New Age: The Shack 2 Is Worse Than You Think

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Hello folks. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Rise Radio Podcast. I really appreciate you joining us each week to discuss some of the crucial things that are going on in our time. So today we're going to look at the new book release of The Shack. Now, I'm sure many of you will remember many years ago The Shack was released and it caused a lot of controversy. Mainly because of the, shall we say, more progressive views in the theology, and combining that with a story that had figures like an African-American woman playing the character of God the Father, and of course there was lots of discussion about this, as this then went on to be made into a movie. Today we're doing this episode because a sequel to The Shack has just come out in the last couple of weeks. So I've invited Mark Baker onto the show today, who is a biblical counselor in the United States, and he's done a lot of work on discernment and how false doctrine can damage your mental health and your walk with Christ. So I thought it would be a really appropriate guest to have on the episode. He had access to an advanced copy of the book and had a chance to read through it himself. He came to the conclusion that the sequel is even more concerning than the first one. Could you just help us by explaining what are your concerns about this new shack?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Well, I there's many. And as we before we started talking, I was kind of working on maybe an article or a booklet on it, and I have at least 30, 25 or 30 have been stopped, you know, there. I don't know how much more is needed to warn people, but I would summarize and I can get into the specifics, but I would summarize it as this as far as you know biblical Christianity goes. If someone wanted to come up with a book that was anti-biblical Christianity, wanted to subvert biblical Christianity and replace it with a New Age counterfeit Christianity, this would be the book at the top of the list.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Wow, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Well, there was a few. There was a trinity of sorts, and Papa is the kind of the silly name they gave the father in the Trinity, and it was a black woman in the book and in the movie, and kind of a little spoil alert in the second shack book. So you know, those kinds of things are perverting uh scripture and our knowledge of God and misrepresenting God. And it's not just you know, people get offended and whatnot by that, and they should, but that is the the low-hanging fruit. That's the the least of the concerns in the overall book with the first and second shack. And the first shack book, by the way, people have said, Oh no, what he's just it's just a fiction book, and it's not theology, and it's just uh a story about this suffering and helping people, but it absolutely is a book about theology and about God and shaping people's view of God. And also, people said, Yeah, you could I could see where you might think he's a universalist, but he's not, and there's nowhere he said, Well, a few years after the book was finished and whatnot, the first book, he said, Yep, I to confirm it, I am absolutely a universalist, and I could expand on that for people if you want.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, and I've heard some people go as far as to say that this, and I assume this may be a popular book. I know the first one was seemed to be very popular, so real possibility of deception spiritually involved here. Uh, would you go so far as to say that this wraps the new age in uh Christian theology then? Like in what way would you say it does that?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Okay, yeah, absolutely, yes, it does. And so, you know, you take biblical terminology like Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, the gospel, even more broad subjects like love, and and you how hollow it out and you put something else in its place, a new teaching on it. Yeah, absolutely. And so, as an example, the gospel, if you will, for them, him, you know, I say them as far as the characters in there, where they're this the main character, his name is Mac, in both the first and second book. And he has these mystical encounters with Jesus or God or whoever, that's another thing, by the way. This everything is mystical in mysticism. These entities that are ostensibly God, which are, you know, it's a fictional book, but because of their theology, we can tell that they're not God. They teach on sin and love and the gospel. But what one of the things that is taught more explicitly in the second book is that there's no separation between us and God. The author William Paul Young has a book that he wrote a few years ago called The Lie uh The Lies That We Believe, something like that. And he emphasizes the lie of separation. And why does that matter? Because that's the whole point of the gospel. One of the points we we are separated from God and we need to be reconciled with God, but devious, insidious messages. No, no, no, we don't need to be reconciled with God, we're already one with God.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So is that so that's pantheism, then?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Well, there's two things, yeah, panentheism and pantheism, and at a minimum, he is a panentheist. And here's a quote that he has at the end of the book. And the first one, panantheism, God is in everything and everyone. Pantheism is God is everything and everyone, and there's not that much of a difference between the it's a small step from one to the other. And this is a quote, he's quoting his friend C. Baxter Kruger, who is a big new ager, who also would say, No, I'm a I'm a Christian, I'm a theologian, and all that. But this is the quote that is at the end of the book that so much of the return of the shack is based on the recognition of the sacred presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in every person, place, and event is the beginning of wisdom. And I don't know how that hits your listeners, but that is heretical in many different ways. And a couple of things first, the beginning of wisdom that's people might recognize that there's a couple of verses in scripture that have a prelude to that. What is the beginning of wisdom according to Proverbs 9:10 and Psalm 111.10? The fear of the Lord. So, what he does here is he replaces the fear of the Lord and not as a coincidence, because it one thing that I've noticed reading, there's no real fear of the Lord or reverence here because he, and I know that's a judgy statement to make, but if looking at what he's doing, if you just take scripture and pervert it and invert it, and you take that part out, ironically, the fear of the Lord, and you replace it with a new age sentiment, a new age teaching that God is in everyone, every place, and everything, and then the kicker that's the beginning of wisdom. No, it's the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And in Job 28, 28, it says the fear of the Lord is wisdom. So this is heretical, just and it's not just these are erroneous and false, and that we aha, we caught him on something. This is deadly, and it's not just like somebody gets hit by a car, kind of deadly. This is eternal, deadly, it has ramifications for all eternity. If somebody buys into a false gospel or doesn't see the need to be reconciled with God, saying, Oh, wait, I don't need to be reconciled with God, I'm already one with God. What could be worse than that message?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I seem to remember in the first book there was a phrase used that was something like the book with guilt edges, and it sounded very much like the Bible was being described there. So this is it seems like this new age concept as well of breaking away from what they would call the the box of scripture and and being set free to kind of relativism and and your own views, it just it doesn't sound Christian at all. Would you say this is like progressive Christian or deconstructing his faith? Like what what's your view of of where this is coming from?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah, I would say that that's uh that happened, you know, 20, 30 years ago, the progressive part and the deconstruction, and and he might even admit that. And you know, there's progressive ideology in both, but especially this one, it highlights a lot of the the death penalty, at least here in America, and that's kind of the the premise of it, and it's not necessarily a spoil alert, but the Mac, the main character, meets with the murderer, the serial killer who killed his daughter, and that person is on death row, and then they have conversations and all that kind of stuff, and and there's more to it, but so that's a theme, the the the death penalty, and he is very progressive on that. And then also, you know, I looked up at the end of the book, there's some actual inmates on death row that are mentioned, and they mention what church they go to, and I looked up those churches, and those churches are very progressive, leftist type woke type of churches, but also you know, I think that you know, you kind of ask where is the this coming from? I think that's what you said, and so I think, and and to the earlier quote, it was a play on words, the gilted edges. Is it because I think he this book or these books are kind of an over-correction of some legalistic background and abuse, actual abuse that he went through. And as it's horrible that he went through abuse, but it's common for Christians who grow up in a real or perceived conservative church, and if they're hurt by that, they overcorrect, and so they become very adversarial to conservative, quote unquote conservative Christianity, if you will, a biblical Christianity. And there are probably some actual problems at a minimum that happen there, which happens in all churches, but but again, the problem is over-correction. And it does seem like he over-corrects, and as the saying goes, he goes from the gutter on one side of the street to the gutter on the other, rather than merely making a correction. Again, he over-corrects into even far worse error and harm.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, we see that a lot actually online that people can swing like a pendulum, they've been in one unhealthy thing, and then they go to the complete opposite, thinking this must be the truth, but it's actually just another extreme. So that makes sense. And when you read the book, because I know it's only just come out, hasn't it? Like a week or so ago. What do you think to the actual story surrounding it? Do you think it's a well-written book? Do you think it could turn out as popular as the first Shaq?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, you know, it's it's very well written. He's a very talented writer, and I'm sure he has he mentioned he has other people helping him and whatever. And and uh, you know, he has spent, I'm sure, a long time refining it. And so the story, in a lot of ways, he's you know, if it's it's well written, it's the content, and there is an agenda in the content to to preach. He's preaching theology, and it's a certain theology, but that's the part that is horrific. I mean, without exaggeration, this is probably the worst book ever as far as teaching Christian theology, which is not Christian theology, it's it's obviously new age, and you know, there's several markers for that. Again, all is love, God is in everything, there's no real sin, sin doesn't separate us. We've always been in union with God. He also eliminates hell, heaven and hell, by the way. Here's the quote: Heaven and hell are not places, but orientations to love on page one 191, whatever that means. Orientations to love. He also says, hell is the fiery fury of God's love. So some of these things are he's a good writer, but some of these things I have to say are cheesy.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, yeah, that actually makes sense because I have a friend who interviewed him a number of years ago about the first book, The Shack, and in that interview, this was a few years ago, so I don't know if he still believes the same thing, but he was saying that hell is like a refining fire, and the purpose of fire is refinement, so that may be to do with those beliefs, you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah, yeah, and so in the book, he he has another mystical uh encounter in a little bit of a spoiler alert that it's with a dead person, so it's necromancy, there's some necromancy going on, but this dead person, this person is in what he calls so here's this new teaching, it's called the moment, capital T, capital M, the moment, and it's essentially a new age version of purgatory, and you know, Christians or so-called Protestants reject that as a Catholic teaching. But even if I was a Catholic, I would be offended because he's co-opting the purgatory and making it all about a new age, just it's all God's love and it's purging, but it's not punishment. He goes out of the way to say, no, purgatory is not punishment, it's just God working out all, and by the way, he uses four-letter words several times in the book. But so I and even in that little section, I won't say it, but that's what God is doing in all of us, not in the afterlife. He calls it the after death. He has these little kind of cute phrases that he puts out there, but again, the moment, and that's this big thing that he learns and that he teaches over and over in this one chapter. Again, it's about a new age version of purgatory.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds very much like purgatory, doesn't it? So it's like, I don't know what you would call his specific beliefs. Do you think it's a bit of a hint of Gnosticism and things like that as well?

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, I mean, it's very ecumenical. There's a Muslim character introduced as an FBI agent, and there's interaction with them, and they're basically look, we're all part of this mystical hidden knowledge, it's all gonna work out, we're all one, it's all love, it doesn't really matter. And so, yeah, the ecumenism, which people might say, What's wrong with that? Just Christians unifying. That's not what ecumenism is ecumenism, is it's just that we're all we all worship the same God. Let's all just unify and drop our differences, and that's great in theory, and there's a time to do that, but this is it's making no distinction between Christianity, what the Bible teaches about Christianity, and any other belief system, including heretical perversions of Christianity, it could even be like Christian science or Scientology, whatever anybody that uses the name of Jesus. Well, we're all one, so it's horrible on again in on so many different levels.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

So if it's the book saying essentially that we are all part of God anyway, how does it portray Jesus and his role in the story?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Jesus is just kind of a big love buddy, and he kind of shows up and he just kind of gives kind of a some comfort and some wisdom, if you will, um, and a little chiding. And he even Jesus kind of mocks Mac in the book when they talk about sin, and he's this is where he deconstructs sin. He says, Mac says to Jesus, and I'm paraphrasing that exact quote, but I thought that sin separates us from God. And Jesus scoffs and mocks and says and uses sarcasm according to this book, and says, Huh, you think that your sin could separate you from my love? And so he doesn't come out directly and says it, but basically, again, there's no separation. That's his big thing. There's no separation between us and God, and that sin doesn't separate us. Isaiah 59 2 talks about it. Other places talk about the wages of sin is death. It couldn't get be more clear and more dire. Nothing is more dire than our separation from God and our death penalty, but he just does away with that because he constructs his own God. And that's what you know, deconstructing and then making up your own God. You know, 40 some odd years ago when I was in college, I was taking a Bible class and we're an old testament and we're reading through it, and the the professor lady interrupts and just says, My God wouldn't do that. And what she meant was that she disagreed with that, and her God, the God that she constructed, because she wanted a more compassionate God, her God wouldn't do the things that God in the Bible did. So she's saying is essentially what William Paul Young did and believes that he just kind of came up with his own God that is hollowed out Christianity and filled in with the New Age. By the way, he's very good friends with a lot of new agers, including Oprah, one of his good friends, C. Baxter Kruger, Richard War, other people that are very hyper mystical, which is a big overlap with New Age, and actual New Age teaching.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

So, do you think that William Paul Young he kind of overlooks the cross and the necessity for Jesus to die on the cross to save us from our sins, and maybe sees it like some of the more progressive churches have skewed it to say that it's like a good example that Jesus set rather than a atonement?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that was just Jesus modeling sacrificial love, and you know, people say, like the more progressives, like you're saying, Jesus came to start a revolution, he died on the cross to start a revolution of justice. By the way, so that's another thing in the book, he perverts justice. His teaching is again in the context of there's uh somebody that he's talking to that killed his daughter, his young daughter. So talking to him and other people in this in the book, this is the quote justice is when you make your enemy your brother. And what does that even mean? And it sounds all flowery, like, oh, that's so sweet, but it it doesn't, it makes no sense logically, and and also he's confusing justice with reconciliation. Yeah, we can we can love our enemy, we can be reconciled with our enemy potentially. We can always love our enemy, but reconciling with them is different. But that's what his assertion is is that that's justice. No, that's not justice. He's trying to do away with justice. Again, part of his MO is to get do away with the death penalty. And there's a line, by the way, in the a quote of an actual person at the end of the book. There's kind of like this some random information at the end after the story of some actual people and whatnot. And he quotes this inmate on death row, and it the and he basically agrees with me. He said, the inmate says, Does the outside church realize that they're killing the inside church? And what is he saying? He's saying that because Christians, whoever believes in the death penalty, they're killing these people on death row. Not that they are on death row because they kill people. I don't relish the fact that people die on death row and all that, but we could argue that a whole nother thing as far as the biblical concept, Genesis 9 and 6 and all that. But his point is that kind of shaming and accusing biblical Christians, not all, but a lot of them that believe that, yeah, if you kill somebody and it's premeditated and all that, like the character in the book, that there's the death penalty. But who is to blame for it? Not the person committing the sin, the heinous evil sin, because he does away with evil as well. It's the people that are pro-death penalty.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

So is social justice really then mixed with some pagan views?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Absolutely. There's that progressive social justice, and again, doing away with justice, and that's his definition of justice. There's plenty of good definitions, but justice is making your enemy your your brother, which so there's many problems with that. But also with that, he also does away again, like I said, with sin, evil. He says that Judas was well intended. Judas was just trying to, he thought he was doing. Doing what was right. So he's just innocent. What I whatever do you mean? I was just trying to help by betraying Jesus by taking money as a bribe and all that. He he was just and then he says that why did Jesus uh excuse me, why did Judas kill himself? He blames other people because he was alone and nobody came to him.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Right. It's it seems really he's got some skewed ideas that are not in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Well, they're not in the Bible, they're not in logic either, if I could say so. And again, but it his premise is everything is love. So everything is going to be bent towards love. We how do we gonna get rid of sin and evil and all this stuff? He also goes so far as to say that essentially, I'm not quoting him exactly, but that predators with a capital P are actually protectors with a capital P, but they're just lost.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

It's it's some really strange uh wording, isn't it? It's like it kind of makes your mind feel trapped when you hear these lines. It it doesn't really it's hard to know what to even make of what's being said.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, it's kind of it's nonsensical, but it it's also kind of to your point, it's like, oh, wait a minute, am I the one that's confused here? Because that's just sounds so flowery. Yeah, and it sounds so compassionate, but it's you know, there's a lot of people that have a lot of compassion, but they're they lack discernment, they lack truth. And so what's gonna happen with that? That's gonna harm people. If you think it's compassionate to kill somebody, which people do, and like assisted suicide or whatever, you think, oh, me killing them is it's a loving thing to do. Why? Because you care so much, but you're detached from logic, discernment, and truth. And that's where a lot of people are these days. And that's another way of describing this book is what I call counterfeit love, where it's all about love, but it's not based on truth.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

So, why do you think, with all of these points you've made about the shack, and also I comes to mind about the chosen series as well, like, why do you think that so many people in churches in Christians can be drawn in by this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Well, it's you know, they're they're presented well, and that's what a a con does. You know, con is short for confidence, like a con man is a confidence man where they build confidence in somebody in their mark before they pull the the switch and the bait and switch and they take for them. Well, in the same way, that's what deception is. People think that deception is just somebody that comes to you and says, Hey, by the way, I'm gonna try to deceive you and I just do your best to not be deceived. That's kind of how people, Christians, think of deception. And by the way, here's this quote from JC Rile. It's fascinating. He says, Such is the simple simplicity and innocence of many in the church today that they actually expect false doctrine to look false and will not understand that as a rule, the very essence of its ability to do harm is its resemblance to God's truth. So people don't fall for an obvious counterfeit like monopoly money. If I try to give you $500 and ask for change, you would laugh or whatever, you think I'm weird or dumb. But if I give you a really good counterfeit and you checked it and excuse me, and all that, and you looked at through the light, and it was really you're like, oh, okay. So something that appears like the truth is much more likely to see. And so, in those, both of those in the books and in the the chosen series, he used a scripture, talks about Jesus, but he also appeals both of them, both those sources appeal to emotions, to what is subjectivity, to the the feelings, emotions, experiences, and what people want rather than the actual hard truth. Because if they were teaching the truth, they would not be popular. Is there some truth mixed into it? Yes, absolutely. But another part of the answer to your question is a lack of discernment that people don't discern. They don't go, okay, this is what a person's saying. Let me go to see if that's what scripture says. They don't do that anymore. It's it's it's less and less. And then one other factor at a minimum here is Christians aren't warning other Christians about false doctrine, about harm, about danger. And I'm blessed to hear that you are, but it's become fewer and fewer, those that will warn people, warn Christians about danger. And then those that I assume you've gotten a lot of pushback of these things, people that do warn of danger, they are the ones that are blamed.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Oh, yeah. And do you think that that's also to do with this the spirit of the age that is being pushed in this book? That everything has to be nicey nicy, lovey dovey, even when it's a counterfeit. So no one wants to be someone that's seen as negative or speaking never negative things.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, the the one sin is to call sin, right? That's the only thing that's unacceptable is to call evil evil, to shine the light on these things because people really do want to just believe what they want to believe. And it's hard, it's hard work to say, wow, you know what? I I fell for that book, that popular book, and that there's a lot of bad teaching in it. And oh no, and my pastor, he was preaching from it on the you know, whatever people are afraid to go talk to their pastor or other people, and pastors are afraid to warn other people, and there are some out there, there are some really good church leaders and whatnot, but they're fewer and far between because if they do, they get fired, you know, pastors or whatever, they get uh attacked, they get money taken away, support or whatever it might be. And so there's a general rule of thumb that the more popular something is, a Christian teaching is, the less likely it is to be true.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So, Mark, you you work as a biblical counselor. Could you give us just this last uh question now for the end of this podcast? And I really thank you for coming on today. It's been very insightful and helpful for our listeners. So I just wondered if you could share your thoughts on how people can avoid being drawn into these traps. In our culture today, there's just so many different things being thrown at us from all angles, including in the Christian marketplace. So could you please um offer some counsel, if you will, on how to better protect ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

It's a good question. And you know, the simple answer is be like a Berean. And you know, I was talking to a Christian a couple of weeks ago, and I mentioned that. And they're like, what is a Berean? And I want to shame anybody, but we need to know who the Bereans were, what they did. It's Acts 17, 11, talks about how they were of more noble character than the Thessalonians because why? They didn't just listen to what Paul said and go, oh, he's the Apostle Paul, it must be right on. They said they examine the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. So that's what we need to be doing. We need to be exercising our discernment. In Hebrews 5:14, it's another thing that's crucial for everything in life. And he says, you know, he's talking about why some Christians are still baby Christians, and it's basically because they're they need milk, not solid food. And then verse 14, he says, but solid food is for the mature who, by constant use, have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil or to discern good from evil by constant use. That takes hard work, and by constant use of what everything that you hear, including me and you, people that are listening, don't just take our word for it, don't just go check the shack or whatever, check scripture for what we're saying, anyone else is saying, because that's our ultimate authority of what is right and true and loving. And if it doesn't match up to that, but that takes hard work. But the beauty of it is the more you do it, the more you build up strength, wisdom, and knowledge, and a better ability to discern when you hear things. And it says, you know, train themselves. That word in the Greek, it's a fascinating word, and so much hinges on this one word is eystotyon, but it's it means this the faculty of mind for perceiving, understanding, and judging. And everything in everyone's life depends on that. Our ability to perceive, understand, and judge. And it's not a static thing, it's not just that's how we're born. And no, it can go up and down. Our judgment, perception, understanding can improve or it can decline. And how? Just like a muscle, it needs to be exercised. The word in the Greek there is gymnasium, where we get the word gymnasium. It means to train vigorously of mind or body, and that's what we need to be doing, and that's what Christians are not doing. That's what many church leaders are not encouraging people to do, is to think for themselves, to objectively examine the scriptures of whatever anyone's saying is true and vetting it one way or the other, testing it to see if it's true and rejecting what is false and warning people about that.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I know that's a long answer, but well, no, absolutely, because the more you become familiar with the truth of God's word, the counterfeit becomes more obvious, doesn't it? And sometimes, as you say, it reminds me of this uh quote from Spurgeon where he said, Real discernment is not the difference between what's right and wrong, but between what's right and almost right, and it is in that almost right counterfeit that the most danger is, would you say, because it's so close, parallel to the truth.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Absolutely, yeah. And I love that quote, and almost right. And so, again, that that counterfeit that's almost right, it looks just like the right thing. The person saying the right words, they talked about Jesus. And I remember warning a pastor 20 years ago about a book, a popular book, then and now love and respect. And he's he's like, What are you talking about? The Christian, the author is a Christian. That that was his level of discernment. Just because somebody proclaims to be a Christian and even is saved, doesn't mean they can't write something that's horrible and harmful. And so we need that fine-tuned discernment. Like if we have a problem with our car and we maybe ask a friend, they're like, I well, check this and this, and they don't know. We go to somebody that's more and more nuanced in in a carburetor or in a battery or whatever the problem is, and that's what we need all need to be developing is that nuanced discernment where we can distinguish the fine-tuned, the finer points between right and wrong, error and truth. And people are loath to do that because it takes work, but nothing is more important, and it's an incredible blessing when you're able to grow in that area.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah, and I like the fact there you said as well that even real believers can make mistakes. It's not always black and white, is it? Because sometimes true believers can get certain things wrong as well. So it's yeah. I just want to I looked on your website as well, uh, your uh Hope for Life resources, and on the topic of discernment, you have a book there which looks really interesting in terms of learning discernment. That that's available on your website, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah, yeah. Learning to discern and kind of you know, a big part of our ministry. We do biblical counseling, but the bigger goal is to equip people, not just to help people solve problems, but to equip them to help solve their own problems now and in the future and help other people too. And so we have a lot of equipping resources because that's what scripture tells us to do is to equip, to be equipped, to be thoroughly equipped for every good work and how through God's word. And so we have that a couple of books on discernment, books on you know forgiveness, relationships, uh, other harmful ideologies like leftism, wokeism, socialism, you you name it. We we we try to put stuff out there to warn people and to equip them to live this life and to help others.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

And you also offer a biblical counseling service as well, don't you? That's that's really good to see that.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah, yeah. I I counsel people all over, counsel several people in the UK, in Europe, all over the states, and different uh every continent up other than Antarctica, and you just do it through Teams or FaceTime. And uh it's weird the the age we live in that technology can do that, but just getting the word, I'll all making disciples of all nations.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Great. That's really awesome. Uh thank you for coming on, and I encourage anyone listening to go and check out your website, the Hope for Life Resources. Mark, really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your insights today. Thank you. Thank you, David.