Pam Henkelman, Empty Nest Coach, episode 171

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. And also help and hope for your own life journey. Don't forget, if you want to remember something that we're talking about, have that pen and paper or your phone there so you can jot down the ideas. Because if you don't, you will not remember. At least I never do. So our guest today is a new friend, though we've been connecting online. Her name is Pamela Henkelman. She is a certified Empty Nest coach. I bet you haven't heard of that before. It's a wonderful thing. She's committed to helping a lot of women through a really challenging time of transition in their lives. And when you've been used to having one, two, three, six, whatever number of children, my daughter has five, one of them. And all of a sudden, they're all gone.

1:05 You go, who am I? Who am I? What do I do? What's my purpose now? So I'm sure that she will have things that will encourage in that. But in that same vein, an awful lot of us are in that time. where kids are making choices that weren't the ones we were hoping for. Some of them are just not so interested in their faith or are doing things that are just different than we anticipated. Some of them are making some really bad choices, scary choices, where their life is at risk. And some of them, which seems to have increased a lot lately, they're adult kids. are turning their backs. They decide they didn't like what they heard when they were growing up, and they've turned their backs. And so, Pamela, I am looking forward to the fact that you're going to help us through those kinds of situations and just give us some really practical helps that maybe we haven't thought of yet. And most of us have been desperate. Even I, who... We went through a 15 -year journey. But that was the end of the bad part. But it hasn't been easy since then either. But he's not doing the things that he was doing. But life has still been hard. And

2:36 I'm just kind of a little giddy right now because his wife really got excited about the Lord. And they have been to church four weeks, four Sundays in a row. And I'm like. Really? And one of them was Easter and I went with them and they hadn't gone to that church and they loved it. And it's just like, yay. That's a beautiful win. Yes. And it was not, you know, when you have in -laws, you don't push very much, you know, so it doesn't work that way. So Pamela is the mom of five grown children, and she has four grandchildren. And she's had firsthand experience with the challenges and joys of navigating the empty nest phase of life. She and her husband of 37 years are living their best empty nest life and loving every minute of it. Here's a sentence that she had on her website that I think is some of the best advice.

3:42 If you don't hear anything else today, listen to this. Talk less and pray more. Lead with love. And I think those are some of the most important words you'll hear. Just, you know, keep your mouth shut a little more and listen. And don't just look like you're listening. hear what they're saying and love. Keep loving, keep loving, keep loving. So Pamela, welcome. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Well, I'm so glad that you are. So tell us a little more than those facts about your family. Yeah, well, we used to be in four different states. Now we're down to two and we're pretty thrilled about it. So now we're only...

4:31 Because we're in four. We're pretty thrilled about it. Three live in Minnesota, and then two live in Iowa, and we live in Iowa. So now the farthest drive is four hours. The closest is an hour and a half. So it's just a treat. I'm jealous. I know. It's a treat to be able to see them. Matter of fact, I was able to watch my little seven -month granddaughter, Wren, this morning. How wonderful. What a special, special treat. Now, what caused you to start your ministry, your job, your being an empty nest coach? Well, as my fourth child was heading off to college, I thought, what in the world am I going to do now? And we have five kids. So I was just praying about it. And I said, Lord, I've had this dream to write books for years. And I had been a speaker for a long time. Then I was like, if I'm going to write a book, I should learn how to write a book. So I just started writing. I just said, hey, I could start blogging. I started blogging.

5:30 Oh, well, blogging is a good way to start writing. And so I did that in 2018. And I have the gift of exhortation. So I just love encouraging others. Then I went to a writing conference in 2021. And I knew that I was going to write three books. One about some miracles we've experienced. One about being a pastor's wife. That's just a whole nother thing. And Ben, I really wanted to write a book about parenting adult children because I felt like this was such an overlooked group of women. We are so beautifully supported when our children are young, babies, childhood, teenagers, and then they graduate and the world goes quiet and women are left wondering, what am I supposed to do now? It is the largest transition in your life. It's just as impactful as when you first became a mom. We're supported beautifully as our children are growing. And then once our children reach adulthood, the world goes quiet and we say, what do we do? But it's as large of a transition when you're launching your kids as when you became a mother. And so it was just my heart behind that in wanting to help women do better in this season of their life, to learn to let go sooner.

6:44 to learn to stop directing and start supporting because that is the greatest shift. And that's what trips most moms up is they don't stop telling their kids what to do. And if you've met any 18, 19, 20, 21, 35, 36, 37, they do not want to be told what to do, nor should they be told what to do by their parents. We've had our season and our time is over. So I just really like to support women. in helping them have healthy relationships with their adult kids and healthy empty nest marriages. And do they adapt to that very well? Oh, yeah. I mean, women are hungry to know how to do things differently because we haven't talked about it enough. And then when they feel this tension in their relationship, they're like, oh, it's me? It's me. Like I'm responsible. It's me. That's the problem. Yeah. And I'm not, it's not about blaming. It's just about helping moms understand we need to shift. We need to adjust.

7:47 We need to let go. And, you know, no mom wants her child living in their basement when the child is 35. You know, we don't want that. And if we don't let go, if we don't. support our kids. If we don't communicate that I believe in you, you have what it takes to be an adult, to build your own life, to problem solve, to be wise in your relationships. Like we can encourage them, but we don't, we can just hold it all so much more loosely. And it's the mom who wants to hold on tight and control everything. Almost always, I think, yes. That really struggles. She will struggle. She will have the hardest time ever.

8:31 So it seems to me that you would want to be letting go because that would say, I've done a good job. They're ready to go. They're ready to be independent. But sometimes that doesn't happen because... Some of it's personality, probably, and some people are higher controlled than others. But you just say, did I do a good enough job that they're ready for that world out there? Right, right. That is one thing I think that moms really struggle with is regret. Oh, if I would have only done this. But here's what I know about the Lord. He takes us where we are at right now, and He says, work with me. Let's see what we can do. We cannot go back. We can always apologize.

9:21 I cannot tell you how many times I've said to my grown kids, gosh, I'm sorry that I handled it like that. I didn't know better, but back then I was doing the best with what I knew at the time. I would do it totally different. Now, even in our own family of having five kids, the way I parented our older children and the younger ones, it's very different. Totally different. Totally different. I was so much more relaxed. I was so much more easygoing. So I really, actually, I was a pretty good learner. When my first daughter got married, I was, well, let's just say I was wanting to make sure that my new son -in -law knew what a gem he'd gotten. And to make sure that he had the right attitudes about what she could do and what she was like and stuff. And after a couple of failed conversations, he said, why do you bring this up? I said, well, because my daughter is a very gifted, talented person.

10:29 And I just want to make sure that you help her grow into all that she's supposed to be and God has meant for her. And he says, oh, okay. Oh, okay. There's this beautiful passage, you know, where the Bible says that we are to leave our parents and cleave to our spouse. And the mom who doesn't allow that to happen is really hurting her child's relationship with their spouse. Yes. Oh, absolutely. And let me jump then to some prodigal issues. a variety of different things that come up. But one of the ones I'm encountering the most now is that adult children who either rejected the faith of their parents or didn't like the way the parents parented them or don't like the way the parents are interfering with them. And they don't just kind of avoid them sometimes. That happens. But they actually won't talk to them anymore. And they won't let them see their grandchildren. And I could start naming ones I know personally where they're in the middle of them. And it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.

11:49 It's not supposed to be like this. So what encouragement, wisdom, ideas do you have for our listeners who are in that? Well, I think the first thing we need to remember is that our grown kids are responsible for their relationship with God. We are not responsible for their relationship. You did your part. You raised your kids to know the Lord. You did all the things that the Lord required to you. But once your children reach adulthood, that no longer falls under your jurisdiction. And I think that's where talk less, listen more, and pray more would be so helpful. Here's what I've discovered about my kids. They just want me to listen, like literally listen. So when I say, hey, how you doing with God? And they tell me something that is absolute 100 % opposite of the way I raised them, I don't freak out. I've learned that this isn't about me. This isn't about what I did. This is about them and how they are wrestling and they're trying on ideas. And we may think, why in the world would I try that idea on? You know, but like we don't get to decide that. And they're thinking through things and processing things. And so when they tell me what they think, I always say, thanks for sharing your heart with me. Because I want my child to know that I will. Always listen

13:22 to them. Listening does not equate agreeing. And I think this is where moms really struggle because they're like, well, I can't listen to it because if I listen to it, then they'll think I agree. And no, that is not the case. And then you also don't need to argue. I think more relationships are destroyed by moms who won't keep their mouth shut and just listen and say thank you. And then I will keep loving you no matter what, no matter what you believe, no matter what you think about God, even when your life goes horribly wrong. And we know that there are some situations where prodigals, you know, addiction and just poor financial choices and all kinds of messes. We know that. But I look at the story of the prodigal son, and I always focus on the father. I just think about him and his, how he, I imagine each day he looks down the lane and he thought, well, I wonder if today's the day. I wonder if today's the day. Like he had this such expectancy in his heart. And I think the enemy wants to convince moms that our kids are too far gone, but they are not too far gone because God is always working.

14:42 He's always doing so much more than we can think. That is hard for us to imagine because we think it looks like it's going horribly wrong and you're devastated. And yet we think about all the people in the Bible who God suddenly, suddenly. And that word suddenly gives me such hope. I'm telling you, I stand on it and I say, I can't wait. I can't wait till my kids suddenly return. But in the meantime. I have great relationships with my kids who don't walk with God. I have great relationships. That's so important. Yeah. That's all I want. I just want them to know that I love them. And how do you convince them that you love them? We spend time together. We talk. We don't avoid topics. We try not to walk on eggshells.

15:36 And sometimes it's difficult, especially in the political realm. That can be very taxing. But I've also learned that I just need to listen. I need to give them space to talk. This is where they're coming from. I don't have to agree with it, but I do have to honor them as a human. They're my children, for heaven's sakes. They're not just any humans. Yeah, they're my children. And honor goes such a far way in the kingdom of God. Yes, it does. So you've mentioned especially moms. I have known a few high control dads. I'm sure. I'm sure. But because my ministry is to moms, I don't talk to moms. I don't talk to dads too much. Okay. Any thoughts for them? I mean.

16:20 For the mom with the high control dad? I mean, I think people control because they're scared. They're scared. It's too scary. So I have to, you know. You come at it so you can have a sense of peace and control, when really control, it's all an illusion. No one has control. God is supposed to be in control. Mom and dad are not supposed to, and especially not the mom and dad of adult children. You laugh. Well, but it's really true. I've seen so many that it's the kids really are like, leave me. If you're going to always disagree or tell me what to do or say I'm making bad choices when I'm happy with my choices, then I don't want to talk to you anymore. Now that is a heartbreaking thing. Yeah, but then that's on the parents.

17:18 If the parents don't want to be a little more gentle and Christ -like in that, we play a responsibility. We have to stop always looking at the prodigal. I think a lot of moms will say, well, if my child did this. And I think the Lord is saying, hey, in his kindness, he's so tender and gentle with us. Isn't he, though? Yes, when he says, hey, mama, how about this? Let's work on this. And he's so gracious and kind to help us adjust our attitude, adjust our tone, adjust our demands, or adjust our just expectations. Hello? I think expectations equal just like trouble. Trouble.

18:04 And it's easy to have them because we had a view of what the future would be. Oh, and we did, didn't we? We did. This child, it looks like they're going to be this. And this one's this. Yes, yes. So here's where we have to understand that we are separate. And this is another thing that moms really struggle with. Because our identity is so tied to our motherhood, we are so attached to our children that sometimes we can't separate and realize that I'm my own person and my adult child is their own person making their own choices. We are not meant to be that, like, sometimes it's codependent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Codependent.

18:52 Yes, that's when our son was at a... home for troubled kids. They talked a lot about codependence, and that's a challenge. So we have to remember that our happiness does not come from the way our children behave. Our happiness comes from our relationship with God. Our identity in Christ as fully loved, cherished, chosen, forgiven, valuable. It has nothing to do with the outcomes of life circumstances, or children's lives. So if you were talking to a mom whose child was in addiction, and that drives them to crime usually, and that drives them often to jail, prison, or a place where they're supposed to be getting help, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. What do you say to her in that hard time?

19:54 Right. Well, my husband and I actually, we did pastoral ministry for 24 years, and now we work for a ministry called Adult and Teen Challenge. And so we work with addicts every day. My husband mentors the men, and then I do family ministry, so I support the wives. So it's not necessarily moms, but again, I would always say it's about working on yourself. It's about paying attention to yourself and saying, God, What is it in me that you want to change? What is it in me that you want to soften? What is it in me that you want to heal? Honestly, that's all we have control of. We want to have control of everything and our children, but we don't. But we get to partner with God in being whole. We get to partner with God in seeing His grand hand in all of it. He is writing our kids' stories, and I am so glad that He's not finished. He's not finished. One of the things that I've noticed a lot is how hard it is for a parent to grab hold of. This isn't about your child. It's about you. God, yes, he's working. He's working on your child, all of your children. But he's also working on you. And this situation. is perhaps a very wonderful gift to you to enable God to do what he wants.

21:24 Yes, yes. Yeah, I think a level of self -awareness is required. And I think the mom who struggles most is the one who doesn't quite understand this component of it and what God wants to do in her. Like, it's beautiful. He brings such healing layer upon layer upon layer. And when we're whole and we're walking in the reality of who Christ says we are, that's when we're able to love. But if we're stuck in this desire to control and impact outcomes and all these things, we just become more miserable. I think the greatest example, what is the definition of codependency is doing something and then hoping the other person will change. You're doing all the work and the addict is still like, Just living their life. Not impacted one way. You're right.

22:21 So what do you say to a family grew up in a church that's fairly rigid? And you've grown in being able to have open hands with your child, but the church hasn't. And you get the... kick back from it. Yeah, well, here's the deal. I remember one Saturday, we were just having a women's breakfast, and the Lord said, I usually prepare something, and the Lord's like, today I want you to tell them about your prodigals. And so it was a small, it was a group of maybe 20 women. It was a small group, just Saturday morning, we're eating donuts and wearing our sweats, and I just said, hey, I just want to, I want you to know where I'm at with some of my kids. And one after one after one after one, they said, me too. And they said, we've never been able to talk about it. That happens a lot. And it just broke my heart. And I'm like, church, these moms carry so much shame.

23:33 Like, they had one assignment for their child to love God, and they feel like a failure. And they're not. But we have to make it safe. We have to make it safe for women to say, yeah, I love a prodigal too. And it's hard, but God is working. And we have to create space where people feel safe. You know, I remember talking to a ministry leader at one time, and I thought, you know, with her perfect little family and all the kids serve Jesus. And I was like, you got nothing for me. You can't relate to me. You can't relate to me. And I was like, I'm never going to be that kind of ministry leader. I'm going to be honest, and I'm going to share my struggles in hopes that someone else will have the courage to also do that. So I think in the church, let's just start having these conversations where it's okay to say, yeah, we actually really don't have it all together either. And we have some prodigals, and God still loves us. And we served God with all of our heart, and yet our kids still chose differently. So it's just about grace. Could we just be gracious? It is about grace. In fact, I have four words that are the words that have changed my life on our long journey.

25:01 And I even had the excuse, well, he wasn't ours, really. We adopted him. He was already a mess when we got him. But anyway, my four words, see if I can remember them. Love. Keep loving them, no matter what. No matter how bad what they do is, I have to love them. Mercy. I just thank God for his mercy all the time. For me, for my family, for anybody I know, it's his mercy. Grace. As we go forward, just keep extending grace. And then there's a different one, and that is to bless them. To look for ways that will speak blessing to them. And it can be little things.

25:44 One time, my son was, he left with great anger because I called him on something that he had done. And so he took off. So I went up to his room. gathered all his dirty clothes because that was one of his jobs was to do his own laundry. And I took them and I put each piece one by one in the washing machine. I bless you, Josh. I bless you, Josh. I bless you, Josh. Now, some people, that wouldn't be a big deal. For him to have his clothes clean actually was a big deal. And so just to go beyond even open hands, the easy holding. To actually look for ways to bless them because they probably don't experience much blessing if they're in the kind of situations we're talking about. Exactly. Another thought or question I have is I do know quite a few whose kids have cut off all contact with them. And so they can't call them. They can't. rescue them.

26:50 They can't even write to them. If they send gifts to the children, they'll come back. What hope is there for them? Again, it's so heartbreaking, and it's so common. And yet, we know that there's not one thing we can do to change that except to work on ourselves. You have to say, Lord, There's got to be something in me that also needs to adjust. For them to have such a strong reaction, there's got to be something in me. And so show me, Lord. And then just gently and kindly allow the Lord to show you, to reveal it. Say less because you know you can't, but you can pray like crazy. Let's never forget the power of prayer.

27:38 Never forget the power of prayer. Never forget it. God is always at working. He sees you. He knows you. He sees them. He knows them. And in the right time, he will bring healing. But often, it starts with us first. Because we are the leader in the relationship. Because you were the mom, you know, back when they were kids. You did have this hierarchy where you were higher. And so, as our children become adults, that hierarchy flattens. And yet, you will always be the parent in their eye. And so, you take the high road. You do the thing. You do the work. And then trust God's timing. Well, Pamela, what other helpful thoughts for these people are hurting? Yeah.

28:25 And some of the hurt they bring on themselves. Yeah. And some of it, they're even trying to do it right, and their kids are not making what they like as the choices. I want to leave you with this thought about listening for understanding. You know, we can listen. And here's what's happened. As we're listening, we're like, we're thinking, what am I going to say next? What am I going to say next? What am I going to say next? You know, we do it with our spouses. We can do it with anyone. But then you're not actually listening. So start doing this technique called mirroring, where you just simply respond back with what your child says. So if your child says something.

29:06 Then you just repeat it back. You say, so what I hear you saying is, and then you repeat it back. And then you ask them, is that correct? And they'll say, yeah, mom, that's correct. And if it's not correct, they'll be like, no, mom, you didn't hear me at all. And then, so it's just about learning healthy ways of communication. And you're listening to understand your child's heart. You're not listening to correct. You're not listening to have a wonderful rebuttal. This is not the debate team. You're listening to understand your adult child. I think that's what our kids want. Our grown children want us, they want us to empathize. They want us to join them in their pain and say, I see that that's really hard for you. I'm sorry that it's so hard for you right now. And then listen to understand. Use this phrase. So what I hear you saying is. It's a great technique. Okay, so did y 'all write that down? What I hear you saying is... Yes, that's it. That's a really good thing. Oh, Pamela, this was really wonderful. Such practical, real, revolutionary ideas. And if we can get to the point where we ourselves can open our hands, open our minds.

30:28 And not have to control things. But let them. They're grown now. Now, if we're talking about teenagers, that's a little bit different. But you can learn a lot about the same things. Because they're trying to figure out who they are. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think our listeners will love that. And we're going to put in the show notes a couple of places they can go that you're going to give me just to get more information. And we would love to do that. Yes, I too have a podcast. I have the Midlife Mama podcast. And episodes come out every Thursday where we're just talking about all things midlife moms and empty nesting. That's great. I'm glad. And I didn't know until I was reading up about you more that you actually had a podcast as well.

31:18 But I could tell by the things you were saying that you had the right message for these parents that are struggling. Grandparents as well, they can often be better at listening because they have not been in control. they can play a role. And you've heard some really good things from Pamela. So thank you, ma 'am. Thank you. I'm just so grateful. God bless you.