May 22, 2024
Exposing the Prosperity Gospel Controversy...
Explore the nuanced topic of prosperity theology from a balanced biblical perspective. Dr. Mark Rutland shares insights on earning, saving, and giving wealth with joy rather than trying to manipulate God or others. Stories are discussed that demonstrate generosity towards those in need, including a Baptist church's surprising gift to a Pentecostal congregation. The speakers warn against both exploiting people for money as well as an attitude of poverty. They also advise responding to criticism of Christian leaders with prayer instead of attacks. Overall, the discussion provides thoughtful guidance for prospering financially while maintaining spiritual integrity.
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,400
What does the Bible say about prosperity?
2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,080
Hello, everyone, I'm Stephen Strang.
3
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,680
And today on the Strang Report, we're
4
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,840
going to deal with that in a balanced kind of way
5
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,280
by a man I greatly respect.
6
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,760
His name is Dr. Mark Rutland.
7
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,160
He is the former pastor of Calvary Church in Orlando.
8
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,120
And then he was president at Southeastern University
9
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,060
in Lakeland when it really took off,
10
00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:26,560
and later president of Oral Roberts University.
11
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,560
He's been a friend for many years.
12
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,320
And when Benny Hinn was attacked on social media for many things,
13
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,320
one of which being the prosperity gospel,
14
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,440
and then when he backed down and apologized
15
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,000
and was still attacked, I thought
16
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,680
it would be useful to be able to discuss it
17
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,800
with someone who's very balanced, very respected,
18
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,840
and in his own right, a theologian.
19
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,920
You don't want to miss my conversation
20
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,320
with Dr. Mark Rutland.
21
00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:06,440
Dr. Rutland, I want to talk to you today
22
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,520
about what a lot of people call the prosperity gospel.
23
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,520
It's the whole theology behind giving and receiving
24
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,480
and so forth.
25
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,600
And Benny Hinn and others have been attacked for teaching this.
26
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,120
And over time, at Charisma Magazine,
27
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,800
we've covered some of the extremes.
28
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,560
But I want to talk to you today about a biblical approach.
29
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,160
Could you explain what you believe
30
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,200
about God blessing his people?
31
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,780
Now, Steve, the problem theologically
32
00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:42,520
is almost always the same, no matter what subject you
33
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,640
approach and its balance.
34
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,920
So take, for example, the issue of sin in 1 John.
35
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,840
I write these things unto you that you sin not.
36
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,000
But if you sin, you have an advocate with the Father.
37
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,560
However, if you sin, then the truth is not in you.
38
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,880
However, if you say that you've never sinned,
39
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:03,920
the truth is not in you.
40
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,800
So 1 John kind of gives us a model
41
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280
of the complexity of theological balance.
42
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,760
Well, the same thing is true with prosperity and blessing.
43
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,160
God is a God of blessing.
44
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,960
He says, in blessing, I will bless thee.
45
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,240
He enjoys blessing.
46
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,320
He wants to bless.
47
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,400
The error comes where people say, if you're not blessed,
48
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,680
you're doing something wrong.
49
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,400
If you're not blessed, you're not a Christian.
50
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,040
And they turn blessed into rich.
51
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,200
And it can become a gospel of greed
52
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,960
rather than the celebration of the goodness of God,
53
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,040
a God who's about doing exceedingly abundantly above all
54
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,920
we could ever think of or ask.
55
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:47,840
God's not a penurious God.
56
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,200
He's a good, blessed, wonderful God.
57
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,360
But we have to keep balance with it.
58
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,240
You know, I think you put it in perspective
59
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,440
when you said greed.
60
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,480
I think that's where it becomes a problem.
61
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:00,320
Yes.
62
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,640
There are people, you know, we're not gonna call names,
63
00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:05,880
who use it because of greed.
64
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,000
You talk about sin.
65
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,680
It's one of the main sins.
66
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,680
And I remember something that Oral Roberts told me.
67
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,600
And of course, you succeeded Oral Roberts
68
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,000
as the president of Oral Roberts University.
69
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,560
But he grew up desperately poor during the Depression.
70
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,840
And he said, unless you come from that kind of background,
71
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,520
you can't appreciate the hope
72
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,400
that God might want to prosper you.
73
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,760
And there are people who have a poverty mentality.
74
00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,560
And even some of the people who reject the theology,
75
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,280
in my opinion, and I wanna hear what you have to say,
76
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,440
is that they reject a whole lot of what Pentecostals
77
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,000
and Charismatics believe.
78
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,160
This among them, yet the critics that I know personally,
79
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,640
they're very glad to live at whatever prosperous lifestyle
80
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,480
they can afford, but they will attack prosperity.
81
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,520
So help us understand this.
82
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,440
Yeah, I read a wonderful piece by John Wesley,
83
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,040
wrote in the Armenian Magazine in the 1700s.
84
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,920
And he dealt with the whole issue of balance on it.
85
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,200
He said, look, when you line your life,
86
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,600
I'm paraphrasing.
87
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,840
When you line, when one lines one's life up
88
00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:28,160
with the biblical principles of frugality
89
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,480
and modesty and hard work, God blesses.
90
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,480
And that life is blessed.
91
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,880
So in the blessing, he said, the problem is,
92
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,520
sometimes you can lose your faithfulness to God
93
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,680
in the midst of the blessing.
94
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,760
So he said, how do we resolve this?
95
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,440
And he had a three point thing.
96
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,360
He said, earn all you can.
97
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,680
There's nothing wrong with that.
98
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,320
He said, earn all you can.
99
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,240
He said, money is useful.
100
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,600
It's useful in all kinds of ways.
101
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,040
Earn all you can.
102
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,520
Then he said, save all you can.
103
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,440
That's a biblical principle to be, to save money,
104
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,600
to save up like the, go to consider the ant, okay?
105
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,680
And then he said, the resolution to that is,
106
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:15,880
give all you can.
107
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,760
Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can.
108
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,400
So the answer to the prosperity dilemma, it seems to me,
109
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,400
and it seemed to Wesley, is that the result of prosperity,
110
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,800
the outcome of it should not be to accrue, but to give.
111
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,360
So any pastor who's not praying for his people to be blessed,
112
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,840
you should pray for your people to be blessed.
113
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,960
God bless them, prosper them.
114
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,760
May they have raises, may they have meaningful jobs,
115
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,800
may they have meaningful employment,
116
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,240
may they have more customers than they had last year,
117
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,720
may they have creative ideas in business,
118
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,720
may their entrepreneurial impulses be blessed.
119
00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,760
I pray for them to be blessed.
120
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,680
I also pray for them to be more generous,
121
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,080
not just the my ministry,
122
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,360
that's where greed can enter in.
123
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,800
If you wanna be blessed, you have to bless my ministry.
124
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,840
But to say, I pray that you will be generous,
125
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:14,920
that you will give more,
126
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,640
because you earn more, you can give more.
127
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,800
That seems to me to be the balance that resolves the thing.
128
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,440
You know, Steve, the problem is not just on those
129
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,120
who exploit others for prosperity,
130
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,360
it's donors who exploit ministries for prosperity.
131
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,360
They turn ministries into the kind of biblical slot machine.
132
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,600
I'll give this amount of money,
133
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,120
and I hope that three cherries roll up,
134
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,360
and I get my return.
135
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,160
So sometimes they spread their giving out over ministries
136
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,640
to see which one will give them the return.
137
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:50,920
That's also greed.
138
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,440
So it can be greed from the ministries,
139
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,720
it can be greed from the givers.
140
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,680
You know, that's very keen insight,
141
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,360
and you're one of the few Christian leaders
142
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,800
I've ever heard say that.
143
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,520
And I remember years ago,
144
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,920
there was a fellow, we don't need to name names,
145
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,320
he's really not in ministry anymore,
146
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,600
but he had a thing about a vow.
147
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,720
He had to give a thousand dollar vow,
148
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,320
and people would give thousands of dollars to his ministry,
149
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,720
and I believed it was a gambling impulse.
150
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,760
It's like when people go down to the convenience store
151
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,960
and buy a lottery ticket,
152
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,600
they know they probably won't hit the jackpot,
153
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,800
but they know that some people hit the jackpot.
154
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,320
And I think that when people give,
155
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,040
they know that there are people who are blessed.
156
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,240
They, I'm gonna guess a lot of them
157
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,960
probably sincerely believe the Bible
158
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,480
and want to believe all the scriptures
159
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:46,840
that would indicate that,
160
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,320
and they know it might happen,
161
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:49,480
but they're taking their chance,
162
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,440
they're rolling the slot machine like you said,
163
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,480
and we have to teach people biblically.
164
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,320
Now let's talk about some of the principles
165
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,720
that are mentioned often during
166
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,840
offering time.
167
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,840
You know, the measure that you give, you'll receive.
168
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,560
Well, I personally believe that,
169
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,640
that if you're generous in a large measure,
170
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,960
you'll receive generously,
171
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,000
but it also can be used to manipulate people
172
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,160
to give a hundred dollars instead of $25
173
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,840
or whatever the amount might be.
174
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,280
Help us to understand,
175
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,520
not only that scripture,
176
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,760
other scriptures like blessing Israel
177
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,120
and people being blessed,
178
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,160
there's scriptures all through the Bible
179
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,760
that indicate that God does indeed
180
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,120
want to bless his people.
181
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,320
Yeah, God is a good God,
182
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,800
a loving God and a God who blesses.
183
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,000
We enjoy blessing our children.
184
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,680
In fact, I've probably blessed mine
185
00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,280
more than I should have,
186
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,480
and we enjoy blessing our grandchildren.
187
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,440
I've kept Cracker Barrel's store in business
188
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,320
buying stuff for my grandkids.
189
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,520
I enjoy that.
190
00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,800
That's not something that grieves me
191
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,560
as a father and a grandfather,
192
00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:06,720
but I don't want my children and grandchildren
193
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,000
to manipulate me.
194
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,440
And so I want my children to be generous, to give.
195
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,640
I don't wait to see what they give me on Father's Day
196
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,960
to decide whether or not I help them financially.
197
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,560
So I think we take some of our most unworthy attributes
198
00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,160
and impose those on God,
199
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,120
that God says, okay, $100,
200
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,760
or I withhold the blessing.
201
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,440
That's not God, and it's not characteristic of God.
202
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,080
Having said that, as I said earlier,
203
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,720
balance is the issue.
204
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,200
Unto whom much is given, much is expected.
205
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,200
That we give according so that the widow's might
206
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,040
is that she made a generous gift.
207
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,760
She was generous, not by amount,
208
00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,280
but by her heart and by the liberty of her giving.
209
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,960
So somebody might give $1,000
210
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,520
in response to a manipulative offering request,
211
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880
and actually their motive eliminates the blessing.
212
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,200
Whereas someone might give generously out of their need
213
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,360
and God's response to their heart.
214
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,120
So to me, the goodness of God is what's in question here.
215
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,400
Not that we manipulate God, we dare and we won't,
216
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400
he will not be manipulated,
217
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,080
but every attempt to do so is that
218
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,680
which eliminates the fun of it.
219
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,600
Look, what I think we ought to concentrate on
220
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600
is the joy of giving, the delight.
221
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,480
You know, my favorite story of giving in the Bible
222
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,520
is none of the truisms that you quoted earlier.
223
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,880
It's the story of building the tabernacle in the wilderness
224
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,520
where Moses makes the request,
225
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,200
bring me things to build the tabernacle,
226
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,480
and the elders come to him after a while and say,
227
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,480
tell them to stop, tell the people to stop.
228
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,880
We can't take anymore.
229
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,480
That's what I want.
230
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,200
I want that spirit of generosity
231
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,680
that's neither doling out pennies to God,
232
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:20,480
neither is it trying to manipulate God by giving,
233
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,440
but is the open-hearted, open-handed, joyful giving
234
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,800
that I just delight in it.
235
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,200
Wouldn't you just once,
236
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,360
just once like to see a pastor step on the platform
237
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,200
and say to the people, okay, no more today, no more today.
238
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:40,400
That's what Moses did.
239
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,680
He said, stop giving, stop.
240
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,160
We can't build it, we can't build anymore with this.
241
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,880
And that's generosity combined with accountability.
242
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,920
The task was done.
243
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,680
And it's beautiful to me.
244
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,760
That's my favorite story.
245
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,680
By the way, I preached that story once
246
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:00,240
and the place where I preached it
247
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,480
told me not to ever preach it again.
248
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,920
They said, don't ever preach it again.
249
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,000
I said, don't preach on generosity.
250
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,320
They said, not like that.
251
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,280
Well, that's funny.
252
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,840
You know, I wanna talk about
253
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,800
how people can put into perspective
254
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,600
some of the attacks that have come.
255
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,160
And recently we've been talking about the ones
256
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,280
against Benny Hinn, the things that he's been attacked for.
257
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,040
There are a lot of different ministries
258
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,160
that could be attacked for some of the same things.
259
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,600
I believe that he has tried to walk some of this back.
260
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,160
He said he's repented, he's sorry.
261
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,720
And I personally believe him,
262
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,880
but that's not really my point.
263
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,960
There are those who've attacked.
264
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,840
I mean, John Wesley himself, who you mentioned earlier,
265
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,520
was attacked terribly.
266
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,240
And this was long before the days of the internet.
267
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,400
I heard a story about my own grandfather,
268
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,680
who was a Pentecostal preacher during the depression.
269
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,680
And he had a cessationist pastor in town
270
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,320
attack him on the radio,
271
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,320
telling him that he should drink poison
272
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,120
to see if it killed him or not.
273
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,440
And, you know, radio was sort of the internet of the day.
274
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,000
So these attacks have been going on,
275
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,080
but with social media, they can get followers
276
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,880
and then people can comment on it and on and on and on.
277
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,040
So how should people do this?
278
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,520
You know, Benny has, like I said, walked it back.
279
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,960
I'm not here to judge his heart,
280
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,360
but there's all kinds of people
281
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,920
that didn't believe him before
282
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,000
and they don't believe him now.
283
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,920
How should we, not only with Benny,
284
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,960
but when there's attacks against Christian leaders,
285
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,080
how should we in the body of Christ respond?
286
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,360
Yeah, I guess there are those people
287
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,360
who feel that they're called to some kind of prophetic thing
288
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,000
to denounce people.
289
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000
I just, I don't feel the need to defend people
290
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,720
and I certainly don't feel the need to attack people.
291
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,880
I've been attacked for stupid stuff.
292
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,360
I pastored a great church in Orlando years ago,
293
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,160
you remember, and one friend of mine challenged me
294
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,360
to have my people say the name of Jesus
295
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,560
a hundred times in a worship service.
296
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,080
I kind of feel like I need things.
297
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,360
So I had them 10 at a time,
298
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,160
you know, 10 throughout the course of the service
299
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,720
to say the name of Jesus a hundred times.
300
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,280
And this guy with a nationwide radio ministry
301
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,720
denounced me by name that I was trying to manipulate
302
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,560
my people into some kind of a seance type thing
303
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,960
by repeating Jesus over and over and over again.
304
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,920
I could make them, you know, check out their brains
305
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,720
and no longer would judge what I had to say.
306
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,400
I just wanted to say Jesus.
307
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,080
So it kind of taught me a lesson about attacking people.
308
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,880
I just, I've holstered my guns, Steve.
309
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,360
I don't do that.
310
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,680
You know, you make me think,
311
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,960
when you mentioned the church in Orlando,
312
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,080
it made me think of a wonderful story
313
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,840
that I hope you'll repeat of where a Baptist church
314
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,960
gave a very generous gift that was a huge surprise.
315
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,840
I think that's a good way to end this podcast.
316
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400
Yeah, it was actually the reverse.
317
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,240
We were trying to turn the ship at Calvary,
318
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,760
you know, it was bankrupt when I went there.
319
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,240
And a few weeks after that,
320
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,280
I felt motivated to send Dr. Jim Henry
321
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,400
and First Baptist Church an offering.
322
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,280
And I went to, we were so broke.
323
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,880
I went to the elders and asked them to talk me out of it.
324
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,520
And instead they said, let's do it, let's do it.
325
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,800
And so they said, and let's do it right.
326
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,200
They said, take the offering for First Baptist
327
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,480
before you take yours.
328
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680
Let's not give them leftovers.
329
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,000
And I took the offering and Monday morning,
330
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,640
they came in and said the offering for First Baptist
331
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,120
was $19,000.
332
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,480
And they said, what do you want me to do?
333
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,760
I said, write a check and send the security guard
334
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,720
over to First Baptist with it and do it quickly.
335
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,040
I'm feeling weak.
336
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,120
A little while later, I got a wonderful call
337
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,120
from Jim Henry, he was weeping.
338
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,760
And he said, look, I've been struggling
339
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,320
with a certain decision.
340
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,080
I think the decision was to run for the president
341
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,840
of Southern Baptist Convention.
342
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,640
But he didn't say that, he said, I'm struggling.
343
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360
He said, I just never thought the confirmation
344
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,360
would come from a Pentecostal church.
345
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,280
I said, no, me neither, Jim.
346
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,280
But I thought that what I said in my mind
347
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,400
was deep within, let's be honest, I'm being honest.
348
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,000
I thought they would take an offering and send it back.
349
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,480
He never did.
350
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,440
But it was a huge turning point in the finances at Calvary.
351
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800
From that moment on, we never looked back.
352
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,720
We paid off a million dollars a year
353
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,680
on the dead-iron heritage.
354
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,400
And that was the turning point.
355
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,080
I'm not saying, here again, don't turn stories into doctrine.
356
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,000
I'm not saying that every Pentecostal church in America,
357
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,200
if you'll give $19,000 to the local Baptists,
358
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,960
they gotta pay your building off.
359
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,920
I'm just saying it was a moment of release and joy.
360
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,440
The people laughed.
361
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,320
They gave the offering with joy.
362
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,280
And I said, I want you to know where we're gonna send it.
363
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,040
We're gonna send it to First Baptist,
364
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,240
the most prosperous church in Orlando.
365
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:35,680
And it still is.
366
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:36,600
It still is.
367
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,960
It didn't make any sense to me.
368
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,840
But somehow it opened the valve.
369
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,840
And it just was a tremendous turning point
370
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,840
in the history at Calvary Church.
371
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,520
Well, that's a beautiful story.
372
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,520
And so as we wrap up this podcast,
373
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,960
I wanna thank you for taking time
374
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,920
on fairly short notice to be on with me.
375
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,600
And I wanna give you the last word.
376
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,960
Well, the last word is Jesus is Lord.
377
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,440
God is a good God.
378
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,280
He loves us.
379
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,000
He cares for us.
380
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,960
I believe in the spirit of generosity,
381
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,320
joyful giving because God is good.
382
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,040
The ace in the hole, if I can use that secular thing,
383
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,840
is yes, God will not be outgiven.
384
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,240
I believe that.
385
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,720
But I don't believe in giving to manipulate God.
386
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,640
I believe in giving because of who God is.
387
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,560
I hope you learned something from Dr. Mark Rutland
388
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,080
about prosperity.
389
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,520
There's so much more than we could say about the subject.
390
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,360
In fact, I dealt with it in my latest book
391
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,160
called Spirit-Led Living in an Upside-Down World
392
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,640
where I talk about the work of the Holy Spirit
393
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,480
and have a whole chapter on how you can achieve
394
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,360
your potential in God.
395
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,760
You know, I believe, as Dr. Rutland said,
396
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480
that God does want to prosper us.
397
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,640
He wants to bless us.
398
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,880
He enjoys blessing us.
399
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,040
The problem comes when we're greedy
400
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,480
or where we try to manipulate God.
401
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,000
I hope that you'll get my book.
402
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,760
It's available on Amazon.com.
403
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,000
It's also available on SteveStrangBooks.com.
404
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,840
In fact, you can get a bundle of several of my books.
405
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,160
If you enjoy this podcast
406
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,080
and if you look to me for leadership,
407
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,000
I hope that you'll get a copy
408
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,160
of Spirit-Led Living in an Upside-Down World.
409
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,640
Thank you for tuning in.
410
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,400
Please share this.
411
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,520
My podcasts have really taken off
412
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,240
because people like you share them.
413
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,440
And if you haven't subscribed, be sure to subscribe
414
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,120
so you're notified every Tuesday and Thursday at 4 p.m.
415
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,320
daylight saving time
416
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,600
for another episode of The Strang Report.
417
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:54,600
Until next time, God bless you.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,400
What does the Bible say about prosperity?
2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,080
Hello, everyone, I'm Stephen Strang.
3
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,680
And today on the Strang Report, we're
4
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,840
going to deal with that in a balanced kind of way
5
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,280
by a man I greatly respect.
6
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,760
His name is Dr. Mark Rutland.
7
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,160
He is the former pastor of Calvary Church in Orlando.
8
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,120
And then he was president at Southeastern University
9
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,060
in Lakeland when it really took off,
10
00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:26,560
and later president of Oral Roberts University.
11
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,560
He's been a friend for many years.
12
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,320
And when Benny Hinn was attacked on social media for many things,
13
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,320
one of which being the prosperity gospel,
14
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,440
and then when he backed down and apologized
15
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,000
and was still attacked, I thought
16
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,680
it would be useful to be able to discuss it
17
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,800
with someone who's very balanced, very respected,
18
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,840
and in his own right, a theologian.
19
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,920
You don't want to miss my conversation
20
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,320
with Dr. Mark Rutland.
21
00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:06,440
Dr. Rutland, I want to talk to you today
22
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,520
about what a lot of people call the prosperity gospel.
23
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,520
It's the whole theology behind giving and receiving
24
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,480
and so forth.
25
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,600
And Benny Hinn and others have been attacked for teaching this.
26
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,120
And over time, at Charisma Magazine,
27
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,800
we've covered some of the extremes.
28
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,560
But I want to talk to you today about a biblical approach.
29
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,160
Could you explain what you believe
30
00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,200
about God blessing his people?
31
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,780
Now, Steve, the problem theologically
32
00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:42,520
is almost always the same, no matter what subject you
33
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,640
approach and its balance.
34
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,920
So take, for example, the issue of sin in 1 John.
35
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,840
I write these things unto you that you sin not.
36
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,000
But if you sin, you have an advocate with the Father.
37
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,560
However, if you sin, then the truth is not in you.
38
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,880
However, if you say that you've never sinned,
39
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:03,920
the truth is not in you.
40
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,800
So 1 John kind of gives us a model
41
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280
of the complexity of theological balance.
42
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,760
Well, the same thing is true with prosperity and blessing.
43
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,160
God is a God of blessing.
44
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,960
He says, in blessing, I will bless thee.
45
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,240
He enjoys blessing.
46
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,320
He wants to bless.
47
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,400
The error comes where people say, if you're not blessed,
48
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,680
you're doing something wrong.
49
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,400
If you're not blessed, you're not a Christian.
50
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,040
And they turn blessed into rich.
51
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,200
And it can become a gospel of greed
52
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,960
rather than the celebration of the goodness of God,
53
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,040
a God who's about doing exceedingly abundantly above all
54
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,920
we could ever think of or ask.
55
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:47,840
God's not a penurious God.
56
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,200
He's a good, blessed, wonderful God.
57
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,360
But we have to keep balance with it.
58
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,240
You know, I think you put it in perspective
59
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,440
when you said greed.
60
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,480
I think that's where it becomes a problem.
61
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:00,320
Yes.
62
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,640
There are people, you know, we're not gonna call names,
63
00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:05,880
who use it because of greed.
64
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,000
You talk about sin.
65
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,680
It's one of the main sins.
66
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,680
And I remember something that Oral Roberts told me.
67
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,600
And of course, you succeeded Oral Roberts
68
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,000
as the president of Oral Roberts University.
69
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,560
But he grew up desperately poor during the Depression.
70
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,840
And he said, unless you come from that kind of background,
71
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,520
you can't appreciate the hope
72
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,400
that God might want to prosper you.
73
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,760
And there are people who have a poverty mentality.
74
00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,560
And even some of the people who reject the theology,
75
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,280
in my opinion, and I wanna hear what you have to say,
76
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,440
is that they reject a whole lot of what Pentecostals
77
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,000
and Charismatics believe.
78
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,160
This among them, yet the critics that I know personally,
79
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,640
they're very glad to live at whatever prosperous lifestyle
80
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,480
they can afford, but they will attack prosperity.
81
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,520
So help us understand this.
82
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,440
Yeah, I read a wonderful piece by John Wesley,
83
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,040
wrote in the Armenian Magazine in the 1700s.
84
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,920
And he dealt with the whole issue of balance on it.
85
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,200
He said, look, when you line your life,
86
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,600
I'm paraphrasing.
87
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,840
When you line, when one lines one's life up
88
00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:28,160
with the biblical principles of frugality
89
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,480
and modesty and hard work, God blesses.
90
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,480
And that life is blessed.
91
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,880
So in the blessing, he said, the problem is,
92
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,520
sometimes you can lose your faithfulness to God
93
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,680
in the midst of the blessing.
94
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,760
So he said, how do we resolve this?
95
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,440
And he had a three point thing.
96
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,360
He said, earn all you can.
97
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,680
There's nothing wrong with that.
98
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,320
He said, earn all you can.
99
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,240
He said, money is useful.
100
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,600
It's useful in all kinds of ways.
101
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,040
Earn all you can.
102
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,520
Then he said, save all you can.
103
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,440
That's a biblical principle to be, to save money,
104
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,600
to save up like the, go to consider the ant, okay?
105
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,680
And then he said, the resolution to that is,
106
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:15,880
give all you can.
107
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,760
Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can.
108
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,400
So the answer to the prosperity dilemma, it seems to me,
109
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,400
and it seemed to Wesley, is that the result of prosperity,
110
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,800
the outcome of it should not be to accrue, but to give.
111
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,360
So any pastor who's not praying for his people to be blessed,
112
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,840
you should pray for your people to be blessed.
113
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,960
God bless them, prosper them.
114
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,760
May they have raises, may they have meaningful jobs,
115
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,800
may they have meaningful employment,
116
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,240
may they have more customers than they had last year,
117
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,720
may they have creative ideas in business,
118
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,720
may their entrepreneurial impulses be blessed.
119
00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,760
I pray for them to be blessed.
120
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,680
I also pray for them to be more generous,
121
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,080
not just the my ministry,
122
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,360
that's where greed can enter in.
123
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,800
If you wanna be blessed, you have to bless my ministry.
124
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,840
But to say, I pray that you will be generous,
125
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:14,920
that you will give more,
126
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,640
because you earn more, you can give more.
127
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,800
That seems to me to be the balance that resolves the thing.
128
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,440
You know, Steve, the problem is not just on those
129
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,120
who exploit others for prosperity,
130
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,360
it's donors who exploit ministries for prosperity.
131
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,360
They turn ministries into the kind of biblical slot machine.
132
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,600
I'll give this amount of money,
133
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,120
and I hope that three cherries roll up,
134
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,360
and I get my return.
135
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,160
So sometimes they spread their giving out over ministries
136
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,640
to see which one will give them the return.
137
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:50,920
That's also greed.
138
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,440
So it can be greed from the ministries,
139
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,720
it can be greed from the givers.
140
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,680
You know, that's very keen insight,
141
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,360
and you're one of the few Christian leaders
142
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,800
I've ever heard say that.
143
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,520
And I remember years ago,
144
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,920
there was a fellow, we don't need to name names,
145
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,320
he's really not in ministry anymore,
146
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,600
but he had a thing about a vow.
147
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,720
He had to give a thousand dollar vow,
148
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,320
and people would give thousands of dollars to his ministry,
149
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,720
and I believed it was a gambling impulse.
150
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,760
It's like when people go down to the convenience store
151
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,960
and buy a lottery ticket,
152
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,600
they know they probably won't hit the jackpot,
153
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,800
but they know that some people hit the jackpot.
154
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,320
And I think that when people give,
155
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,040
they know that there are people who are blessed.
156
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,240
They, I'm gonna guess a lot of them
157
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,960
probably sincerely believe the Bible
158
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,480
and want to believe all the scriptures
159
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:46,840
that would indicate that,
160
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,320
and they know it might happen,
161
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:49,480
but they're taking their chance,
162
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,440
they're rolling the slot machine like you said,
163
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,480
and we have to teach people biblically.
164
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,320
Now let's talk about some of the principles
165
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,720
that are mentioned often during
166
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,840
offering time.
167
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,840
You know, the measure that you give, you'll receive.
168
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,560
Well, I personally believe that,
169
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,640
that if you're generous in a large measure,
170
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,960
you'll receive generously,
171
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,000
but it also can be used to manipulate people
172
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,160
to give a hundred dollars instead of $25
173
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,840
or whatever the amount might be.
174
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,280
Help us to understand,
175
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,520
not only that scripture,
176
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,760
other scriptures like blessing Israel
177
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,120
and people being blessed,
178
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,160
there's scriptures all through the Bible
179
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,760
that indicate that God does indeed
180
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,120
want to bless his people.
181
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,320
Yeah, God is a good God,
182
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,800
a loving God and a God who blesses.
183
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,000
We enjoy blessing our children.
184
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,680
In fact, I've probably blessed mine
185
00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,280
more than I should have,
186
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,480
and we enjoy blessing our grandchildren.
187
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,440
I've kept Cracker Barrel's store in business
188
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,320
buying stuff for my grandkids.
189
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,520
I enjoy that.
190
00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,800
That's not something that grieves me
191
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,560
as a father and a grandfather,
192
00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:06,720
but I don't want my children and grandchildren
193
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,000
to manipulate me.
194
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,440
And so I want my children to be generous, to give.
195
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,640
I don't wait to see what they give me on Father's Day
196
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,960
to decide whether or not I help them financially.
197
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,560
So I think we take some of our most unworthy attributes
198
00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,160
and impose those on God,
199
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,120
that God says, okay, $100,
200
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,760
or I withhold the blessing.
201
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,440
That's not God, and it's not characteristic of God.
202
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,080
Having said that, as I said earlier,
203
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,720
balance is the issue.
204
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,200
Unto whom much is given, much is expected.
205
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,200
That we give according so that the widow's might
206
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,040
is that she made a generous gift.
207
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,760
She was generous, not by amount,
208
00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,280
but by her heart and by the liberty of her giving.
209
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,960
So somebody might give $1,000
210
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,520
in response to a manipulative offering request,
211
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880
and actually their motive eliminates the blessing.
212
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,200
Whereas someone might give generously out of their need
213
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,360
and God's response to their heart.
214
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,120
So to me, the goodness of God is what's in question here.
215
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,400
Not that we manipulate God, we dare and we won't,
216
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400
he will not be manipulated,
217
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,080
but every attempt to do so is that
218
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,680
which eliminates the fun of it.
219
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,600
Look, what I think we ought to concentrate on
220
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600
is the joy of giving, the delight.
221
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,480
You know, my favorite story of giving in the Bible
222
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,520
is none of the truisms that you quoted earlier.
223
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,880
It's the story of building the tabernacle in the wilderness
224
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,520
where Moses makes the request,
225
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,200
bring me things to build the tabernacle,
226
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,480
and the elders come to him after a while and say,
227
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,480
tell them to stop, tell the people to stop.
228
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,880
We can't take anymore.
229
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,480
That's what I want.
230
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,200
I want that spirit of generosity
231
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,680
that's neither doling out pennies to God,
232
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:20,480
neither is it trying to manipulate God by giving,
233
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,440
but is the open-hearted, open-handed, joyful giving
234
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,800
that I just delight in it.
235
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,200
Wouldn't you just once,
236
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,360
just once like to see a pastor step on the platform
237
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,200
and say to the people, okay, no more today, no more today.
238
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:40,400
That's what Moses did.
239
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,680
He said, stop giving, stop.
240
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,160
We can't build it, we can't build anymore with this.
241
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,880
And that's generosity combined with accountability.
242
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,920
The task was done.
243
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,680
And it's beautiful to me.
244
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,760
That's my favorite story.
245
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,680
By the way, I preached that story once
246
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:00,240
and the place where I preached it
247
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,480
told me not to ever preach it again.
248
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,920
They said, don't ever preach it again.
249
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,000
I said, don't preach on generosity.
250
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,320
They said, not like that.
251
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,280
Well, that's funny.
252
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,840
You know, I wanna talk about
253
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,800
how people can put into perspective
254
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,600
some of the attacks that have come.
255
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,160
And recently we've been talking about the ones
256
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,280
against Benny Hinn, the things that he's been attacked for.
257
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,040
There are a lot of different ministries
258
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,160
that could be attacked for some of the same things.
259
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,600
I believe that he has tried to walk some of this back.
260
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,160
He said he's repented, he's sorry.
261
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,720
And I personally believe him,
262
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,880
but that's not really my point.
263
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,960
There are those who've attacked.
264
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,840
I mean, John Wesley himself, who you mentioned earlier,
265
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,520
was attacked terribly.
266
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,240
And this was long before the days of the internet.
267
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,400
I heard a story about my own grandfather,
268
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,680
who was a Pentecostal preacher during the depression.
269
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,680
And he had a cessationist pastor in town
270
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,320
attack him on the radio,
271
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,320
telling him that he should drink poison
272
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,120
to see if it killed him or not.
273
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,440
And, you know, radio was sort of the internet of the day.
274
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,000
So these attacks have been going on,
275
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,080
but with social media, they can get followers
276
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,880
and then people can comment on it and on and on and on.
277
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,040
So how should people do this?
278
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,520
You know, Benny has, like I said, walked it back.
279
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,960
I'm not here to judge his heart,
280
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,360
but there's all kinds of people
281
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,920
that didn't believe him before
282
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,000
and they don't believe him now.
283
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,920
How should we, not only with Benny,
284
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,960
but when there's attacks against Christian leaders,
285
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,080
how should we in the body of Christ respond?
286
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,360
Yeah, I guess there are those people
287
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,360
who feel that they're called to some kind of prophetic thing
288
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,000
to denounce people.
289
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000
I just, I don't feel the need to defend people
290
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,720
and I certainly don't feel the need to attack people.
291
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,880
I've been attacked for stupid stuff.
292
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,360
I pastored a great church in Orlando years ago,
293
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,160
you remember, and one friend of mine challenged me
294
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,360
to have my people say the name of Jesus
295
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,560
a hundred times in a worship service.
296
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,080
I kind of feel like I need things.
297
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,360
So I had them 10 at a time,
298
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,160
you know, 10 throughout the course of the service
299
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,720
to say the name of Jesus a hundred times.
300
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,280
And this guy with a nationwide radio ministry
301
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,720
denounced me by name that I was trying to manipulate
302
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,560
my people into some kind of a seance type thing
303
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,960
by repeating Jesus over and over and over again.
304
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,920
I could make them, you know, check out their brains
305
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,720
and no longer would judge what I had to say.
306
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,400
I just wanted to say Jesus.
307
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,080
So it kind of taught me a lesson about attacking people.
308
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,880
I just, I've holstered my guns, Steve.
309
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,360
I don't do that.
310
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,680
You know, you make me think,
311
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,960
when you mentioned the church in Orlando,
312
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,080
it made me think of a wonderful story
313
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,840
that I hope you'll repeat of where a Baptist church
314
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,960
gave a very generous gift that was a huge surprise.
315
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,840
I think that's a good way to end this podcast.
316
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400
Yeah, it was actually the reverse.
317
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,240
We were trying to turn the ship at Calvary,
318
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,760
you know, it was bankrupt when I went there.
319
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,240
And a few weeks after that,
320
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,280
I felt motivated to send Dr. Jim Henry
321
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,400
and First Baptist Church an offering.
322
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,280
And I went to, we were so broke.
323
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,880
I went to the elders and asked them to talk me out of it.
324
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,520
And instead they said, let's do it, let's do it.
325
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,800
And so they said, and let's do it right.
326
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,200
They said, take the offering for First Baptist
327
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,480
before you take yours.
328
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680
Let's not give them leftovers.
329
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,000
And I took the offering and Monday morning,
330
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,640
they came in and said the offering for First Baptist
331
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,120
was $19,000.
332
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,480
And they said, what do you want me to do?
333
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,760
I said, write a check and send the security guard
334
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,720
over to First Baptist with it and do it quickly.
335
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,040
I'm feeling weak.
336
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,120
A little while later, I got a wonderful call
337
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,120
from Jim Henry, he was weeping.
338
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,760
And he said, look, I've been struggling
339
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,320
with a certain decision.
340
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,080
I think the decision was to run for the president
341
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,840
of Southern Baptist Convention.
342
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,640
But he didn't say that, he said, I'm struggling.
343
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360
He said, I just never thought the confirmation
344
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,360
would come from a Pentecostal church.
345
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,280
I said, no, me neither, Jim.
346
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,280
But I thought that what I said in my mind
347
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,400
was deep within, let's be honest, I'm being honest.
348
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,000
I thought they would take an offering and send it back.
349
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,480
He never did.
350
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,440
But it was a huge turning point in the finances at Calvary.
351
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800
From that moment on, we never looked back.
352
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,720
We paid off a million dollars a year
353
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,680
on the dead-iron heritage.
354
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,400
And that was the turning point.
355
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,080
I'm not saying, here again, don't turn stories into doctrine.
356
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,000
I'm not saying that every Pentecostal church in America,
357
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,200
if you'll give $19,000 to the local Baptists,
358
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,960
they gotta pay your building off.
359
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,920
I'm just saying it was a moment of release and joy.
360
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,440
The people laughed.
361
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,320
They gave the offering with joy.
362
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,280
And I said, I want you to know where we're gonna send it.
363
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,040
We're gonna send it to First Baptist,
364
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,240
the most prosperous church in Orlando.
365
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:35,680
And it still is.
366
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:36,600
It still is.
367
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,960
It didn't make any sense to me.
368
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,840
But somehow it opened the valve.
369
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,840
And it just was a tremendous turning point
370
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,840
in the history at Calvary Church.
371
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,520
Well, that's a beautiful story.
372
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,520
And so as we wrap up this podcast,
373
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,960
I wanna thank you for taking time
374
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,920
on fairly short notice to be on with me.
375
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,600
And I wanna give you the last word.
376
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,960
Well, the last word is Jesus is Lord.
377
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,440
God is a good God.
378
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,280
He loves us.
379
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,000
He cares for us.
380
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,960
I believe in the spirit of generosity,
381
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,320
joyful giving because God is good.
382
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,040
The ace in the hole, if I can use that secular thing,
383
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,840
is yes, God will not be outgiven.
384
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,240
I believe that.
385
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,720
But I don't believe in giving to manipulate God.
386
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,640
I believe in giving because of who God is.
387
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,560
I hope you learned something from Dr. Mark Rutland
388
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,080
about prosperity.
389
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,520
There's so much more than we could say about the subject.
390
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,360
In fact, I dealt with it in my latest book
391
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,160
called Spirit-Led Living in an Upside-Down World
392
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,640
where I talk about the work of the Holy Spirit
393
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,480
and have a whole chapter on how you can achieve
394
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,360
your potential in God.
395
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,760
You know, I believe, as Dr. Rutland said,
396
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480
that God does want to prosper us.
397
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,640
He wants to bless us.
398
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,880
He enjoys blessing us.
399
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,040
The problem comes when we're greedy
400
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,480
or where we try to manipulate God.
401
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,000
I hope that you'll get my book.
402
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,760
It's available on Amazon.com.
403
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,000
It's also available on SteveStrangBooks.com.
404
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,840
In fact, you can get a bundle of several of my books.
405
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,160
If you enjoy this podcast
406
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,080
and if you look to me for leadership,
407
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,000
I hope that you'll get a copy
408
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,160
of Spirit-Led Living in an Upside-Down World.
409
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,640
Thank you for tuning in.
410
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,400
Please share this.
411
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,520
My podcasts have really taken off
412
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,240
because people like you share them.
413
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,440
And if you haven't subscribed, be sure to subscribe
414
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,120
so you're notified every Tuesday and Thursday at 4 p.m.
415
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,320
daylight saving time
416
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,600
for another episode of The Strang Report.
417
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:54,600
Until next time, God bless you.
