Pam Henkelman, Empty Nest Coach, episode 171

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help

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and hope for your wilderness journey right here

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at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. And

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also help and hope for your own life journey.

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Don't forget, if you want to remember something

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that we're talking about, have that pen and paper

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or your phone there so you can jot down the ideas.

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Because if you don't, you will not remember.

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At least I never do. So our guest today is a

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new friend, though we've been connecting online.

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Her name is Pamela Henkelman. She is a certified

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Empty Nest coach. I bet you haven't heard of

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that before. It's a wonderful thing. She's committed

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to helping a lot of women through a really challenging

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time of transition in their lives. And when you've

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been used to having one, two, three, six, whatever

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number of children, my daughter has five, one

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of them. And all of a sudden, they're all gone.

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You go, who am I? Who am I? What do I do? What's

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my purpose now? So I'm sure that she will have

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things that will encourage in that. But in that

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same vein, an awful lot of us are in that time.

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where kids are making choices that weren't the

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ones we were hoping for. Some of them are just

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not so interested in their faith or are doing

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things that are just different than we anticipated.

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Some of them are making some really bad choices,

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scary choices, where their life is at risk. And

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some of them, which seems to have increased a

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lot lately, they're adult kids. are turning their

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backs. They decide they didn't like what they

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heard when they were growing up, and they've

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turned their backs. And so, Pamela, I am looking

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forward to the fact that you're going to help

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us through those kinds of situations and just

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give us some really practical helps that maybe

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we haven't thought of yet. And most of us have

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been desperate. Even I, who... We went through

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a 15 -year journey. But that was the end of the

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bad part. But it hasn't been easy since then

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either. But he's not doing the things that he

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was doing. But life has still been hard. And

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I'm just kind of a little giddy right now because

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his wife really got excited about the Lord. And

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they have been to church four weeks, four Sundays

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in a row. And I'm like. Really? And one of them

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was Easter and I went with them and they hadn't

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gone to that church and they loved it. And it's

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just like, yay. That's a beautiful win. Yes.

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And it was not, you know, when you have in -laws,

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you don't push very much, you know, so it doesn't

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work that way. So Pamela is the mom of five grown

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children, and she has four grandchildren. And

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she's had firsthand experience with the challenges

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and joys of navigating the empty nest phase of

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life. She and her husband of 37 years are living

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their best empty nest life and loving every minute

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of it. Here's a sentence that she had on her

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website that I think is some of the best advice.

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If you don't hear anything else today, listen

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to this. Talk less and pray more. Lead with love.

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And I think those are some of the most important

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words you'll hear. Just, you know, keep your

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mouth shut a little more and listen. And don't

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just look like you're listening. hear what they're

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saying and love. Keep loving, keep loving, keep

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loving. So Pamela, welcome. Thank you. I'm so

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glad to be here. Well, I'm so glad that you are.

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So tell us a little more than those facts about

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your family. Yeah, well, we used to be in four

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different states. Now we're down to two and we're

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pretty thrilled about it. So now we're only...

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Because we're in four. We're pretty thrilled

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about it. Three live in Minnesota, and then two

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live in Iowa, and we live in Iowa. So now the

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farthest drive is four hours. The closest is

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an hour and a half. So it's just a treat. I'm

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jealous. I know. It's a treat to be able to see

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them. Matter of fact, I was able to watch my

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little seven -month granddaughter, Wren, this

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morning. How wonderful. What a special, special

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treat. Now, what caused you to start your ministry,

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your job, your being an empty nest coach? Well,

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as my fourth child was heading off to college,

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I thought, what in the world am I going to do

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now? And we have five kids. So I was just praying

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about it. And I said, Lord, I've had this dream

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to write books for years. And I had been a speaker

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for a long time. Then I was like, if I'm going

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to write a book, I should learn how to write

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a book. So I just started writing. I just said,

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hey, I could start blogging. I started blogging.

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Oh, well, blogging is a good way to start writing.

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And so I did that in 2018. And I have the gift

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of exhortation. So I just love encouraging others.

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Then I went to a writing conference in 2021.

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And I knew that I was going to write three books.

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One about some miracles we've experienced. One

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about being a pastor's wife. That's just a whole

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nother thing. And Ben, I really wanted to write

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a book about parenting adult children because

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I felt like this was such an overlooked group

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of women. We are so beautifully supported when

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our children are young, babies, childhood, teenagers,

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and then they graduate and the world goes quiet

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and women are left wondering, what am I supposed

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to do now? It is the largest transition in your

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life. It's just as impactful as when you first

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became a mom. We're supported beautifully as

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our children are growing. And then once our children

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reach adulthood, the world goes quiet and we

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say, what do we do? But it's as large of a transition

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when you're launching your kids as when you became

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a mother. And so it was just my heart behind

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that in wanting to help women do better in this

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season of their life, to learn to let go sooner.

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to learn to stop directing and start supporting

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because that is the greatest shift. And that's

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what trips most moms up is they don't stop telling

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their kids what to do. And if you've met any

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18, 19, 20, 21, 35, 36, 37, they do not want

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to be told what to do, nor should they be told

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what to do by their parents. We've had our season

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and our time is over. So I just really like to

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support women. in helping them have healthy relationships

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with their adult kids and healthy empty nest

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marriages. And do they adapt to that very well?

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Oh, yeah. I mean, women are hungry to know how

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to do things differently because we haven't talked

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about it enough. And then when they feel this

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tension in their relationship, they're like,

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oh, it's me? It's me. Like I'm responsible. It's

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me. That's the problem. Yeah. And I'm not, it's

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not about blaming. It's just about helping moms

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understand we need to shift. We need to adjust.

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We need to let go. And, you know, no mom wants

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her child living in their basement when the child

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is 35. You know, we don't want that. And if we

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don't let go, if we don't. support our kids.

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If we don't communicate that I believe in you,

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you have what it takes to be an adult, to build

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your own life, to problem solve, to be wise in

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your relationships. Like we can encourage them,

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but we don't, we can just hold it all so much

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more loosely. And it's the mom who wants to hold

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on tight and control everything. Almost always,

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I think, yes. That really struggles. She will

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struggle. She will have the hardest time ever.

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So it seems to me that you would want to be letting

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go because that would say, I've done a good job.

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They're ready to go. They're ready to be independent.

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But sometimes that doesn't happen because...

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Some of it's personality, probably, and some

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people are higher controlled than others. But

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you just say, did I do a good enough job that

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they're ready for that world out there? Right,

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right. That is one thing I think that moms really

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struggle with is regret. Oh, if I would have

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only done this. But here's what I know about

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the Lord. He takes us where we are at right now,

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and He says, work with me. Let's see what we

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can do. We cannot go back. We can always apologize.

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I cannot tell you how many times I've said to

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my grown kids, gosh, I'm sorry that I handled

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it like that. I didn't know better, but back

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then I was doing the best with what I knew at

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the time. I would do it totally different. Now,

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even in our own family of having five kids, the

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way I parented our older children and the younger

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ones, it's very different. Totally different.

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Totally different. I was so much more relaxed.

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I was so much more easygoing. So I really, actually,

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I was a pretty good learner. When my first daughter

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got married, I was, well, let's just say I was

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wanting to make sure that my new son -in -law

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knew what a gem he'd gotten. And to make sure

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that he had the right attitudes about what she

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could do and what she was like and stuff. And

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after a couple of failed conversations, he said,

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why do you bring this up? I said, well, because

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my daughter is a very gifted, talented person.

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And I just want to make sure that you help her

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grow into all that she's supposed to be and God

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has meant for her. And he says, oh, okay. Oh,

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okay. There's this beautiful passage, you know,

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where the Bible says that we are to leave our

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parents and cleave to our spouse. And the mom

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who doesn't allow that to happen is really hurting

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her child's relationship with their spouse. Yes.

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Oh, absolutely. And let me jump then to some

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prodigal issues. a variety of different things

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that come up. But one of the ones I'm encountering

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the most now is that adult children who either

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rejected the faith of their parents or didn't

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like the way the parents parented them or don't

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like the way the parents are interfering with

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them. And they don't just kind of avoid them

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sometimes. That happens. But they actually won't

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talk to them anymore. And they won't let them

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see their grandchildren. And I could start naming

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ones I know personally where they're in the middle

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of them. And it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.

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It's not supposed to be like this. So what encouragement,

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wisdom, ideas do you have for our listeners who

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are in that? Well, I think the first thing we

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need to remember is that our grown kids are responsible

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for their relationship with God. We are not responsible

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for their relationship. You did your part. You

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raised your kids to know the Lord. You did all

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the things that the Lord required to you. But

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once your children reach adulthood, that no longer

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falls under your jurisdiction. And I think that's

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where talk less, listen more, and pray more would

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be so helpful. Here's what I've discovered about

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my kids. They just want me to listen, like literally

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listen. So when I say, hey, how you doing with

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God? And they tell me something that is absolute

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100 % opposite of the way I raised them, I don't

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freak out. I've learned that this isn't about

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me. This isn't about what I did. This is about

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them and how they are wrestling and they're trying

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on ideas. And we may think, why in the world

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would I try that idea on? You know, but like

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we don't get to decide that. And they're thinking

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through things and processing things. And so

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when they tell me what they think, I always say,

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thanks for sharing your heart with me. Because

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I want my child to know that I will. Always listen

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to them. Listening does not equate agreeing.

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And I think this is where moms really struggle

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because they're like, well, I can't listen to

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it because if I listen to it, then they'll think

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I agree. And no, that is not the case. And then

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you also don't need to argue. I think more relationships

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are destroyed by moms who won't keep their mouth

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shut and just listen and say thank you. And then

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I will keep loving you no matter what, no matter

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what you believe, no matter what you think about

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God, even when your life goes horribly wrong.

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And we know that there are some situations where

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prodigals, you know, addiction and just poor

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financial choices and all kinds of messes. We

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know that. But I look at the story of the prodigal

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son, and I always focus on the father. I just

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think about him and his, how he, I imagine each

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day he looks down the lane and he thought, well,

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I wonder if today's the day. I wonder if today's

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the day. Like he had this such expectancy in

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his heart. And I think the enemy wants to convince

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moms that our kids are too far gone, but they

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are not too far gone because God is always working.

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He's always doing so much more than we can think.

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That is hard for us to imagine because we think

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it looks like it's going horribly wrong and you're

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devastated. And yet we think about all the people

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in the Bible who God suddenly, suddenly. And

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that word suddenly gives me such hope. I'm telling

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you, I stand on it and I say, I can't wait. I

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can't wait till my kids suddenly return. But

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in the meantime. I have great relationships with

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my kids who don't walk with God. I have great

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relationships. That's so important. Yeah. That's

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all I want. I just want them to know that I love

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them. And how do you convince them that you love

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them? We spend time together. We talk. We don't

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avoid topics. We try not to walk on eggshells.

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And sometimes it's difficult, especially in the

00:15:39.210 --> 00:15:41.889
political realm. That can be very taxing. But

00:15:41.889 --> 00:15:44.580
I've also learned that I just need to listen.

00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:47.659
I need to give them space to talk. This is where

00:15:47.659 --> 00:15:49.940
they're coming from. I don't have to agree with

00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:52.879
it, but I do have to honor them as a human. They're

00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.679
my children, for heaven's sakes. They're not

00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.399
just any humans. Yeah, they're my children. And

00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.720
honor goes such a far way in the kingdom of God.

00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:05.970
Yes, it does. So you've mentioned especially

00:16:05.970 --> 00:16:10.629
moms. I have known a few high control dads. I'm

00:16:10.629 --> 00:16:13.269
sure. I'm sure. But because my ministry is to

00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:15.370
moms, I don't talk to moms. I don't talk to dads

00:16:15.370 --> 00:16:19.929
too much. Okay. Any thoughts for them? I mean.

00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:23.450
For the mom with the high control dad? I mean,

00:16:23.490 --> 00:16:26.169
I think people control because they're scared.

00:16:26.649 --> 00:16:29.850
They're scared. It's too scary. So I have to,

00:16:29.970 --> 00:16:35.250
you know. You come at it so you can have a sense

00:16:35.250 --> 00:16:37.909
of peace and control, when really control, it's

00:16:37.909 --> 00:16:40.990
all an illusion. No one has control. God is supposed

00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:42.929
to be in control. Mom and dad are not supposed

00:16:42.929 --> 00:16:45.649
to, and especially not the mom and dad of adult

00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:53.090
children. You laugh. Well, but it's really true.

00:16:55.669 --> 00:16:59.289
I've seen so many that it's the kids really are

00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:03.139
like, leave me. If you're going to always disagree

00:17:03.139 --> 00:17:07.759
or tell me what to do or say I'm making bad choices

00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.579
when I'm happy with my choices, then I don't

00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:15.539
want to talk to you anymore. Now that is a heartbreaking

00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:18.420
thing. Yeah, but then that's on the parents.

00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:21.259
If the parents don't want to be a little more

00:17:21.259 --> 00:17:26.180
gentle and Christ -like in that, we play a responsibility.

00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.339
We have to stop always looking at the prodigal.

00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:31.910
I think a lot of moms will say, well, if my child

00:17:31.910 --> 00:17:35.349
did this. And I think the Lord is saying, hey,

00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:39.269
in his kindness, he's so tender and gentle with

00:17:39.269 --> 00:17:42.089
us. Isn't he, though? Yes, when he says, hey,

00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:46.450
mama, how about this? Let's work on this. And

00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:49.809
he's so gracious and kind to help us adjust our

00:17:49.809 --> 00:17:54.349
attitude, adjust our tone, adjust our demands,

00:17:54.829 --> 00:17:58.839
or adjust our just expectations. Hello? I think

00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:03.700
expectations equal just like trouble. Trouble.

00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:08.299
And it's easy to have them because we had a view

00:18:08.299 --> 00:18:12.220
of what the future would be. Oh, and we did,

00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.420
didn't we? We did. This child, it looks like

00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:18.160
they're going to be this. And this one's this.

00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:21.279
Yes, yes. So here's where we have to understand

00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.519
that we are separate. And this is another thing

00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.990
that moms really struggle with. Because our identity

00:18:28.990 --> 00:18:32.589
is so tied to our motherhood, we are so attached

00:18:32.589 --> 00:18:35.269
to our children that sometimes we can't separate

00:18:35.269 --> 00:18:38.690
and realize that I'm my own person and my adult

00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:41.650
child is their own person making their own choices.

00:18:41.750 --> 00:18:46.990
We are not meant to be that, like, sometimes

00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:52.670
it's codependent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Codependent.

00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:57.200
Yes, that's when our son was at a... home for

00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:01.279
troubled kids. They talked a lot about codependence,

00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:05.640
and that's a challenge. So we have to remember

00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.519
that our happiness does not come from the way

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.640
our children behave. Our happiness comes from

00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.279
our relationship with God. Our identity in Christ

00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.700
as fully loved, cherished, chosen, forgiven,

00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:22.619
valuable. It has nothing to do with the outcomes

00:19:22.619 --> 00:19:27.880
of life circumstances, or children's lives. So

00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:31.940
if you were talking to a mom whose child was

00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:36.920
in addiction, and that drives them to crime usually,

00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:43.839
and that drives them often to jail, prison, or

00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.579
a place where they're supposed to be getting

00:19:46.579 --> 00:19:50.039
help, and sometimes they do and sometimes they

00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:54.500
don't. What do you say to her in that hard time?

00:19:54.619 --> 00:19:57.480
Right. Well, my husband and I actually, we did

00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.480
pastoral ministry for 24 years, and now we work

00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.740
for a ministry called Adult and Teen Challenge.

00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.420
And so we work with addicts every day. My husband

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:08.779
mentors the men, and then I do family ministry,

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.319
so I support the wives. So it's not necessarily

00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.099
moms, but again, I would always say it's about

00:20:15.099 --> 00:20:18.559
working on yourself. It's about paying attention

00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.670
to yourself and saying, God, What is it in me

00:20:21.670 --> 00:20:24.950
that you want to change? What is it in me that

00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:27.690
you want to soften? What is it in me that you

00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:31.049
want to heal? Honestly, that's all we have control

00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:34.509
of. We want to have control of everything and

00:20:34.509 --> 00:20:38.230
our children, but we don't. But we get to partner

00:20:38.230 --> 00:20:41.369
with God in being whole. We get to partner with

00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:46.349
God in seeing His grand hand in all of it. He

00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:48.849
is writing our kids' stories, and I am so glad

00:20:48.849 --> 00:20:53.660
that He's not finished. He's not finished. One

00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:57.940
of the things that I've noticed a lot is how

00:20:57.940 --> 00:21:03.579
hard it is for a parent to grab hold of. This

00:21:03.579 --> 00:21:07.339
isn't about your child. It's about you. God,

00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:10.019
yes, he's working. He's working on your child,

00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:14.019
all of your children. But he's also working on

00:21:14.019 --> 00:21:19.990
you. And this situation. is perhaps a very wonderful

00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:24.029
gift to you to enable God to do what he wants.

00:21:24.049 --> 00:21:28.910
Yes, yes. Yeah, I think a level of self -awareness

00:21:28.910 --> 00:21:31.769
is required. And I think the mom who struggles

00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:34.230
most is the one who doesn't quite understand

00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:38.950
this component of it and what God wants to do

00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:42.190
in her. Like, it's beautiful. He brings such

00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:47.079
healing layer upon layer upon layer. And when

00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.019
we're whole and we're walking in the reality

00:21:50.019 --> 00:21:52.680
of who Christ says we are, that's when we're

00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.460
able to love. But if we're stuck in this desire

00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:59.920
to control and impact outcomes and all these

00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:03.660
things, we just become more miserable. I think

00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:06.019
the greatest example, what is the definition

00:22:06.019 --> 00:22:09.859
of codependency is doing something and then hoping

00:22:09.859 --> 00:22:13.539
the other person will change. You're doing all

00:22:13.539 --> 00:22:16.329
the work and the addict is still like, Just living

00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:21.069
their life. Not impacted one way. You're right.

00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:27.490
So what do you say to a family grew up in a church

00:22:27.490 --> 00:22:35.750
that's fairly rigid? And you've grown in being

00:22:35.750 --> 00:22:39.750
able to have open hands with your child, but

00:22:39.750 --> 00:22:44.809
the church hasn't. And you get the... kick back

00:22:44.809 --> 00:22:47.150
from it. Yeah, well, here's the deal. I remember

00:22:47.150 --> 00:22:50.650
one Saturday, we were just having a women's breakfast,

00:22:50.750 --> 00:22:54.970
and the Lord said, I usually prepare something,

00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:56.869
and the Lord's like, today I want you to tell

00:22:56.869 --> 00:23:00.029
them about your prodigals. And so it was a small,

00:23:00.089 --> 00:23:02.410
it was a group of maybe 20 women. It was a small

00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:05.049
group, just Saturday morning, we're eating donuts

00:23:05.049 --> 00:23:08.289
and wearing our sweats, and I just said, hey,

00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:10.470
I just want to, I want you to know where I'm

00:23:10.470 --> 00:23:15.160
at with some of my kids. And one after one after

00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:20.240
one after one, they said, me too. And they said,

00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:25.920
we've never been able to talk about it. That

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.660
happens a lot. And it just broke my heart. And

00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:33.180
I'm like, church, these moms carry so much shame.

00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:36.920
Like, they had one assignment for their child

00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:40.339
to love God, and they feel like a failure. And

00:23:40.339 --> 00:23:44.630
they're not. But we have to make it safe. We

00:23:44.630 --> 00:23:47.069
have to make it safe for women to say, yeah,

00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.930
I love a prodigal too. And it's hard, but God

00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:53.869
is working. And we have to create space where

00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:57.210
people feel safe. You know, I remember talking

00:23:57.210 --> 00:24:01.690
to a ministry leader at one time, and I thought,

00:24:01.750 --> 00:24:04.069
you know, with her perfect little family and

00:24:04.069 --> 00:24:07.250
all the kids serve Jesus. And I was like, you

00:24:07.250 --> 00:24:11.250
got nothing for me. You can't relate to me. You

00:24:11.250 --> 00:24:14.250
can't relate to me. And I was like, I'm never

00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:17.369
going to be that kind of ministry leader. I'm

00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:20.450
going to be honest, and I'm going to share my

00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:23.230
struggles in hopes that someone else will have

00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:26.630
the courage to also do that. So I think in the

00:24:26.630 --> 00:24:28.890
church, let's just start having these conversations

00:24:28.890 --> 00:24:34.269
where it's okay to say, yeah, we actually really

00:24:34.269 --> 00:24:36.849
don't have it all together either. And we have

00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:39.769
some prodigals, and God still loves us. And we

00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:42.230
served God with all of our heart, and yet our

00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:46.230
kids still chose differently. So it's just about

00:24:46.230 --> 00:24:49.809
grace. Could we just be gracious? It is about

00:24:49.809 --> 00:24:55.910
grace. In fact, I have four words that are the

00:24:55.910 --> 00:25:00.890
words that have changed my life on our long journey.

00:25:01.769 --> 00:25:04.690
And I even had the excuse, well, he wasn't ours,

00:25:04.769 --> 00:25:09.230
really. We adopted him. He was already a mess

00:25:09.230 --> 00:25:12.289
when we got him. But anyway, my four words, see

00:25:12.289 --> 00:25:15.269
if I can remember them. Love. Keep loving them,

00:25:15.289 --> 00:25:18.609
no matter what. No matter how bad what they do

00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:23.029
is, I have to love them. Mercy. I just thank

00:25:23.029 --> 00:25:26.549
God for his mercy all the time. For me, for my

00:25:26.549 --> 00:25:30.210
family, for anybody I know, it's his mercy. Grace.

00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:33.230
As we go forward, just keep extending grace.

00:25:33.730 --> 00:25:36.569
And then there's a different one, and that is

00:25:36.569 --> 00:25:40.650
to bless them. To look for ways that will speak

00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:43.890
blessing to them. And it can be little things.

00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:48.890
One time, my son was, he left with great anger

00:25:48.890 --> 00:25:52.289
because I called him on something that he had

00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:58.150
done. And so he took off. So I went up to his

00:25:58.150 --> 00:26:00.710
room. gathered all his dirty clothes because

00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:03.349
that was one of his jobs was to do his own laundry.

00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:07.569
And I took them and I put each piece one by one

00:26:07.569 --> 00:26:11.009
in the washing machine. I bless you, Josh. I

00:26:11.009 --> 00:26:14.069
bless you, Josh. I bless you, Josh. Now, some

00:26:14.069 --> 00:26:15.910
people, that wouldn't be a big deal. For him

00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:18.009
to have his clothes clean actually was a big

00:26:18.009 --> 00:26:23.910
deal. And so just to go beyond even open hands,

00:26:23.970 --> 00:26:27.599
the easy holding. To actually look for ways to

00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.259
bless them because they probably don't experience

00:26:30.259 --> 00:26:33.259
much blessing if they're in the kind of situations

00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:37.980
we're talking about. Exactly. Another thought

00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:42.519
or question I have is I do know quite a few whose

00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:46.539
kids have cut off all contact with them. And

00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:50.480
so they can't call them. They can't. rescue them.

00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:56.480
They can't even write to them. If they send gifts

00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.960
to the children, they'll come back. What hope

00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:04.099
is there for them? Again, it's so heartbreaking,

00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:07.920
and it's so common. And yet, we know that there's

00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.480
not one thing we can do to change that except

00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:14.940
to work on ourselves. You have to say, Lord,

00:27:15.860 --> 00:27:18.799
There's got to be something in me that also needs

00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.160
to adjust. For them to have such a strong reaction,

00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:25.440
there's got to be something in me. And so show

00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.140
me, Lord. And then just gently and kindly allow

00:27:29.140 --> 00:27:32.380
the Lord to show you, to reveal it. Say less

00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:34.559
because you know you can't, but you can pray

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.119
like crazy. Let's never forget the power of prayer.

00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:40.259
Never forget the power of prayer. Never forget

00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.700
it. God is always at working. He sees you. He

00:27:43.700 --> 00:27:46.880
knows you. He sees them. He knows them. And in

00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.400
the right time, he will bring healing. But often,

00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:54.480
it starts with us first. Because we are the leader

00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.180
in the relationship. Because you were the mom,

00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.500
you know, back when they were kids. You did have

00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.619
this hierarchy where you were higher. And so,

00:28:03.619 --> 00:28:06.519
as our children become adults, that hierarchy

00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:09.700
flattens. And yet, you will always be the parent

00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:12.259
in their eye. And so, you take the high road.

00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:17.299
You do the thing. You do the work. And then trust

00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:21.180
God's timing. Well, Pamela, what other helpful

00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:25.019
thoughts for these people are hurting? Yeah.

00:28:25.180 --> 00:28:27.339
And some of the hurt they bring on themselves.

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.059
Yeah. And some of it, they're even trying to

00:28:31.059 --> 00:28:35.359
do it right, and their kids are not making what

00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.400
they like as the choices. I want to leave you

00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.000
with this thought about listening for understanding.

00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.319
You know, we can listen. And here's what's happened.

00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:46.920
As we're listening, we're like, we're thinking,

00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:48.720
what am I going to say next? What am I going

00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.420
to say next? What am I going to say next? You

00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:53.319
know, we do it with our spouses. We can do it

00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:56.680
with anyone. But then you're not actually listening.

00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.460
So start doing this technique called mirroring,

00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:03.200
where you just simply respond back with what

00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.299
your child says. So if your child says something.

00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:08.019
Then you just repeat it back. You say, so what

00:29:08.019 --> 00:29:10.539
I hear you saying is, and then you repeat it

00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:12.660
back. And then you ask them, is that correct?

00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:15.400
And they'll say, yeah, mom, that's correct. And

00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:17.119
if it's not correct, they'll be like, no, mom,

00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.680
you didn't hear me at all. And then, so it's

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.299
just about learning healthy ways of communication.

00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:26.279
And you're listening to understand your child's

00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.420
heart. You're not listening to correct. You're

00:29:29.420 --> 00:29:33.720
not listening to have a wonderful rebuttal. This

00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.960
is not the debate team. You're listening to understand

00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.940
your adult child. I think that's what our kids

00:29:39.940 --> 00:29:43.799
want. Our grown children want us, they want us

00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.099
to empathize. They want us to join them in their

00:29:48.099 --> 00:29:51.980
pain and say, I see that that's really hard for

00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:54.079
you. I'm sorry that it's so hard for you right

00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.920
now. And then listen to understand. Use this

00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.890
phrase. So what I hear you saying is. It's a

00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:05.930
great technique. Okay, so did y 'all write that

00:30:05.930 --> 00:30:10.509
down? What I hear you saying is... Yes, that's

00:30:10.509 --> 00:30:14.250
it. That's a really good thing. Oh, Pamela, this

00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:19.430
was really wonderful. Such practical, real, revolutionary

00:30:19.430 --> 00:30:24.269
ideas. And if we can get to the point where we

00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:28.349
ourselves can open our hands, open our minds.

00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:32.039
And not have to control things. But let them.

00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:35.539
They're grown now. Now, if we're talking about

00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:37.960
teenagers, that's a little bit different. But

00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.539
you can learn a lot about the same things. Because

00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:43.980
they're trying to figure out who they are. Thank

00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:47.039
you. Thank you very much. I think our listeners

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:51.089
will love that. And we're going to put in the

00:30:51.089 --> 00:30:55.210
show notes a couple of places they can go that

00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:58.470
you're going to give me just to get more information.

00:30:58.690 --> 00:31:01.369
And we would love to do that. Yes, I too have

00:31:01.369 --> 00:31:04.009
a podcast. I have the Midlife Mama podcast. And

00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:06.509
episodes come out every Thursday where we're

00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:09.109
just talking about all things midlife moms and

00:31:09.109 --> 00:31:13.220
empty nesting. That's great. I'm glad. And I

00:31:13.220 --> 00:31:15.700
didn't know until I was reading up about you

00:31:15.700 --> 00:31:18.559
more that you actually had a podcast as well.

00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:22.059
But I could tell by the things you were saying

00:31:22.059 --> 00:31:25.920
that you had the right message for these parents

00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.460
that are struggling. Grandparents as well, they

00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:34.980
can often be better at listening because they

00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:39.440
have not been in control. they can play a role.

00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:41.420
And you've heard some really good things from

00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:44.579
Pamela. So thank you, ma 'am. Thank you. I'm

00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:46.700
just so grateful. God bless you.