Nancy Johnson: Building a Bridge, episode 118

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey

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right here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast and also some help and

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hope for your own life journey. Remember if you think I should do that or I

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should try that, you better jot it down or you won't remember it. I know from

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lots of experience. So you are going to be blessed by our guest today. She has so

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much experience as a mom and as a counselor. I've known her for years and

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I know that she is a compassionate, wise and practical person. So welcome Nancy.

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Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Well it is our privilege to hear from you.

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So let's just start and you give a little bit of history or background on

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yourself so we get to know who we're talking with. Okay. So I came to Christ

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when I was 15 and at about me too. At 15. That's right. My best friend in high

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school led me to the Lord and then dragged me to an Urbana mission

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conference when I was 16 and I began to pray about someday going to Africa and

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actually. And did you? I did. I did. I spent five and a half years in East

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Africa at the Great Commission Training Center. Okay. But my whole vision for

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college was to work hard at learning how to grow up in Christ and have a

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ministry so I could someday go. So I did come on staff with the crew and I

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spent 23 years on staff mostly in the campus ministry and seven years into it.

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That's when I went to Africa and then when I came back I my kids got a little

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bit older. I decided to go get my master's in counseling. But it's

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interesting Judy. I always thought I'd go back to school and become a counselor.

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Did you really? Yeah. A lot of my discipleship. I mean it was like a

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revolving door. I mean there's this little taco place across the street in

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Kearney, Nebraska and people would knock on my door and we'd go over there and I

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would talk and I would listen and I would counsel and and I really cared a

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lot about the whole person even back then. And in my action groups I would have

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these girls I would give them books to read and then they'd have to report in

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our group on what they're learning and share a little bit about what the book

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meant to them and we worked on emotional health and mental health even in those

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years. That's awesome. So it's always been a part of me. Yeah. I recognize that

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because my daughter had a similar path. She was on staff for five years and

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student staff kind of things before that. But and then she went to counseling to

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school and got her license and and that's what she's doing and so it's been

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fun to watch her grow and and I've gotten to know you from some things we've

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worked on together and so that's been a very special thing and I know that you

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have a lot to offer. So tell us a story of lives you've seen change just one or

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two. Okay. I remember you asked me that question and I you know I'm trying to

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brainstorm and one of the things that came to mind Judy is I see a lot of

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redemptive moments that are building into a redemptive story and that's good. And

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so you know coming full circle I don't see I don't have a lot of those stories

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but in the counseling room in particular I think it's a lot easier as a

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counselor than as a parent and so I'll share a little bit about you know some

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stories of good outcomes in the counseling room and then I'll talk a

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little bit about the challenges as a parent because they're two different

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places right. Absolutely. And I've been working with this 22-year-old young man

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he's a pastor's kid he's also on the autism spectrum and you know kind of had

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a you know jump out of college because of a traumatic event in his life a sexual

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type of traumatic event and you know he comes to me you know depressed

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traumatized coming from a Christian life and family and says I really want to

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trust the God and love the God my parents love but I'm just like torn up

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inside. Yeah. And so we started looking at his timeline I do a timeline thing

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with with people he brings this big board in this this paper and he just

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starts the first five years and we just kind of walk through his narrative. That

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sounds like a really helpful approach to me. It's a way for me to get to know

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somebody but it also allows me to see themes and as we begin to identify some

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themes you know and try to unravel a little bit of why he landed where he

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landed he's feeling like he might be bisexual he's clinging to this and that

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he's got some addictions in there as well and he's having a lot of redemptive

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moments. Oh thank you Lord. And because because nobody's ever taken the time to

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listen to him and his parents are great I'm sure they're great but but I think

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his struggle is the only thing they care about is that I trim my beard or I pick

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up my room or like he doesn't know how to feel safe with his parents to talk and

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unravel a little bit of his story in hopes for some kind of connection so

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there's a lot of disconnection for him so the beauty of being in the counseling

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room with him is I have an opportunity to validate him and love him and help

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him sort out some of the things that that are going on in his life in hopes

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for redemptives outcome. So what do you do you think it's possible for parents

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they won't be counselors but to learn to do more of that affirmation and helping

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them know that they're cared for even in their struggles. Absolutely. Absolutely.

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I would think that that would save you a lot. Of course you might not make as much

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money if you don't have any clients because the parents do a better job at it

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but I know that in my early time with our

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prodigal at that time who came from major disruptive things in his life

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because he was adopted and he was almost 10 when we got him and you know we

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didn't know what we were doing and I'm I tend to be an affirming kind of person

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so I could do that some but he made so many bad choices that you just get

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frustrated and you think you don't have to make these choices and so anything

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that you can say to parents to help them with that is gonna be a really good

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thing and I know we're gonna talk some about bridge building which is a huge

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part of it I would think. No it is a parent you know I had a son that made

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a lot of bad choices and what I've learned is well in the midst of it you

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know parents are pulling their hair out it's incredibly frustrating. It is. You

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know bad choice after bad choice after bad choice but kids when they're young

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and adult kids you know children in 20s 30s the bad behaviors are driven by

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something. Yes they are always. There's a reason why a child lies there's a

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reason why a child no matter how old they are will make some of the decisions

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that they make and so you know one of the things that I had to learn is that

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there's something underneath that and that that you know my son has a really

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redemptive story and I'm so grateful for his narrative and and I think you know I

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think there's a lot of contributing factors to why his story is redemptive

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and I'm gonna share some ideas of what we can do you know as parents but I think

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extravagant love unconditional love is probably the most important. Yeah the

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foundation of. And as a parent I think we have to surrender our outcomes our

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dreams our expectations and recognize that God's got this guys this story. Now

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we have to surrender those and and and I remember there was a time with my son

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in particular caught up in some addictions and all the advice I was

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getting at that time was kick them out kick them out kick them out set this

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boundary set that boundary and I was really torn and I began to ask God what

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do you want me to know about this what do you want me to do about this and I

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was so torn up and I remember because God wasn't calling me to do that so I was

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up against this tension of all these people in my ear and I made a call to a

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friend and I said this is what I believe God wants me to do and I'm just need

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some reflective feedback from you and she said well you have your own

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relationship with God and you know your son better than anybody so go with what

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God's telling you to do. What a wonderful thing you heard then. But I heard it from

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God but Judy what I want to say is the validation coming from other believers

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wasn't there for that piece that we can actually hear from God. Yes. God can talk

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to me about my son. God can talk to me Judy I drive to work and I ask God what

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do you want me to know about this client and this client and this client what do

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you want me to say and I lean in it's a very sacred place I don't just go in

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and go I'm gonna listen to people today no I really try to lean into what does

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God want and I think as parents of kids who are struggling we've got to learn

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how to do a better job at listening to God. I think that's so important so

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helpful we we do tend to listen to what's being said out there or said

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specifically to us because I got plenty of people telling me what I should be

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doing but I have one person who said the most important thing you can do is love

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them mm-hmm and I had to learn how to do that better and what you're talking about

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of affirming them of finding out the what's under there to be causing the

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things and and yes some of it's what's in the world today and the society but

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some of it usually has to do with some experience in their life. Yeah absolutely

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absolutely and I think Judy and I'm gonna share some ideas today but I really

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think you know the bottom line is our hope has to be in a redemptive God. Yes

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know that we don't you know God in his power and God in his love can do anything

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and that as a parent I think the unwavering piece for me was that I hoped

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in God not in myself or my strategies or anything else or even in my son had had

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to come my hope had to be in God that he came you know to heal the broken hearted

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and set the captives free you know he came to redeem people's lives and I

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needed to have that hope and value my son and value every client that comes to

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the door that they're deeply loved by God and have incredible value no matter

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how messed up they are. Thank you that I that's the message and I'm very grateful

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for you sharing it so how then do we go forward how do we see progress or how do

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we how do we engage with our our person who who could be any number of ages

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and different places in life some of whom will never go to a counselor parents

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who say I can't afford to go to a counselor or whatever how can we be

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part of the help. Well I mean it depends on the problem really Judy I mean when

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we're dealing with you know really significant issues like addictions for

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example let me just throw that out there because addictions are a category in and

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of itself and then there's other behavioral dysfunctional things that

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that adult kids are getting into and our culture is getting into quite a bit

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with the identity confusion sexuality confusion and those kinds of things and

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we'll talk a little bit about that but but in particular the research really on

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addictions suggests that trauma drives them you know everybody does something

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with their pain and their woundedness yes and you know sadly we don't develop

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enough really good coping strategies young in life and so they grab the the

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other kind of strategies that might numb their pain numb their pain yeah and

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what what ends up happening Judy is when the addiction forms it begins to

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reorder the brain okay and when the brain becomes disordered then it's very

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hard for them from a behavioral standpoint to change because as they

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begin to maybe become sober then they're having some of the symptoms that are

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increased anxiety increased depression and they mimic mental health disorders

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and then they don't know what to do with that so they have to use again to

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relieve them and it's this vicious cycle and so with addictions in particular

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you have to unravel the trauma story in order to have a redemptive story so

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pause there just a second I talked to people and they think well my child

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hasn't had any trauma in their lives what might be a trauma cause what kinds of

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trauma trauma is any kind of event or series of events or ongoing life events

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for example that have a negative impact on a person's life that distorts their

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vision of their self and their place in the world and so with that being said

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when we think of trauma we think of something really big but trauma can be

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you know my childhood trauma was was related to my parents divorce but it was

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more about the inferred meaning that I attached to what happened that imprinted

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my life I'm not good enough I must not be loved enough I'm not smart enough

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those kinds of things and so Christian kids have their own little traumas

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sometimes they're in a high-conflict family sometimes they're being bullied

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sometimes maybe they go on overseeing submission trip and they are full of

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anxiety or panic or maybe it's my mom doesn't listen to me it could be that

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it could be that or my dad works too much you know I never see my dad it can

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be a variety of things and I think for the Christian parent especially

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missionary Christian parents they often think God has protected them and their

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kids from anything that could be traumatic and that's not necessarily true

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it's not it's not true at all yeah I think of bullying for example parents

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don't know the things that some this child is this way and these people are

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doing things that are frightening or devastating even and we don't even know

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it or the kid who nobody will sit with in the lunchroom and you think well

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that's just life well it's a traumatic part of life it's a traumatic part of

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life and and and I think Judy it's safe to say everybody has some kind of trauma

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because all of our experiences all of our relationships begin to shape the way

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they we think about ourselves about God and others around us and so any of these

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small experiences begin to shape the way that we think and feel about ourselves

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and if that's a negative template that often will lead to dysfunctional things

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or a place to belong if somebody doesn't belong anywhere with any group of

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people they're they're looking and grasping for things and you know back

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in the 90s you know when I was raising my kids with the tough love ideas that

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people were getting we were just addressing behavior there this person's

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lying this kid's got a seat oh my gosh how can you get a seat you know you know

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you're not working hard enough you're not doing this we say things that shape

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the way they think about themselves and so so this tough love idea that we just

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attach you know an attack behavior is is a really misguided approach because

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we're not asking wow are you having a bad day is something going on and we're

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not listening to the kids whether they're young or whether they're old and

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they're screaming at us to listen to them I'll give you an example I got this new

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client about six months ago and the mom comes in and says I need you you to help

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me turn my daughter around she is drinking she has identity issues and she

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wants me to call her by different pronouns and by a different name and

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she's been in the hospital for a deep depression suicidal thoughts the whole

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bit and I said well I said how are you building a bridge towards her and she

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says well you know we're trying to explain to her that what we believe is

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we need to call her by her real name that we gave her in the right pronouns

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that's what we believe I said she already knows what you believe I've said

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that so many times and I said so why do you want to die on that hill I said I

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like you're creating shame in your attacking this idea that she doesn't

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feel comfortable comfortable in her own skin but why why why not just connect

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with her she needs connection she needs to know she's valued she needs to know

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she's loved she's and so I think Christian parents think of boundaries like

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this is my boundary and so if she's gonna live in my home then she's got to let

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me do what she's got to follow these rules and I'm I'm like no I I don't think

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that's what she needs she needs to feel emotionally safe she needs to feel

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loved unconditionally and what you're telling me is you can't do that well I

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think that's a compromise on what I believe I said it's really not and so

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here we are you know I can't help this poor child because I can't get through

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to the parent that that she needs to build a bridge in a relationship of

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connection that this child needs to be heard needs to be seen needs to be loved

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and or else she's gonna go somewhere else so how do you do that well I mean

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like it's really tricky in the counseling room because I'm trying to

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build a therapeutic relationship with the parent for the sake of the child so

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it's very complicated and the mom kept coming back and kept coming back and it

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ended up being the mom kind of came around to building a bridge but the dad

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couldn't and the bed the dad wouldn't come and talk to me and I'm not sure how

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this this girl is doing because she was seen another counselor at the time and

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they weren't convinced that I could be of any help so if someone's open and says

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alright I I would like to be able to build a bridge what are specific or

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tangible or clear things I can do that would make the difference that would

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make this child know that they're loved and they're accepted they already know

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like you said that you don't agree with their choices and so you're not trying

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to convince them of your choices they know those how though do we build the

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bridge that restores the connections that have been lost that says even though I

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don't agree with your choices which you don't have to say because they know I

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already know it but how do we say I love you no matter what it's what God does to

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us absolutely it's giving them love even though they don't deserve it and I think

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empathy okay I would I really think we don't do a great job with empathy with

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our children so what does that look like it looks like trying to put ourselves in

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their shoes if they're struggling with their sense of self their identity

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confusion you go oh my gosh I'm so sorry that this is so hard for you help me

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understand you know what's going on inside your head or inside your heart

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like I this has to be so difficult so there's no really like leaning into

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trying to understand what that the child is is dealing with and so part of

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empathy is being very curious and inviting curious that's a good word and

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inviting inviting help me understand I don't understand tell me a little bit

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more and you really want to open up that place where they can feel emotionally

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safe and empathy is one way for them to feel emotionally safe because if we

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shame them they feel disconnected they don't feel safe and so a parent needs to

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build an emotionally safe environment in that relationship and empathy empathy

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is an anecdote to shame Brené Brown talks about that it's an anecdote to so

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much of letting the defenses down to empathize so I'm trying I'm trying to put

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myself in the parents' place to know how to to do that so they listen and then

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they still have this desire to see something change and it may not happen

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at least not quickly not and none of this is quick the unraveling of why they

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landed where they landed is is not quick Judy and so they really have to stay

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the course and build the bridge one brick at a time a lot of us don't have

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that kind of patience we don't have that kind of patience and I think I can use

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this example of my son I think that was a strength of mine empathy and

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connection with him even though he drove me crazy and it pulled my hair out a

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lot but I give this example I think he was in middle school I mean this is kind

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of a young example but it carries over into how I parent him as a young adult

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as well but he had an iPod pod that he loved music and he had an iPod and he a

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nice one you know like a $300 iPod and he lost it and you know he was all

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upset and crying you know how much I connect to music how much I need music

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so I had this little iPod and so I said you can use mine and load it up you know

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you can use it try not to lose it and you know a couple weeks later he lost it

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and he's distraught you know you're gonna be so mad at me I lost this and I

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really need it and he was crying and remorseful and very very upset and and

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it was all I could do not to scream at him right like how come you yeah you

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know can't be responsible the whole parent reaction and I was driving to

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work that that morning frustrated angry and God whispers in my ear I want you

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to go buy him a new iPod and that $300 one oh there's my listeners are saying

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you can't do that right but I agree so I'm like fighting with God all the way

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to work I got on if time I don't have time I'm not doing this and really

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arguing a little bit God laid that on my heart and I had a hour-free near a

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radio shack when those were still around I went in I bought a $350 iPod I don't

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even know what I'm going to do with it but I bought it and God began to work

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in my heart and I came home and I said Jason come on sit on my bed I want to

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talk to you and I and this really came from God not from me at all Judy but I

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wasn't even sure what I was going to say and it just came out and I said Jason I

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bought you this iPod and he goes well why would you do that and I said well I

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said I know how much music means to you and I and I I want you to know that I

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get you I get it I get that music really means a lot to you and I just want you

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to know I get you and whether you deserve it or not I really want to give

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this as a gift and I want you to understand it comes from the heart of

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the father and he gave me a big hug and he couldn't believe it he never lost

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that iPod but you know the message that I gave him was two things I get you and

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I want to connect with what means something to you and that it came

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from the heart of the father didn't come from my angry heart it came from God's

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heart it was extravagant if you want to use that word it was unconditional and

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I think if there's anything that Jason would say about me and his journey I

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mean he honored me quite a bit in his wedding by the way it was that I

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extravagantly and unconditionally loved him and and I worked hard to connect I

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have an emotionally strong emotional connection to that son and he and he

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knows me on a shadow of a doubt how much I love him and so there was moments

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moments there moments Judy in the midst of much failure as a parent and I think

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as a parent the other thing I would say besides empathy is owning our part like

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what have I done to hurt you what have I done to wound you and taking

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responsibility for for my part and and God gave me opportunities all along with

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Jason to do that and one of my other sons is moved back from Michigan and

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we're having conversations and you know I'm learning things that hurt them and I

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think part of building that bridge is taking that ownership that responsibility

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that I did the best I could I didn't know that I hurt you right and really

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making amends with with these children and taking a look at our own hearts and

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that's not easy to do as a parent as a Christian parent no because we have high

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standards we we think everything we read is like is like a formula for success

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Judy and what I've realized I mean I read like I mean I'm a big reader I read

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a couple books a week I I love to read I'm jealous but I don't you know when

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people ask me about parenting books I go well I'm not really crazy about referring

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parenting books to you because each book contradicts the next the next and the

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next right so I have a few books and I'll say I want you to take a look at this

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book but take what sounds good to you and leave what doesn't because I don't

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think there's any one book that can really fully give you what you need in

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terms of the wisdom but the scriptures are adequate for that so I try to I try

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to really like tread lightly on the book side of things even though I'm a big

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book reader I'd rather read research than than just books but but but we've

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absorbed a lot of we should do this we shouldn't do that mentality you know as

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Christian parents well and yes I find that it's often helpful for myself and

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for reminding others to think about God's attitude toward you how much he

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loved you what did he do in the midst of all of your sin he still had his son

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die for you and he offers mercy and forgiveness and how many times do we

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have to come back and say oh I blew it again and what is his response I love

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you that's covered and and still God gives us desire then to to change and

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the strength and the wisdom to do it so he doesn't just leave us floundering in

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our bad decisions right he helps us move forward but I just find if I'll stop and

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think what God's response is and so I go off into Luke 15 and the and the father

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who sees his son coming and runs to him and won't even let him give his apology

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and and he's loving him and welcoming him and I just just the things you're

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talking about he built a bridge immediately he let him go when he chose

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to go yeah but he was watching he saw him from afar yeah he was watching he had

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anticipation yes and hope another another scripture that I look at is a

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woman at the well yes so Jesus he made connection with her he didn't shame her

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no he he let her know that he knew her and saw her and he offered her life

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living water living water yes and he embraced her where she was Judy like

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like in in Jesus offered her life in what we offer condemnation we offer

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judgment we throw shame at them when what we need to do is point them to Jesus

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yeah and we need to make connection with them because of Jesus living inside of

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us that may be the only way they see Jesus right and so that extravagant

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unconditional fierce love yes sacrificial love servanthood love whatever we we can

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do to let them know that we see them that we value them that we love them they

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already know we're not happy with some of their decision that's a given so they

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we don't need a harp on that just like the woman at the well you know you have

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four husbands I think it was maybe three I don't remember four but but the the

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point was he didn't say that to shame her he said that so that she would

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understand that he knew her and see her and so we don't take that that

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compassionate posture and and we throw all of our emotional stuff onto them

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yeah Jesus didn't do that now he did not we are human so we do that but we have

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to separate our emotional life from their emotional life and that is not easy to

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do and that's where parents need a support system around them so that they

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can purge out there and not transfer onto their adult children so helpful so we

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kind of talked more about younger children in our home but an awful lot of

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parents that I know their children have rejected them right and they will want

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nothing to do with them they won't let them see their kids so they don't get to

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even meet their grandchildren that's really challenging and so do you have

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any bridge building suggestions for them well I well that's a tough one Judy it

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is because if you can't cross the child's boundary correct right their

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adult children and you can't cross that that boundary and and so I think I mean

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the bridge building has to be just being available and very inviting in your

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posture with them loving unconditionally from a distance the best that you can do

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but I think Judy we're talking about you know something that these parents have

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to grieve the loss of what they had hoped this relationship would look like

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yes they have to really cultivate their relationship with God in their hope

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that he can do something and we have to pray diligently for them I mean

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sometimes there's not a whole lot else we can do if that boundary is set in it

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and we can't we it feels hopeless for some of those parents well and it's it

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is at a point in time yes because there's really nothing you can do but wait and

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pray and if an opportunity to show love and acceptance and extravagant love

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even you take it but a lot of it's you're waiting and praying yeah and in

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another approach is is really kind of having to really grieve the loss

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completely Judy and with that being said I think the goal can't be how can I get

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my child to love me again it has to be getting on our knees and praying that

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they would see their need for God and maybe God could bring this person into

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their life that could make a difference and turn them around because the real

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redemptive story we really want is that they reconcile with God yes it'd be great

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if they reconcile with the parents but I think the perspective taking that that

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parent has to have it it requires a lot of grief a lot of loss yes that there's

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a there's got to be a hope that that could happen but the greater redemptive

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piece is that they'll see their need for God I just got a word today an email

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from a mom who said I just want you to know that my daughter has come back to

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me and to God and she's just she says we were she came and she said I'm so sorry

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and the mom could say I'm so sorry for you because the contributions go both

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ways and she just she says we laughed and we prayed and we danced because it

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was so wonderful to be restored they're restoring yeah and and but that's the way

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it is when people are restored to God but we can't make it happen we cannot make

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it happen we think we can and we can't that's just amazing so we could talk a

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long time I think but probably we don't get to so let me just let you kind of

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any other thoughts that you would want to make sure that that my listeners heard

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I mean I think I think as parents whatever their age might be I think you

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go as you try to give them all the support they can eat even if that means

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some professional support I mean rehab centers for addicts are expensive yeah

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you know I mean I mean I've gone broke over the money that I've invested for

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example but God's the one that provides but I think because the process

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particularly for addictions the process for sexual dysfunctions for example as

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well identity confusion those are long processes and so I would you know just

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encourage Christian parents to do everything and anything they can do to

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get their their adult children into some kind of help outside of them yes because

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you know when we're unraveling the trauma story we're also addressing

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sobriety and addiction but in order for that to be a real redemptive success

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story you've got to kind of reshape or reframe the way that they think about

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themselves God and their place in the world for example because it's been full

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of negativity of self-sabotaging belief systems false beliefs and so the

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counseling room I spend a lot of time with identity reformation I call it and

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for real spiritual transformation we have to have identity reformation and so

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I'm doing a lot of work in the counseling room with Christians reformatting

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their belief system even about God and so that process is quite lengthy and I

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encourage you know people to read more about this about you know identity our

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real true identity formation in Christ but I do a lot of that work with addicts

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and recovering people because if they begin to change their belief system

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about God and themselves that's empowering yes it is that that that is so

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empowering and it's hopeful because they feel so stuck I I can't I can't I can't

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I said you can you can you can you know like like but it it's a process you think

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you know we brought in your with your help somebody from a Moldova and a

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young adult married man and I spent all the time that I spent with him was in

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this reformation of his sense of self and identity in Christ because that's so

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important it took two hours every week for four weeks and I had my board and

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we're working through what are the lie base thoughts what are your false

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beliefs how are they attached to your emotions and behaviors let's address them

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and I did this reformation of his identity and it's it's it's grounding in

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life-changing because that's where God does the spiritual transformation has to

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come from truth Judy and we do know some truth even if we don't always live it

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out well right especially to a misbehaving making bad decisions instead of

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calling that we have to use other adjectives more empowering average

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adjectives I appreciate your hard work I see your effort you know instead of

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cutting them down we need to build them up so any opportunity to throw out you

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know adjectives that that are life-giving we need to do more of that

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more of that more of that because we're honed in on the poor behavior and how

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it's affecting them and us but not their value in right right their value in

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Christ their value to us that we care we love them and even to recognize God

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entrusted them to us and we are not professionals and none of us almost

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maybe if you've had four or five kids you get better at it or you get tired

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but yeah it's I love the concept of interested and that therefore just as

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I've been interested with a responsibility I need to learn I need to

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practice I need to seek to improve and that is required of us as parents or

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teachers or bosses you know that we all have the opportunity to help a person

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rise up as opposed to push them down and I'll tell you a story as we close so

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my son whose first nine years were pretty hard with his addicted mother and

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the people she was with and he just he was addicted and he made lots of bad

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choices he had a person that he loved and that was his grandfather who was in

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his early life the only real man in his life and he adored his grandfather and

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his grandfather became very ill and was dying and so he just told his boss

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because he had a job which he didn't always and he said I'm sorry my

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grandfather's dying I'm going to be with him so he spent a week there as his

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grandfather was declining and he just poured out his heart to him and and told

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him all the hurts of his life and all the value that his grandfather had been

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to him and when his grandfather died we thought that he might take his own life

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as a result because he was losing the most important person in his life and

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instead he said I'm going to make Papa proud I'm going to change my life I want

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to make him proud of me wow and that was a major turning point in his life now

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there were still things that had to change but that was it because this

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person had been important connection the connection he had valued him and it was

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just the power of connection yeah it's beautiful it's so we're made for it

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we're created for it yeah like that these kids they need they need it they

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they need this they need unconditional lavish extravagant love and the effort

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to hear and not just tell mm-hmm and to not shame but to lift up give them the

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positive things give them the encouragement and you know both of us

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would probably say I wish we knew what we know now you know 40 years ago 30

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years ago like but we yeah 40 we can only really try to equip and encourage

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younger moms along the way because we didn't know what we know today and

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there's a platform for us to be you know discipling other mothers you know and

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families around some of these important values thank you and to my listeners did

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you write down a few ideas can you begin to practice them this week and the show

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notes you will read of some resources that Nancy is going to give us to be

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helpful to you even though she's not sure she can recommend books there might

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be a few so thank you Nancy I really appreciate your coming in and and

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speaking truth and love and encouragement to these people who love a

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prodigal so well it's a privilege it's my privilege thank you God bless you and

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God bless you to my listeners