses page on the menu and you'll find the

01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:44.880
Insurgence Experience. Steve, you were part of

01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:48.319
it last year. Feel free to testify. I'll send

01:17:48.319 --> 01:17:50.880
you a check in the mail next week. Go ahead and

01:17:50.880 --> 01:17:54.640
tell us what your experience was. Yeah, Frank,

01:17:55.239 --> 01:17:57.920
you know, before you even asked me to do it,

01:17:58.399 --> 01:18:00.859
you know, I was already thinking about reflecting

01:18:00.859 --> 01:18:04.420
on the experience. And I want to I want to tell

01:18:04.420 --> 01:18:06.779
you, I think that one of the biggest words that

01:18:06.779 --> 01:18:09.760
can come out of my heart from it was it was organically

01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:13.880
powerful encounter with God and my brothers.

01:18:14.899 --> 01:18:21.840
It was not about anything but being with the

01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:26.380
Lord and with each other. And it was it was simple.

01:18:26.380 --> 01:18:28.800
In fact, me and a couple of the guys, you know,

01:18:28.859 --> 01:18:31.859
have stayed in in touch from from that insurgent

01:18:31.859 --> 01:18:34.859
mastermind. And and, you know, we kind of reflected

01:18:34.859 --> 01:18:39.560
that it was so simple, but it was so pure and

01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:43.439
it was just amazing how in a short period of

01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:48.199
time we had our hearts knitted together. And

01:18:48.199 --> 01:18:52.319
it really. You know today there's some you know,

01:18:52.380 --> 01:18:54.680
I use the word earlier in our conversation There's

01:18:54.680 --> 01:18:58.119
noise a lot of glitz a lot of glamour a lot of

01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:02.159
distraction and this was a simple encounter with

01:19:02.159 --> 01:19:06.640
the simplicity of Christ and I just highly recommend

01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:11.300
it for for everyone, especially if you feel like

01:19:11.300 --> 01:19:15.300
Your ministry you're overwhelmed. You're burdened

01:19:15.300 --> 01:19:17.359
You feel like you don't have enough time in the

01:19:17.359 --> 01:19:22.229
day You feel like you need a break. I wouldn't

01:19:22.229 --> 01:19:26.710
call this a retreat. I would I would call it,

01:19:26.710 --> 01:19:30.850
you know, an encounter. You're going to grow.

01:19:31.109 --> 01:19:33.949
You're going to and I've been to a bunch of things

01:19:33.949 --> 01:19:36.329
like this, but I could tell you this one was

01:19:36.329 --> 01:19:41.050
unique. I highly recommend it to everybody. Thanks,

01:19:41.270 --> 01:19:44.970
brother. Appreciate that. I'm sure you'll have

01:19:44.970 --> 01:19:46.829
links in the show notes, but everything can be

01:19:46.829 --> 01:19:50.850
found at FrankViola .org. And Steve, I hope to

01:19:50.850 --> 01:19:52.710
see you in Florida sometime. You have to let

01:19:52.710 --> 01:19:55.130
me know because I have something I'd like to

01:19:55.130 --> 01:19:58.260
do with you. It won't take much time. It has

01:19:58.260 --> 01:20:00.640
to be in person, sir. It has to be in person.

01:20:01.060 --> 01:20:05.000
I look forward to it. It could benefit the body

01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:10.359
of Christ. Amen. I'm honored to be able to be

01:20:10.359 --> 01:20:14.000
co -working with you in this podcast and in other

01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:18.479
endeavors. Frank, before we go, let me just open

01:20:18.479 --> 01:20:22.340
it up. Do you have any last comments, thoughts

01:20:22.340 --> 01:20:27.399
that you'd like to share? You know, I do want

01:20:27.399 --> 01:20:31.579
to have, I do want to give a word to the charismatic

01:20:31.579 --> 01:20:35.460
movement, a sober word. Now I am, I are a charismatic,

01:20:35.859 --> 01:20:39.560
so I'm speaking to my people here. I grew up

01:20:39.560 --> 01:20:42.619
in the Pentecostal world and I've been part of

01:20:42.619 --> 01:20:44.619
the charismatic movement and many different stripes

01:20:44.619 --> 01:20:47.960
of it, many different streams of it throughout

01:20:47.960 --> 01:20:52.300
my life. And by charismatic, I mean I totally

01:20:52.300 --> 01:20:54.500
and completely believe in all the gifts of the

01:20:54.500 --> 01:20:57.119
Spirit that we see operating in the first century

01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:00.779
throughout the New Testament. I've seen much

01:21:00.779 --> 01:21:05.680
of it. I've even, by God's grace, been used at

01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:10.060
some points to manifest some of it. But I think

01:21:10.060 --> 01:21:13.579
overall, within the charismatic world, there

01:21:13.579 --> 01:21:17.199
is a great disconnect. And I'm speaking in generalities

01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:20.060
here now, but there's a great disconnect between

01:21:20.060 --> 01:21:25.100
understanding God's written word and the principles

01:21:25.100 --> 01:21:27.739
that the Lord has given us through his word,

01:21:27.739 --> 01:21:30.760
through the scriptures, that ground us in truth.

01:21:31.220 --> 01:21:34.079
There's a disconnect between that and experience.

01:21:35.279 --> 01:21:38.479
And those two ought not to be disconnected. What

01:21:38.479 --> 01:21:41.539
God has brought together ought not to be separated.

01:21:41.770 --> 01:21:46.069
our experience of the Lord ought to always conform

01:21:46.069 --> 01:21:51.310
to the scripture. And by scripture, I mean the

01:21:51.310 --> 01:21:54.529
proper understanding and interpretation of it,

01:21:54.949 --> 01:21:58.789
not taking it out of context, not removing it

01:21:58.789 --> 01:22:02.470
from its contextual setting and removing the

01:22:02.470 --> 01:22:04.350
background and all that. That's one of the reasons.

01:22:04.729 --> 01:22:08.170
why this book has really been embraced by the

01:22:08.170 --> 01:22:10.890
charismatic world, many in it, because it's helping

01:22:10.890 --> 01:22:14.189
them understand what does the Bible actually

01:22:14.189 --> 01:22:18.430
say? And you can test an experience that you

01:22:18.430 --> 01:22:23.310
have as being truly from the Holy Spirit versus

01:22:23.310 --> 01:22:27.390
not. And there are false manifestations, and

01:22:27.390 --> 01:22:29.909
there are manifestations of the fallen soul that

01:22:29.909 --> 01:22:33.250
are not the Spirit of God. We test those things

01:22:33.250 --> 01:22:37.659
by the Scripture. The scripture will always confirm.

01:22:38.859 --> 01:22:43.560
The experience will always be in line with scripture,

01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:46.020
will never contradict it. The same Holy Spirit

01:22:46.020 --> 01:22:48.760
that lives in us, the same Holy Spirit that empowers

01:22:48.760 --> 01:22:53.119
us, the same Holy Spirit that operates on an

01:22:53.119 --> 01:22:55.720
experiential level is the same Holy Spirit that

01:22:55.720 --> 01:22:58.039
inspired the written word of God. He's not gonna

01:22:58.039 --> 01:23:00.920
contradict himself. And so I say that because

01:23:00.920 --> 01:23:03.000
there have been many things that have blown through

01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:05.140
the charismatic world that have been embraced

01:23:05.140 --> 01:23:09.600
that contradict Scripture. But if we don't understand

01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:13.340
the story, the context, the background, we can

01:23:13.340 --> 01:23:16.840
make the Bible say anything we want. Without

01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:20.000
context, you can prove anything from the Bible

01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:23.720
through verses. It's like the T -shirt says,

01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:27.640
I can do all things with a verse taken out of

01:23:27.640 --> 01:23:33.220
context. And that's true. You can prove anything

01:23:33.220 --> 01:23:36.899
by taking verses out of context and pacing them

01:23:36.899 --> 01:23:41.220
together. And so I just want to say to the Charismatics

01:23:41.220 --> 01:23:44.539
listening to this, this book will serve you well.

01:23:44.579 --> 01:23:47.319
And again, I want to underscore the fact that

01:23:47.319 --> 01:23:50.439
the leading New Testament scholar in the world,

01:23:50.619 --> 01:23:54.239
Craig Keener, who is a Charismatic, wrote a beautiful

01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:58.859
forward to this book. In fact, The forward itself

01:23:58.859 --> 01:24:02.060
is worth its weight in gold. So that's my word

01:24:02.060 --> 01:24:04.920
to you. I'm speaking as a fellow charismatic.

01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:07.880
The book will help you get on scriptural ground

01:24:07.880 --> 01:24:11.659
and really learn how to follow your spiritual

01:24:11.659 --> 01:24:15.039
instincts and test when an experience is from

01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:17.399
the spirit of God and when it's not. And so this

01:24:17.399 --> 01:24:20.319
is all to his glory. Yeah. Thank you so much

01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:25.319
for sharing that. And it's something that that

01:24:25.319 --> 01:24:30.539
we really need to take to heart because if anything,

01:24:30.579 --> 01:24:34.579
we have to understand that we have been entrusted

01:24:34.579 --> 01:24:41.319
to Stuart to bring forth to serve the most important

01:24:41.319 --> 01:24:45.000
message and the most important work in all the

01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:49.100
earth. And it blows my mind, Frank, how I know

01:24:49.100 --> 01:24:50.840
some medical doctors and people in the medical

01:24:50.840 --> 01:24:54.529
profession. the amount of money that people invest

01:24:54.529 --> 01:25:00.550
to work on medicine, and the number of years

01:25:00.550 --> 01:25:04.369
they invest their lives into. And with residencies

01:25:04.369 --> 01:25:06.270
and specialties, I mean, you know, they could

01:25:06.270 --> 01:25:10.409
be studying formally for five to 10 years easily.

01:25:11.010 --> 01:25:13.850
And they'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars

01:25:13.850 --> 01:25:17.289
on this training. And they dedicate their life

01:25:17.289 --> 01:25:20.300
to the point um that they have no other life

01:25:20.300 --> 01:25:24.460
than than their their medical studies yes while

01:25:24.460 --> 01:25:28.699
i appreciate the dedication and i honor their

01:25:28.699 --> 01:25:33.840
work um that they do to help people i i can't

01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:38.840
but help think that my goodness all of that is

01:25:38.840 --> 01:25:43.770
to work on dust Right. You know, and I'm referring

01:25:43.770 --> 01:25:45.590
to the, you know, the idea, for those who may

01:25:45.590 --> 01:25:48.210
not know, in Genesis 2 -7, that the Lord formed

01:25:48.210 --> 01:25:51.270
us from the dust of the earth, right? And He

01:25:51.270 --> 01:25:54.670
breathed into us the breath of life. But that,

01:25:55.069 --> 01:25:57.289
and I'm not minimizing the work, I'm just saying

01:25:57.289 --> 01:26:00.630
that what dedication they have to become experts,

01:26:01.250 --> 01:26:05.130
but still it's only temporal, it's only for now.

01:26:05.789 --> 01:26:09.189
But we're called to throw into and study and

01:26:09.189 --> 01:26:14.890
become established and rooted in Christ for the

01:26:14.890 --> 01:26:18.329
eternal purposes of God. What level of commitment

01:26:18.329 --> 01:26:21.630
should we have? What level of training should

01:26:21.630 --> 01:26:25.590
we have? What level of dedication should we have

01:26:25.590 --> 01:26:27.789
to make sure that we're rightly dividing the

01:26:27.789 --> 01:26:30.409
word of truth so that we're workmen that need

01:26:30.409 --> 01:26:34.529
not be ashamed? So this is why we've got to invest

01:26:34.529 --> 01:26:40.489
time. And guys, first comes the Bible. to soak

01:26:40.489 --> 01:26:43.430
in it, to live in it, to live by every word that's

01:26:43.430 --> 01:26:47.390
in it, and then we can look at resources like

01:26:47.390 --> 01:26:50.210
the Untold Story that are going to help you and

01:26:50.210 --> 01:26:53.970
enrich your understanding of the Bible. So, Frank,

01:26:54.029 --> 01:26:56.310
I just want to personally thank you so much for

01:26:56.310 --> 01:26:59.710
investing the time, not only in this podcast,

01:26:59.890 --> 01:27:04.350
but more so in taking the time to do a work of

01:27:04.350 --> 01:27:08.970
excellence in the Untold Story. Thank you, brother.

01:27:09.189 --> 01:27:11.850
Can I add a little postscript here? Because I

01:27:11.850 --> 01:27:14.590
think the charismatic listeners as well as the

01:27:14.590 --> 01:27:17.409
non charismatic listeners will appreciate this.

01:27:17.409 --> 01:27:20.430
All right. There have been lots of trees that

01:27:20.430 --> 01:27:26.090
have been cut down and killed to create books

01:27:26.090 --> 01:27:29.229
and articles and pamphlets trying to explain

01:27:29.229 --> 01:27:33.890
Paul's thorn in the flesh. And the theories are

01:27:33.890 --> 01:27:36.350
relentless. They've been going on for centuries.

01:27:37.649 --> 01:27:39.829
Theologians and scholars have come up with things

01:27:39.829 --> 01:27:41.810
like, well, that was an eye disease that Paul

01:27:41.810 --> 01:27:46.310
had, or it was malaria, or it was a constant

01:27:46.310 --> 01:27:49.449
temptation that Paul had with lust. All sorts

01:27:49.449 --> 01:27:52.970
of theories. Well, when you read the Bible, as

01:27:52.970 --> 01:27:57.050
most Christians do, chapters and verses, it's

01:27:57.050 --> 01:28:00.430
open game as to what Paul's thorn is. You could

01:28:00.430 --> 01:28:03.229
make it anything you want and take some verses

01:28:03.229 --> 01:28:06.270
out of context, you know, like, see what large

01:28:06.270 --> 01:28:08.069
letters I've written this letter, he says that

01:28:08.069 --> 01:28:11.069
in Galatians, and say, Oh, see, Paul's he had

01:28:11.069 --> 01:28:14.949
a bad eyesight. That's his thought. Anyway, that's

01:28:14.949 --> 01:28:19.090
been discounted. But when you put the whole story

01:28:19.090 --> 01:28:22.050
together, chronologically, and you fill in all

01:28:22.050 --> 01:28:25.109
the details, as my book does, it becomes crystal

01:28:25.109 --> 01:28:28.489
clear what Paul's thorn was, or should I say,

01:28:28.869 --> 01:28:36.119
who Paul's thorn was, and you see it. as a pattern

01:28:36.119 --> 01:28:39.619
beginning early in Paul's ministry all the way

01:28:39.619 --> 01:28:42.859
to the end he had a thorn in the flesh and that

01:28:42.859 --> 01:28:46.340
thorn in the flesh was relentless and he appears

01:28:46.340 --> 01:28:48.920
again and again in the story he is the nemesis

01:28:48.920 --> 01:28:53.819
to Paul of Tarsus and if you read the book you

01:28:53.819 --> 01:28:56.800
can't miss it it's so clear and I also have a

01:28:56.800 --> 01:29:00.060
gray box Steve where I put all the evidence together

01:29:00.270 --> 01:29:03.270
all the scholarship together and pull all the

01:29:03.270 --> 01:29:05.369
strands in the story and put it all together.

01:29:06.029 --> 01:29:08.789
And you can see beyond a shadow of a doubt what

01:29:08.789 --> 01:29:11.409
Paul's thorn is. And there's a great lesson for

01:29:11.409 --> 01:29:13.850
us today because many Christian leaders today

01:29:13.850 --> 01:29:18.329
have a thorn in the flesh also. All right. And

01:29:18.329 --> 01:29:22.960
it really helps a lot to see. that this is something

01:29:22.960 --> 01:29:25.439
that does happen to God's servants, and it happened

01:29:25.439 --> 01:29:29.199
to Paul Tarsus. And I've had some of the best

01:29:29.199 --> 01:29:31.899
scholars in the world review this particular

01:29:31.899 --> 01:29:35.260
reconstruction, and down to the man, they all

01:29:35.260 --> 01:29:39.140
have said, this is the most plausible explanation

01:29:39.140 --> 01:29:42.579
for what Paul's thorn was. Very convincing. So

01:29:42.579 --> 01:29:45.279
I give that to the Charismatics, because I know

01:29:45.920 --> 01:29:49.319
that many people who believe in healing will

01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:51.680
get that as an objection. Oh, well, Paul had

01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:54.619
a disease. He had a thorn in the flesh. He had

01:29:54.619 --> 01:29:56.420
a thorn in the flesh, but it was not sickness

01:29:56.420 --> 01:29:59.539
or disease. And I prove it in the book. Yes,

01:29:59.560 --> 01:30:02.159
very, very powerful point. And it's something

01:30:02.159 --> 01:30:05.840
that I have studied a bit through. And your research

01:30:05.840 --> 01:30:09.020
in that area has really helped me to even understand

01:30:09.020 --> 01:30:14.170
some of that text even better because And it's

01:30:14.170 --> 01:30:17.630
a great example, Frank, of the seriousness, because

01:30:17.630 --> 01:30:21.630
if we receive information we think is correct,

01:30:21.789 --> 01:30:24.770
it could actually lead to hindering the healing

01:30:24.770 --> 01:30:27.949
that God desires us to. Absolutely. And, you

01:30:27.949 --> 01:30:30.810
know, I think for me, as we're studying and as

01:30:30.810 --> 01:30:33.029
we've been talking through this, Let's get in

01:30:33.029 --> 01:30:34.829
agreement with God. Let's study. Let's invest

01:30:34.829 --> 01:30:38.090
the time in reading the untold story. Let's get

01:30:38.090 --> 01:30:40.369
in agreement with God so that His best is able

01:30:40.369 --> 01:30:43.909
to be released. And as a side note, you know,

01:30:43.930 --> 01:30:47.029
we have a great resource for people for healing.

01:30:47.210 --> 01:30:52.109
We have a podcast called Be Healed. And there's

01:30:52.109 --> 01:30:57.010
about 120 teachings there and growing all about

01:30:57.010 --> 01:31:00.529
helping us understand the foundational meaning

01:31:00.529 --> 01:31:03.109
of what it means to be healed and how that's

01:31:03.109 --> 01:31:06.380
related to the foundation of the gospel. We're

01:31:06.380 --> 01:31:09.800
very excited because it's been ranked in the

01:31:09.800 --> 01:31:14.039
top 10 % of global podcasts. And so, yeah, we're

01:31:14.039 --> 01:31:16.920
very excited to hear that. And, you know, it's

01:31:16.920 --> 01:31:19.819
making an impact on people and it's bearing fruit.

01:31:20.140 --> 01:31:22.760
And I mentioned this because there are people

01:31:22.760 --> 01:31:27.920
who have been mistaught and so many teachings

01:31:27.920 --> 01:31:32.439
of the Bible misrepresented and it causes a lack

01:31:32.439 --> 01:31:36.800
of fruit. So let's get excited, guys. Let's get

01:31:36.800 --> 01:31:40.239
and read the book. You can go to Amazon, go to

01:31:40.239 --> 01:31:42.060
the websites that are there. All the links are

01:31:42.060 --> 01:31:44.739
in the show notes. Don't delay. Do it today.

01:31:44.840 --> 01:31:49.800
Don't put it off. Get rooted. Get grounded. And

01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:53.180
I want to just speak before we go. You may be

01:31:53.180 --> 01:31:56.659
a believer that's saying, hey, I want to be discipled

01:31:56.659 --> 01:31:59.960
according to the things that I heard today. We

01:31:59.960 --> 01:32:03.680
will help you to do that. Our discipleship methodologies

01:32:03.680 --> 01:32:08.909
are actually built according to the things we've

01:32:08.909 --> 01:32:11.989
discussed today. They're not built on just the

01:32:11.989 --> 01:32:15.130
words of Jesus in red. And so you may be interested

01:32:15.130 --> 01:32:19.069
in learning more about how you can disciple according

01:32:19.069 --> 01:32:24.329
to Pauline or a more early church method. Very

01:32:24.329 --> 01:32:28.239
thrilling when you see how how they approach

01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:31.960
discipleship and get formed that way. You may

01:32:31.960 --> 01:32:35.279
be somebody that's like, you know, I feel called

01:32:35.279 --> 01:32:40.460
and I want to get trained. We've got an amazing

01:32:40.460 --> 01:32:43.640
school credited to help you understand the way

01:32:43.640 --> 01:32:46.420
of Christ and his apostles and really help you

01:32:46.420 --> 01:32:48.739
think very deeply through how you can take the

01:32:48.739 --> 01:32:52.220
principal's patterns and practices. of the early

01:32:52.220 --> 01:32:54.659
church and think through what that should look

01:32:54.659 --> 01:32:58.619
like in the 21st century church. And then finally,

01:32:58.680 --> 01:33:00.279
you know, you may be a leader that's saying,

01:33:00.359 --> 01:33:02.640
wow, you know, I know there's more. Frank's been

01:33:02.640 --> 01:33:05.460
speaking about more. I know there's more. I'm

01:33:05.460 --> 01:33:08.579
going to go after it. But boy, how do I bring

01:33:08.579 --> 01:33:14.380
my ministry or my network or my church through

01:33:14.380 --> 01:33:18.319
it? And we love to talk with you and speak with

01:33:18.319 --> 01:33:22.350
you about exploring how we could put together

01:33:22.350 --> 01:33:26.630
plans to help you think through really being

01:33:26.630 --> 01:33:28.369
faithful to the vision that God's given you.

01:33:28.909 --> 01:33:32.270
So listen, you could learn more about what we

01:33:32.270 --> 01:33:35.329
do, about our TV program, The Miraculous Life,

01:33:35.409 --> 01:33:39.689
and get connected with us. Just go to gospelmissionnetwork

01:33:39.689 --> 01:33:43.109
.org. Love to hear from you. If you have a topic

01:33:43.109 --> 01:33:47.090
that you want featured on the Faith and Mission

01:33:47.090 --> 01:33:50.939
podcast, please... Let us know and let us know

01:33:50.939 --> 01:33:53.739
about what this episode did for you. How did

01:33:53.739 --> 01:33:55.579
it challenge you? How did it bless you? How did

01:33:55.579 --> 01:33:59.159
it inspire you? Hey, we love you. We're in this

01:33:59.159 --> 01:34:02.220
together. May God bless you. Have a fruitful

01:34:02.220 --> 01:34:04.739
and awesome time. We'll speak with you soon.

01:34:04.979 --> 01:34:20.119
Amen. Amen. Stay connected with me on Facebook

01:34:20.119 --> 01:34:23.600
at Facebook .com forward slash Steve Hannett

01:34:23.600 --> 01:34:26.319
for the latest updates, announcements and ongoing

01:34:26.319 --> 01:34:28.739
encouragements throughout the week for resources,

01:34:28.779 --> 01:34:31.100
training and tools to help you fulfill the Great

01:34:31.100 --> 01:34:34.119
Commission. Please visit us at Gospel Mission

01:34:34.119 --> 01:34:37.220
Network dot org, where you will also find the

01:34:37.220 --> 01:34:40.199
Be Healed podcast, our TV program, The Miraculous

01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:43.479
Life and our most recent books, including Unleashing

01:34:43.479 --> 01:34:46.449
Heaven's Breath. Until next time, may Jesus Christ

01:34:46.449 --> 01:34:50.050
lead you, guide you, and establish you in the

01:34:50.050 --> 01:34:53.409
fullness of His grace and power. God bless you.

01:34:53.630 --> 01:34:56.369
The Faith in Mission podcast is a production

01:34:56.369 --> 01:34:59.649
of Gospel Mission Network, an apostolic church

01:34:59.649 --> 01:35:02.189
network called to fulfill the Great Commission

01:35:02.189 --> 01:35:05.850
by reaching the lost, planting churches, and

01:35:05.850 --> 01:35:09.329
raising up leaders around the world. If God has

01:35:09.329 --> 01:35:12.329
used this ministry to bless you, we invite you

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to partner with us. Your tax -deductible gift

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helps us continue this work. Simply visit gospelmissionnetwork

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.org and click the Give button. Every gift makes

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an eternal difference. Thank you for your prayers

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and generous support. Together we are advancing

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the Kingdom of God.