The Fight for His Life: Carl Lentz on Spiritual Warfare and Redemption

Carl Lentz.

You're here.

My brother Mikasa.

I'm in your house here in New York City.

Incredible.

Yeah, I, I really appreciate you, brother.

I think I, I, we talked a little bit beforehand.

When you meet people in New York that are about the, the right kind of grind, it just resonates with me.

And you've always been that you've always been somebody who's about people and about letting people know there's.

There's a living God.

You can, you can know him or not, but you're gonna love people either way.

And I think it's.

It's really special.

My.

My.

My heart, when I come back to New York, it just, you know, just fills up with now gratitude and love.

There was like a.

A little period.

There was tough to.

Tough to function even coming back here.

But seeing men like you, it's just cool, man.

I'm really proud of who you are and, and what you represent, and it's cool to be in your house, brother.

Man, I didn't know we were gonna start with me crying.

Yeah, well, like, it means a lot hearing you say that, because you've been here in the mean streets, you know, this life, and it's.

It's incredibly vindicating.

You know, there's been.

I tell people New York City is like the Vietnam of church planting.

So because you see so many of your fallen brothers, and I, I, I.

Who's that guy from Forest Gump?

Captain Dan.

Yeah, Lieutenant Dan.

Lieutenant Dan.

I tell because people, I'm like, I'm not that good.

I'm Lieutenant Dan.

Like, I'm the dude that's like, I'm missing an eye, my limbs, and I just wield myself out for this interview because I just.

I.

But what I do say is I got that cockroach anointing.

Yeah.

You know, it's like you can drop in a nuke.

You've kind of got that on you.

Or zombie mode, I call it, where it's like, you can't kill me a second time already dead.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

He.

One of my friends who's not a Christian, who I love.

He was like, you know, you.

You're like kind of like a cockroach.

And I'm like, you want to fish for another metaphor, my brother?

You know what I mean?

Like a phoenix.

I'm like, let's go with Phoenix.

Like, I know what you're about to say, but, yeah, it's just a little Hit a nerve.

Yeah.

So funny.

I just own.

I just, man.

Well, you know what?

It's like this guy, Jonathan Khan, I was reading one of his books and this is a mind blowing revelation.

He was talking about how Satan was referred to as a serpent in.

In the Genesis and then a dragon in Revelation, which is coldblooded, like reptilian.

And then obviously Christ being the lion of the lamb, which is warm blooded.

And the whole revelation was cold blooded.

You, you're fast, but you don't have endurance.

And then warm blooded is for the long old like you.

You're an endurance creature.

I love that.

And so I feel like, you know, for us, the warm blooded individuals.

Yeah, we just, we're just still here.

Yeah.

You know, we're still rocking.

And so for you to show up, for you to be here, as a matter of fact, it's kind of serendipitous.

I.

I think I'll at least mention this.

Yeah.

You know, I just hit a million subscribers.

Come on, somebody.

And the whole thing was like, man, when we hit a million, I'm gonna have Carl come.

And it was.

I love this idea of dancing on the graveyard.

Yeah.

And it was like you and I had in my mind this triumphant thing where I'm like, New York City church planter with New York City church planter.

Carl comes back to New York City and I hit a million subs.

And dude, you can't make this up.

Go.

Can you grab your thing?

Yeah, I'm do.

Yeah, yeah.

Here.

Maybe.

Evan, we're gonna flex it.

This is a.

Is this a soft.

I don't.

I don't even.

I don't even think we can color this with a flex.

I like to look at it as.

What a great thing.

This is incredible.

Talk about it.

Well, can we pawn it?

Is this real gold?

One thing I love about being out of a little bit of the church mix is the fake humility that, that people don't use in the morals.

Rebuke me, apostle.

No, no, no.

You, you, you.

You can.

It's actually a pretty incredible thing to invade a space that's filled with so much stuff that's not helping people.

Yeah.

And you went in there with the really simple message, bro, and God's really blessed it, so it's awesome to see.

Yeah.

Apologize for nothing.

And.

And thank you for that.

Thank you for that.

Because you can't fake your way to this.

No.

And the thing is, like, people know you.

It's.

They know.

So long story short, this is where this becomes like a movie moment.

This to me, right.

I come out here, I start the church with 18 people, we launched seven campuses a decade later.

And then the whole joke was, I'm going to hit a million subscribers and then Carl's going to come, whatever.

So then my assistant.

So you're on the way, right?

So you're coming.

And then my assistant sends me a message saying, you'll never believe this.

Your gold play button tracking information just came in and it's literally getting delivered today.

So, like, you and the button showed up at the same time.

Let's go.

I mean, it's just one of those weird things.

It's, it's.

It's a.

It's a staple of kind of what, what God's doing with you.

I also say this to the, the millions of people that watch.

So you are, I think the young.

The young people still say a real one.

When you make decisions that are hard and you fall, you know, some people don't stick around.

And we've known each other for years from different angles.

But you didn't abandon the field, you know, And I think that's really special.

And I just want to.

For the people that do follow you and trust you and love you, for as a former minister that broke people's trust.

It's cool to be able to always point to people who say you're a man of integrity and, and I think it's really special.

But that's, that's who this guy is.

He's not the.

He's not the guy who talks and then doesn't show.

You've always been encouraging to me and my family, and I appreciate it.

I'll never forget it.

I have a great long memory, the right way, short memory on the.

On the wrong stuff.

Great memory on the other stuff, like people who are faithful.

And Chris Durso is another guy in the city that is.

There's just some.

There's some real people out there.

So the guy that has ministered to you for a long time and does so probably daily, people who are a part of this movement, ministries.

He's the, he's the real deal.

You're a real guy.

Come on, man.

That means a lot.

Well, that's one of the things I love about New York City is they know real.

Knows real.

And it's like, man, you can get away with some stuff outside of New York City, but you come in here and they're.

They're not having it.

You know, there's a reason why I came from Indiana and, like, I'm still here.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I don't know if you do that.

Do you have guest speakers at your church?

Yeah, sometimes.

There was a guy who came through to preach one time at Hillsong, and I had him slated to do a couple.

And then after the first one, I was like, man, just.

I can't.

We can't.

We can't run that thing back, brother.

And it's.

No offense.

It's just.

Isn't.

It's not for our people.

Right.

And because you find out real quick that whatever you've been doing, like, New York has this beautiful thing of it where people are.

They're really genuine and open and.

And some of the stick or the whatever you think was working somewhere, it's like.

But I just never forget that guy's face.

Like, it just can't do it, brother.

Like, yeah, right.

You know.

Glad you're here.

Appreciate you.

But we got to put, you know, what.

What we do here first.

And so, yeah, New York, New York will.

It'll show you colors quick.

It will.

Yeah.

Straight up.

Yeah.

We have to be very intentional about who.

Because, you know, it's.

And the other thing too is like, there.

There's not as much like celebrity Christian culture out here.

You know what I mean?

So you could have a large crowd at V1 Church and there.

And you're.

I'm.

Name drop.

They're like, we don't know who that is and we don't care.

And by the way, can Julie preach again?

You know, so they just.

My wife is the celebrity of our church, which I think is awesome.

Yeah.

You know, but it's.

It's so true.

You know, a lot of.

A lot of that stuff is.

Is.

Is.

Is made up culture stuff, you know, like the whole celebrity vibe in general, it.

You could even say it's just not real.

Yeah.

If someone throws these labels around.

Yeah.

Okay.

But on the streets, real life outside of whatever screen you're watching, it's a different world.

Yeah.

I've never really given a lot of stock to that stuff.

And we obviously got hit with some of that stuff, but we always just used to say whatever, you know, we don't have a lot of time.

Yeah.

To be fishing around some of these.

These labels because it's.

You know, when you do a church in New York, it's different.

Well, you were always the guy too, and you still are.

But I just.

So many stories of you ministering to people who have no idea who you are and that you.

And I was telling you this earlier, but it's just of your primary giftings is an evangelist, you know, Dramatic stories that you had here in the.

In the streets.

And what I loved is like, anybody can have the music playing behind them.

You know what I mean?

And you set the atmosphere.

And it's like, it's funny because one of the ways that I've kept.

I.

I've sharpened myself out here is like, try something that worked on a stage in the streets.

Yeah.

And how many times I've gotten laughed at, cussed out.

They don't care who I am.

And it's funny because I walk away from those situations thinking this made me healthier.

Because you.

You.

When you're in the echo chamber and you know it's.

You drop the one line.

Like at our Manhattan campus, I drop a one liner and everyone goes, wow.

And you know, so where did that church culture, the.

Wow.

Wow.

And I'm like, from a sociological perspective, if somebody came in, you're like, this is weird, man.

Yeah.

And then you go in the street and you drop the one liner.

And no.

And no one says, wow.

Yeah.

You know, so.

Yeah, but.

And I love that about.

I think I gleaned that from your life when I got here, where it was like, I need to spend as much time on the streets as I do the stage.

Or more.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

That's a beautiful way to put it.

I think I.

My.

I.

I talk to a lot of communicators now, and part of my primary thing I'm doing is helping people preach better.

And there is a switch to be made where a lot of guys, like, I want to see if what I'm saying on the stage works in the street.

I said, and perhaps flip that thing.

Yeah.

That was.

If it's working on the street, go ahead and talk about it.

Yeah.

That.

So I was never a sermon prep guy, where I'm going to prepare a sermon up in a closet, come down and try to deliver something.

I was more of a.

An overflow from what real life is happening and what real life is doing.

And it'll probably help these people as well.

That was always my.

My memo.

And I.

I met with the preacher one time.

He was like, I got all my sermons prepared for the whole year.

And I was like, sounds miserable.

They're probably trash.

How do you do that?

Like, how on earth could.

You know?

Yeah.

And we both love prep.

Like, I'm a huge, obvious, diligent believer in prep.

My point is like, what are you prepping?

Right.

So it's much more fun to see God do things in people's lives on the street and in your own family and in your everyday life, and then go talk about what God's doing as opposed to trying to get some ethereal thought that might get you a certain look or feel, but it doesn't have that.

That impact that you and I love.

The impact of watching God invade a space.

Oh, my gosh.

It's so.

It's a cool thing to see people make a shift from, like, yeah, maybe the pulpit to the streets.

Yeah.

Chasm doesn't have to be as glaring as it can seem.

Like that's from where I sit now on the sidelines to a degree when it comes to preaching.

I see guys preaching a lot.

I just say, I hope.

I hope there's a new wave of guys that are going to come out of the street into the pulpit as opposed to guys trying to see if this is going to work out there.

Here's my church.

You know, I think, yeah, there's a beautiful mix in there somewhere.

I feel it.

It's almost like if it works on the stage, it might not work on the streets, but if it works on the streets, it probably works three times better on the stage.

Yes.

And that's how you don't lose your edge.

Yeah.

And it also has humbled me because I'm like, wow, I'm not that good, you know, like.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because.

And I think New York City, I had this weird relationship with this city because it is like a love hate, you know, because it's.

It's the.

It's that Dickens, you know, the best at times, worst at times.

The Tale of Two Cities, you know, and.

And I know, you know that, you know, you know, you.

You were out there, you're evangelizing.

I feel like in.

So, I feel like in so many ways, you were like a marked man spiritually, because it's like you have the nations come to New York City.

You know, it's like, for example, I.

I got the mayor's approval here to do a Times Square event.

My expectations were low.

The thing.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's a whole other story.

I can't wait.

For those watching, you may not know.

So I.

I did a live stream from my phone outside of this house, and it went viral that night, which was.

It was me talking about the lone wolf situation here in the city.

It was a political thing, but I gave, like, a spiritual message.

I love it.

I.

And I.

I hesitate to say this on film, but I'm just gonna, you know, whatever, we'll go there.

You know, I get a WhatsApp from the New York City Mayor's office.

Which that kind of freaked me out.

It's like at first I thought it was spam, you know, and then it was like, hey, you know, we're requesting your presence at Gracie Mansion.

So I'm thinking like, this is either really good or really bad, you know.

So I show up the next day and the guys were basically like, hey, we want to say this, but we can't.

Thank you for saying this, which is kind of crazy.

So then I try to use that open door to open another door and was like, hey, I want to do like a time square event, blah, blah, blah.

So they approve it.

And I'm.

I mean when you see the footage, the whole thing, it looks like a New York.

A New Year's Eve.

Wow service.

Check it out.

Which, which was.

But my point, even bringing that up is like, you know, when, when to do that.

It's like if I did a event of that magnitude in terms of people in, in Idaho, shout out all my Idaho folks watching right now, it's not going to.

Yeah, but you put that amount of people in Times Square and it's like, I mean, I was internationally syndicated news that next week because there's something about this being the crossroads of the world and you.

I know.

You know, and so that was like a huge moment for me, like kind of like a milestone moment.

But it also made me aware of the spiritual significance.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So, so the thing I, I used to.

And I.

This is the first time I'm ever saying this to you, but like, I would pray for you.

Thank you deeply, man.

I'm talking intercede.

Because part of it was like you're literally plundering.

There's that phrase I always use.

If you're not in a head on collision with the devil, it's because you're both run in the same direction.

Yikes.

And so it was like for you, you're just, you're out here just plundering hell, raising up people to do it.

It was more like apostolic with, with the evangelistic, you know what I mean?

And the whole time I think for me, I looked at the spiritual implications of it.

I'm like, there's a, there's a lot of demons mad at this dude.

So I mean, I don't know if you feel comfortable, like.

Yeah, if you could go back in your mind to that era of like what it was like to be public enemy number one in Satan's kingdom.

Yeah, I mean I.

It was I, I, I, There's a, we typically either overplay it or underplay it.

Yeah.

When it comes to spiritual darkness.

And I think I, I have a great mom and dad who taught me really well about, about that.

And, and even, you know, my pastor at the time, Brian, and, and Hillsong in general was very, very tuned into, you know, the, the spiritual stuff that we can't put our finger on a lot.

And I feel like I probably could have done more to get more help when it came to the heaviness of what I would feel every day.

And everybody, everybody watching has their own unique heaviness that's going to come with their life.

And for me in New York, I didn't, I just, we just hit the ground running and then you wake up some days you're like, man, I'm really sore.

Like, spiritually, like, I don't.

And you just try to push through it.

Whereas I know now it would have been a call, it would have been a, hey, I don't know what this is, but just, just pray because I'm not feeling good or I'm feeling this, I'm feeling that I just was so close to reaching out for my own life.

I was really good at reaching out to other, really good at teaching other people to reach out.

When it came to me, actually put my hand up, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I would do that differently.

And so I, but the spiritual weight of that era was something special.

I counted it as a reverent honor.

So that head on collision, I'm sure you're crazy like me, where it's like, if there's not something wild happening, I'm not doing my fricking job.

So if I'm not getting 10 reports before a service starts about some sort of drama, are we even existing?

So there, sometimes there'd be a challenge.

I'll be like, thank God there's no power randomly.

Yeah.

The whole day.

Right.

Thank God there's a parade again.

How many effing parades can we have in New York?

We had a parade last hour and here we are again.

Hey, just so you know, Carl, all the streets are shut down.

No one can get to the service because we've got parades.

It's like, cool.

But I, so I, I was always up for the fight.

But I think there is a level of wisdom that comes with the humility to get help that I didn't, I didn't access.

Yeah.

And so that's, that's, that's how when I look back at that one.

That one angle of it.

Boy, it would have been.

It would have been really helpful to let some people know what I was dealing with.

Yeah, well, it's like we've all been so inspired by your counseling journey, you know, and as a church, like, we.

Scholarship, all kinds of counseling.

I mean, we have a large national network of people.

People that.

I mean, it's.

It's.

We believe in that, and we've been following your journey.

That's why you're awesome, though.

Mike, there's not like.

There's not a lot, you know how I feel about your camp, and I say that lovingly.

It's not.

It's not a camp.

But why I think you stand out is because you use your whole brain, the entire thing God gave you, you use it all.

Yeah.

It's not either or.

It's not like people who believe in therapy don't.

Don't discount the supernatural.

No, man.

If you're really tuned in supernaturally, you'll be in a therapist office because you know what you need.

So I.

I love the fact that you're able to just be smart with both, man.

I appreciate that.

I appreciate that.

Well, I mean, right now I'm doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy, which is incredible for your brain.

It is, and it's really helping me a lot.

Yeah.

But here's my thing.

I knew all about deliverance and spiritual warfare and still cheated on my wife, still became an alcoholic, still stepped out of ministry.

Yeah.

It's like our stories are identical, just 15 years apart.

Yeah.

I just.

I had a smaller audience for it than you did, you know?

And.

And so it was crazy because I was like, wow, there has to be more.

It's.

You can't counsel a demon, but you can't cast out a mental issue.

Right.

So it's like I had that.

That's where the wisdom came from.

And.

And so for me, it's like I'm really just prescribing people what worked for me.

I'm the crash test dummy of my ministry, where I'm like, hey, here's.

Here's what worked, you know?

Yeah.

And.

And unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way because I was the guy who over spiritualized until I realized, this is not working.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And experience taught me.

And what's crazy, I ended up finding this guy.

Well, so, you know, a lot of my viewers know this, but like I mentioned to you, my dad dies prematurely.

I'm fatherless.

I had multiple abusive stepdads.

I was raised in extreme poverty, gang ridden neighborhoods, blah, blah, blah.

So all of a sudden, now here I am, Pastor Mike, and I'm like, I hadn't dealt with all this stuff.

So that was.

But I had dealt with it on a demonic level or, you know, we say strongholds, but I was like, I need someone.

So for me, basically what happened was it got so bad at the height of my alcoholism, I came home one day and my house is completely empty, but drunk out of my mind.

I think it was clean.

So in my mind, I'm thinking, man, Julie really cleaned good today.

And then when I sobered up, I was like, oh, she's gone.

You know, like, my wife left me.

And.

And, you know, of course that made things worse.

I spiraled more.

But eventually I reached a crossroads where I was like, I'm gonna find help.

So I went to this counselor who was like, fully medical and fully Christian, which is kind of an anomaly, as you know.

It's hard to find those dudes.

Yeah.

And then I'm sitting in the counseling session, and then I start getting angry because I'm like, I have to pay a man to care about me.

This is so jacked up.

Like, my pastor never cared about me, you know, blah, blah.

And I, you know, all those wounds.

So I literally just talk about dropping f bombs.

I just cussed this dude out.

Yeah, he waits till I'm done.

He's like, like, are you done?

I'm like, well, yeah, you know, and he was like, well, here.

Here's the deal.

You don't have to pay me ever again.

I want to see you every single week.

And I.

I believe in you, and I want you to be here.

And this dude just broke this orphan thing off me.

So I went on this journey with him for a long time.

And it was funny because I was struggling with alcoholism.

Like, I.

When I say it was clinically diagnosed, you know how people say it?

And you're like, no, you just had a couple rager parties.

It was like, I had a drunk.

Yeah, y know, I'm.

I'm going.

And so what he did is he said, I want you to.

I want you to start visiting all the places over Chicagoland where the abuse and the trauma happened.

And I want you to ask God, where were you when it happened to me?

So I'm like, oh, this is going to be fun.

You know, this.

This can be.

So what happened, though?

The very first location I show up to where some really bad stuff happened to me, I'm like, okay, God, I'm doing it.

This counselor wants.

I'm like, where were you when it happened?

And this is.

This is the revelation I got is in that moment, I felt like the Holy Spirit said, I'm not bound by time.

I'm.

I'm actually still there.

I'm in that moment.

Like, you're bound by time, but not me.

So where am I?

I'm in 1983, and.

And I can touch you right now if you'll allow.

And that's God's version of healing.

So I'm going through these crazy experiences where I'm being triggered.

It's getting worse, it's getting better.

You know how, like, you know that whole roller coaster you go on?

I relate.

Yeah.

And so what happened was one week I just decided, like, I don't want to drink anymore.

And so I come in and I tell the guy.

He's like, yeah, I thought it would happen this week or next week.

And he had, like, charted this thing out.

He was that good.

He was an older guy, had been doing it for, like, four decades, and he charted out my journey.

So I think what happened is I became the test tube experiment for this stuff where I was like, it's cruelty to tell somebody it's a demon when they need counseling.

It's.

It's actually cruelty because I was subjected to that unbalanced bad theology.

Wow.

You know what I mean?

And.

And so watching you kind of go on that journey as well, where it's holistic has been inspiring.

So I don't know if you want to kind of, like, piggyback off of that.

I mean, holistic is a great word.

I think.

I.

I mean, you just said it beautifully.

I think there has to be.

I think if you have a Christian, a follower of Jesus, that is really aware of their mental health, aware of their neuropath in their brain chemicals and their tendencies, and they're really aware of the spiritual realm, they're hard to stop now.

Either one alone, easy to stop.

You get that spiritual guy who's like, ah, therapy, whatever.

Need dead man walking.

Get the guy over here who's all therapy, all brain, dead man walking.

There's this beautiful place to get to where it's like, now I'm a child of God.

I love Jesus.

I know God has a plan for my life, and because of that, I can then go pursue the things that God has opened up for me to get help.

That combo to me is.

Is everything.

And I think there's a.

There's a wave, and you represent a lot of what that can be.

Of people who can really talk about both.

And.

And that's where that's the.

To me, the recipe that's going to bring continual revival is it's.

I mean, right now it's really cool to talk about mental health.

It's like therapy has become like church almost.

I say, oh, I go to church.

I go to therapy.

Okay, I got you.

But that's going to swing back because that's empty.

And just like, it's been empty.

Hollow church, where you're going to rant and rave about stuff, but there's no power.

Yeah.

That middle ground for me is.

Is the therapy side of things.

Really, really helped me.

Really helped me.

I went to a rehab, and I thought that I was going there for one reason.

And I remember the guy said, you know, I kept asking for my medication.

They're like, hey, you know, we're not going to be giving you that here.

And I'm like, well, you got another thing coming, my brother, because I didn't come here for that.

I came here for this.

And they're like, yeah, well, we're going to tell you what you're here for.

And I'm like, see that?

That doesn't work for me, you know, And I literally got into a pretty close to a physical altercation with this sweet therapist in the middle of Arizona.

Flipped a table, packed all my stuff up.

Yeah.

And.

And then I was like, oh, I might be an addict.

Anytime someone tries to take something from you and your.

Your response is visceral, you might want to look into that.

But it was moments like that where God is kind with the way that he will unwind.

Truth.

You need to see if you can sit there long enough to let him do it.

And in our world where we can't sit down long enough to watch a whole video, people don't have a lot of time.

Right.

For God to unwind anything.

Yeah.

And I don't look at my situation as a crash and burn, you know, I look at my situation as a graceful God who helped me see things brighter.

Yeah.

And that's my situation.

Yeah.

I'm glad it's mine because I get to talk about what it is to me.

And so to me, I look at what happened to me and I said, God was so kind to allow my vision to expand, man.

This is as.

As important as all this stuff is that that is now severely damaged, in which God can always redeem and always bless and always help.

But you.

There's some stuff in you that has to change.

And so finding that Balance was a beautiful thing, but you have to sit still long enough to let God do it.

Yeah.

And often when I talk to people, it's like, how I want to get free of this.

Okay, cool.

I get that.

How much work do you want to do?

Yes, that's the better.

And the question is not, do you want to be free?

Question is, how much work are you willing to do?

Yeah, but if it's freedom, shouldn't it be instant?

Eh, depends on what idiot you're listening to preach every week.

Because I don't see instant freedom in the Gospels.

I don't see Peter not.

Not denying Jesus after he walked with this brother.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, there's examples that give us a real.

No, real clear view of humanity and the people that we love so much, we forget that.

Yeah.

Like, if the.

The guys that walk with Jesus needed time to process who he was and who they were, who are we to think?

Yeah, there might be some counseling sessions in your future.

Doesn't mean you're less spiritual.

Doesn't mean you don't have any faith.

It just means you're smart.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

I.

I did very little therapy before all this.

Huge proponent of it.

Like, I remember, I.

I wasn't the first guy, but I was in that first wave of people standing up saying, it's okay to not be O.

But for me, it was like, I.

I don't know.

I mean, I.

I can go to a level, but there was a wall in me where I was even lying to myself.

Forget about being honest with my wife Laura, or a counselor.

It's like I was too busy lying to myself to be able to even get the kind of help I needed.

So there's a.

There's a couple moments in there for people to even dissect their own life and forget about.

Are you honest with people?

Yeah, I like the question.

Are you honest with yourself?

Yeah, that's it.

There's power.

There's.

Yeah, well, so many young guys.

I mean, I get hundreds of messages a month from, hey, can you cast out the demon of lust?

And it's like, let me ask you this.

Yeah, exactly.

Let me ask you a better question.

You know, when were you molested?

And have.

And have you dealt with that?

And what's the root of it?

Or what's your anxiety level?

And how are you medicating anxiety with love?

So let you talk about the root system, and it's like, you start talking on that level, it's like, man, they don't even because they're looking for a quick fix, which I think contributes to a culture of condemnation.

Because they're like, I did all the things the guy told me to do.

The demons came out, but then now here I am falling back into it.

It's like, well, maybe you did need deliverance.

But yeah, the discipline is what you're talking about, where it's like, we.

We got to go to the roots.

Like, for me, I was a self sabotager.

Yeah.

So I was the kind of guy that was like, oh, life's not fair.

I won't destroy you.

I'll destroy myself.

And so I was trapped in these cycles of trying realizing things aren't working out and then destroying myself.

Yeah.

And then everybody around me was a casualty of my own self destruction, you know, and so I was trapped in that.

Yeah.

And it was.

It was so much.

And I feel like it's almost like this.

Like this is how I've explained it before.

Here in New York City, we got.

We got rats the size of cats.

We do.

But wherever you find garbage, you find rats.

So this is a complex problem because it's like we have to deal with the garbage problem to deal with the rat problem.

It.

You know, it, it's.

And so for me, it's like, oh, yeah, there might be some demonic stuff influencing your situation, but you got a garbage problem, bro.

Like, you're feeding this.

You're beautiful, you know, and so I kind of.

I think there's a level of complexity.

But here's the problem, Carl.

And I know, you know, this is.

This kind of talk doesn't go viral.

Right.

But then when I say something that has to.

When I do speak, you know, that's.

That's like, oh, you know, And I think for me, I've kind of.

Even in my own personal ministry, I've been dealing with that avatar of who Mike Signorelli is.

And then people come into V1 church and like, oh, everything's not a demon here.

And you know, whatever.

And I was like, yes, we're a real church.

You.

You know, and then we're giving them scholarships to counseling sessions, and they're like.

I said the guy I wanted to come see.

Yeah, this is confusing.

And actually, some of them who are like spiritual vagabonds, they leave angry and they go find.

Yeah.

A person that will tell them what.

They want to hear.

Yeah, man.

And so it's like, what.

What I love about what you.

What I see you doing is not trying to deny the reality of the supernatural.

The influence of Dark.

You know, the darkness, but also the complexities of it.

Yeah.

Something I've been dying to ask you about, you know, because we're kind of in the grand finale territory right now.

And I've always wanted to ask you about people throw this term revivalist around and what I.

When I look at your life, I.

I see an overarching theme.

Because even, Even with you, like, hey, why doesn't revival affect your mind?

Yeah.

Why, why, why did your spirit come back to life but not your brain?

Because my brain is the problem.

Or why.

You know, physical.

Yeah.

And.

And I remember this one time I was at Hillsong NYC service because we'd hang out in the evenings with all those dudes and whatever.

Yeah.

And you just had one of those, like, last service of the day, you preached all day and then you dropped this atomic bomb and something happened where it's just.

Everybody just got sucked to the stage.

And I remember seeing you on stage, like you could barely stand up.

Yeah, you were.

And you were just.

It was just madness.

I remember Evan and I, who's off camera just balling our eyes out be.

Because we moved our whole life here to see those moments of response.

And we were like the guys with the 40 person church.

This is before the seven campuses.

This is before the stuff I'm doing now, before the Times Square moment.

And you represented like it was, like it is possible.

Because when I got here, I would say, I would tell people the vision I had for New York City.

And 100% of pastors would say, say, Mike, we want to adjust your expectations.

And they thought they were helping me, but it was Saul's armor.

And they were just saying, listen, bro, people come out here, you know, with way more, you know, you're just.

We're.

They're trying to help me.

Yeah.

But I remember seeing that service and I remember it was like, you're under the weight of the glory of God and people are surging.

And dude, I was in the crowd.

Yeah.

So we're meeting people who are Hindus, atheists, agnostics.

I mean, you people don't understand, bro, what you were doing here, it wasn't the Bible Bell.

It wasn't.

This was the jungle.

It is.

You know.

You know what I'm saying?

And so I remember watching that moment and being like, this is I.

And I.

Forgive me if I'm stepping over the line, but it felt like historically significant and.

And I think your story will.

Will have to be told in retrospect because.

Because you're on this other.

And So I think the overarching title for your life is Revivalist, because wherever you.

Whatever you step into, you bring things back to life, and you've been doing it in phases, and that's.

I think this journey, if I can speak prophetically for you right now, is like a revival of the biological mind.

A revival of.

We're working on the second movie right now, and the title, the theme of the movie is family is revival.

So you're bringing your kids, you know, you're putting on the podcast.

But what goes through your mind when you think about what it means to be.

Because I know there was a visceral, emotional response to that, and.

And I.

You know, But I want to say it publicly to a million subscribers.

One of the greatest revivalists of our generation's name is Carl Lentz.

And I believe that.

I saw it, but the crazy thing is I'm still seeing it.

Yeah.

And I saw people surged to the stage when we were in that venue in Manhattan, but people are surging to YouTube, and it's actually a bigger.

And I felt like the Lord was showing me, like, what.

What Carl's doing now is literally greater than what he did before.

It's just that it's digital, not physical in many ways.

So you want to kind of, like, speak to that?

No, I think it.

It definitely.

I.

I remember, you know, you ever had those moments where you're like, if I don't stop this cry.

Yeah, man.

Let it go.

Rap.

No, no, like, let it out.

There are cries, and they're like, there, there's.

I've learned to recognize what kind of tears are flowing, which comes through some work as well, let me tell you.

Different types of tears.

Who knew?

No, I remember, you know, moments like that or.

And things like that.

And I think it's.

It's one of those.

It's beautiful.

It's a beautiful.

One of the things that sucks about making decisions that.

That have a.

Have a huge consequence beyond what you can see is, you know, you put.

There's a time where your work and what you did that was right.

You know, you put it in the hands of other people to question that's a consequence.

Doesn't stay like that.

God redeems.

But there are parts of that.

That journey that.

That were marred or covered for.

For a season, because I.

I put some of that in a vulnerable position.

And to those parts, I'll get there.

Well, let me.

Let me say why you get it.

Yeah.

Because.

And if you want to cry, you keep letting it out.

No, no, but let me tell you why.

Because I believe that there is an element of vindication.

You know, the Bible talks about wood, haste, double.

You know, it's like when the fire comes, there's things that remain.

Pain.

Yeah.

And those were, like, irrevocable moments.

Yeah.

Of true revival that weren't filmed.

Yeah.

You.

This is what people understand.

We didn't do this.

And I'm not fangirling right now.

It's like, I.

I have devoted my life to this man.

Yeah.

And as a practitioner, I'm saying there was.

You didn't have a D Rock following you around so you can get the next viral clip of you doing revival.

You did it in the streets, in the local bodegas.

You did it on stage.

And those services are.

They only exist in our minds.

Yeah.

I don't even think there's archival footage of this stuff.

Yeah.

And.

And I just felt like.

And that was kind of the last thing I wanted to ask you about for this.

Yeah.

Because I.

I wanted to acknowledge you as a revivalist.

Thank you.

And I.

I believe history will reflect what I said.

And.

And I.

And.

But I think what.

What happens is.

Let me say this.

When you're two steps ahead of people, you're their leader.

When you're 10 steps ahead, you're their martyr.

And you've always been ahead.

So it's like, because you chase up ahead what God's doing, you're a forerunner.

And so that's caused a level of martyrdom for you.

But as somebody who's now living in your.

Yes.

Living in your.

Yes.

Stewarding many of the people that were a part of that who are now at our various campuses.

They are.

I just wanted to tell you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Now, you're.

You're an amazing place for them to be able to have gone, I think.

Yeah.

There's so much about that part of our.

Our chapter and story that I'm glad that God redeems because we.

You know, what we saw here, it had never happened.

Yeah.

And.

And that's not something that I'm gonna always necessarily say, but when.

When your mistakes can have people almost try to reduce a move of God to some salacious thing that's half true anyway.

It's one of those things where you want to remind people when they're on that doorstep of sin, that's going to destroy stuff, really count that cost.

You know, because there's, like.

Neither of us do, like, structured interview stuff.

Yeah.

And I'm regretting it now because I would have seen this Question.

Come and be like, mike, I'm not doing it.

Not with a million.

No.

No freaking way.

Yeah, we did it.

We did prepare for this.

No, I think, I think it's just, it's a beautiful, like when God gives you something to steward, count the cost.

And it's hard to hear if I would have been on the other side of this, listening to someone have this combo, I probably would have said, well, I am counting it.

But I look back at that era and it just.

There's so many amazing people, and I saw God do so much.

Where some people ask, how did you get up?

I'm like, man, you've seen what I've seen, brother.

Like, I'm not God.

Didn't fail me like, I a day, right?

What we saw, I was just so blessed to be a part of that.

I remember services like that.

I remember seeing the tangible presence of God change people's lives.

And yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful feeling I have just thinking about even some of the mantle of that that God has bestowed on you and what you're doing and, and stuff that we, we were never, we didn't do do.

Like, the, the gift that you have right now to reach people digitally is really special.

But yeah, I think, I think when I think about revival, we serve a God that can, in the blink of an eye, turn anything around, any situation around, any mistake.

I, I am proof of that.

Like, I always tell people, like, I'm 46.

I'm not 96.

Come on.

Like, our stories are long and everybody.

I have a chapter of mine that was, that was, that was hard and happened to be really public.

But the outweighing memory and gratitude I have to be a part of, like, when people speculate or try to judge stories they don't know, it's human nature to just take the little bit of information you have and just try to destroy somebody's whole life.

Not when you've seen the stuff that you and I have seen.

Yeah.

And, and I'm, I'm really grateful that, you know, New York has, has men of integrity that are stewarding that platform well.

And I, I, I'm, I'm grateful for the, for the New York time that we spent on the, on the battlefields.

But I think I'm trying to go back to the, the impetus of my floodgate tier issue that I was about to have.

It's just because it, it's that that lane is open.

You know, it, you running it, you stay in it.

And I could.

I mean, there's a huge lane that is still waiting to be occupied by many people who are willing just to be faithful, to step out.

Like, you come in here.

I mean, we're in your house in Queens, overlooking the greatest city on Earth.

If you would have told you 10 years ago, Mike, this is your story, you would have been like, and if he's done it for you, can do it for anybody.

If he's done it for me, even this chapter, if he's done it for me, like, as I sit here today, I have a wife, I have a family.

Family that's better than they've ever been.

I have, like.

So even through all that mess and destruction, that's how faithful our God is.

So I'm not an example of what happens when somebody messes up.

You know, I think.

I hope I will always be an example of somebody who presses in.

And regardless of the circumstances, regardless of the sin, regardless of what you've been faced with, you know, there's nothing that can hold down a man or woman of God that chooses to put their hand up again.

Yeah.

And that's.

That's kind of a message I've enjoyed leaning on.

I've been the guy on the front of the stage heaving my guts out for a season.

Right now I'm.

I'm a guy in a different position still with the same passion, but he's able to say, hey, by the way, I don't know what you're going through.

I don't know why you clicked on this interview, but the.

Whatever's happened to your story, it's not a period.

Yeah.

There's a.

There's a.

There's a page to be turned, you know, but thank you for your.

Your kind words and for your love and your support, and I love watching what you're doing.

And here's to the next million, you know, because here's the thing about you in numbers, brother.

You don't.

Numbers represent people.

Yeah.

Sometimes numbers represent money to people.

That's not Mike.

That's not you.

And I know that's why God's going to keep on blessing it.

So, yeah, man, I'm.

I'm grateful to be your friend.

Don't appreciate you making me trigger cry out of nowhere.

Well, I was trying to hold it together because I'm about to.

I almost lost.

I'm like, one of us has to keep this thing going because.

But you know what, man, as we wrap up and thank you for each and every one of you tuning in, you gotta share this message, it's gonna.

I know it's helped you, but it's gonna help somebody else.

You know, the thing, and I'll.

I'll just end on this is I love the idea of Turn the page.

The fact that you.

You're calling me man of integrity, that did something to me because I go back to 15 years ago, or maybe more now, whatever it was.

Bella was 2 years old.

That story where my wife left me and.

And you know, where.

Alcoholic Mic, you know.

Yeah.

It's like to.

To fast forward.

Yeah.

And it's like, if people probably watch and can't even imagine me being that dude, which is crazy to me.

You know?

And so it's like, just as equally important to hear that from you.

Yeah.

That.

Hey, that's my perception.

Like, this is the.

It's like, what.

You know, when people say, like, I hate Mike Signorelli, it's like, which version did you meet?

Because I probably agree with you, bro.

Like, which version did you meet?

I hate that guy, too.

It's like the.

The Spider man meme that, you know.

When people come up, say, you know, I.

I didn't really like you, and.

And you want to tell them you didn't definitely didn't know me, whoever you thought you disliked.

But go ahead, please.

Yeah.

Please.

Yeah.

Let me say this because I, before you, before we log off, when you use the rat in the garbage thing, I, I, it's funny because that.

That's a beautiful word picture for, like, what ended up on the front pages was the rats in our story.

What.

What wasn't was the garbage.

And the garbage can be cleaned out before the rats come.

And I think that's a.

That's a beautiful.

Could even be a prophetic interjection for somebody right now who maybe.

Maybe the rats aren't running all over the sidewalk yet, but you can.

You can get somebody in there to inspect that.

That pile of stuff you have in your soul right now.

Maybe the rats don't ever have to run over your feet, end up on a website, whatever it is.

Like, there's.

That's the beautiful thing about being a Christian, that, that.

No, we get to actually say that, like, our God is faithful.

He's close to the brokenhearted.

He has never once rejected somebody's cry for help, ever.

Yeah.

So I, I think it.

If you are searching around your life, what might you be hiding?

It's a question I love to ask people.

And then why.

So maybe take a step forward into, like, okay, well, if Those guys on YouTube are saying there's an area that might be garbage filled right now that could produce rats someday.

Well, here it is.

I don't know.

That's a beautiful first step.

Yeah.

And I don't care how successful you are.

Whatever.

I had a measure of whatever in my life, and I had a giant.

You know what I thought was a small piece of garbage was a dump.

Yeah, right, right.

Seagulls flying around.

Yes.

Amen.

PS104, you know, built right underneath it.

So.

New York reference.

But, yeah, I think it could be a beautiful thing to just start inspecting.

You don't.

You don't have to have carnage to have breakthrough.

Yeah.

These two things have to come together.

Yeah.

Are we tag team preaching?

Maybe.

Well, I mean, and just to say, because that garbage, for me, when I look back at it, it was like, your dad died prematurely, Mike.

Do you believe you'll die prematurely?

And then is that feeling creating nihilism, despair.

Then do you not care?

Because when you can't see a future, I mean, discipline is really just vision reverse engineered.

So it's like, hey, I see myself getting here.

So now I'm disciplined because I'm reverse engineering that vision.

But when I lost the vision, I was like, what if I die young, like my dad, like my grandpa, like my gr.

And it was like.

It was the.

But the guard.

So I think when you look down, you're like, it's garbage.

But that's a water bottle.

That's a gut.

You know, it's.

And you.

I think a lot of counseling is like, let's talk about what it is.

Yeah.

It's not just a water bottle.

Yeah.

It's actually.

So there's some abuse in my past.

No, no.

What abuse?

I was a garbage piler.

And.

And some of that stuff in the pile.

If I just would have brought out that first water bottle.

Yeah.

That's actually not a water bottle.

Yeah.

You got sexually abused when you were a kid.

Yeah.

So that's going to affect you.

Yeah.

Oh, there it is in high school, there it is in college.

There it is when you got saved, There it is after you were saved.

There it is as a preacher.

There it is as.

It's the same water.

Yeah.

And so maybe you.

You start getting that stuff checked before it becomes a, you know, a public dump.

But that's.

That's a beautiful, beautiful thing to put your finger on.

So we are garbage collectors today.

Yes.

Yeah.

Come on.

Listen, here's what I'm going to do, because right now there's probably a lot of you guys who are crying, dealing with different issues.

If you go to the description, I've linked a lot of resources for you because this is your first step, not your final step.

Beautiful.

We want you to take your next step because God will divinely bring you into moments like this to open you up so we can start to deal with things, and we'll have all those resources in the description.

I love you guys so much.

Carl, it's a pleasure, man.

Love you.

Thank you.

Such an honor.

Until next time.

Yeah.