Do This Right Now if You Want To Save Your Marriage | Feat. Pastor Julie Signorelli

Okay, welcome to our podcast on what men and women really Want.

We are in episode three, and hopefully you got your spouse with you, or if you're single, you're just holding space for them like this.

Just weeping right now, just waiting in the seat, waiting for your Boaz.

But my name is Mike Signorelli, and this is my beautiful wife, Julie, and we are here in New York City, and today we're going to talk about what men and women really want.

Men really want peace and solutions.

Okay.

And women really want to be heard and want to.

Want to be understood.

Okay?

Now, if you didn't pick up on it, these are two seemingly opposed ideas.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

So we're going to delve into that, and I want you guys to stay through the entire duration of this podcast because there's so many testimonies coming in about how this podcast is helping to heal relationships, restore relationships.

Like, people are getting their fire back.

They're rekindling.

There's people who are single who are, like, literally being prepared for marriage as a result of this as well.

So shout out to all the single folks.

All right, so here's the thing that's weird.

Yeah.

As a leader who leads multiple entities, we have a charity where we do disaster relief and provide food to people in different regions.

We have the church.

I have Mike Signorelli Ministries.

Like, there's a lot of.

I'm a filmmaker.

I have a movie that was in theaters, which, by the way, Domin Revival is online now.

You can watch it, you know, at Amazon and these different places.

My point is, I lead a lot of people.

I have a lot of staff members, and I actually get celebrated for my ability to solve problems.

You know where I'm going.

I know where I'm going.

Go ahead.

I solve problems for a living, and I get celebrated for that.

Like, people seek me out.

Like, I.

I have a.

I also have an association of churches called Movement, where lead pastors from all over the and even other countries are like, help me solve my problems.

So imagine what happens when I come into my own home and you are my kryptonite, because you don't want me to solve your problems.

You don't want me to give you solutions.

You don't want to give me a.

You don't want me to give you a plan.

You just want me to listen because you need to be heard and understood.

So on behalf of all of the men in existence, I just want to tell you a couple things.

Men.

And then I want to hear from you because we're going to, you're going to give up the playbook?

Going to try from the women.

I'm going to try.

If you think men, that making more money is going to cause you to be respected more in your own home.

Get that idea out of your head.

If you think that having staff members and multiple companies and different thing, like, if you think that there's some sort of status.

Because when I first got married to you, we had nothing.

No money, nothing.

And we were in survival mode and I was grinding out, working blue collar jobs, building houses, doing construction, driving trucks.

I did all that, right?

Oh, yeah.

Then in my mind I would think, one day, one day I'm gonna earn the right to be able to solve my wife's problems and be respected by my wife.

And here I am 20 years later and you still don't want me to solve your problems.

I still do not, no matter what.

I accomplish in my life.

So what that's telling me, and this sounds basic to some of you, this is just where we're starting.

But this is not basic because there are men who are like, oh, if I made more money, it, if I this, if I that.

It's like I'm telling you, like I've done all the things and that's actually not the case.

Right, right.

So what is going on in the female.

My brain.

In my brain.

Okay, So I.

Okay.

Early in our marriage, you just, I would be talking to you and you'd be like, yeah, all you got to do is this, this, this, this, talk to them here, do this, whatever.

I write it out for you.

In fact, here's a funny story I don't think I've ever told publicly.

Oh no.

How old was I?

23.

We were newly married.

So was that.

I was having problems.

I was having problems at work.

And you called my boss to fix it.

No, you know what?

That's, that's off topic because I set that dude correct.

I almost showed up to work and fixed the problem.

It was a man and a woman and you talked to both of them.

And so I go into my boss's office.

No, this is, I'm going somewhere.

I feel like the people are going to be with me on this.

Honest to God, I totally forgot this even happened until we were.

Until I was listening to you talk in this opener.

Cuz again, we have no notes and I had no warning we were doing this.

No notes.

So.

Oh yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So this is totally authentic.

Okay.

That's just a dog.

This is real.

This is Real life.

This is real life because we.

You're in our living room right now, and our dog is.

Was just dragged past us heaving, and my daughter exclaimed that he has to poop really bad, so we have no iPads.

Okay.

All right.

No, this is good.

We're leaving it in.

Yeah, we're leaving all this in because we're.

I said I want to do this authentic.

Yeah.

You know, because what happens is people to put, oh, I need a theologian.

Homie, you need to learn how to love your wife.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, okay, so back to my work story.

This is just.

Of course we're going to get into the scriptures, and we've done that in every episode.

But this is also, like, I want real authentic.

Yeah.

And the real authentic is our dog.

Dry heaving in the background and pooping simultaneously.

All right, so back to my story.

So I was having issues at work.

I came home talking about it for a few weeks and.

Weeks.

Weeks.

Stop justifying it.

Come on, man.

And so my lovely husband calls my place of employment and talks to both my bosses star, oh, this stupid dog.

Okay, you know what?

I spent two episodes singing how much I hate this dog.

Now you understand.

Matter of fact, this is vindication.

Yeah.

Look at him.

Just leave him.

He's good.

Here, get him out of here.

Oh, okay.

He's got it.

I can't concentrate.

This dog.

Look at this dog.

He loves me.

He loves me.

All right, don't let him unplug anything.

Oh, my God.

Just let him out the front.

Just let him out the front.

Just.

You gotta clean it up.

Okay, okay.

So for weeks, you're telling me about the female boss and the male boss.

Yes.

And all the things that they're.

They're doing wrong and how it's affecting you.

Yes.

And how it's.

And how it's making.

Making your life harder.

Yeah.

And you call them.

So no, wait, wait.

So I go to lunch and I come back and they were like, hey, so the boss wants to speak with you.

Which I'm, like, always a great employee.

Like, I'm a joy to work with.

And so I've never had.

I, like, never had that before.

So it was my first job out of college.

So I go and I sit down and they were like, so your husband called us today.

And bottom line is, and I think this actually ties in so perfectly because again, I totally forgot this even happened, is I didn't want you to fix my problem.

And I was so mad.

I didn't think, like, oh, he cares about Me.

He loves me.

He, you know, and granted, I was pregnant, so there was a lot of factors that made it, you know, like where you felt like there was possibly safety concerns and it wasn't like he just went above him.

I want to make it clear.

I took care of my own.

Yeah, but they were like.

So we talked.

So we met your husband.

We talked to your husband.

And I was like, so mortified.

I was mad at him.

I was not happy.

And I didn't respect.

Get out of here.

He needs a scratches.

I didn't respect him.

I didn't respect you more.

I was so mad.

And I was like, why the heck would you fix my problem?

Like, all I wanted to do is talk about my problem.

And I feel like a lot of men, they just don't want to take the time to listen to their wife.

See what I said about this dog loves me.

Here, you gotta go, buddy.

So here, I'll get the dog out.

Maybe you.

Star, listen, listen, Star, you're gonna get fixed.

Look, he's licking all over me after your dry heaving son.

Did he go?

All right, Go upstairs.

Go upstairs.

Oh, now look, he listens.

He listens to me.

He does.

Okay, but let me break it down from my perspective now.

Go ahead.

So.

Because the men watching are going to get my back and even some of the women.

So I have a pregnant wife.

Yeah.

And they're making you do all kinds of work that a pregnant woman shouldn't do.

And you had a people pleasing complex.

Yes.

And you are not sticking up for yourself.

Now, first of all, in my opinion, because I'm old school, I thought like, how dare you even ask a pregnant woman to do this stuff?

Especially advanced pregnancy.

Yeah.

And so if you're stupid enough to even have a pregnant woman doing this stuff, you're gonna get sunned.

That's what we call it.

You're gonna get a phone call.

And I literally, I mean, I kid you not, because you complained to me for like three weeks.

So imagine I have a pregnant woman who's coming to me saying, they're making me do this and they're making me do that.

And the whole time you're talking this thing and I'm, I'm thinking myself, they're going to either figure it out or I'm gonna help them figure it out.

And you did.

The call was the warning.

Just to be clear, we resolved it in one phone call.

So there was.

What happened was.

I'll never forget.

I made.

I called and I said, hey, hey, how are you doing?

Can I talk to whatever her name was Sherry or something.

And I said, you know, can I talk to so and so.

And they're like who is this?

I said this is Mike Signorelli.

And they're like are you a customer?

I was like no, I'm the husband of Julie Signorelli and we need to talk immediately.

And so all of a sudden this woman comes on.

I'm like listen, I'm going to make this very, very clear.

We're going to talk and then I'm going to talk to Brad after you.

So you might as well.

Whatever that guy's name was, you were close.

Don't say his name.

You know, Brad.

Now this is 20 years ago by the way, this story.

And I said then we're going to talk to Brad together.

And I just laid it down.

I said she's pregnant.

And.

And pregnant women don't do these jobs like this.

And you need to find one of those other guys to do it.

And you know, she can find something.

And I just basically owned your workplace.

And then Brad got on the phone and said listen Brad, this is Mike.

And no, this.

I feel like his Internet name but man, it's freakishly close.

Okay.

But I remember like I.

That I could have got in trouble because.

And I don't recommend this and I'm not glorifying but I did threaten him.

I.

I did say.

I said I got that.

I got that sense when I walked in.

But I said Brad, I'm going to tell you this.

I said I talked to you.

I talked to Sherry a little nicer than I'm going to talk to you.

I said Brad, if.

If I find out that my wife has done A, B and C, I'm not going to reveal what the work was.

Yeah.

Because I keep the.

I deemed it some.

You have your pregnant wife do.

I said I'm going to come to your job and I'm going to break your face.

Like that's what I told Brad, don't do that.

And I.

And I said, and I said that it's.

It' as simple as that like you.

And I said I don't know if anybody ever told you but pregnant women are a unique population that have to have you considerations and you need to make some accommodations because that's fair.

And.

And I will say I was treated very nicely from that moment on with a lot of accommodations and care and.

Receive that to me is a lot treatment.

Yeah.

That was like you accidentally me because I solved your problem for real.

Cuz women miscarry Doing manual labor and stuff like that.

It actually.

I mean, truthfully, like, we're laughing about it, but it actually could have, like, compromised our child.

But Bella's great.

She's doing well.

She's great.

But to.

To help you.

Yeah.

I do feel like that there needs to be a counterbalance of knowing when.

Okay.

Because I get stuck in that mode and I'm just like.

My way of relieving stress is solving problems.

Yeah.

So I'm confrontational because conflict delayed as conflict multiplied.

Yeah.

So a lot of times I'm like, no, no, this is going to get worse.

I need to do something now.

And one of the things about, like, high capacity leaders is you'll notice they're very impulse driven.

Because they're like.

Because that's how I relieve stress.

Right, Right.

But then doing that for you all the time actually increases stress increase.

And that's.

I want to help you.

Yeah.

You're partially right.

Yeah.

It didn't.

It didn't increase intimacy emotionally.

It actually made me afraid to tell you things because I thought I was gonna physically.

But.

But not even that.

I mean, things like, you know, let's say I'm having like a conflict with somebody.

You know, I'm thinking like years ago.

Yeah.

You know, you would be like, well, what you gotta do is, blah, blah.

And I'm like, okay.

But that's not really what I want to talk about.

What I really want to talk about is how it's affecting.

Affecting me and what.

You know what I mean?

So.

Or maybe it's a.

A problem, you know, physically, or whatever it is.

It's like you just constantly went into fix it mode.

And so what that did was it made me shut down.

It made me shut down.

Maybe it doesn't for everybody, but that's how I felt.

Yeah.

And.

And I think that I failed in that way because.

And this is my frustration is that.

I'm like, hey, man, Brad's doing great.

I'm willing to break Brad's face for you.

Where's my respect, girl?

And.

But then when I applied that way of thinking to every situation, it becomes counterintuitive because before I went into fix it mode, you trusted me with your problems, and then now you don't.

But I think the compromise is like.

And I.

If I could say this to the women.

Sure.

The compromise is if you never want him to fix anything, you are emasculating him.

Right.

That was exactly what I was going to say.

But then on the other end of the spectrum, you know, to the Men, if you always feel like you need to fix it, you're probably failing in.

And that's why I think sometimes the women have these great friendships with other women.

Because I used to listen to you and your best friend on the phone, and it was so annoying to me because I would be like, that was the most worthless compliment.

We talked about this.

They would talk.

They talk on the phone for an hour, and they'd hang up, okay, I feel so much better.

And I'd be like, that was the most worthless conversation I've ever heard in my life.

You didn't offer one idea, one solution.

Nothing changed.

But you vented.

And that, to me, is two women venting to each other is more valuable than a man actually fixing it.

And that broke my brain.

Yeah.

And so I had to just be like, okay, but here's the thing.

I can't be mad at you for going to your girlfriends when I've created a relationship where you can never vent.

Right.

Right.

So sometimes.

And I mean.

Or the safety of the information, it's like, yeah, sometimes I just need to know, like, it stays between us.

Well, you know, don't be complaining around me, because you're all having a meeting.

And they're like, who is this?

I'm from corporate.

We're gonna have a talk.

Sherry, sit your butt down.

And the funny thing is, I was 23 years old doing this.

Like, that's kind of unhinged.

But.

Yeah, but my.

What I was going to say, though, to vindicate you is, you know, in the early days, when I learned this concept, and first of all, I had to ask you, so, like, hey, Julie, you know, like, what's going on?

Is everything okay?

And, like, literally let you dump.

Yeah.

And then.

And the thing that was crazy about is, like, I would be sweating bullets.

Oh, you would see me sweating?

No, like, shaking.

You guys think we're joking.

Like, we're not joking.

He'd be listening.

And, I mean, there would be beads, like, pulling, like, down his face.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so intense.

And then he would be like, mm.

Well, because she's telling me about this family member did this.

This person did this.

And to me, my brain is going a million miles a minute, and I'm like, I'm about to go beast mode.

I remember one time I was talking about something, and you didn't offer any solutions, and I was like, what?

What are you going to say?

And you're like, the only thing I can respond with is out how to fix it were like, do you want to hear it?

I was like, oh, heck, yeah.

And you were like, like, bring up the whiteboard.

Like, get it all.

No, no, he didn't do that.

But I was, like, offended when you didn't, so it's like sometimes you could wish, like, I.

I wish my husband would never fix a problem.

It's like, okay, but then delete that out.

Sometimes your husband just wants to be heard.

Because what I realized is in you trying to fix it, you were dealing with.

With your own emotions of how it affected me.

Does that make sense?

So, like, it.

Even if I didn't take your advice, you getting it out was simply you dealing with now this whole new set of emotions that you didn't have 20 minutes ago, but do now.

Because I.

I told you about how I was hurt or frustrated or whatever, and it's like, I feel the same way.

It's like when you come to me with someone's, you know, like a conflict or inner something interpersonal.

It's like they're talking about you like that.

Like, you know, like, it.

Now I have something I have to deal with.

So what I've learned is, like, you processing that has much more to do with your emotions about the situation than it does about if I take your advice or not.

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, there's a lot of women who are content with their husband fixing their furnace, but not fixing their problems.

Right.

And sometimes that can be confusing to a man.

So it's like, you want me to fix your flat tire, but I can't talk about this, and then it can, you know, so it's a compromise, I think, you know, and you've got to find.

So I would say, like, to.

To the men, you know, it's like, just try to listen.

Don't call their boss.

There's a.

Well, yeah.

Yeah, well.

Or call your.

Call their boss when they need to get a phone call.

Don't call Brad.

Brad's for good.

He's fine.

Well, you know, and I've had to learn all that in the nuance to it.

When do you do it?

When do you not?

Right.

But I think at the same time with.

With all this, like, marriage stuff is it's about trust, you know, and so.

And learning each other.

Because there are times where you come to me saying, I actually need you to fix this.

Oh.

And I would say, like, over time before, I never wanted you to fix anything for, like, years.

And then I was like, no, this man got me.

Like, he's got my back.

He's looking out for me.

Like we're.

We're thick, you know, and so it's like, now it's implied.

Like, if I'm coming to you, I want your advice, you know?

Yeah, but that's trust.

That was.

But sometimes that was built with trust.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes we just verbally process.

You did that the other day.

You were like, hey, I need to get these feelings out.

I don't care.

You.

Not like you didn't care what I thought, but, like, you didn't want me to make you.

You didn't want me to try to make you feel better.

You were like, I just need to get this out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that.

And I was, like, just sitting there because everything in me wanted to start encouraging and.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

I go through, like, a lot of complex emotions, and I think a big myth is that men don't have emotions or men don't feel, you know, feelings.

Matter of fact, I always say when I'm preaching about gossip, everybody assumes I'm talking about women and I'm actually talking about men because men tend to be the biggest gossipers in any church.

And it's funny to me because men are incredibly emotional, and they.

What happens is they find little, like, pockets of friendships where they can deal with their emotions.

And.

And so when you.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they're effeminate, but what it means is that men.

The perception of men is they don't have feelings or emotions.

The reality is they have big feelings and big emot.

And.

And I even think that sports sometimes becomes a.

A socially acceptable place to allow big emotions out.

Do you think that, like.

Let's just talk about that for a minute.

So men who have issues with gossiping, it could be that their wife doesn't feel safe enough for them to talk to.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, and so maybe wives, that's a challenge for us.

Like, maybe we need to be listening and not try to correct them.

Not be their mom when they're talking to us.

Be their confident, be their lover, be their listening ear, you know, for when you do have big emotions.

I know for me in the car the other day, I mean, I felt like you.

I was sweating.

I'm like, I have so many scriptures to help you.

And.

But that's not.

You didn't want that.

You wanted just to talk, just to.

Download it and be like, hey, because.

Yeah, I mean, I experience a lot of.

You know, And.

And the other thing, too, is I'm pioneering.

I'M pastoring a lot of people.

I'm leading a lot of pastors over our locations.

I care deeply about our men's ministry, our women's ministry, our kids ministry, our youth ministry, and I carry the burden of all of those generations of our church.

I.

I carry the burden of the genders, the male and the female.

There's only two.

I carry the burden of who, you know, dealing with social issues.

Because people look to me now.

I mean, I get millions of views on videos when I talk about things, because people are saying, I don't know if I trust the news media, but I trust Pastor Mike, even if he doesn't know all of the details.

He's a godly man.

He's a man of the word, so you carry all that.

And the other day I was just like, hey, you know, this is what I'm processing.

It's weird to get hundreds of messages from people saying, would you go live and talk about this thing or that thing?

And you're pulled in every direction.

And I was like, I just need to figure this out because I want to be the best, you know.

But, like.

And so I think even for problem solvers, there's going to be problems you can't solve, you know, and we have this phrase that we use in leadership where we say, that's attention to be managed, not a problem to be solved.

So, for example, like, I'm not going to quit the church.

You know, like, I'm not going to quit the church.

I'm not going to quit my marriage.

I'm not.

This is not a problem to be solved.

Like, this is attention to me manage.

And as a man, I have to deal with being so many roles.

You know, men wear a lot of hats.

And so it was like me going through that.

And I think a lot of times, like, even for men, it's funny because they'll get together with other men and have conversations, and they, they.

They will say things to men that they know will be agreed with, and they'll agree with each other or they won't judge.

So a lot of times, like, male relationships will be like, oh, yeah, bro, I'm here for you.

Like, oh, yeah, bro, that, you know, like, it's.

There's a weird loyalty they have now.

Some of that can become demonic and toxic because what a male friendship should be is an accountability circle.

But a lot of times it becomes a gossip circle because it's like, what happens is your wife tells you this is the other side because you just talked about, we need a Listener, Amanda.

But the other side is sometimes the wife is the only accountability the husband has, because the husband goes into the friend circles and goes into an echo chamber where they all agree with him, and instead of holding him accountable, and so sometimes you got to watch that.

So I would say to the men right now, like, sometimes your wife is right, and you started telling her stuff and you didn't like what she said back, and you started yelling and getting mad.

But your friends are not even good friends to you because they didn't hold you accountable to God's word and the truth.

And.

But your wife did.

But I'll.

I'll.

I'll counterbalance a little bit with that, because sometimes women can be very hard on men.

Oh, absolutely.

And when they do, you know, if.

If a man struggles with pride and then they do become vulnerable enough to share something on their heart that they're struggling with.

When we come at you with, yeah, I told you that was gonna happen.

It's like, all that trust, that thing that.

That vulnerability that took him so much to bring the guard down, it's like, was met with I told you so.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like, as women, I'm really challenging you to be a safe place for your husband when he is vulnerable.

Don't try to fix it either with I told you so, or trying to be their mom or trying to be, you know, somebody who's like, oh, this is a vulnerability.

I'm gonna take my jab.

Yeah, that's exactly what you get.

You got a temper or whatever.

It.

You know, whatever.

I'm just kind of filling in the blank.

It's like, you've.

If don't ever elevate your need for vindication above their need for vulnerability.

Right.

So it's like, oh, I told you so.

The.

Your need for vindication just superseded their need for vulnerability.

So sometimes it's not I told you so.

Sometimes it's like, I'm just going to let you tell me how you feel and let.

Let you process this, because I know.

A lot of women were probably listening to you being like, yeah, get them, Pastor Mike.

But, like, I'm listening to you, and I'm like, no, ladies, take a seat.

Like, you have something to learn here.

Yeah.

Because I always think people default.

Like, oh, yeah, the.

Is the best communicator.

It's like, not always the case.

You know, sometimes we can use our communication to really stab.

Oh, yeah.

And something.

I did that.

Oh, yeah.

I've got stab wounds all over me.

Watch it.

Oh, you could go ahead, but.

But I mean, here's the thing.

You know, maybe we'll kind of like wind down here, but.

But I'm going to save the mic drop.

Like, we're going to go for the grand finale right now, but I need you to tap the subscribe button and this is a four part series and I want you to binge watch all four of them.

And by the way, if you are in one night, you probably cried, you probably laughed, and this is helping you so much.

So go ahead and just tap the subscribe button right now and join the channel and.

Okay, so here's what I wanted to say.

You know, talking about vindication versus vulnerability because your marriage should be the place where you're the most vulnerable.

And oftentimes it feels like the.

The place where you could be the least vulnerable.

And, you know, we had a conversation in Brazil that was one of.

I mean, yeah, we.

So what happened was some dear members of our church that have been with us from the beginning.

Yeah.

And they've never left.

They've.

They've stayed faithful.

They've.

You know, they, they're just a good family, like great Christian family.

Great, great.

So essentially they were doing their.

A big wedding ceremony.

I don't know how to put it, but they were, they were basically going to Brazil to be like, hey, they're renewing their vow.

Yeah, they're renewing our vow.

We never had the ceremony that we wanted, but we're gonna do the one we always wanted in Brazil where, Where the, where the bride is from.

And we want you guys to be the efficient.

And for us, that was a big sacrifice to like go all the way out there.

But we just love this couple.

And they've been so faithful to our house.

And I was like, julie, we.

I want to be faithful to their house.

You know what I mean?

They've.

They've served V1.

We want to serve them.

Let's go.

Let's do this thing.

So we go to Brazil and you know, and I was like, you know what?

Let's take some time for us, you know, and man, we had a conversation at breakfast, which I'm not going to divulge.

Yeah, please don't, because that's.

But it was like, like you unfiltered told me the secrets of your heart.

And these are things that wives don't tell their husband.

They go to the grave with this information, literally.

And then that caused me to unlock the secrets of my heart.

And I realized in that moment that we are the same person.

And it was like, whoa.

We both struggle with the same things.

We both worry about the same things.

And in God's divine wisdom, he brought us together.

Yeah.

And our.

Our greatest ally was each other.

Our greatest support was each other.

And that conversation, I mean, we literally cried over our breakfast together.

And that.

And I.

That was one of those moments where I was like, you know, independent of kids, independent of ministry.

You know, because before all of that, there was Mike and Julie, and it had.

Our stuff.

Had nothing to do with ministry.

Nothing to do with ministry.

Nothing.

Have.

But I'm saying, like, we built our life.

Right.

But the foundation.

Yeah.

Is just me and you.

And.

And it's like we went back to that place and I was like, wow.

You know, because kids are a temporary assignment.

Yes.

They grow up, they leave the home, they get married, you know, the church.

I'm not always going to be the lead pastor of V1 Church.

I'm just the founding, first lead pastor there.

You know, if the Lord tarries, there will be generations, like presidents.

You know, it's like you have.

I'm just George Washington of this thing.

I'm the founding father.

That doesn't mean I'm the only father.

And so those are all.

What does that mean?

Those are temporary assignments.

But the vows that we made were for death do us part, which means the way you get out of a covenant is dying.

And that is.

That's heavy.

And so I felt like when we were in Brazil, we went back into that foundation where it was like, yeah, like, we.

This really works because we.

Ve.

We very much God.

God knew what he was doing out of billions of people, and we chose.

Right.

Yeah.

And the reason why I think it's important to say that is because I feel like that conversation was earned.

I was just thinking that it was 20 years of trust.

Building trust, you know?

Yeah.

Those.

And I.

I think those are like treasures.

Yeah.

You know, when it's like 20 years and you.

We.

We earned.

It was like, oh, this is a lot of mistakes.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I.

I can't tell you how many times I broke your heart, misplaced your trust, you know, took my cheap shots where I could.

When you came to me with something vulnerable.

I mean, more times than I care to remember.

Yeah.

I keep thinking about this story of when you and my brother Maddie, redid my office in Valparaiso.

Yeah.

Because.

And, you know, you painted.

Didn't you paint the walls, like, green or something?

You know what?

It was during that era where all the design shows were designing a Room in one day.

And I thought, I could do that.

I cannot do that, by the way.

But me and your brother.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In a day.

Yeah.

While you were painted, you know, everything.

And I remember coming home, and that just made me feel so special because it made me feel like, man, my wife really loves me.

She really wants to create this space because, you know me, like, my whole thing is my worlds.

Everybody who really knows me is the world within the world.

I say that phrase, it's a world within a world.

Like, that concept to me.

And I've always been like, I make spaces.

Our house has all these little spaces.

Yeah.

Little.

Like, little worlds.

And they're so distinct.

And I had a guest over today and a good friend of mine, Lee Cummings, actually.

And you guys could watch that podcast.

But, you know, when I was giving him a tour of our house, it really is.

Oh, I said, we do this over here.

We do that.

It's these little worlds.

And you had invested in my world, you know, like, you helped me create my world.

I think a healthy marriage is renovating each other's worlds, where it's like, I think I know what Julie likes, and I'm gonna help her renovate her world.

Like, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna help her flip this.

You know, like, it's like, I had some furniture in my office that was old, and you painted it, and you made it look new.

Remember that?

So I think it's like, when you come into a healthy marriage, you bring furniture and.

And you bring your stuff.

You know, I'm talking metaphorically.

And then what happens is, like, if you're a good spouse, you renovate it.

You know, when you're like, oh, hey, look, let me show you what I can do with that dresser.

Like, let me show what I can do with that trauma.

Let me show what I can do with that pain.

Let me show what I can do with that.

And it's like, you're flipping each other's trauma.

You're flipping each other's pain, and you're renovating each other's lives.

And.

But.

But.

And I.

And the reason why I say that is because you're.

That you don't rent.

It's like, I didn't renovate my own office.

You did it for me.

And then I remember.

And then obviously I did it for you here in this house.

You renovated way more rooms for me.

Yeah, I got one, though.

Yeah.

So it's like, what would your marriage look like if you let your spouse renovate your pain?

What would You.

What if you unlock the door, let him into the hidden room, and said, here's all my old furniture.

Here's all my trauma.

And I'm gonna let you.

I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna let you paint it.

I'm gonna let you change.

I'm gonna let you.

Let's see what you'll do with it.

Like, what if we thought about our secrets as furniture to be renovated?

Like, what if we.

You know.

And I think for me and you, it's like that.

That, to me, has been one of the greatest joys.

Like, when your father died, that.

That was a gravitational force that pulled us together in a closeness we never experienced, because it was like your whole life you had a father, and the first day you were fatherless was the first day you understood aspects of me.

Oh, yeah.

That you had never.

Yes, absolutely.

It was like.

And I remember you looking at me, and it was like you were looking at me through the eyes of pain, and you were saying, you felt this.

This is what you felt.

I'm never gonna get a hug again from Randy.

No one's ever gonna call me on the phone.

And I remember you would, like, slow down, and you would look at me with these eyes, and it was like something was.

The wheels were turning, and you were like, this is the brokenness.

This is why you couldn't enjoy Christmas.

I was.

Was.

I was understanding it from a place of having had it and knowing how good it was and understanding the pain of what it would feel like to have never had it at all.

And that was a tremendous bridge of empathy in our marriage.

You said, I'm fatherless now.

Yeah.

We shared that suffering together.

Yeah.

And for those of you who are the real ones who have been watching these, this goes back to the episode where we talked about the me sabotaging holidays, because suddenly your perspective on holiday started to change.

Yeah.

I'm not getting a call on my birthday from my dad.

I'm not.

And tainted it.

I remember, like, I.

Because you would be like, it's.

Who cares?

Whatever.

And.

But I understand that feeling because you're like, if I ain't gonna celebrate Christmas with my dad, like, who cares?

Yeah.

And you had to find, like.

And I.

And now I'm like, ah, that's what it was, you know?

Yeah.

And it was like.

But then what's crazy?

And, like, this is how God works.

Because I had to learn how to find joy in the midst of my own personal pain and stop sabotaging everybody's experience.

And it was so Weird, because I was an orphan and I was fatherless and I was.

Was the one sabotaging.

And then I had to figure it out.

So I said, no, I'm not going to do this.

I'm not going to pass that to my children.

I'm not going to put this into my marriage.

And I started figuring it out.

And then by the time you this, and I'm telling you in the alt, this is God's ultimate twist of fate, is the fatherless husband that ruined the first part of your marriage ended up being the teacher to guide you through fatherlessness, to heal the next season.

Like, if that to me is mind blowing, that's worth the price of admission for this podcast.

Yeah, like that.

That is why these messages need to.

Get shared and take our pain and don't make the same mistakes.

Right?

Like, because I, if I could have sat Mike and Julie down and I would have looked him in her eyes and I would say, you guys don't understand your soul mates.

You don't understand Julie, you don't understand.

You're going to lose Randy and Mike, you're going to figure out, you're going to be known for the one who makes the memories on the holidays, and you're going to teach her how to actually heal through a season of fatherlessness.

You're going to become.

And you wouldn't believe it, but the crazy thing is we can't go back.

And you and young, you would have never believed if I showed up and I'm from the future.

And Mike, you're going to actually teach her how to be happy on Christmas.

Oh, my gosh, that makes me want to cry.

I'd be like, what?

And then, Julie, you're going to understand him in a way you never thought imaginable.

We.

We couldn't have understood it.

Right.

So why do I say that?

For your marriage?

The reason why I say that is those who have the greatest capacity to hurt have the greatest capacity to heal.

Yeah.

Those who have forgiven much, love much.

It's what the word of God says.

So in a marriage, learn how to forgive.

Learn how to release.

Learn.

Learn how.

You know.

70.

The Bible says 70 times 7.

Why?

Because.

Was I.

Was Mike doing something against you or was Mike responding to a lifetime worth of pain?

Right.

So you keep forgiving me, knowing that I'm on a journey.

Right.

Because then.

And you did.

Ultimately, you did.

We had a lot of fights, a lot of arguments, but then what happened was you had been sowing seeds of reconciliation and healing, and in your greatest Moment of need I was able to walk you through because I remember you were saying a lot of dark stuff.

Yes.

It was not a good thing.

You were like, man.

And you started to.

And it was so scary because you started to act like the younger version of me.

Yeah.

And I saw the father wound.

You literally said, yeah, nobody really loves me.

My dad really loved me.

These people are fake.

And that was like, that's the orphan spirit.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And I'd be like, no, Julie, like, they do love you.

And.

But no one's gonna love you like your biological father.

But that doesn't mean that their love's not real.

Nobody's gonna love you like your heavenly father, but that doesn't mean that their love's not real.

And I was like, literally speaking to me.

Yeah.

And it was like a mind blowing experience where I was like, whoa.

But see, God knew that.

And this is the never tell you in marriage is that if you live long enough, you all become fatherless.

Right.

If you.

So what happens the longer you're married is you share scars, you share wounds.

And that's why the Lord's placed you together for co laboring for companionship, to carry each other.

So I want to give you the closing thought, by the way, and let me just state for the record, you know, when we started this, you were like, come on, let's just get this over with.

And every episode it's been like 45 minutes.

Tell my business.

And I think it's been beneficial.

And I've.

We've enjoyed having the conversations with you, we've enjoyed typing you back, and all the testimonies are blowing our minds.

And that's why we do this.

And you know, we.

We have, I mean, Bible studies and all that.

And of course, all of this is scriptural, it's biblical.

But instead of going through like the.

The cleverly written script, I said, julie, what if we just got together and we just.

You brought like physically brought them into our living room so that.

That's where you're at right now.

This, this is our home.

And your family was our dog.

That was our dog.

And your family is your resume.

Yeah.

Not your.

Not fill in stadiums, not best selling books, not launching campuses, not writing the worship songs that are sung in many languages.

Not.

Not hundreds of people clapping for you.

Your biggest accomplishment, your true resume, is your family.

And you know, I'll say this, and I want you to close it out.

You know, there's a renowned man of God.

Renowned man of God.

You would know him.

Everybody Watching would.

Would know him.

He's since passed away and his wife married again.

And they asked him the.

They asked her the question, you seem so much happier in your second marriage, but how could this be so?

Because you were married to one of the greatest men of God in recorded history.

Like, you know, surely, you know, that was a great marriage, but you seem happier now to this guy.

And she literally said, my first husband loved Jesus, but my second husband loves me.

That's the famous quote.

My first husband loved Jesus.

My second husband really loves me.

And I think that there's a lot of guys watching right now that they need to learn how to, like, really love.

Not, do not.

Oh, I know.

I love my wife.

No, no.

Does your wife feel loved?

Yeah, it's true.

I mean, I know, like, when people ask me questions, they ask me a lot of questions about you, especially when they come to our church.

And it's funny because I have to, like.

Like, think, like, oh, they're asking in the context of the church, but my first thought isn't about the church.

It has nothing to do with the church.

My first thought is all the, like, our life, like, our real life, you know?

So it's just so interesting you would say that, because I don't ever think about you as a pastor.

I have.

That's why I have to call you Pastor Mike, because I have to, like, put myself in a position to remember, like, oh, my gosh, we're pastors.

You know, Like, I.

Sometimes when we're laughing and where I.

I.

Not that I forget, but, like, I don't think about you like that.

So it's.

Wow, I like that you said that.

That's nice.

I had never heard that before.

Yeah.