Quit Playing Mind Games! with Pastor Paul Daugherty

0:00 Hello everyone, I'm Stephen Strang, and welcome to this special edition of the Strang Report. You know, anxiety and depression and mental health issues are very real in our culture and even in the church, but it's a topic that most Christian and most Christian leaders don't deal with. But today my guest is Paul Daugherty. He's a pastor of a mega church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, called Victory Church, and he's written a new book that's just come out from Faith Words, and we're going to talk about his new book today and about how he is telling some of his own story. So let me first of all welcome you to my podcast. Paul, thank you for fitting this in and congratulations on this new book called Mind Games, Winning the Battle for Your Mental and Emotional Health. Yes, sir. I'm very proud of you because I've known you since before you were born. Did you know that? I was friends with your mom and dad in the early 80s, and then a couple years later you came along and, you know, I grieved, I seriously grieved when your father passed away at age 57 and kind of watched the transition with your mom taking over the church and then later you taking on the church.

1:33 So you know, I'm not exactly your uncle, but I'm proud like an uncle. And then for you to come out with this major book, I'm just so proud of you. So now that I have the personal stuff out of the way, we can do a deep dive into Mind Matters. Why did you write this book? Yes, sir. Well, first off, it's an honor to be with you and have admired what you do from afar growing up and always read your magazines as well growing up as a kid in our house. So big, big fan of yours and thank you for having me on your show on your podcast. Like you said, I grew up as a pastor's kid when my dad passed away suddenly of cancer.

2:15 He was a man of faith and a man who always spoke about the healing power of Jesus. And our church was called Victory. But when he passed away, it felt like it felt like a defeat. And it felt like my faith and everything I had been taught about healing and just, you know, a life of faith and victory was kind of rocked in that moment. And I watched as our church went through a very painful season of loss and grief and thousands of people started leaving our church during that time. It wasn't because they didn't like me or didn't like my mom in that role as an interim pastor. It's because they missed my dad. And many of them just honestly lost faith for a season because in their minds, they were like, if there was any guy that should have been healed of cancer, it was Billy Joe Doherty. If there was any person that they imagined was going to walk out with a testimony and, you know, come back to Victory Church and talk about the faithfulness of God and God healing them of cancer, it was going to be him. So when it didn't happen, we lost a lot of people in our church, a lot of our staff, and went through a really hard time or a hard season that lasted probably four and a half years. During that time, I personally was carrying a heavy burden, wanting to make sure I didn't lose everything my dad worked hard for, but then also questioning faith myself, questioning why this happened, why didn't he get healed,

3:49 and then walking through my own journey of trying to lead the church and trying to serve my mom and prepare to step in as pastor while I was dealing with all these mind games. And so I wrote this book, really started writing it during that time. I started writing down journaling what I was going through, the depression, the anxiety, the fear, the panic, the sense of failure, the sense of like... Why was it a failure? It wasn't a failure by you. I think I felt like I didn't pray hard enough during that time. Now, I talk about this in the book. I personally took on more responsibility than I should have, as if my prayers were broken, as if my faith was broken. And then through that, when people started leaving the church, a pastor takes it personal anytime someone leaves the congregation, even if they say, hey, it's not about you, we're looking for another place, or we just are taking a break from church. So I took every person who left personal, and I felt like I was failing at carrying on my dad's legacy during that time. And I felt like my world was crashing.

5:03 There were seasons during that depression where I didn't want to get out of bed. I would wake up and want to go back to sleep. I would eat more food. I would just try to get rid of the pain in whatever way I could. One of the things that I would do often is I would go up to our church building when no one was there, because my dad built this auditorium right before he died that was a 4,800 seat auditorium, which in a city like Tulsa, we're not Houston, Texas, we're not Orlando, Florida, we're not Miami. We don't have millions of people in our population. We have about 600,000 people in our city, which is large, but he built an auditorium that was so big. And I was like, once he passed away in my mind, I was like, this is never going to be filled. We're going to end up having to sell the church.

5:50 All these worst case scenarios started going through my head. Like we're going to lose people. We're going to lose this place. We have a dream center. We won't be able to feed the hungry, help the poor. We're going to have to close down our school because we had 420 employees when he died. Well, you also have a pretty major school. Is it like from K to 12? Yes, sir. We have a K through 12. I know a few people that are affiliated with your school. It's got a very good reputation. Is the school affected by his death? Oh, everything. Our school, our dream center, our camp, our college. So there's five different entities with different boards and different things. And so we had a college with 200 plus students. We had international Bible schools, 2000 international Bible schools that he had started in other nations. We had a dream center in our city modeled after Tommy and Matthew Barnett's dream center in LA and Phoenix. But in our city, it was ran by victory. Everything was affected. Donations went down. People's attendance went down massively. It wasn't just like a little bit. It was like drastic decrease. And so that led to a spiral in me, which I talk about in this book. Again, like the reason I wrote the book is because I want someone out there to know you're not alone in your struggles of panic, worry, doubt, fear. You haven't lost your faith. You haven't lost your Christianity. And I talk about in the book that I discovered when I was at my low point, I started searching the Bible,

7:21 just going, does God use depressed people? Does God minister through people who have suicidal thoughts? And I realized Elijah was one of those guys in the Bible that spiraled into a depression and even had thoughts where he said, God, take my life. I'm no better than my ancestors. I don't want to live. And yet God didn't abandon him. God didn't cancel him as a prophet. God actually pursued him in the wilderness, spoke to him in a mountain through a whisper and said, Hey, I'm not finished with your story. I'm not done with your testimony. David went through bouts of depression. Of course, we know Solomon did until he came back to the fear of the Lord, but Peter went through his own depression. And when I think about all these people that God moved through and then modern day heroes, people that I didn't know, like Mother Teresa went through her own deep seasons of dark.

8:12 These are stories that you tell in the book. Yes. So through the book, I help readers to know you're not alone in your struggle. Your faith is not broken. God has not abandoned you. God still loves you. God wants to help you. The key and the cure to our depression is not just going to come through good counseling, good trauma therapy, or maybe medication, although those things are helpful. But ultimately there is a spiritual component to help us walk in victory over mental and emotional unintended, right? Yes. Walk in victory. Well, you know, thankfully I don't battle depression. I battle other things, but I've got a good friend who battles depression. He's a strong Christian. In fact, now that I think of it, he's an O.R.U. grad lives in fact, he lives there in Tulsa. And so being his friend, I mean, there are days he can't even get out of bed. And I consider it to be a very strong Christian. It's almost like a medical thing of some kind. And so, and the little bit I've read about it, when people are like this, it's like, it's almost like a lifelong struggle. So what, what happened that you turned that around because you know, that that's in your past. That's not in your present. Yes. Okay.

9:30 So something crazy happened that I talk about, like in the first couple of chapters, by the way, you're a publisher's dream holding up the book at every time, every time you can. Yeah. Every time they tell me, they say, you know, my friend who helped me write the book, he's like, anytime you get the chance to talk about it, hold it in your hand. For me. Okay. So right before my dad passed, I was working as our college pastor as a pastor's kid. We were free labor our whole life. So the first time I got hired on was when I was 23, right after I graduated O.R.U. my dad said, okay, we've got a position on staff where it's going to start off part time, work your way into full time. And it was with our college ministry. I started off as the college pastor and we had a young adults ministry of about 250, 300 young adults. And then it blew up to like 800 young adults. Well, during that time, prior to that, I had worked as a janitor at oral Roberts university where I went to college and the only position they had on staff at O.R.U. was a janitorial position. I actually worked with a couple of guys that I think went on to go and work for your son at relevant side story. But anyways, when I was working there, they gave me a bunch of keys and I had access to all the doors across O.R.U. when I came to work for my dad, he only gave me one key. And so I talk about in the book how I was kind of frustrated. I said, dad, I had more trust and access as a janitor across the street than I do underneath my own dad's ministry. And he said, Paul, the only key you need is the key I give you. And I didn't

11:04 think about that for a long time. When he passed away, I remember oftentimes being locked out of the church building, locked out of certain rooms, doors. I didn't have the key to, I would have to call a security guard, a janitor. Hey, can you come unlock the doors? And they were always like, why doesn't your mom give you a key? And during that time, my mom said, remember just to use the key your dad gave you. And when it's time for you to someday be the pastor, I'll give you the rest of the keys. And I felt this frustration that I wasn't just locked out of doors physically. I felt locked out of doors spiritually, mentally. I felt like I was locked out of being able to cast vision in our church. I felt like I couldn't raise money, that my dad was such a great visionary that attracted people.

11:48 Say it, he was a great fundraiser. He was a great fundraiser. I mean, we literally saw God's provision on everything with debt freedom because he was anointed to do that. And I felt locked out of that door. I thought, I'm not going to be able to do what he did. Not only that, he was a great preacher. And I felt like my preaching gift was not as strong as his. I felt like he was a great apostle, like he had raised up other pastors and leaders and churches all around the world. And I thought, I'm so unqualified, I'm so unworthy. I don't have the keys to unlock those kinds of doors. One night, two years after he passed, I was outside the building battling depression.

12:31 In fact, that same week I had contemplated taking my life. Now, I have never thought about it since then. And prior to that, I hadn't thought about it. But I was at such a low point and our church was in such a bad place financially. The morale was down. I hated where I was at in life and I hated where our church was at. We just, it felt so, so sad. And I remember that same week I was walking down a street where there was a bridge overpass of a highway and I looked over the overpass and it was about a 40 foot drop. And I thought, if I jumped, I wouldn't, I might hurt myself, but I wouldn't die. But if a semi truck hit me, maybe I'd be gone. And it was a very dark thought. And I was watching as the semi trucks kept driving under the bridge and the enemy was playing mind games in my head. The enemy was literally using my mind as a playground and just beaten me down. And that same week I was reminded of scriptures my dad taught me and mom taught me growing up. Hey, I will live and not die and declare the works of the Lord greater as he who lives in me than he that's in the world. I'm more than a conqueror. So I started quoting scriptures and I talked myself away from that bridge. And I said, Satan, I refuse to jump. Even though I'm super depressed, I refuse to throw away my life. I believe God has a purpose. Even though I can't see it, I believe God's not done with me. So I walked away from the bridge, but life didn't get better. But something happened that same week that I'll never forget. I was

14:05 outside our church building. I couldn't get into the church. I called security. They said, Hey, we're locking up doors in North Tulsa at the dream center, about 20 miles from our main campus. We won't be back for another hour. We got to do some things here. So I start trying to break into our church building. I punched the glass. I punched, you know, I'm hurting my hand. I start trying to shimmy my credit card through the cracks, trying to pick the lock. Nothing's working. Finally, I pull out that key my dad gave me and I thought, okay, I'm going to shove this key into the door, wiggle it around, yank that door and break in. When I put it in the keyhole, it fit perfectly. And that kind of threw me. And then I turned it in and unlocked the outside door to our main campus. And I thought, God, did you just change my key? What just happened? And then I went to other doors in the building and I started putting that same little key my dad gave me in, turning it. And I realized he had given me the master key and I didn't know I had it. And as I'm walking through those halls, I finally come to the main auditorium door and I thought, if this key works on this door, that this room- So you had the master key, but you used it just for some doors and thought it was a key just for those doors. You never had occasion to find out it was a master key. That is a pretty incredible gift that he gave you. And he probably wanted you to figure it out yourself.

15:28 Yeah, I only used it on my office. I thought it was only a key for my office door. And so that night, as I'm discovering it unlocks all these doors, I come to the main auditorium and I go, if this master key unlocks this room, the room that's intimidated me the most, the room where we've lost, our chairs are empty, our seats are empty, where we've been setting up pipe and drape curtains because we can't fill up even the floor section. I thought, if this key unlocks this door, everything's going to change. And I turned the key to unlock the door and I sat on this stage and I started laughing and crying. And I looked up to heaven as if I could see my dad looking through a window in heaven and I could see him just going, duh, you've had the master key to victory this whole time. And I sat there and I thought, I've had the master key to victory. I've had the master key to victory as a building, but I've had the master key to victory in my life through Jesus Christ this whole time. And I've been telling myself, I don't have what it takes. I'm not good enough. I'm unqualified.

16:30 I'm not worthy. I don't have access. I don't have the key. And I heard the Lord say, Paul, not only you, but every believer has the master key to victory. They have the master key to walk in victory, to walk in a sound mind, to walk in authority over demonic strongholds, to take captive every thought that's not from God. It's not just for Billy Joe. It's not just for Steve Strang. It's not just for Oral Roberts or Lester Somerall or Smith Wigglesworth or Billy Graham, but every believer can walk in victory. And I felt the Lord like had an epiphany. And I sat on that stage and I looked at that big auditorium and I thought, this room, I used to think this room was too big for us to ever minister to people. And then I heard the Lord say, it's too small for how many people you're going to reach if you start walking in authority and walking in victory and take your God given right as a son for what I've called you to walk in. And I felt the Lord say it's time to shake off the insecurity, the inferiority, the I'm not qualified, the I'm not good enough and start, start walking in a greater level of boldness and courage. And so that next week, it was like something started to shift. I didn't come immediately out of the depression. It took while, but over the next year, it was like I started gaining ground. I started walking in greater peace, greater love, greater joy, greater stability. I never went back to that bridge.

17:57 Since then, I've never contemplated throwing away my life. I've been able to walk in victory in areas where I used to be jealous of other people used to feel like I'm not as good as this person. I tell a whole chapter in the book where a couple of guys in our city just blew up with their ministry. One of them was Mike Todd, and he was a guy that I grew up with. And I remember battling such deep envy when he blew up as a minister. And I felt like the Holy Spirit was like challenging me. Hey, Paul, you've got to learn to celebrate your brother, not be envious, not be threatened, but celebrate what I'm doing through his ministry through him. And that was another one of the mind games that I had to walk through. The mind games of worry when our ministry was financially in a really hard place, we were going to have to lay off a lot of people. And when my dad died, we did, we laid off 150 employees. It was really painful over a matter of 18 months, people who raised me, people who rocked me as a baby. And I had to sit down and say, we can't afford to keep you on staff. So then when I stepped in as pastor, we were threatened right when COVID hit with another financial stressful season. How do we pay for people when we can't have a school open, when we can't have certain things going. And so the whole book is really dealing with the battlefield of the mind, whether it's worry, panic, depression, envy, or just a sense of I'm unqualified insecurity. But those are some of the stories that I share.

19:24 Well, that's exciting. And the book has just come out. I haven't read it yet, but I can promise you I'm going to, because it sounds so good. But and there's two things I want to talk about in the time we have left. The first is, you know, your problems are real. And I know the family and the situation. I can remember when victory, what year was victory started probably in the late 70s. 1981. 81. Well, I knew your parents probably in 82 or 83. And so I was right. I they had kind of a just a startup church. So I've seen this.

20:04 But you know what, you're you're blessed, blessed, blessed to big church and all this kind of stuff. And most people look at you as like you're born with a silver spoon in your mouth. And I mean, the story is phenomenal, because there are a lot of ministries where the leader implodes for some reason, and, and there isn't a happy outcome. But why do you say to the average person that's working down at the paper mill, or driving Uber, or whatever they're doing farming land, and they have problems based on their background, their genetics, their circumstances in life? What do you say to them that they can have this kind of turnaround? Because everybody that battles this needs to have some kind of turnaround, they need to have that master key in their life. What is that? How how how does it apply?

20:56 Because a lot of people say, this is great. You got a great testimony applies to you. It doesn't apply to me. Hmm. I think it applies to everyone. I think at the end of the day, victory starts in the mind, right? So whether I'm working at Starbucks or quick trip or driving as an Uber driver or teaching in a classroom or I'm a plumber or electrician or a lawyer or dentist or a stay at home mom, I think all of us want to have peace in our minds. I think that's a desire of every human being. I just want peace. I want peace. I want joy. I want to feel good about my life. I don't want to daily hate getting out of bed. So whether you're a pastor or again, you're one of those other seasons of life or other roles in life, we all need peace. We all need joy. And that is one in the mind. It starts on the inside, right?

21:48 The battle for a better life is between the ears. If I can begin to think the right thoughts, take captive of the wrong thoughts, figure out a formula every time a bad thought comes up every time I'm tempted to live in sadness that my dad's not here. You know, I talk with people all the time at our church who are in different spheres of life and different, you know, careers. And they tell me your testimony about losing your dad and dealing with grief and loss and pain and the loss of people in the church directly relates to things I'm dealing with with my own grief and loss. So I think grief in general is a, it's a connection point for all of us, whether you live in Brazil, China, South Korea, North America, Florida, Oklahoma, we're all, we're all dealing with our own version of grief from loss, whether it's the loss of a parent, loss of a child, a miscarriage, the loss of a job, the loss of a relationship that was once good with your family. And now things are sour and you haven't talked to that person in 10 years. And I think that loss creates sadness. It creates depression. It creates worry. It creates, in some cases, for some people, it creates a deep sense of anger at God or anger at life. And so how do we deal with that? This is what the book is about. It's getting back to that place of how do I find peace through the word of God. So I give a spiritual, but also practical kind of plan of how to get to a place of personal

23:23 peace, personal joy, personal love for your life, feeling good about life. And I talk about really some things you can do practically, things like serving and loving other people. I didn't know that what I would do for others was actually going to be a cure for my own life, that actually going to nursing homes and visiting dads who have lost their kids and they've outlived their own children and they're alone in a nursing home that I would find healing in that nursing home sitting with parents who've lost their kids because I was a kid who's lost my dad. So there's practical things I talk about in the book that an Uber driver, a barista at a coffee shop, a teacher at a school, a mom at home could go, man, I can do that today. I could apply to...

24:11 But what they need to do is go buy the book or I went on Amazon myself today and it's available on audio. And on Amazon it says in this important book, a mega church pastor acknowledges the mental health crisis happening in our churches today and gives readers practical tools to fight back against depression, anxiety, insecurity, and to help them find victory, important word there, victory. And we're almost out of time, but I know that your father was an amazing leader, so is your mom in her own way. She is. And you have emerged as a leader. And I understand that Dr. Mark Rutland, our mutual friend, was a significant part in that. So we were talking about this a little bit before we went on air. So what leadership thing did you learn from Dr. Rutland that you can pass along? He has the National Institute on Christian Leadership. I've been through it myself, believe it or not.

25:15 Yes. I went through the very first cohort and learned a lot. A game changer. It changed me. I went through that actually right as I was coming into the role of stepping in as pastor, as I was coming out of that depression, I went through his class and I actually went through it twice and learned so much about the importance of not giving up and as a leader, getting that grit, that determination that if God gives me the chance to lead a group of people in whatever capacity, that I'm going to do whatever it takes to take them from where they are to where God wants them to be.

25:56 And his whole class on turnaround leadership, what he did at Calvary Chapel, what he did at Southeastern at Oral Roberts University, I got to see it firsthand here in Tulsa at ORU. And I got to watch as he was doing that. So I think for me, biggest takeaway I got was the example of really changing a culture and a narrative. At ORU, things were very depressing for a lot of the faculty and students because of walking through just a shift, a major shift in our university and people not knowing what was next, people not knowing who's going to be the next president and where is our university headed.

26:37 And when he stepped in, he stepped in with such clarity and just a narrative of joy. And he began this confession every time he got up on stage that we would be the most joyful university in the universe. And it was like this wild declaration that I still remember. I don't remember all the exact words, but I remember what it made me feel. It made me feel like he has a vision for the future that's going to shift the culture on campus from sadness to joy and shift that mind game that happens in people's lives. We all need this. Every student on that campus got better as a result of his leadership. And I had already graduated, but I was a student in masters, getting my master's degree while he was there.

27:25 And I loved that class. I loved all that he taught about how to handle crazy board members, manipulative Jezebel spirits, how to handle the Absalom spirit. He had such good practical tools for every leader out there on how to turn things around. And that's such a good testimony. And as we wrap up, I want to encourage people to share this. If you know someone who's going through a difficult time, share this, post it on social media. If you don't subscribe to the Strang Report, do so. Smack that little bell so you know when we're on live on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 4pm Eastern time. And go to Amazon.com or your Christian bookstore or Barnes and Noble and get Mind Games by Paul Doherty, winning the battle for your mental and emotional health. Thank you for watching and tune in for another report for another episode of the Strang Report on the Charisma Podcast Network. God bless you.

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