What's Next for IHOP KC and Other Christian Leaders featuring Dr. Michael Brown

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Hello everyone, welcome to the Strang Report. I'm Stephen Strang and today we're going to

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talk about a very important topic that we've handled in the past. It's what's going on

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at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, specifically with Mike Bickel, my longtime

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friend, and today I'm going to have a conversation with Dr. Michael Brown, who also is a longtime

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friend of the International House of Prayer and a longtime friend of mine. You know him

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with his podcast and radio show called Lion of Fire. He is the author of many books, several

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of which I've had the privilege of publishing. And we've done numerous podcasts over the

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years and I wanted to talk about this just because it's very important, not only for

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Mike Bickel and the International House of Prayer, but there are bigger principles involved

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that have to do with the larger Christian community and have to do with the body of Christ.

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So let me introduce or say welcome to Dr. Brown. It's always good to see you.

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Good to be with you always. And actually I'm almost written 50 books now, but you've published

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more of my books than anybody else. So yeah, that's great to know. Thank you for telling

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me. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'll put it in the next bio that I do for you. Okay. Let me start

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with kind of a disclaimer and also an apology because I have dealt with this a couple of

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times before. I must say that when this came out in late October that Mike Bickel was charged

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with these things. I absolutely did not want to believe it. He was my longtime friend. I

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never saw anything in his life or conversation and he was a guest in my home. I was a guest

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in his home. I saw him in many settings. I never saw anything that would indicate that

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he had these kinds of issues. And I haven't really defended him, but I did want to give

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him the benefit of the doubt. But I said, and I have a transcript here of what I said.

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I wanted to be very precise. I said, if I'm proven wrong, I will be the first to admit

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it. And then another time I said, if Mike Bickel has been found to do this, I will be

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the very first to admit that I'm wrong. Well, the first time we did it, Mike had not issued

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a statement. And then he issued a statement admitting that he had done something about

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25 years ago. That's a long time ago. And, you know, I wanted to believe that he would

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have an opportunity to be back in ministry and that kind of thing. I need to say that

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I was wrong. I did not have all the facts. I still don't have all the facts. And we're

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not here to discuss facts because facts change and sometimes they're obscured and sometimes

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they're hard to understand. But we need to talk about principles. So let me start by

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just asking you, why are the bigger principles that you see coming out of, you know, what's

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really become a very messy scandal up there in Kansas City?

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Yes, it's agonizing. You know, we started through broadcasts, smiling as friends. But

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these are things we've all been in agony over. I just wrote an article late last night, again,

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about the agony people are going through the upheaval, their worlds are turned upside down.

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I too, I don't I didn't know Mike as well as you did in terms of being in one of those

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homes as much and that kind of thing. But everything I knew about him would have told

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me this is not who he is. I never would have suspected this of him. But the charges, mounting

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charges, very credible, very serious and growing. So just shocking, terribly disheartening,

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the thought of what happens to the victims, the people that that were taken advantage

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of or sinned against. And then just throughout the body. I mean, Steve, it's it's extraordinary

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that people that have been praying for years, they're just questioning every why are we

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doing this and was this whole movement false? And so it's bringing tremendous of people.

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And then how do we handle it? You know, as as you know, you had General Fuller on the

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air, and he accused people in the advocacy group of lying, he since apologized to them

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privately. There was a misunderstanding, he got things wrong, he apologized that video

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was pulled out. But I think some of that might have been reiterated on your podcast. But

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there's so much emotion, so much pain, people re overreacting. So how do we handle this?

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What is the righteous way to handle this? And these are the things we have to talk through.

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I've been involved in and I'm actively working on this, that there will be a an oversight

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committee of leaders who can oversee an independent investigation that all of those who have come

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forth as victims would feel comfortable with participating in. And then once all of that

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is brought together on the one hand, it's released for the public, but you have a panel

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of independent elders looking at this and saying, this is the evaluation, these are

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right things to be done, because it's bigger than just a local church or ministry. And

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the, the confusion, the inaction has really hurt things all the more. I'm not pointing

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fingers, I'm just saying the fact it's dragged on so long, and we still don't know all that

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happened. It makes it all the more painful for everyone.

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Well, Mike has had a habit pattern over the years of not answering his critics. And there

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have been critics, not about this, but about his eschatology, his view of Israel, and so

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on and so forth. And, you know, there is a time and place when that is the right strategy.

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But in a situation like this, I believe that Mike needs to speak up. And the first time

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I did a podcast about it, he had an issued a statement at all. I was personally shocked

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at what he revealed, and then I sort of assumed, or maybe I wanted to assume that that was

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the extent of it. Of course, other things have come out since then. You have to ask,

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or at least I asked the question of why is it coming out now? Why didn't it come out

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years ago? And I believe that there is a spiritual aspect to this as there are every time there's

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a church fight, a division in the body of Christ, when there's animosity and hurt and

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hate, the enemy of our souls stir up things and so forth. And we have to recognize that

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this has really blown out of control. You know, Mike is not the first Christian leader

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to fall and won't be the last. And if we look at the Bible, nearly all the great people

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of the Bible had some pretty nasty things about them. You know, Moses murdered a man,

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David with Bathsheba, we could go right down the list. Yeah, God still somehow used them.

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It's not our place to try to understand exactly what God is doing in this situation. And,

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but obviously, God is trying to do something in the life of Mike Bickle and in that ministry,

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but there are bigger issues. And one of the issues that I wanted to raise that I haven't

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had a chance to talk to you about yet is the fact that some of the allegations are that

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Mike did something when he was in his early twenties with an underaged woman, which is

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a very serious charge. So here this happened before he even moved to Kansas City, according,

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you know, to the reports that have come out. And the question I have is especially in the

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society we live in, most leaders, most Christian leaders would have some would have done something

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that would be very embarrassing if it came out before. And so what about other leaders

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that may have something in their past that's been repented of? Can it be held over their

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heads and is it worth their ministry being scrubbed? I mean, these are things as Christian

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leaders that we need to deal with regardless of who the personalities are, or even the

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Christian leaders that may be grappling with this in their own life. Now, I want to be quick

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to give a disclaimer. I don't have this kind of secret, thank God, but it's only by God's

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grace that I don't. But I have done things that I would not want on the front page of

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the newspaper because it would be embarrassing. And so where is repentance? Where is restoration?

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And how long can these sins, I realize that there are statute of limitations in law and

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some things have no statute of limitations. We're not discussing the legal aspect I'm

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dealing with. What about other Christian leaders that may be in a similar situation and wondering

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what to do? Yes. All right. So let's let's understand that there are certain things that

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do disqualify from ministry, certain things that could disqualify for life. There are

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other things that can be dealt with proper repentance restoration. There are other things

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that are dealt with in private, right? So every one of us on the one hand has fallen short,

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every one of us fell short today somehow. We didn't perfectly love God or love our neighbor.

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We understand that at the same time, an elder spiritual leader is to be above reproach and

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to have a good reputation with the world. So people may hate you for the gospel, but

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you shouldn't have a reputation of being an alcoholic or out of control or getting in

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and fights and bars or whatever or stealing money from your job. So let's break this down.

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There are plenty of things that are rightly dealt with privately in house, and that's

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the righteous way to deal with it. For example, let's say that a pastor sits down with his

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elders and says, guys, I got to come clean. The last six months, I've been struggling

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with porn. I've gone to some foul websites and I just confessed it to my wife. It's

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not been a pattern of my life. I want to fix this. And together they say, right, let's

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get deeper accountability. Let's get to the root of this. Let's make sure that these things

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are clean in your life. You move forward. That's the headline news. You don't have to

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go before the whole congregation and step out of ministry for the rest of your life.

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You handle that in house. Let's say that somebody...

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If anything, Dr. Brown, is healthy to deal with things like that.

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Yes, exactly.

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Because you've opened yourself up to demonic attack in ways that you really need help.

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And this is where the Bible says those who have fallen, others help restore them. That's

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what you're describing.

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Yeah. So there are plenty of things that could happen. You could say that someone was

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a leader on your team. You noticed he was getting too friendly with someone of the opposite

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sex and said, hey, buddy, you got to draw some better lines here. It's like, oh man,

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you're right. I was careless here. Okay, headline news. That's not scandal waiting

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to come out. There can even be a situation where let's say a leader committed adultery

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and they had to step out of ministry. So they were sleeping with someone else. They had

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to step out of ministry. It's on their resume, but this is 30 years ago and they were restored

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and now they're doing effective ministry. It's not that they've buried it. It's just

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it was dealt with properly and they were not famous then. So it's broadcasted to the whole

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world, but it was dealt with. There was proper discipline. There was restoration. All these

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things are of one level, but there are other lines that are crossed. So these very credible

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accusations is actually from a second woman now of Mike having sexual relations with minors,

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with girls 14 or 15 or 16. That's of a whole other level or a series if it's if charges

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are true series of adulterous relationships over a period of decades. Now it's a whole

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different level. And Steve, what I honestly believe is this, if we messed up in some way,

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like I said, we all you said it, every all of us have messed up one way or another, every

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human being, the godliest person on the planet has messed up one way or another, but it's

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not a scandal. It's not some smoking gun. It's nothing that the public needs to know

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about. Okay, but why is it that some things do now come to public light? Right? To me,

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it has to mean that that there was something wrong somewhere. In other words, either the

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thing crossed a major line, like the charges against Mike with a minor. Okay, that can

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never be covered up. That was never righteous to cover them. You can't just deal with that

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and keep it secret, not that level. That's that's a warning for ministry for the rest

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of your life. That has to be a publicly known thing. If that was hidden, it has to come

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to light at some point. Or if there's been a continual pattern of sin, because God does

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not want to reveal our sins to the whole world. God's not into doing that if there's been

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true repentance and things have been dealt with righteously. So that would be the other

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thing. Otherwise, every one of us every day is looking over our shoulder. Is someone going

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to reveal that I said something to someone I shouldn't have? Or there was a wrong thought,

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you know, or this one little thing, this error, and it's shout out to the world, no, we can

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live free and clean, knowing our hearts are right with God and whatever things we've had

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to ever deal with, we've dealt with. If I send against my wife, you know, or it's not

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nice to her, I fix that with her. I don't have to worry about an audio playing for the

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whole world where I was short with her or something like that. So in my view, the only

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reason things would come to light and that God would allow it to come to light is either

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because the thing crossed lines and those lines are very, very serious and public, or because

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there was ongoing sin that was never repented of. Otherwise, God has no desire to hurt his

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people around the world and to bring reproach to the name of Jesus.

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So let's say that someone did something like you described that Mike did or the reports

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are that he did. Does this mean he should have never got into ministry in the first

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place, that the prayer movement should have never been launched? I mean, you know, where

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does this stop and where does it end?

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So if there was a pastor who was guilty over a period of years of sexually grooming and

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committing sexual acts with a minor, I don't see how that person could lead a ministry in

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the future. I could see ways with true repentance, restoration where they could serve in other

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ways under authority, but I don't see how they could be ministry. These here, just think

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of something like this. Let's just say there's a man who's struggled this whole life. He's

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attracted to minors. He's never acted on it, but now he finally acts on it and he abuses

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some 10-year-old kid. He repents. He goes to jail for it. Well, that person, now they're

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in your church. They could never do stuff with children. It's just, it's never going

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to happen even if they're truly changed. They cannot be a perfect reproach in that. It cannot

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avoid appearance of evil and potentially open doors to temptation. That's just a reality.

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It doesn't mean that he could never marry or have children of his own, but he couldn't

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do that in ministry. The fact is that God is only working through flawed vessels on

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the earth. Every vessel he works through, from the apostle Paul to any of us, is flawed

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in some way and he works through us and does amazing things through us, despite us. So

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whatever good came out of Mike's ministry, that was the gift of God. Much good has come

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out of it. And again, it breaks our hearts to think these things could be true about

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him. But it's God that did it. If the Holy Spirit heals someone through a person, that's

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the Holy Spirit who healed someone. If he helped grow a prayer movement through an individual,

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that's the Holy Spirit who did it. So any good that comes through any of us, any book that

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I write that impacts people, any article you put out that impacts people, that's God's

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grace working through us. And he only has flawed vessels to work with. Look, he worked

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through Samson, but then Samson's sin ended up destroying his life and hurting the nation.

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Let's talk about the people who've been hurt. And I'm not talking just about the victims

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themselves. Of course, that is the utmost importance. And there's professionals and different

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ones who can help. But I'm talking about sincere Christian people that joined the prayer movement

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that feel terribly let down. Even people in other cities that have picked up the vision.

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How do these people deal with it? And how do they move on?

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Yeah, it's tremendously painful. And we need to first really be in prayer for them and

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recognize, as you said, there is a spiritual attack. The devil wants to destroy the prayer

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movement. The devil wants to pull people away from Jesus. We understand that. So the first

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thing I would say to these individuals is what Paul wrote in Romans three. What if we're

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unfaithful? Does our unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? And he says, never. Rather,

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let God be true, but every human being a liar. So that's what we have to realize. Our unfaithfulness

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only magnifies God's faithfulness. I want to start there. The second thing is, it is

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God. If you're in a prayer movement, it's God who appointed you to pray, not any man,

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not any movement. Isaiah 62, God says of the watchman on the wall of Jerusalem, that

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the Lord himself has appointed you and that you were to give him no rest and give yourselves

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no rest until he establishes Jerusalem, the praise of the earth. You're doing sacred

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work in prayer and in worship. And 24 seven prayer was here long before any of us ever

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lived. We've been here centuries before. Singing scripture in worship has been here centuries

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before. This is just a particular new pattern in wine skin. So it's God who called you to

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pray. It's the Lord that you're worshiping, not a person. And this needs to deepen your

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resolve to all the more be faithful to the Lord. And you know that Jesus hasn't failed

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you. You can't look him in the eyes and say, Lord, you failed me. He'd say, it's the only

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reason you're standing is because I'm carrying you. The only reason you're being able to

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do anything good is because of my grace at work in you. And then the last thing is, you

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know, you and I were interacting and talking about Mike and we really didn't even think

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he was tempted in these ways, you know what I'm saying? Because he spent so much time

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with the Lord. Well, we can have an unrealistic view about people and Nancy whom you met my

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wife Nancy has always said to me, you know, Jesus never over exalted people. He was never

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gushing about this incredible man of God or incredible woman of God because he knew our

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frailty. So I want to honor those who have worked hard in the Lord. And to the extent

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that I know people well, I want to recognize the genuineness of their faith and many of

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them provoke me to jealousy with their walks. But at the end of the day, I realized they're

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just frail human beings. And no one is over exalted in my eyes. It's just the Lord that

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I want to exalt. And everybody else realized, hey, we're just servants. And on our best

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day, we still need the grace of God.

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Absolutely. What do you think the larger Christian community, what we call the body of Christ

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can learn from this moving forward? If it boils down to one thing, because I know a lot

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of people are watching this. In fact, you might share this video with people that you

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know are interested in this issue because we're dealing with it in a very different

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way that a lot of people are. A lot of people are just being hateful and just bashing the

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International House of Prayer, Kansas City bashing Mike Bickel. We're trying to be,

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at least I am, and I know you are too, trying to be redemptive in some way. So what lessons

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can be learned from this?

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Yeah, so let me make it personal and then corporate. On a personal level, we've got to be so careful,

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especially as leaders. And I say this with grief. I don't say this throwing stones. I

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say this with grief, knowing that God's had great mercy on me. Our sin can be so destructive.

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We can bring so many people into a crisis of faith for what? Nothing could possibly be

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worth the sinful pleasure of a moment. And what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10-12,

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if you think you stand, take heed lest you fall. Maybe we don't have some of the propensities

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that Mike has allegedly had. But every one of us has areas where if we're not careful,

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we could mess up. It could be with our food. It could be with our thought life. It could

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be with sexual sin. It could be gambling. It could be attitude. It could be pride. But

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every one of us has to walk humbly. And in that sense, walk with a limp. I walk with

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a limp before God. Thank God he's kept me from some destructive scandal that would destroy

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the ministry and hurt people's lives just as you thank God for his mercy. But I don't

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go around with some kind of haughty self-righteousness. There really is this reality for all of us.

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There go I, but by the grace of God. So be careful. If you're struggling right now, if

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you're on the verge of going, better to be ashamed now than to have everything come down

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around you. Better to take a little grief and get low now and make things right than

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to have everything come down around you. That's one thing. A second thing is that we must

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put our eyes on the Lord more than any other time. Steve, I've worked with leaders for

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decades and decades that have been faithful, solid marriages, no scandals surrounding

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their ministries. And these types of things are still shocking because they're not the

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norm. They're not what we expect. We've got to focus our eyes on the Lord more than ever.

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So that no human being can cause a crisis in our faith. And then lastly, we must establish

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better standards of accountability within the body, especially in our charismatic movement,

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which most of it is not within denominations and doesn't have formal structures. We've

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got to do better because anything goes and anything can be swept under the rug. And it's

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just, it's wrong. It's destructive. We need to establish more accountability within the

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body and then outside the body have structures where we can handle crises like this, have

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panels of leaders. One of my friends from the denominational background said, if you have

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a dispute like this, there's already a quarter of elders established within the denomination

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and the dispute is brought there. We don't have anything like that. We've tried to do

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it in makeshift ways. We're doing that now in the current situation, but we need greater

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accountability within the body. And with that, these scandalous things can be handled so

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much better. And then what has been horrific has been where there've been scandals in other

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churches, other leaders, and then the leadership turns it on the victim and says, you better

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be quiet because you're going to hurt the ministry. God forbid that we add devastation

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to the sin and sin against those people. That's one of the most despicable things a Christian

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leader can ever do. So we need to give attention to those who have been hurt, whether it's

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sexually abused or whether it's manipulated by abusive leaders and do our best to serve

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the body so that the body of Christ can find health. Boy, I agree with you and that's so

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wise and I appreciate you sharing your heart. I want to thank you for taking time to be

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on this podcast. I want to thank people for watching. If you haven't subscribed to my

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podcast, please do so. Hit the little bell so you're notified when we're live on Tuesdays

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and Thursdays at 4pm. Thank you for watching. God bless you.