"Leadership, Servanthood & Toxic Kings: w/ Pas. Sharon Witton & Dr Scott Hagan" S1 Ep17

0:00 It's been said that great leaders don't set out to be a leader. They set out to make a difference. It's never been about the role. It's about the goal. Ours is a time of crisis and in our day the true test of leadership is how well you function in that crisis. In this episode of Keeping 100 we have a conversation about tapping into your inner leader with not just one but two pivotal world changers.

0:43 Hey everyone this is Christa and Sean. Welcome to a new episode of Keep It 100. Hey what's the dizzle, what's the deal? Today we are bringing you a memorable episode on transformational leadership. Get ready Keep It 100 tribe you are going to hear from a couple of world class leaders and dear friends of ours. Okay so Sean I think you and I can both agree we have had an interesting few weeks. Interesting is the operative word here. Yes we both got tested for COVID where they stick that long swab through your nose up into your brain and then stick it down your throat till you go into gag reflux overload and as we weighed it with anticipation for a couple days yours came back negative.

1:27 But mine came back positive. Boo. Yes y'all I got the rona. Oh you had the rona. I had the rona thank you. You know it's funny because it can be particularly stressful because it's hard to predict how things would develop. I had a fever but I didn't know where it was going. Right. I didn't have a respiratory thing. I didn't know if a respiratory thing would happen and these are things that you just can't control in this situation and the other thing you can't control include the actions and reactions of other people. It's so true if you say the word COVID I mean it really is a fear trigger to so many people so it's like you're not sure whether to say oh I have it I don't have it. Yes it's almost like kind of the modern version of saying you had leprosy and people would just get away from you.

2:10 And it's so true because we had to go into isolation. I mean we instantly went into quarantine and we could not leave the house. I mean I'm having groceries delivered like we literally did not leave the house for 14 days which we were doing that before we even got the results because we just wanted to be wise we wanted to be safe and you know glad we did. And the truth is that social isolation has actually become one of the biggest problems for mental health. It's such a challenge that so many people are facing in this crisis today. So true and we're you know we're creatures of habit so disruptions to our usual routine can add stress to an already challenging time. Can I get an amen? But maybe disruptions are the point of this.

2:50 Times of disruption calls forth a new breed of believers which I believe heaven must first disrupt their leadership so that they will pivot and this is the season of the pivot. It really is the season of the pivot and you know speaking of pivoting it really is no longer okay for the leader to just manage the event. A leader's job now is to manage transition. We are right in the middle of transition and you know the keep it one hundred tribe. We mentioned that we have two interviews today with two world class leaders and we're going to begin with this first one with pastor Sharon Witton. She is such an incredible leader. Her and her husband Brynden are the lead pastors of Toronto City Church. Her desire is for the church to walk in a deep intimacy and freedom in God but she also has a passion for creative arts to impact the church and the nation and I tell you what I can tell you firsthand this woman does everything with excellence.

3:39 Her husband have navigated this time both personally as well as the body of Christ. They have led the transition so well. Sharon welcome to the keep it one hundred podcast. Awesome. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Are you kidding? You're such a powerhouse of a woman and I want people to be exposed to just the well that you walk in with the Lord. So if it's okay we're just going to dive right in. I'm going to ask you some questions because I want to pick your brain because you're so good at wisdom how did you discover Sharon you were a leader. Well it's interesting. I don't think anybody ever wakes up one day and they're like I'm a leader you know they feel like all their leadership capacity but I would definitely say there are a couple of things that over the journey I've come to recognize you know my leadership capacity.

4:29 Growing up I was that kid that was a self starter and a dreamer. I always thought about life bigger than life you know the capacity that people had to do some stuff and you know live their best life and you know I credit that to parents that you know modeled success well success in God and so I was always the kid just thought you know me plus God equals big and I was just kind of like let's go for it you know and I was also a self starter so I kind of was the person who didn't wait for others to jump in but I kind of jumped in myself. My mom tells the story about how her and my dad went away for vacation and left me with my grandma and came back and I had like potty trained myself you know. Oh my word.

5:10 So you were truly from the beginning of life a self starter. Yeah you know so I think at an early age I kind of was like you know there's more to life than the sorrows and the things that aren't working let's go for it you know. So I think leadership started a little bit around that time where I kind of saw myself at the front of the pack and telling everybody let's go here you know and then I think another thing was just discovering my capacity to lead and this may sound quite strange but in the middle of trial you know I grew up. It's so good and true. Right. Like I grew up with a brother who was sickly who's on the verge of death pretty much every year and we were in and out of hospitals and learning to overcome and then realizing and finding myself in these situations where people would sit down with me and one-on-one conversations and be like how are you doing how are you surviving you know tell us your secret like what's going on.

6:05 So finding myself influencing others in the middle of trial in the middle of me you know that's good Sharon. So I would definitely say that and then the last thing I would say in terms of discovering my capacity as a leader and once again you know you don't just wake up one day you have these moments of life. Right. So I would be in serving you know I found myself serving community church community mission field serving you know giants in the faith traveling with different ones and in the place of serving discovering my own capacity and discovering myself and being trusted by mentors with responsibility that in turn made me realize wow like I can actually do this I can lead people I can influence people as they entrusted me with you know some of their situations and circumstances.

6:55 So yeah I think serving. So good. Yeah in the middle of serving and out of challenge and then just me being me and saying hey come on life is you know more than this little thing over here let's live let's live life to its best. So I love that and I've seen all of that in you as being your friend and I love your ability you have such a God given ability to gather. You're such a gather people want to be around you and you make everyone feel like family and I think that's such a key and your hospitality is off the charts of just your ability to welcome and bring people into your world and bring people into your space and they have a place within that. That's such incredible leadership because everyone feels like they belong when they're with you. So I love that.

7:36 So what you've said is that's super powerful. All right here's another question for you and I think this is key because of what God is doing with women right now. What's really the greatest lesson you've learned as a woman in leadership. The greatest lesson so many lessons. Right. Women like just being a woman like there's just so much pressure in general and then you add leadership on top of that. Yes. Just so many points to learn so many things. I think one of the biggest things and lessons that I've learned in leadership I'll say it this way is just staying in my lane and learning to drive at the speed that I was created to drive at. Break that down because that is so good. Yeah.

8:17 Staying in my lane and literally part of that is and I'll add this to is listening to the Holy Spirit as if I were listening to Siri listening to directions. Left go right. Right. I would definitely say that there's so many challenges to live under or in the expectation of others or false expectations that we put on ourself and it causes us to crash the cars of our life. Literally the car, you know, if our life in the car were deemed like identity and authenticity and purpose, like we literally crash those daily when we live in a place of living out life under other people's expectations.

8:57 And I think that I just got fed up after a while and I was just like, you know what? God created me a certain way with giftings, with certain talents, with quirks, with creativity and I've got a lane to drive. And even as I drive in that lane, you know, it's one thing to find the lane that you're called to and then it's another thing to be free to drive at the speed. I love that. That God would have for you. And I love that. And that's another struggle that I've gone through, which is, oh, I'm going to drive slow because I don't want anybody to be uncomfortable with me or, you know, I may be too loud. It may be, you know, all these different things. And I just have learned that over the years that God made me the way he made me, you know, when he wanted me to drive at a certain level and that it's okay and it's needed, you know?

9:42 And it's interesting. I think a lot of us as women, we're faced with the potential of jealousy and envy and comparison and all these different things. But I think one of the other damaging factors is just the expectations we place on ourselves that were never there, you know, that were never placed on us to live a certain way, lead a certain way, do a certain thing. And yeah, I think we just got to break past those things and just grow our own garden and just allow it to flourish to great heights and depths. I love that. I think another thing that I would say that I've learned as a great lesson. Yeah, these are probably the two top, Christa, probably the two top, that it's okay for, it's not just okay for my voice to be heard, but it's needed and it's necessary.

10:28 Sharon, mic drop, mic drop. Thank you Christa, I think, and honestly, I feel like I've learned a lot of this even from you and just watching you like freely be who you are, that it's okay, but it's not just okay. It's needed. I love that. I love that. Absolutely needed. And it's kind of like, you know, how the Bible talks about David served the purposes of God and his generation. It's like we as women were created for this generation that we exist in and our voices were created to be heard. Come on. So just being free to just be that voice unapologetic and just run with all that God has and wants to use my life for.

11:10 I love that. And that last point, all of it was so strong and so profound. I think for me, you know, I shared a message kind of recently and it was at a church in North Carolina and I was talking about a prophetic word that I felt like the Lord was giving the church and it was at a women's conference and it was about calling the women of God forth and I don't have time to break it all down, but I said something in the middle of my sermon that I hadn't necessarily formulated prior to the Holy Spirit just ministering through me. You know those moments where all of a sudden it comes out of you and I felt the anointing of God and the statement was this, I've called my daughters not just to take up space in a room because so many times as women, we don't want to take up space.

11:52 It's more comfortable to play it small or to not outshine someone, but a leader, we're talking about leadership, right? If you're a leader, you're going to take up space. We need you to take up space. Yeah. And they're confirming our voice and we need you to speak up and not only speak up, we need you to release the roar of God. Come on. Come on. And as a leader, I loved it because you hit the non-conformity thing, which a lot of times we don't talk about that in leadership. There comes a point, I believe every person, if you're going to walk in the greatness of the leader within you, there has to be a place where you stop caring about what anyone thinks and you start living who God called you to be. And you understand you will take up space, you will be seen and you should be seen and you should take up space and you need to be heard because we need it.

12:38 Absolutely. And so that statement that you made to me is such a bullseye statement of, I believe what God is doing with women right now, where we're kind of shaking off learned behaviors and false responsibility. And we're really learning to embrace who we are, our sound and actually the space we take up because so much of our lives, it's like, look nice, be quiet, this, that or the other. And it's like, God's like, no, no, I created you to influence it. Influence takes up space. Come on. Influence has a sound. And so I love that. I just love that you brought that because that to me is so powerful. And it's so freeing, right? Like it's so freeing. When you take up your space, when you released your sound, it just frees other people to be authentically themselves.

13:23 And it's just like, I think so many women creep around feeling like, can I, is it okay? Is it okay? They're looking for permission and come on, say that female leaders, we just got to go ahead and give permission to ourselves, obviously primarily, but then to others just to be, to be in to take up that space. I totally agree with you. So I've shared this with our listeners before. It wasn't until I was 22 years old that I saw a female preach and prophesy. And by spending her at 22, which is actually quite older to be seeing that finally for the first time, but I did. And that for me was such a permission giver because I was like, oh my word, it's my gender. I'm seeing her do what I want to do. And from that moment on, by seeing it, we're giving permission.

14:05 That's why it is so important. Like you just said that women step into who we're called to be because a generation is watching us of women. Absolutely. We're modeling leadership. We're modeling influence and we're modeling what it is to be a woman of God in this hour at this time and giving permission to the generation behind us and beyond. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. I'm getting stoked and excited just listening to you. Well, I feel the same about you. I love it. All right. I have one final question because I just love what you're bringing today. It's just so strong. One of the great experts in leadership, we all know him, John Maxwell. He said that all leadership is influence. We have a cry among a generation.

14:46 They want to be influencers, but they've not taken into account the responsibility of leadership. How would you speak to that? Yeah, I would totally agree. John Maxwell, once again, amazing leadership coach, amazing. Totally agree with that statement. It's true. We live in a generation like I can think of millennials, Gen Z, just everybody existing where there's such a desire for influence and maybe the desire is not just influence, but maybe it's more for popularity and the perks of popularity. That's good. That's good. Where it's like, how many likes can I get? It's maybe a feeling of wanting to be seen and heard and for others to listen to what one says.

15:26 I feel like there's a very stark difference between influence and leadership, influence, leadership, responsibility, and popularity. The cost of leadership is steep. We both know this. We live this life where there's so many aspects to leadership that I don't feel like those who primarily pursue influence even know or even think through. In fact, when there's an explanation of those things or where there's an understanding of those things, some of those things could be like the cost of leadership, like let's say persevering or overturning or learning to follow well and learning to lead well.

16:09 There's not a real understanding of that. When those things come, people who pursue just influence tend to lean away from that, not lean into it, recognizing that it's part of the growth process. It's interesting. My husband would often say that for those who pursue influence, they are the same people that would struggle with leadership. If you pursue servant leadership, influence comes. I'll keep it 100 tribe. You need to catch that. Can you say that one more time? Because that is it, Sharon. It's just this thing of pursuing influence does not make you a great leader. Often you will struggle with leadership. If you pursue true biblical leadership, which is servant leadership, then influence comes as a result of that.

16:53 I often feel like we live in a generation that doesn't have the right focuses and not that it's a celebrity. It's looking for celebrity status or popularity, but there's definitely that involved. I really feel like God's wanting to bring us back to this whole thing of servant leadership. There's a cost involved in that. There is responsibility. As well as I do, there are hard days. There's days where you're lonely, you're forerunning, you're pioneering. That's not glamorous. It's not popular. In order to lead well, you can't follow the crowd. I think a lot of times with influencers, it's like they want to be the life of the party and the crowd. Everybody, we're there. But leadership often is a bit of a lonely road where you're standing out in front of everybody else and you're not following the crowd.

17:37 In fact, you're especially, as believers, we're asking the crowd to consider a different way. Those would be my thoughts on that. I have a lot. I love, love, love what you just said. The reality is so many people quote, quote, influence, want to be an influencer. They did a survey and I don't have the statistics, but I would say the majority of the Gen Z and that younger generation, one of the common ambitions with their life is to be like an influencer. They view it on social media and whatnot. It's actually considered a career path for many of them. The reality is you nailed it on the head. You said it so well and I love that you brought the word popularity into the conversation because influence is not popular, leadership is not popularity.

18:20 I'm talking about influence connected with impact. We want to make impact. We're not trying to just be popular. Anything leader knows, you have to let the ego and your reputation go if you're going to be a leader and especially one that stands for God in times like we're in today. You cannot be worried about your reputation. You cannot be worried about your popularity because people's opinions are so fickle. One day they love you. The next day they do not. The reality is you just have to, as a leader, really have your roots rooted and grounded in who God's called you to be. When that has happened, that's when you're actually going to tap into the leader within you. If you're paid by man's opinion, you and I both know you will cave on your convictions because you're rooted in popularity.

19:04 Sharon. It's funny too, I was just going to say this, that as a leader, you face a lot of criticism. You know, often I think many leader coaches would say this, that you're often leading people to places that they do not want to go and after you take them there, they'll thank you. They're hating it. They're hating it. Right. And that requires a totally different skill set and a bag of grit that's different than just wanting to be an influencer. So yeah, it's an interesting thought process. So good. Definitely. Sharon, what a gift you are to the body of Christ. What a gift you are to all of us who get to call you friend.

19:45 And we're just so grateful for you and just for the life you've chosen because you're such an incredible leader. You and I are impacting Toronto and beyond and I love what you carry. So thank you. I know that Keep It One, Had A Tribe, the ones that are listening are impacted by the wisdom that you just dropped. I love this conversation. Love you my dear friend. Oh, well thank you so much for having me. It was a ball. Thank you. Wow. That woman is fired. There were nuggets being dropped left and right. Sharon and Brendan are actually great examples of how healthy leaders create a healthy culture, but on the opposite end, toxic leadership creates toxic cultures. We've seen in recent abuses of power and politics, the corporate business world, and even the religious arena, we've seen the fallen side of leadership and some of that unhealthy leadership has led to the toxicity of modern culture.

20:36 You know, we really want to talk today not just about leadership on the positive. We actually want to talk about leadership on the toxic side of it. There's three characteristics that we believe kind of are real red flags, their signs, and even symptoms of toxic leadership. Number one, toxic leadership is when it's autocratic domineering, which means the leader will make decisions based on their own judgment and rarely accept feedback from those that they lead. They don't allow disagreement or feedback, and they typically want yes people all around them. Wow. And because they lead, and the people they lead are often afraid to give their opinion or feedback, because there's been negative backlash when they have done it, server one is silent and quiet and not quick to give their opinion because it's been a negative experience when they do so.

21:22 And I've seen this, you know, if you don't agree with the leader 100%, you're then pushed to the outer circle. You were once in the inner circle, you voice an opinion or give some feedback that is contrary to that leader's vision. My, my, my. And you're instantly pushed to the outer circle. You no longer have a seat at the table. And here's truth. Healthy leadership actually allows and encourages diversity and they aren't threatened by feedback and disagreement. But that's a culture that's within the leadership system you're a part of or the leadership that you're facilitating. That's toxic leadership. Hashtag facts right there. You know, there's a great example of that in the Bible. The first king of Israel was King Saul.

22:03 And King Saul represented toxic leadership that he became jealous of David. As David was receiving favor of the Lord. And if you will, in King Saul's reign, his worship leader was David. He ended up throwing spears at David. And when you start to get jealous of the people you're calling to lead, then all of a sudden it's pretty evident that you have an autocratic domineering leadership. The second characteristic of toxic leadership is that they demand from others what they don't demand from themselves. And many times you'll see that there are certain leaders that they'll preach sermons that they will apply to the parishioners, but they're not applying it to their own lives. And they often have destructive behaviors that begin to emerge and they perpetuate dysfunctional constructs in the systems that they're leading.

22:50 Healthy leadership begins with self leadership. And this involves leading yourself first. Remember, one of the fruits of the spirit is self control. A leader's ultimate responsibility is to be led by the spirit. That is so good. The third characteristic that we believe is a sign of toxic leadership is when a leader is insecure and they don't want those around them to shine more than them. Friends, this is huge because leadership is not about being in charge, but about taking care of those that are in your charge. The truth is competition and comparison cannot be a part of our leadership structure or our leadership style. I believe truly the healthiest leaders are ones that are trying to push those beyond their own personal limitations or achievements.

23:35 And when people are toxic, they're quickly trying to push those around them down instead of pushing them forward. And I think it's so important for us to understand toxic leadership is one that limits. It's not one that releases. One of the healthiest leaders I know, and this guy definitely is a guy that wants others to shine more than him, is my great friend, Dr. Scott Hagan. Scott has had the honor of training top US Black Hawk pilot stationed at Hunter Airbase in Savannah, Georgia. He is also the author of the language of influence 500 Insights for Life in Leading. So listen up, Keeper 100 Tribe, as we go on to our interview with Scott Hagan.

24:22 We have over three decades of friendship going. Our sons were college roommates. My great friend Scott Hagan is the president of North Central University. He holds his doctorate in leadership from Gonzaga University. He's one of the finest, greatest leaders I know. Scott, welcome to Keeper 100. No, Sean, thank you so much for the overstatement there. But what you did not overstate is the depth of our love and friendship, man, almost three decades over. I think it's over 30 years now. It is over 30. That we've watched each other go from young men to older, more seasoned men. Sure love you, man. So now, Scott, you're a phenomenal leader. I mean, I'd say world-class.

25:02 And I see that as a friend. I see that person in senior life close to you. You really embrace the dealings of the Lord, leaders in many respects. And I want you to answer this question. But leaders, many times they have a unique process to come into their leadership. So I want to ask you and you feel free to take it whatever direction you want, Scott. But in your estimation, is a leader born or made? I believe they are discovered. And what I mean by that is it's self-discover. You discover the leadership burden or fire in yourself. Or for most of us, somebody recognized something on us or in us. And the day that somebody recognizes your potential is one of the greatest days of your life. It's usually someone older that begins to open the door.

25:45 There's the smile that comes from someone older to you that means it's different than when a peer smiles at you. When somebody that has lived their life, sees your potential. I mean, I can go back. I tell young people all the time. That's why you never burn bridges with older people. Because my peers gave me speaking engagements, but older people open the doors. And so it's when that smile comes from the older to the younger and they notice something about your potential. That's usually when the discovery of leadership starts to happen. That is so good. Because I see it today. I think, perhaps we haven't seen a generational divide like this since the 60s. That kind of hippie generation in terms of kind of divide between them and the generation that matured with the decision makers.

26:28 But I kind of see it again. There's this gap between kind of the millennial boomers. And it is so easy to kind of write off older people. But to your point, those are the ones that open doors for you. Yeah. And it really is that, I call it the collision between the proven life and the promising life. And when the proven and the promising collide and that transaction takes place, that's where education happens. That's where opportunity emerges. You have to have the proven life intersecting with the promising life. And if you cut out all the proven lives because through ageism you put them into this older category, you're not shooting yourself in the foot, you're shooting yourself in the head because you are sealing the fate of closed doors in your life because it's the proven lives that will open up the doors for the promising life.

27:12 How old were you, Scott, when you began to discover and maybe even some seasoned voices begin to identify a unique level of leadership in your life? I grew tall when I was young. So I had people naturally look at a tall person and says, you know, there's something about you. Well, you're just kind of tall. You're a skinny kid. But I would say in high school, I started to realize I could, I wasn't following the Lord, but I remember being on the team bus and making everybody laugh and telling stories. And I was a freshman and the seniors were listening to me tell stories and they would say, hey, hey, can tell a story. And so then the bus would all turn the cheerleaders, all the varsity would come back and I'd have to tell a story of some kind. And I started noticing that I enjoyed that, the feedback, the interaction.

27:52 In its crude stage, that was the first glimpse of the gifting of storytelling of narrative. But then when I was in college, went there to play basketball, I started to have serious people say serious things over my life when I was about 17, 18, 19. Oh, that is so good. Who were some of the early voices that kind of began to call out leadership that impacted your life? One of them just passed away. He was the pastor of a great church in San Jose, Charles Crabtree. He gave me my first chance when I was 20. I remember we were interviewing busy restaurant and he just stared at me for about a minute. He was trying to discern whether to give this young guy a shot as the part-time junior high director of his church at 20. And the trajectory of my whole life changed at that stare, that glance that he was just kind of discerning, should I do this?

28:36 And whatever reason, he said, I want to give you a chance to do this. And there were other ones, coaches were huge, Sean. My athletic coaches in high school and then college, I played college basketball, small Christian school. They saw something in me and would pull me aside. In the season and the times that we live in, obviously they're very turbulent, times are changing. It used to be that you could get used to something in American culture and you could maybe count on it being there at the decade. We used to say the 80s or the 90s or the 70s, but now things are shifting and changing. In the midst of it, Scott, what makes for great leadership in these times? First of all, recognizing the shift and the drift. It is funny because I was born in 62, started, I remember the 70s and 80s, and they were talking about the 1800s.

29:18 It was just a block, no space, like 1860, no, it was just 1800s. Now in 2020, I talk about the 1900s. So we are becoming this fading entity of experiences. So the present day, Sean, it's all about a leader's ability to turn anguish into action. We have people who are filled with anguish and that anguish has no outlet. It has nowhere to go. We understand as Kingdom men and women of God that we've got to call people. Even though we're all on the same ship, I was telling you yesterday that it's like Paul on the ship. You had the Roman soldiers, you had politics, you had Jesus shows up, angels, prophecies. We're all on the same boat.

29:58 Prisoners and freemen, Romans and Jews, we're all on the same boat right now in the same storm. But the Lord is intimate with Paul as he was down in the bowels of that ship and out of that intimacy. He still had a message in the storm for his fellow shipmates, even though he hadn't eaten for 14 days, he hadn't seen the sun for 14 days. Everybody was feeling it. He broke from the pack and was still able to give direction and action in the midst of that storm and anguish. That's the leader that God is looking for right now. Wow. We're here in Minneapolis and this was a place where George Floyd, that tragic murder that took place in the situation. You were presented with a call as to hear the university host George Floyd's funeral.

30:39 And I think of leadership in the midst of having to bring different types of people, different scenario together. But in the midst of that, did you feel was the greatest challenge as you were open up in prayer for that service, but you hosted it. You guys had to do that within a very short time span. Yes. And I think for all of us who've been in leadership, our gut is to say, hey, say something impressive, say something important. That's not what was happening. I really believe the Holy Spirit has led, was leading my life because you're playing high speed three-dimensional chess in split second timing. You're not thinking about the ramifications. You're not counting the costs. You are just reacting. Much like that story, second Kings, Elisha finds out the man has died, the sons are being sold and the wife brings that crisis to Elisha.

31:26 And Elisha says the foremost important words I think in the Old Testament, he says, how can I help? He didn't say, how can I prophesy? How can I lead? He said, how can I help? So alleviating suffering, setting a table of healing, just being a pastor in the pain lane, not the political lane. Even though all the political theater was all around, staying in that place of ministering to pain and being, simplifying the good Samaritan, staying on the right side of the street. I remember my mentor, Charles Crabtree, told me, love those in faraway nations, but also love the outcast across the street. He said, now understand, if you go to help them, he said, always be first, but understand people on the other side of the street will not be happy with you. So I gained great confidence in faith because of scripture and the stories.

32:11 But it was a dynamic moment to serve the family. We had a hundred million people checking on that funeral, two billion social media engagements. So the eyes of the earth was in that moment. But again, doing it, the scholarship for George, all of that turned anguish into action and it changed the narrative to a peaceful one. Wow. I mean, it was truly amazing. And I got a chance to catch you, Scott. You did such a phenomenal job. And that, I think any communicator, you put yourself in a position and you go, oh, that's a tight road. And that's difficult to be able to speak because we live in such a day of, in social media, where instantaneously people would take little things you say and it can be twisted out of context and before you know it, you're in the midst of massive damage control.

32:53 The cool thing too, Scott, and I love this, is you're truly a kingdom man. And one of the things that I've noticed over the years, even though we're talking about leadership, I think this is very much leadership. People, you probably realize it, maybe you don't, but Scott Hagen is a white, mighty man of God and in the midst of it, at his various posts, he's always been an advocate for people of color. When did that start for you? Because that's a level of leadership to where, you know, I think a William Wilber force when he took on parliament, you know, in terms of abolitionists and Charles Finney in this nation, one of the things he went so far as a preacher, you can't be a Christian and own a slave. You're not even sane. And at those times to speak out, and I know you've spoken out at times when it hasn't been popular, what both, I said two part question, what was the genesis of your appreciation for diversity?

33:42 And then in the midst of that, what has kept you on point to stay when the fires come? Your words are very kind. For me, grew up 27 moves in 16, I moved out of the house in 1916. We lived in a lot, a lot of chaos. People asked me a lot of times, so how'd you get from point A to point B, you're a president of university? I said, well, the Lord gave me a huge head start when I was a kid toward this. And they said, you know, money, education, I said, no, okay, I said, I was on it in a different playground every year for seven straight years. I never went to the same school twice from K through seventh grade. So every September, you either learn to fight or you learn to be a bridge builder and strike up conversations with people that are new. So all of the chaos of my childhood gave me a competency to feel comfortable in strange places, uncertain places and to strike up conversation.

34:30 When I was in sixth grade, there was a kid named Dana. This is back in the seventies where they used to mix part of the educational model was they would mix special needs children with the mainstream. So we'd have kid with a severe down syndrome, we would call now in a wheelchair in our class that was just integrated. And so the student was with the general population of learners and you're just like this part of his educational experiment. So one of them was this kid named Dana, he was deaf and he was a great athlete. I think he was a couple of years older than us. We're all in sixth grade. We're out recess, PE, picking up sides, it's in Washington, there's rain when this big covered area, there's only one hoop, the main hoop. So we'd all go over there. I was a little taller. So there's 11 guys, two captains and they're going to pick now there's nine guys standing there, two captains pick, pick, pick.

35:12 I get picked. Everybody gets picked. It's down to this little kid named Tommy. I'll just call him Tommy. And then Dana, the kid that was deaf. And when Dana would talk, he would make exaggerated groaning noise. And I remember this kid's a great athlete. They picked Tommy, the kid that could hear, that couldn't dribble and even chew gum. And the better athlete Dana, who was, I think he was Hispanic as well. He turned away and shot, he let out a guttural noise. That evil nice, the sixth grader, I'll never forget the sound that came out of him of rejection of unwantedness. I'm not Joe spiritual, but I will tell you, I didn't do anything because I was a kid. I didn't have the moral fiber to stand up in front or to give my space.

35:54 But it went into my soul. It never left the sound of that kid being excluded and that's not figuring out a way. And I think probably that was when the Holy Spirit was preparing my life with a dimension of his, his compassion, not mine. He let me hear something, see something. And then I've just had great people in my life that have kept me centered, great men of color, him all. I tell people, the greatest champions of my life have been black men. The men who've opened up the most doors for my life have been black men. And so I've never had a negative encounter in my life with a man of color. They've been the most significant champions of my life. Man, that's so good. What advice Scott, would you give young emerging leaders right now in this new season?

36:38 And obviously now this whole global thing as a result of what we've been seeing in terms of the pandemic, what we've been seeing in civil unrest, even world economies. What advice would you give to our emerging young leader coming up right now? Well, first of all, we're all kind of staring at the same world simultaneously. But great leaders see what other people are only looking at. So there's a dear scene seeing something and looking at something. I think now is a phenomenal season of revelation, understand. And that this is a season, Daniel 512. It's my go-to verse. It's my own dashboard. It's a dashboard for the university. I pray this over the students almost every day. Daniel is 85 years old. He was kidnapped at 15, spent the entire scope of his adulthood in a social injustice in a kidnapped state.

37:23 He was forced to live his whole life in Babylon. And now he's 85 years old. He hasn't been heard from in about 20 years. He's been in house arrest, dungeon area, respected, but marginalized. And the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar was holding a feast for himself. And there's a severed hand that appears and there's a writing on the wall and they can't interpret the writing on the wall. And they pull up the wisest people in Babylon. No one can interpret the writing. He says your grandfather knew of him, had a man who had a keen mind. He had a reputation. He could interpret dreams. He could explain the niggmas and he could solve difficult problems. And so those three traits of leadership, one, people discovered in you, you discovered in yourself, but I believe the leader of the future has that touch of Daniel 512. We've got to be able to forecast.

38:05 We've got to be able to see dreams. We've got to be able to understand figments and fuzzy things that are just somewhat blurred and mirrored to the mind. The man of God, the woman of God in this day and age has got to be able to see the future and interpret dreams. They've got to be able to untangle the tangled fishing line, which is the enigma. It says Daniel could solve riddles. He could explain enigmas. This is the untangling of the knot. And then thirdly, he could bring civility to adversaries. This is what the solving of the problem is. I tell our students, and if you can see the future, if you can untangle the knot and if you can bring peace between adversaries, you will lead for the rest of your life. So I'm staying focused on those three simplicities in my leadership life.

38:46 That is so awesome. Man, Scott, I just love that. Because of the fact that I think so often today, some people aspire to leadership, but they don't know the grind. Some people aspire to leadership, and maybe God is the one who will work through our hearts and our motives. But sometimes I think we can admire a platform, but we don't understand the process to that platform. And when you put yourself in a position, what I'm hearing you say, when you put yourself in a position as to being God's solution to a problem and the ability to take disenfranchised or alienated folks and bring them together or sides. And I think we are missing that type of leadership today.

39:28 Especially young leaders, because everyone wants to be first to the marketplace. They got to be the next Margaret Zuckerberg guy to beat you with the idea. But the downside to that is that we abandon seed for speed. And the kingdom of God is based on seed. And it's always over time. It's never overnight. Sean, just north of Minneapolis here, a couple hours is Lake Itasca. It's fascinating. It's a small lake, mid-sized lake, and there's a little row of rocks toward the left side of the lake in which a little 20-foot-wide stream begins. It's 20 feet across. It's 12 inches deep. You can walk across it on this side of the rocks without getting your knees wet. That's the official start of the Mississippi River. Oh, my. So the Mississippi, when it begins, is 20 feet across, 12 inches deep.

40:10 Your knees aren't even wet walking across it. Given time and given a chance to course its way through the United States into the Gulf of Mexico, it becomes so powerful from the satellite that when the Mississippi enters the Gulf, it pushes the ocean back. So how does something so fledgling at its beginning, at its origin, become something so powerful that it can push back the oceans? But that's what our leadership is like. That's what our life is like. That's what faith is. It starts in that mustard seed. It starts with that young person with a vision and a passion. But given time, a million contributions, storms, flooding, all contribute to that life. It moves nations. That's so good. Oh, my God. Well, Scott Mann is so awesome to hang with you, man.

40:52 I am excited to see what God is doing through you, and I believe your words on leadership are going to bless a lot of people. Thank you, Sean. Man, that's deep. He, that man has so much wisdom. So much. I promise, Keep It 100 Tribe, we always love to end our episodes with Keep It 100 Takeaways. And so we want to give you three tenets of real leadership. Number one, real leaders choose courage over comfort. So good. As we were talking about King Saul, later on, we would also have a King David. But the way that David demonstrated his leadership is when everyone else was choosing comfort when Goliath threatened the nation of Israel, David chose courage. And one of your authors that you enjoy, Dr. Brunay Brown says, you can choose courage or you can choose comfort, but you can't choose both.

41:39 True. Encourages what separates great leaders from good managers, because managers avoid risky decisions that may make them look bad before the people. And I was one of the things that King Saul did is that even when he talked to the prophet Samuel, he says, come with me so that I will look good in front of the people. And that is often the manager approach in that you don't want to take risks. The great philosopher Aristotle called courage the first virtue because it makes all the other virtues possible. And what we need in this hour are leaders that have the courage of voice that are willing to share even the unpopular convictions, no matter what others may say, they'll speak up. That is so good.

42:20 Second takeaway we want you to have Keep It 100 Tribe is that real leaders understand that their platform is for service, not for stardom. I love the quote of Christine King. She said, the spotlight will kill you if you haven't spent time in the dark room. And that quote is so important because friends, we know everything about leadership comes from your intimacy with Jesus. Everything you cultivate in the quiet place in your personal connection with Lord, that is what is the outflow of the leadership in which you walk in. Say that. Jesus is the greatest leader of all in his name is Jesus. And we understand if that's your source, you're going to lead well because there's a humility and there's a servant hood that you'll walk in.

43:02 Real leaders understand that the greatest leadership is from a place of servant hood not being served. You know, Jesus displayed this so well showed us that leadership. The first thing he did was wash his disciples feet. So imagine what the disciples felt in John 14 12 when Jesus said, the works I've been doing, you will do an even greater things than these that the heart of all great leaders is they believe they exist so that the people they lead their ceilings become their floor. So good. Third and final takeaway is that real leaders never stop learning. When you quit being a student, you've gotten out of God's classroom. The Bible says we go from faith to faith and from glory to glory.

43:43 So the journey of the Christian life is a habit of faith increase. It's never ending. You're always looking to learn. You're always looking to grow. You've never arrived. It brings about humility when you recognize you're a leader, but you also must be a student. Forbes interestingly ran an article and the article was entitled why the best leaders are full time learners. And so if I were to advise any young leaders out there, I would say read. I remember as a young leader myself, I got a chance to sit with a great man of God, Pastor Tommy Barnett, founder of the dream center with his son Matthew Barnett in Southern California. And one of the things he told me is that great readers make great leaders.

44:24 And so I would say that as a leader, read. Read is much positive, good biblical Christian based stuff you could get. Listen, listen to people that you're leading. Listen to people that are peers. Listen to mentors in your life. Listen to whatever you can that will help you grow and finally relearn. Once the best way to learn is that you first need to unlearn things so that you could relearn and also be humble enough to relearn the simple truths that you've taken for granted because you may see it from a different angle when it's brought to your attention in a different way. As we close this week's episode, we have to understand that in this hour, the leaders that God is raising up must step up.

45:08 There is a vacuum for leadership in so many facets of our society, but I believe as you become the leader you are created to be, we are going to see reformation in our society. We want to thank you so much for tuning in for taking the time to be with us. If you haven't already subscribed to the Keep It 100 podcast, so you're alerted as soon as new podcast episodes drop every single Tuesday. We also ask that you rate, review and refer and even share this link on your social media platforms to help us get the word out. Check us out at www.SeanAndChristasmith.com. You can also find us on Facebook at www.SeanAndChristasmithministries.com. We'd love to hear how this podcast has impacted you. Thanks for hanging with us. Keep It 100 Tribe on this powerful episode on leadership.

45:49 Don't miss the boat on the next episode of Keep It 100 as we will have an epic conversation on identity and hear from my friend, international evangelist Todd White. And remember, relief may change your circumstance, but a revelation will change you.