Rev. Dr. Susan Bubbers: Embracing the Unconventional

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Hey friends, welcome to the Her God Story podcast

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where every episode reveals how God is working

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in the lives of women today. I'm your host, Jodie

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Chiricosta, ministry leader with Somebody Cares

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America and international author and fellow traveler

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on this amazing journey with Jesus. Let me ask

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you, have you ever found yourself walking a path

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you never expected? Maybe God led you in a direction

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that felt unfamiliar, risky, even lonely? Maybe

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he asked you to leave something comfortable behind

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not knowing what was next only that he was calling

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you forward. Hebrews 11 8 reminds us by faith

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Abraham obeyed and went even though he did not

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know where he was going. Obedience rarely comes

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with a roadmap but it always comes with a promise

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that God is with us and his plans are good. That

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truth is also what fuels our mission through

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the widow and orphan fund that somebody cares.

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Throughout scripture, God makes it clear how

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deeply he cares for the overlooked and hurting,

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especially widows and orphans. And as a community

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of women, we get to step in and bring real hope

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to those facing unimaginable hardship. Just recently,

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we sent support to Christian widows in Myanmar,

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a nation torn by civil war and devastated by

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a major earthquake. Some of their husbands were

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conscripted or targeted for their faith and lost

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their lives. These women are grieving. Many overwhelmed

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by persecution and poverty. Some even losing

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the will to live. But God sees them. He hears

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their cries. And through trusted local partners,

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tangible help and lasting hope is reaching them.

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Because of generous friends like you, these precious

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women know they are not forgotten. Would you

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consider praying about giving today? Just visit

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HerGodStory .org and click Help Now. And yes,

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even cryptocurrency is welcome. Now, on to today's

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episode. My friend, the Reverend Dr. Susan Bubbers,

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has followed a powerful and often unconventional

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call from God. From her early days as a computer

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programmer to becoming a pioneering Anglican

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priest and respected theologian, her story is

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one of bold obedience, spiritual depth, and quiet

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intimacy with Jesus. She's someone who's listened

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to the voice of the Lord. whether in a rowboat,

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as a little girl, or at the altar of worship

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as a woman leading others into God's presence.

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In this conversation, Susan shares how God shaped

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her calling, sustained her as a single woman

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in ministry, and led her into places where she

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can say with confidence there are no ceilings

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in God. This episode includes excerpts from our

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longer conversation. And if you want to hear

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the full interview, you can find it in episode

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18, Talking With God About Hard Things. Reverend

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Dr. Susan Bubber's story. Just go to HerGodStory

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.org or search for episode 18 wherever you listen

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to podcasts. So, settling friend, if you've ever

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felt unseen, uncertain, or unsure of the next

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step, I believe Susan's story will encourage

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your heart. You are not forgotten. You are seen

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by the one who calls you his own. Welcome, Susan.

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Yes. Hello. Susan, your journey with God has

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been a bit unconventional and fascinating. But

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when did that journey begin for you? So I'm not

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one of those people who have this dramatic conversion

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before and after kind of story. My testimony

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is more about God's faithfulness and how he knew

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how to reach me where I was. And so for a number

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of reasons as a young child, I spent a lot of

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time alone. My mom had cancer when I was a toddler.

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Both of my older siblings are, let's say, strong

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willed. Is that how we say strong willed? So

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I spent a lot of time alone as a young child,

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but my mom did take us to church. And so even

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before I could walk and talk, I was hearing the

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gospel, experiencing worship. So one of my very

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first memories, I mean, if you were to ask me,

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Susan, tell me, you know, on one hand, the first

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memories you have ever. One of my very first

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memories is having a conversation with Jesus.

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I was sitting in a rowboat. in the canal behind

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our house alone, as I very often was. I'm guessing

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eight or nine. I don't think mom let me in the

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rowboat unless I went without her looking when

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I was younger than that. And I really don't have

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many memories of interacting with people before

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that. One of my first memories is having a conversation

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with Jesus. And so the way I say it is Jesus

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is my first friend. Chronologically, he was my

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first friend. And first in priority, he's number

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one friend. So that's how it all started. Now

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you skip ahead, fast forward to when I was in

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college, because this is more about how my like

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grown up commitment kind of part of that question.

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So when I was in college, not long after I was

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spirit filled, I went on a short -term mission

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trip. And that's really where my sense of my

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whole life is about Jesus. I started sensing

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a call into full -time, or we would call, everybody

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I think is in full -time ministry, but the full

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-time, what you do, you know, what you do when

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people ask you that question. I heard the Lord

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say when I was on the mission field, do this,

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meaning what I was doing on the mission field.

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do this instead of being a computer programmer.

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That was a summer after my freshman year in college.

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And it took several years after that for that

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sense of call to clarify and mature. I felt called

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in a direction. And I was still figuring out

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exactly what that was going to look like. How

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and when did you decide to become an Episcopal

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or Anglican priest? So when I got to Regent,

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I started visiting. I think you and I even talked

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about, we visited here and there some together.

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I think our paths occasionally outside the classroom

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do like that. And I looked for Lutheran churches,

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nothing clicked. I went to some assembly, God

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churches off and on. And finally, eventually

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I found the Episcopal Church in Chesapeake. George

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Stockwell was there at the time. I don't know

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who's the director there now. So it was a spirit

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-filled Episcopal Church. So they were all the

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gifts of the spirit. at the same time having

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communion. And those were the two things that

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really fed my soul was everything the spirit

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wanted to do, but also being able to kneel and

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feel that reverence at the altar of communion,

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because I grew up with that. And so I was missing

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it actually in the AG world. And so, yeah, that's

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how I ended up at Episcopalian. I just didn't

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find. a Lutheran church that fit or an AG church

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that fit and I went to an Episcopal church and

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knelt at the altar and someone had a prophetic

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word for me while I was receiving communion and

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I thought oh I'm home this works for me. So you

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became a rector, a pastor, and you were served

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at several churches while you were also getting

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your numerous doctor's degrees which is that's

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a big challenge so what motivated you to do all

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of that all at once and how were you Really,

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my question is, how were you able to keep a vibrant

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relationship with the Lord while you were under

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all that pressure? I mean, you're a doctorate

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degree is that's a big deal. Yeah. And you didn't

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go to, you know, I mean, you went to some no

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-nonsense schools. Yeah, the 7 -Eleven. So I

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have two thoughts about that. The first is maintaining

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that conversation I had with Jesus in the rowboat.

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I have to keep it personal. I have to be able

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to see the face of Jesus and hear his voice in

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my daily walk. And of course, I go through times

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where, you know, the dark night of the soul,

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I don't know if you've read about, you know,

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we go through seasons where it's easier or harder,

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but by and large, that's a desire of my heart

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that I have to keep as my first priority. So

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I'll give you an example of how that kind of

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interaction with the Lord can keep me healthy

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and motivated through all of that blah blah blah

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stuff you just said. So I've been ordained a

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few years and I was at a clergy retreat and actually

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statistically some people who get ordained in

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whatever denomination of the Christian faith

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a few years and there's a high what's the word

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for you lose them. Anyway a lot of people drop

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out after not too long. So I was hitting that

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you know is this life going to be? Am I in it

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for the long haul, like in the military? Do you

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do your four years and you're done? Or are you

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a liar? And so I was at a clergy retreat and

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during worship, I heard the Lord, not a prophetic

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word outside, but inside my soul. I heard the

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Lord speak to me in that special way, like when

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we're in the rowboat or when I'm in the mission

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field, you know, that kind of speak to me. And

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he simply said this phrase, no ceilings. Isn't

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it amazing how succinct God is? Okay, I gotta

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learn from God more about how to do that. How

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to be succinct. God just said no ceilings. How

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succinct and powerful God's word is. So in that

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moment, I felt released from all those expectations

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of what a quote unquote normal priest's ministry

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should look like. The expectation of just filling

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in the job description or whatever church. that

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already existed, that I could convince them to

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hire me, you know, that whole system. I just

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felt so released from all of that. And God launched

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me on a path that led to me rebuilding failing

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churches. Three of the churches where I was a

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pastor, they were almost ready to close their

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doors and God brought me in. I was able to think

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of innovative different things because there

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are no ceilings, so you don't have to do it the

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way everybody's done it before. And I've written

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about subjects. that haven't been written about,

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at least very much before. I've pioneered a couple

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of ministries that didn't exist before. And so,

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praise the Lord. I am just juiced whenever the

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Lord speaks to me. I am motivated whenever he

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speaks to me. That kind of word, and no ceilings,

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was one of them. I actually asked Os Guinness

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that same question at a different clergy conference

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some years later. I asked him almost exactly

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the same thing. And he took a moment to reflect.

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And then he said one profound word. See, I'm

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still haven't learned that succinctness. OK,

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he said one. He said one word. Worship. And then,

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of course, I teased it out of him and he kept

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talking about it. But basically, I've learned

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that my time alone with God with my guitar, I

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don't say I'm not like a praise leader for get

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up in front of a church. But I got it. I got

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a cinema. I got to play my guitar and sing the

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praise songs I know from memory and close my

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eyes and enter into that holy place. my time

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with worship alone, but also gathered together

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with others who love Jesus, being in that communal

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worship. So I would say worship. Like I was going

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to say, worship recharges my batteries and it

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helps me to know what direction to go, because

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you sense where the holiness is. Worship. Yeah.

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In the holy place, pressure is relieved. You

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get into the holy place and it's like that old

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fashioned pressure cooker, you know. pressure

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is released when you get into the holy place.

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Hope is revived when you get into the holy place.

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And so I would add to Oz's one word, my word,

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enthusiasm. Have you ever thought about it this

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way? The etymology is E -N for the Greek word,

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which means in, I -N, and then theos, Greek word

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for God. So when God is in something, there will

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be enthusiasm. And when there's enthusiasm for

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something, that is an indicator of where God

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is and if I stick to the narrow path in life

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that is defined by authentic enthusiasm that

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God is putting in my heart you know I'm not trying

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to do what everybody else says and blah blah

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blah you know God says no ceilings stick with

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the enthusiasm that I put in your heart and that's

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how he points me where to go and that's how he

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gives me the energy to go there it's all about

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God given not artificially revved up, but God

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-given enthusiasm that I find while I'm in worship.

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And I think that is so key that anybody can know

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if God is in something. Is there that joy, that

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welling up, that enthusiasm about doing something

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that doesn't fade as soon as you step away from

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the motivational speaker or whatever you're hearing.

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You can get excited, enthused about anything

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if somebody is enthusiastic enough about it.

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But if God is enthusiastic in your soul, then

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it doesn't fade. Yes, in that sense, excitement

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is very different than enthusiasm. So pastoral

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ministry is a challenging call. And as a single

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woman in that calling, what have been your greatest

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challenges in some of your... Some of your highest

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joys. I mean, it's you know, you're you're in

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an unusual Yes position for a woman and and even

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as a single woman. It's even more unusual Yeah,

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I remember when I first got ordained. I was the

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only single person getting ordained and I was

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the only female getting ordained. So yes from

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the beginning I have felt odd I Felt different

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and I have felt lonely Every human heart desires

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to feel understood And so often part of my offering

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to God is that I'm willing to sacrifice that

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need of feeling understood by people and really

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learn how to get my need to feel understood directly

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from God. And, you know, in first Corinthians

00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:29.679
seven, Paul talks a lot about this. So he says,

00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.279
actually, that it's better to stay single if

00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:37.379
you can. But in our culture, Just to be frank,

00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.419
the church world doesn't make it easier, in the

00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:42.700
Protestant world at least. It does not make it

00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:45.639
easier for a single person to be ordained. It's

00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:47.820
harder. I had to jump through more hoops and

00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:50.720
prove all kinds of things. Anyway, so Paul says

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.500
it's better to stay single if you can. Not just

00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:56.429
to full -time ministers, but to Christians. If

00:14:56.429 --> 00:15:00.009
you can handle it, Paul says, it's better to

00:15:00.009 --> 00:15:02.029
stay single. He says you will be more focused

00:15:02.029 --> 00:15:04.570
on the things of the Lord. You won't be divided

00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:07.129
between how to please the Lord and please a spouse.

00:15:07.490 --> 00:15:09.470
You'll be more single -minded in your ministry.

00:15:09.529 --> 00:15:12.049
You'll have more time to devote to the kingdom.

00:15:12.429 --> 00:15:15.509
And Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 even uses the word

00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:19.620
happier. If you're single, you will be happier

00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:22.200
if you stay that way. Now how often in the Protestant

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.759
world have we heard a sermon like that? And there's

00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.419
a good message here to hold up singleness as

00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:31.340
not something to think is weird or undoable,

00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:34.799
but Paul says it's better for many reasons. And,

00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.639
you know, I wanted to have a husband and children

00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.460
as much as any other woman did. God didn't, you

00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:43.870
know, supernaturally take away the desire. So

00:15:43.870 --> 00:15:49.309
in my 20s and 30s, I really wrestled. I wrestled.

00:15:49.309 --> 00:15:51.809
It was hard. I wrestled with the Lord about this.

00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:55.610
But as time went by, I saw more and more what

00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:58.649
the Lord was able to do in my life and how he

00:15:58.649 --> 00:16:01.809
had anointed me to do certain things. And I became

00:16:01.809 --> 00:16:04.070
much more content. As Paul says, I have learned

00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:06.429
how to be content with a lot or a little. I've

00:16:06.429 --> 00:16:08.470
learned how to be content being single. It wasn't

00:16:08.470 --> 00:16:13.580
easy. But I have found that it's better. I'm

00:16:13.580 --> 00:16:15.379
just going to say it. So if you're single out

00:16:15.379 --> 00:16:18.360
there listening, consider staying that way. Paul

00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.340
says it's better. I want to lift it up because

00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:25.879
it's not lifted up enough. You know, and I find

00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.340
something that you said there, Susan, is so critical,

00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:32.009
you know. If you're single, you can spend more

00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:34.710
time focused on the Lord and on his purposes.

00:16:34.929 --> 00:16:37.149
And I know I was single for many years. I didn't

00:16:37.149 --> 00:16:39.129
get married until I was, you know, a month shy

00:16:39.129 --> 00:16:44.850
of 40. And I when I was single and thinking I

00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:47.850
was missing out on being married, I was miserable.

00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:53.070
But there came a day where I realized I love

00:16:53.070 --> 00:16:55.789
my life. I love what God is allowing me to do

00:16:55.789 --> 00:17:02.950
in my life. And I am not going to mourn away

00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:08.029
the opportunities that he's given me. And after

00:17:08.029 --> 00:17:11.509
that, my whole perspective changed and I was

00:17:11.509 --> 00:17:15.230
so much more fulfilled in what God had me doing.

00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.470
Now, God did ultimately have me get married,

00:17:17.470 --> 00:17:20.170
but for many years, I think, you know, when you're

00:17:20.170 --> 00:17:23.589
single, you can miss so much of what God wants

00:17:23.589 --> 00:17:28.970
you to do because Many people have that expectation

00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:31.710
that they won't be fulfilled until they're married.

00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:35.250
Right, right. Or that there's an expectation

00:17:35.250 --> 00:17:38.289
that you should be. Or fill in the blank of all

00:17:38.289 --> 00:17:40.009
the reasons why it's better if you get married.

00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:41.890
Well, we have to remember there are reasons that

00:17:41.890 --> 00:17:45.130
it's better to stay single. And I'll also just

00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:50.089
add a footnote on that. I haven't missed anything.

00:17:51.430 --> 00:17:54.470
I've had the privilege of being invited into

00:17:54.730 --> 00:17:58.730
the families of all of my congregations. So I

00:17:58.730 --> 00:18:01.450
share in the milestones, all those milestones

00:18:01.450 --> 00:18:05.730
that you have in life. Births, I'm there. Baptisms,

00:18:06.049 --> 00:18:09.450
I'm there. Weddings, I'm there. Graduations,

00:18:09.490 --> 00:18:12.769
I'm there. Funerals, I'm there. So I haven't

00:18:12.769 --> 00:18:15.309
missed out on any of that. And if anything, I've

00:18:15.309 --> 00:18:20.950
actually had them in more abundance. And it's

00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:24.180
a privilege to be invited. treated like a family

00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:29.279
member at all of those times and I've been able

00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.960
to do a lot of the things that I've done because

00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.720
I had the time and I'm not sure I would have

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.119
had the time if I was committed to being a good

00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.880
wife a good mother because those are high callings

00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.279
so let me yeah let me say it this way it's all

00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.410
about calling Ultimately, I had to realize that

00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:48.789
God wasn't calling me, at least he hasn't yet.

00:18:49.369 --> 00:18:51.730
Hey, God, you still could if you wanted to. Yeah,

00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:53.609
I'm open to that. You can still call me to marriage

00:18:53.609 --> 00:18:55.269
if you want to. I'm not saying that, you know,

00:18:55.269 --> 00:18:57.769
you can't do that. I can see a lot of the fun,

00:18:57.829 --> 00:19:00.130
a lot of good that would be so I'm not down on

00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:05.329
marriage. But my calling thus far in life, God

00:19:05.329 --> 00:19:09.049
hasn't called me to to be a wife. God hasn't

00:19:09.049 --> 00:19:11.089
called me to be a mother. But those are callings

00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:13.849
and you need to have an anointing. to be a wife,

00:19:13.890 --> 00:19:16.329
to be a mother, and that isn't the shape that

00:19:16.329 --> 00:19:19.410
the anointing God put on me has taken. In the

00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:22.049
past few decades, actually, the Episcopal Church

00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:25.470
in the U .S. took a turn away from some of the

00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:28.589
biblical norms regarding sexuality that caused

00:19:28.589 --> 00:19:31.509
a lot of the Episcopal churches in the U .S.

00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:34.690
to leave that denomination and align with kind

00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:37.609
of a new denomination called the Global Anglican

00:19:37.609 --> 00:19:39.809
Church. Yes, that's right. And the churches and

00:19:39.809 --> 00:19:43.400
clergy that made that decision paid a pretty

00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.799
big price for it. You had to make that decision

00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:51.039
and, you know, count the cost of what leaving

00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.079
the Episcopal Church would mean. What did you

00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:56.779
do and how did you make that decision? Well,

00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:58.920
I didn't rush into it. I actually took quite

00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.279
a bit of time. I didn't do it alone. I was with

00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.319
a group of other like -minded clergy, so I was

00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.759
careful, I was cautious, and I was communal about

00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:13.049
it. I didn't take it lightly, but it was serious

00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:16.410
enough where a critical mass of us felt like

00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:19.369
something needed to be done. So yes, I am one

00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:22.309
of the priests who was originally ordained in

00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:25.750
the Episcopal denomination, but then that institution

00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:29.650
began embracing unbiblical teachings and you

00:20:29.650 --> 00:20:31.970
just can't support something after a while when

00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:36.250
it goes too far astray. So I did help establish

00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:38.450
the denomination that's now. It was worth all

00:20:38.450 --> 00:20:41.039
the change. Change is hard. when you made that

00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.420
transition, you left a bit of security. I mean,

00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.579
you probably pension and health insurance and

00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:49.420
probably some other things. But I know God is

00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:52.299
always faithful to show us his way when we step

00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:54.859
out of faith. How has he led you? What has he

00:20:54.859 --> 00:20:57.779
done for you in all of that? I have had to learn

00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:01.890
how to walk by faith at a whole new level. I

00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:06.869
would say that it's a lesson that the North American

00:21:06.869 --> 00:21:10.650
Christendom can learn from the Global South Christians

00:21:10.650 --> 00:21:15.150
and others that were used to having a predictable

00:21:15.150 --> 00:21:17.589
financial future. So in the Episcopal Church,

00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:20.130
I could predict what my income was going to be

00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:22.109
as years went by because there was a grid and

00:21:22.109 --> 00:21:25.690
I could, when I'm in my 30s, plan what my retirement

00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:28.390
was going to look like. I'm not in that boat

00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:33.420
anymore. path is much more like the way, you

00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:36.119
know, a campus crusade staff person raises their

00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.380
support. So that's what I had to learn how to

00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:42.380
do. You know, I have had to let go of the secular

00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:46.759
and even religious institutions have these mindsets

00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:49.480
of how much you should be earning. You know,

00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:51.799
on grid, right? You work for a job a certain

00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:53.480
amount of time. This is how much you expect to

00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.819
be making. So I had to set that aside of what

00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:59.359
I should be being paid and just be content with

00:21:59.630 --> 00:22:02.730
what I can be paid. And God has always made that

00:22:02.730 --> 00:22:07.109
enough for me. It's not what would be on grid,

00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:10.690
but it's enough. So when I put the kingdom first,

00:22:11.349 --> 00:22:13.990
all my needs are met and God is faithful. And

00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:16.250
the result of all of that is I have a much deeper

00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:19.069
trust for other things too, not just money. You

00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:22.430
have another book I mentioned called The Scriptural

00:22:22.430 --> 00:22:27.190
Theology of Eucharist Blessings. And many faith

00:22:27.190 --> 00:22:30.519
traditions use the term communion. which is the

00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.000
same as Eucharist. And of course, your book was

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.000
written for those studying theology at a master's

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.400
or even doctoral level, but I'm sure there are

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.759
nuggets of truth that can be applied to all of

00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.599
our lives to deepen our relationship with God.

00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:45.859
What are some of those things? The question that

00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:49.000
led me to write this book is, if communion is

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.220
such a big deal, and it is, because in some way

00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:55.599
it's central to almost every kind of Christian

00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:57.559
church, right? Almost every kind of Christian

00:22:57.559 --> 00:22:59.920
church you go to. they're going to say communion

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:03.200
is some kind of big deal. So if that's true,

00:23:03.779 --> 00:23:06.619
why is communion such a big deal? What does scripture

00:23:06.619 --> 00:23:09.539
say about communion and why is supposed to be

00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:12.640
such a big deal? That's what my book is. It's

00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:16.240
a Bible study. Mostly it's from Exodus, so it

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.549
could have been listed In addition to a theology

00:23:18.549 --> 00:23:21.230
book, it's a study from the book of Exodus, from

00:23:21.230 --> 00:23:23.329
the Gospel of Mark, and Paul's letter to the

00:23:23.329 --> 00:23:25.430
Corinthians. So it tracks from the Old Testament

00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:27.670
through the Gospels to the Epistles. So it takes

00:23:27.670 --> 00:23:30.569
a whole second, a whole looks throughout scripture.

00:23:31.250 --> 00:23:34.089
And what happened is I didn't go in knowing what

00:23:34.089 --> 00:23:36.190
I would find. That was the question I went into

00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:39.269
this study with. I spent seven years studying

00:23:39.269 --> 00:23:44.009
this question. And what I learned is God This

00:23:44.009 --> 00:23:45.869
is gonna be a big statement for some but I'm

00:23:45.869 --> 00:23:48.589
just gonna throw it out there God has told us

00:23:48.589 --> 00:23:51.910
how he wants us to worship him God has not left

00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:55.150
us on our own to figure out what pleases him

00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:58.950
in a worship service God provided a paradigm

00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:04.890
of what right worship is in his sight and This

00:24:04.890 --> 00:24:09.009
Bible study reveals the paradigm That God gives

00:24:09.009 --> 00:24:11.670
in scripture throughout scripture not just in

00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:15.150
one place. This is big huge overarching, this

00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:17.769
is a big deal to God, this is how I want you

00:24:17.769 --> 00:24:21.410
to worship me. And the paradigm provides elements

00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:25.410
of what I call right worship, righteous worship,

00:24:25.589 --> 00:24:27.829
worship that is right and good in the sight of

00:24:27.829 --> 00:24:31.690
the Lord. And so the book unpacks the paradigm

00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:34.809
and points out these different elements that

00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:38.410
God says I want you to have as you worship me.

00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:41.700
in any given worship service. And so the book

00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:45.279
shows how the communion service is the setting.

00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:50.440
It's God's given setting to experience God's

00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.680
presence in a powerful way. And the book details

00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.079
what goes into a setting like that. So basically,

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:58.099
if you do these things, God promises to show

00:24:58.099 --> 00:25:04.380
up. God promises to show up. If you do worship

00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:09.319
in this way. I mean, I know you wrote a big treatise

00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:13.359
on it. One of them is the greatest commandment,

00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:16.039
putting God first. So often you have a call to

00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:18.079
worship and you proclaim who it is you're there

00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.079
to worship. You have to be really clear about

00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:22.099
who it is you're there to worship. And that's

00:25:22.099 --> 00:25:23.960
not as straightforward as you might think as

00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.799
the church becomes more secular and pluralistic.

00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.099
So that is not a given always. Another is humility.

00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.240
Even churches that claim and People, myself,

00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:40.980
claim to be humble. The service can help a person

00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:43.980
arrive at a more humble state. And that is part

00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.000
of the responsibility of the worship leader,

00:25:47.259 --> 00:25:51.180
is to help do something to help the humans get

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:53.140
to their place. So we recognize God's place,

00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.200
we recognize our place. Often, confession is

00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.559
part of that. Figure out a way. I'm not saying

00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.680
you have to say these words, or you have to do

00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.329
it in that order. I'm just saying in the paradigm,

00:26:06.029 --> 00:26:09.930
there are these elements and these elements often

00:26:09.930 --> 00:26:11.890
have been put together in such -and -so way.

00:26:12.430 --> 00:26:16.150
Another one is the Word, all the way back to

00:26:16.150 --> 00:26:18.910
Ezra. You know, you have to have basically a

00:26:18.910 --> 00:26:21.029
pulpit with the Word being read, reading the

00:26:21.029 --> 00:26:24.349
Word and then explaining the Word. So it's not

00:26:24.349 --> 00:26:28.349
just evangelicals who focus on the Word. There

00:26:28.349 --> 00:26:30.950
are parts of the Church that could learn again

00:26:30.950 --> 00:26:35.269
the importance of having the Word. central. And

00:26:35.269 --> 00:26:37.670
the table, the bread and wine, whatever you want

00:26:37.670 --> 00:26:41.049
to call the actual act of receiving something

00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:44.230
that God says, you know, I'm going to use that

00:26:44.230 --> 00:26:48.730
act of obedience. It's a symbol. It's a physical

00:26:48.730 --> 00:26:52.369
prayer. Right. So if I'm in a classroom and I

00:26:52.369 --> 00:26:54.430
say, does anyone have an answer to this question,

00:26:54.529 --> 00:26:58.630
someone raises their hand, that action is communication.

00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:02.980
Action as a communication. And so the paradigm

00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.559
includes physical prayers. There are things we're

00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:09.240
called to do with our bodies. It isn't just a

00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:13.359
mental exercise. And so that can come out in

00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:15.019
a variety of different ways. And there are others,

00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.900
too, but those are just a little teaser. Yeah.

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:19.599
Well, those are good. I mean, and they're not

00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.099
what you would think. It's much bigger than just,

00:27:23.099 --> 00:27:25.490
I'm going to... take the bread in a certain way

00:27:25.490 --> 00:27:28.250
and I'm gonna have the wine or the juice in a

00:27:28.250 --> 00:27:31.369
certain way. It's not, it's it is bigger. It's

00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:33.650
about the worship. It's how we approach God.

00:27:33.849 --> 00:27:36.890
I didn't find God nitpicking on the details.

00:27:37.309 --> 00:27:40.390
Yeah. In the paradigm. But the parts of the paradigm

00:27:40.390 --> 00:27:43.170
that are there are repeated over and over and

00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:45.990
over again in multiple ways to the point where

00:27:45.990 --> 00:27:47.990
like I was convinced these things are important

00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:50.109
to God and if we want to encounter him in the

00:27:50.109 --> 00:27:53.029
most powerful way we can, the idea is positioning

00:27:53.029 --> 00:27:56.829
ourselves. How can we position ourselves to be

00:27:56.829 --> 00:28:00.250
most receptive to God's presence? And a lot of

00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:02.390
this has to do with how do we position ourselves

00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:04.529
in God's presence. Of course, God's always there.

00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:07.190
But how do we position ourselves? And the paradigm

00:28:07.190 --> 00:28:09.269
teaches us how to do that. I'd like to ask my

00:28:09.269 --> 00:28:11.430
guest if there's a woman of the Bible whose story

00:28:11.430 --> 00:28:13.690
is inspired, encouraged, or taught you something

00:28:13.690 --> 00:28:16.329
and how her stories connects with yours. Mary

00:28:16.329 --> 00:28:18.470
Magdalene is one of my favorites. And I have

00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:20.890
a whole study about why I believe she is Martha's

00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:24.240
sister and Lazarus' sister. So I've done a lot

00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.420
of work with her. The term Magdala is not a geographic

00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:31.259
term. It's actually a new name, like Saul was

00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:36.880
named Paul, or Simon Peter, Simon was called

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:42.099
Peter. Mary is the Magdala. And Magdala means

00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:46.099
pulpit. And she was the first person to proclaim

00:28:46.099 --> 00:28:50.549
that Jesus was resurrected. And so yeah, I really

00:28:50.549 --> 00:28:53.670
see Mary Magdalene as more important than most

00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:56.269
realize, but not in the ways that the pop culture

00:28:56.269 --> 00:28:59.589
or Jesus Christ superstar or whatever those might

00:28:59.589 --> 00:29:02.430
say the reasons why she's big. I think she's

00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:04.950
really important because she was a woman with

00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:08.289
no ceilings. She wanted to learn from Jesus when

00:29:08.289 --> 00:29:10.750
women weren't expected to learn. She was willing

00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:12.769
to open her mouth and say that he's resurrected

00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:15.309
when people weren't expecting a woman to say

00:29:15.309 --> 00:29:17.569
something like that. She was willing to fashion

00:29:17.569 --> 00:29:21.109
her whole life to go where he went and to follow

00:29:21.109 --> 00:29:23.730
in his footsteps and to sacrifice whatever it

00:29:23.730 --> 00:29:26.910
took to do that. So yeah, she's one of my heroes.

00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:30.069
Friend, I hope Susan's story is stirring something

00:29:30.069 --> 00:29:32.769
in your heart. A reminder that you don't have

00:29:32.769 --> 00:29:35.170
to have it all figured out to follow God boldly.

00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:38.480
Like Susan you may feel different or like your

00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.019
path doesn't look like anyone else's but that

00:29:41.019 --> 00:29:44.119
doesn't mean you're on the wrong road It might

00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:48.240
just mean you're on a God designed one Isaiah

00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:51.440
41 10 encourages do not fear for I am with you.

00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.720
Do not be dismayed. I am your God I will strengthen

00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.299
you and help you I will uphold you with my righteous

00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:00.980
right hand friend. You are not walking alone.

00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.150
God is with you empowering sustaining and guiding

00:30:05.150 --> 00:30:08.170
you forward. So let me encourage you. Don't let

00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:11.589
fear, loneliness, or uncertainty stop you. Whether

00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:13.829
you're single, married, starting over, or stepping

00:30:13.829 --> 00:30:17.009
into something new, God sees you, just like he

00:30:17.009 --> 00:30:20.109
saw Susan, and he has no ceilings on what he

00:30:20.109 --> 00:30:22.750
can do through your life. Susan, would you pray

00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:25.450
for our listeners? It would be my privilege,

00:30:25.609 --> 00:30:29.829
my pleasure. Precious Jesus. Precious Jesus.

00:30:30.529 --> 00:30:34.319
You are precious, Jesus. You have sent the Holy

00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:38.940
Spirit to be our Comforter and our Guide and

00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:41.759
our Protector and our Equipper and our Healer

00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.200
and our fill -in -the -blank whatever we need.

00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:49.000
God, you know us each as individuals and you

00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.940
call us together as a community. I pray for this

00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:56.980
community of listeners and I pray for each individual

00:30:56.980 --> 00:31:00.700
as they think of you as the God of no ceilings,

00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:03.279
as they think of you as the God who knows them

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.819
personally and has a uniquely shaped calling

00:31:07.819 --> 00:31:12.119
for each person. Every person listening has a

00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:14.579
uniquely shaped calling that you've tailor -made

00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:18.160
just for them. And I pray now for each one that

00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.960
you, O God, in Jesus' name would remove any barriers

00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.720
to that person. Fulfilling the calling that you

00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:27.900
shaped just for them. I pray Oh God that you

00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:30.259
would raise up the valleys I pray that you would

00:31:30.259 --> 00:31:32.359
bring down the mountains and that you would create

00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:34.599
a way you are still the creator I pray you would

00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:38.880
create a way forward I Ask you in Jesus name

00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:45.180
to rekindle hope To revitalize compassion To

00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:48.619
ignite enthusiasm all for the glory of God and

00:31:48.619 --> 00:31:53.660
the extension of your kingdom And I pray that

00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:56.380
the peace of God, which passes all understanding,

00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:59.259
would keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge

00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:01.660
and love of God and of His Son, Jesus Christ.

00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.380
And I do pray that the blessing of God Almighty,

00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:06.559
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would

00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:10.460
be upon you and remain with you always. In the

00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:14.500
merciful and mighty name of Jesus, I pray. Amen.

00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:17.960
Thank you so much for joining us today. Let me

00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.400
bless you with this word from Isaiah 41 10. May

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.220
you not fear. for the Lord your God is with you.

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.519
May he strengthen you and uphold you as you step

00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:32.180
forward in faith. May your life be a continual

00:32:32.180 --> 00:32:35.279
act of worship and may you find deep joy and

00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.240
confidence in the walk that God is calling you

00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.160
to and has prepared uniquely for you. Be sure

00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.660
to visit hergodstory .org for today's show notes,

00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:47.500
scriptures we mentioned, and your free six -week

00:32:47.500 --> 00:32:49.660
devotional on Women of the Bible. It's a powerful

00:32:49.660 --> 00:32:52.599
way to grow in your faith journey. We also have

00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:54.700
a 12 -week devotional on Women of the Bible that

00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:57.200
you can purchase if you want a longer study.

00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.680
And if you'd like to help us serve those who

00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:04.059
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00:33:04.059 --> 00:33:06.519
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00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:10.460
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00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:16.720
Call or text our 24 -7 prayer line at 855 -459

00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.200
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00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.009
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00:33:24.009 --> 00:33:27.829
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00:33:27.829 --> 00:33:31.450
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00:33:31.450 --> 00:33:33.670
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