March 7, 2023
Debbie Runyon-When Your Brother Is a Prodigal, episode 94
Debbie Runyon, sister to our prodigal Josh, once asked me why I let him get away with so many things he did. I said, “I could be after Josh all day every day with all the choices he made. I decided to focus on the ones that would save his life.”
In our honest and vulnerable conversation, Debbie shares from what she remembers when Josh first joined us as a foster child, some realities she learned, and a few lessons that have been helpful as she parents her five children.
Resources:
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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal podcast.
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And also help and hope for your own life journey.
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I am very excited about today because we have a very special guest, my daughter Debbie.
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She's also Josh's sister. Josh, whom you've heard about a lot.
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Her name is Debbie Runyon. She is a graduate of Taylor University.
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She's a very good soccer player, wife to Nick and mom of five, including three teenage boys.
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She's also a personal trainer.
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And if I lived where she does, I might hire her to train me.
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But no, I don't think that's going to happen.
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The family lives in Bozeman, Montana, where it is warm up in the 30s and the snow is melting.
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But the whole family loves all of their outdoor activities, whether it's winter or summer or fall or anything that they're doing.
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They're into it, even the little ones.
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Today, Debbie and I will chat about our experience and especially her experience as Josh came into our home as a foster child.
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And then we adopted him and the challenges that all of us faced and how it has impacted her parenting as well.
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Remember, when you hear something you think you might want to apply or try, you should write it down.
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If you're like me, if you don't write it down, it's gone.
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So, Debbie, welcome.
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Thank you.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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Me too.
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It's really nice of our listeners to give me a reason to be face to face with you.
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We always need a good excuse, don't we?
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Actually not.
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Actually, that's true. We talk all the time.
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We do talk pretty often.
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So, Debbie, you were, I believe, let's see, Josh was eight, so you were probably nine, ten, I forget.
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He was almost nine when he came into our lives as a foster child.
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And we had only met him a few times before that.
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We'd gone to the beach once, to the beach house, and we'd been, I don't remember where all,
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but we met him a few times.
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And then all of a sudden he was given to us as a foster child.
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And we did ask you what you thought about that.
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We didn't just say, oh, by the way, we have this boy coming to live with us.
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And so just curious, what were your thoughts as you anticipated a boy just a little younger than you,
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a couple of years, coming to live with us?
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I think at the time I didn't think very hard about it.
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It seemed like the right thing to do.
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There was need. He needed a family.
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And I don't know if this is something I learned later at the time, but I feel like I knew it then,
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that after you had gone through a miscarriage, that you had felt like God had another child for our family.
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And so it didn't seem unexpected in that way because there seemed, I could see through you guys primarily,
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I could see that God had a hand in what was happening.
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And so it just seemed like the right thing.
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So then Josh was in our home and for him it was a huge change.
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He'd already been a year before taken from his mom because of neglect and some abuse that occurred
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and had been living with his grandparents who said they really weren't able to take care of him.
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And so for him it was a pretty big shock.
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And I don't know what you thought.
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I know that he was very unused to structured home life, like we ate dinner at a table.
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Oh yes, and we had a bedtime.
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And he went to school every single day and he was expected to do whatever homework had been sent home.
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He was quite behind in school at that time though, so that involved extra stuff.
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But he was there in our home and I don't know if you, I know you remember things later,
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but in that early first year or so, if you have any remembrances or thoughts about that.
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So I don't have a lot of clear memories, partially because I was a selfish teenager and had soccer.
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There were other things going on and I wasn't the one helping him with his homework and things like that.
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So there are things that I missed, certainly.
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So rationally I was feeling good about that time.
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This is the right thing to do. This is what we should do.
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And I think under the surface there was probably confusion more than anything
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because things were harder than I realized they would be.
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But I don't think I really took the time to acknowledge that in any real way above the surface that I could process that.
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But just that we're doing the right thing, so it's the right thing.
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But there were some differences in how he was raised to how we were raised.
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Just some, yes.
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It affected the family dynamic for sure.
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And so I didn't process a lot of those kinds of things until much later.
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But I did feel confused about the idea of doing the right thing and it being hard.
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Looking back, that was a shock to me.
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And that may have been because I was 11 going into more aware years too.
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Before things really had been fairly easy in a lot of ways, you do the right thing and then good things happen.
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I don't know. Good things happen, yes.
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It was more than, it wasn't just Josh, if that makes sense. It was me becoming more aware of that.
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So after three years of Josh as a foster child, which were challenging years,
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especially because of school and education,
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but they terminated his mother's rights and said, he's up for adoption. You have first choice.
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And there were mixed feelings.
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I was pretty sure that when God told me he was sending us a son, he didn't add for three years.
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And so in my mind, there was not a question, but we would say yes to that.
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Michelle said, she said, well, I don't know if I want to keep him because he's challenging.
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But she said, I don't want to ruin the rest of his life by rejecting him because that is the way Michelle would think.
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By now, she's 12 years old and already started her counseling ministry.
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And your dad had great reservations because he was taking a lot of time and attention.
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He's like, do we really have the kind of time and attention that he needs?
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Right. And so we had a little family meeting and everyone was expressing their thoughts.
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And then it was your turn. Do you remember what you said?
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I remember thinking and I feel like I'm just kind of saying the same thing over again that, of course, that's what we would do.
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Like, we started this. We're going to keep doing this.
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Why would we change what God's put in our path? Like, that's the rationale in my head was that's what I was thinking.
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OK. And that's basically what you said. You were a little more explicit in it.
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We just need to suffer gladly. I don't remember saying that, but that sounds like something I would say.
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The rest of us remember you're saying that.
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You added God sent him to us. We he must have things to teach us.
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And so Josh came to live with us permanently.
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He became actually our son and not just a foster son, and he became your brother.
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And I thought because, you know, he would be more secure, no more abandonment by the people who mattered in his life,
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but that we really cared about him and would be there for him.
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And so I thought the things that had been so challenging will settle down. Right.
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He went into middle school. And because he's basically two years behind in school, you know what sixth grade boys, how tall they are.
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And you know what eighth grade boys are like.
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And so even though he was in sixth grade in middle school, he towered over all the sixth graders.
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And he found out that there was great advantage to being bigger than everyone else.
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And so he began to do things that included bullying and getting money from the smaller children.
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But he also just began to make a lot of bad decisions because school was way beyond him.
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He still was not up to par for school. And he had a pretty strong ADD.
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He spent his life in alternative classroom. We had a conversation about that.
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We said, Josh, how many kids are in alternative classroom?
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He said, oh, every day about four or five or six.
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And we said, so Debbie, how many people do you know who have been in alternative classroom?
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And you didn't know anyone, I don't think. And Michelle did not know anyone who'd been there.
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And then we said, how many kids are there in school?
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Oh, and I think there were 2000, maybe 1200. I don't remember. It was over a thousand for sure.
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And so he began to get the picture. Maybe that wasn't the norm.
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But because of the background that he had and the life he'd lived,
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he found himself more comfortable with some of the kids who were always acting out
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and getting in trouble and making bad decisions.
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And so that did a couple of things. It put more stress on all of us because he was in trouble often.
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It put a lot more on me because I was the one who was mainly managing life with him.
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And I don't know, did you have thoughts? I know you were playing soccer much of the time
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in those years before you left for college.
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Like you said, it wasn't there a whole lot.
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And looking back, I don't know if I would have been there more or not.
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You know, if things had been different or whatever, I don't know that I would have been really.
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But like I do remember having you had asked earlier for some negatives and some positives.
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Some of our negatives were that I some of the friends that he would bring home,
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I didn't feel comfortable around. And when they were younger, it wasn't as big of a deal.
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But as they got older, there were some character issues that were concerning.
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Yes, there were. Like I got some stuff stolen.
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Like there was just always it didn't ever feel stable.
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Like there I knew what was going to me at the house, like who was going to be there,
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what the situation was going to be, you know, if Josh was going to be in trouble.
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So I think I probably pulled back some because of that.
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And just I don't remember thinking through any of that at the time, but I I definitely threw myself into school and soccer and,
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you know, eventually boyfriend in high school.
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And I I wish and I don't know if this was even possible.
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I wish Josh and I had had more of a relationship.
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And I don't know, you know, you can always say I wish things had been different, but we didn't.
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I think we grew up parts not together during those years.
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Well, it didn't help that he liked to tell on you if you were doing anything I should know.
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Well, right. He said, Debbie, you know, isn't the angel you think she is?
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And then he said, Michelle isn't either. Yeah.
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I said, you know, Josh, I probably know more than you think I do.
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So I remember one time you told me, said, why do you let him get away with so many things that that you wouldn't get away with
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that that you didn't agree with that he should be doing?
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And I said to you, I said, well, Debbie, Josh is doing so many things that are not what we would prefer that I could be after him all the time.
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Yeah. Telling him that he was wrong and misbehaving and doing inappropriate things.
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I said, so I have to choose what I'm going to work on and get after him.
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And so I choose the things that might save his life because that's the direction he was going.
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He joined a gang and there was no telling where that could lead.
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And so that was kind of hard. So here's a question I hadn't asked you before.
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When you went away to college, you we just Josh asked if he could have your room.
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And so we decided since the room that grandma had been in was now not being used,
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we fixed it up for you and let you move down there and Josh got your room.
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Yeah. But afterwards, I got the impression you weren't very happy about that.
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You don't remember? No, I'm sure I made some comment like that didn't take very long or something.
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I don't I don't remember really hearing that much.
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I think I was just a teenager and like wanted to say something like that.
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I don't remember caring that much. OK, I felt to me like you cared.
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OK. And so I was feeling guilty about it.
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But at the same time, it would have felt very bad to Josh if he had the tiny room and you had the big room.
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And we wouldn't let him go there. No. And I liked having my own space when I came home from college.
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It was a good setup. So yeah, I thought you would would think that that that would be good.
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So let's let's just think about your relationship or your perspective between me and Josh,
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because he did consume a great amount of my attention. And was that hard for you?
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Did you feel neglected or robbed or at the time?
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And this is my own personality.
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Like I I have had to work quite a bit in my adulthood on like recognizing feelings and processing them
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and like not trying to say that's a bad feeling, but just, you know, like there's things that I've learned to do
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that I just didn't know how to do then. And so I don't remember having negative feelings about it.
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Although I think that I think I probably did.
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But, you know, you asked a bunch of stuff really like what I thought about Josh coming to live with us
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and that I thought it was the right thing to do. And that really is a dominating feature for me personally,
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is if it's the right thing to do, that's what we do. And it's not like I really didn't think about my feelings at all about it.
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OK.
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Looking back, I see where maybe I had a feeling and instead of acknowledging it, I just probably stepped away further
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and didn't engage as much as probably what happens.
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So thinking then, because you've processed a lot more later.
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So you said that you really didn't think a lot about it when you were a teenager.
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But as you were away at college and as an adult, did have you been able to look back at that and see things that God was working into your life?
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Or teaching you?
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Definitely. As is coming out very clearly in this.
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I'm a pretty black and white person.
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I remember that.
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Right and wrong.
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And it really did. Especially as I was in college and could step away and see things a little more clearly maybe.
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It bothered me that I think like what you would call mercy, I would call enabling probably.
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And I don't. It was frustrating for me to see him get taken out of consequences.
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Although I do. Even at the time, I understood that he was getting himself into some pretty serious consequences.
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So you're really trying to help him move forward while in life.
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So even then I got that and I do get that now.
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But coming out on the other end, because at the time I could just see what was there then.
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And you and God were having all sorts of conversations about what was to come.
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And all I could see was right then.
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And I, you know, being the experienced parent that I was at the age of 20, I was just like, no, if I were doing it, I would do that differently.
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And I mean, probably you and I parent differently.
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But I see now extreme value for you continuing to engage with him and to help him make big decisions and to forgive him.
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There was there was a lot there that wasn't resonating with that I have seen God works through over these years.
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So when you look back now, what is your relationship with Josh now?
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I think it's a lot better now.
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I mean, there were still a lot of years into adulthood where it was it was kind of hard because there were he was moving towards making better decisions.
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But there were still some bad decisions being made.
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And it was just hard to walk a path in real relationship together.
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And I would picture I think in in recent years, that has changed a bit.
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And I think that we have some time to make up, probably.
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But it's been very good in recent years.
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So now that you have five children, including three boys.
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Yeah. Right.
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And the four boys, I know, but the teenagers that are a lot in the age that we're going through the challenges with Josh, especially though they did go on until he was about 28.
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But what are some things maybe that impacted you, especially as you look back on it, that have helped you as a parent?
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I think it has given me a good perspective on how bad things can be.
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And I'm not even talking about Josh, really, because it was more his friends.
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I Josh, I think, had a lot of difficulties that weren't even his fault, but had to do with when he was like when his mom was pregnant with him.
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Like he just there were some difficulties in decision making that just it's not it's not even his fault.
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Right. It's not.
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And truly, he has always had a gentle spirit and a kind heart.
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He has, hasn't he?
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Yes, he has.
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I've never I've never felt unsafe, even when he was having his most difficult times.
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I've never felt unsafe around him.
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And there's never been like a breach in a relationship like that at all.
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But he had some friends who I wouldn't say the same things.
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And so just having the perspective that I don't think I would have had the experience with just people who who aren't always like don't always deserve the doubt.
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But
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it has been good for me to see the whole spectrum, I think.
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I think if I had grown up, I mean, we grew up in a little bit of a bubble.
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Oh, yes, we did.
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A little bit of a Christian bubble.
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You did.
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And my ideas of like if you do the right thing, then things will go well is not accurate.
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It's not what God promised.
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And it's and it was very evident that like that's not necessarily true.
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Things can be hard, even if you're doing the right thing and maybe especially if you're doing.
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And so I think moving forward with that knowledge, it gives me a lot of grace for my own kids.
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And it also gives me a down the line.
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Like if you do this, then this will be the consequence, but it's a it's not a just behave right kind of thing.
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It's like there's reasons why we have these rules.
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But I think that I would have been much more behavior focused and I am much more focused with my own kids.
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That makes me happy.
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But I watch you with them and and you have great relationship with them.
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And that's one of the things that I talk about on this podcast all the time is you maintain relationship.
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And when you focus so much on behavior and choices and consequences, therefore, for those things,
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as opposed to how do we work together, how do we help the child?
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And so that's an encouraging thing because you do a beautiful job with your kids.
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You know, they're really good kids.
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I like them. I like them, too.
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I think they like me, too.
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They're wonderful.
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And but so one of the things I think that was really telling was when your dad was in the hospital and Josh was there.
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And first of all, that was probably the most mature and adult that you'd seen him up close,
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because usually the visits were just family get togethers and lots of kids.
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Yes. So did you get to communicate with him some then?
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Because you all were he was there a lot and you were there the whole time.
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So I I definitely think and this is I mean, I wouldn't have wanted this, obviously.
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But the time that we all spent together in dad's last days there were the closest I think we've ever been.
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Yeah, I agree with that.
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And in a in a real way that I I think I've always wanted.
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And it hasn't it's been growing towards that.
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But it was it was a very beautiful time with family.
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And I'm sorry, it was a beautiful time with family.
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And one of the things I asked the Lord after dad had moved on to heaven, I said, So why did he have to go now?
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And he said to be kind to him.
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And I said, Did we wait too long?
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Because 10 days is a long time and I see you. And the Lord said, What happened with the family?
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And I just it was such a sweet time with you and Michelle and Josh and dad's brother, Brad, for us to be together.
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And so for me, it's joy to think that the challenges that we went through.
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And I know just what you said, your preferred black and white approach to things at that time that I was way too merciful or lenient with Josh.
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And yet to see where he's come and see the work God's done in each of our lives.
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And so that was a very special time that maybe made up for some of the hard times.
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I was personally very impacted by Josh's wisdom and maturity that he showed during that time and his willingness to engage with the medical personnel and ask some questions.
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And those were all such a contrast to what he had been when he was younger.
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And so any other thoughts on just how God took this child who'd been so wounded, brought him into our family, took us all through challenges and yet to see what a person, a man that he has become.
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Any other thoughts on that?
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I mean, watching you walk through it and watching your relationship with the Lord, that you were very open about how it was hard, but that God was being very clear with you was a testimony to how I would like to hear it.
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That I would be leaning into the Lord for wisdom and strengths.
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So there's definitely that. I think also for your listeners, maybe this is an eye opener for me that I gave up before God did.
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Like I just didn't think Josh was going to make the choices that he needed to move forward well in life.
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And God had given up on him and you had given up on him.
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And I'm so glad it took a long time.
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It did take a long time.
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And so I think it's easy for people to give up because it's hard.
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But I'm also thankful that God didn't give up on me.
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Well, your time was shorter.
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But yeah, I think that's really true that God is, well, of course, God knows the end.
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And we don't. But he's patient with us and all of us have growing to do.
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And he just is willing to keep after us and keep loving us no matter what and giving grace and mercy, two of his favorite words in Scripture, grace and mercy.
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And so it's for me, it helps me in my relationships with other people.
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I hopefully learned some things from Josh, even as the parent of two wonderful daughters who had their own challenges, but for sure.
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And so I learned an awful lot from our relationship with Josh that has been impactful to me.
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I learned an awful lot about giving thanks to God.
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He kept telling me, say thank you, say thank you.
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And when I watch you and Michelle as parents, you all do such a beautiful job.
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So I'd like to get a little credit for maybe you had good parenting, but maybe you also learned.
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You get some credit.
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But maybe you also learned watching the things not to do because we didn't do that all perfectly.
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I certainly didn't and probably one of my greatest regrets is that Josh took my attention away from you all, from you and Michelle and from dad.
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And so that was to varying degrees hurtful.
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And yet what a beautiful thing to see how God brought us back together in a sense.
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Now he already had been.
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And every time you and your kids would come here, we'd go out to his farm.
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And that seemed positive.
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And he was thrilled that that would happen.
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So the whole learning of patience and learning how God deals with us has been important for me.
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And if you were to share anything else with our listeners, what might it be?
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What kind of thing do you think has been a real benefit to you for having lived through those harder years?
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I really do think that the way that I look at the world was challenged and that God works in our mess.
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And I think my my need to do things right may have stemmed a little bit from thinking that God couldn't work with me messy.
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And so I think that that has been a green thing to see that God can make really hard situations and turn them into something beautiful.
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And, you know, like my my situation didn't start hard like his did.
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Like it's a very different scenario that that's not afraid of our mess, that there's a redemption story.
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One last thought.
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So what's a benefit to your children that Josh was in your life?
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I mean, it's probably good that I had a boy in my house.
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OK, that's good.
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Because I have four boys now and I think if it had just been Michelle and I, I would have been much more surprised by a lot of things.
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Josh and his friends.
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Yeah.
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The energy is is different, the interactions are different, and so I think just that is a benefit.
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But again, I just I think that they benefit because I care more about heart than behavior.
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OK, that's that I really that's good.
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I'm glad for you to repeat that, because I think that might be the biggest takeaway for our listeners.
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That it's not just behavior.
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Behavior matters.
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But again, the heart and the love and the relationship matter even more.
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So it causes you to have different ways to deal with behavior that have a little more grace and mercy in them, but still have good boundaries and consequences.
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Any last words you have?
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I don't know if this came across at the beginning, because I just kind of have a dry way of saying things, but I am very happy that Josh is part of our family.
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I certainly, you know, looking back with my adult more maturity, at least than I had before, I wish that I could have done things differently to build that relationship.
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But I'm very glad that God brought Josh to our lives.
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Me too.
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And you too.
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I'm so glad.
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Thanks, sweetheart.
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Thank you for being willing to share and remember, draw out some memories that you hadn't had to think about.
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And your willingness to think deeply and to be honest.
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So thank you for that.
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And to my listeners, I hope that this will be helpful to you as you think of how you deal with someone who's just given you a lot of trouble or making you making some really hard or sad decisions that you need to deal with.
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And I'm trusting that you wrote some thoughts down.
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So you'll remember and maybe your memories not as bad as mine.
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But why don't you tell a friend also if you enjoyed this episode today and this very informal conversation that Debbie and I have had.
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Next week, we are going to start a series on mercy.
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And some of you are like, you can talk about mercy for a whole series or you don't think you really want to be giving much mercy.
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But, you know, our God is an incredible mercy giver.
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And so we're just going to look at some of the times and the ways and the people who receive mercy from God that will hopefully impact our lives.
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God bless you.
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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal podcast.
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And also help and hope for your own life journey.
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I am very excited about today because we have a very special guest, my daughter Debbie.
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She's also Josh's sister. Josh, whom you've heard about a lot.
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Her name is Debbie Runyon. She is a graduate of Taylor University.
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She's a very good soccer player, wife to Nick and mom of five, including three teenage boys.
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She's also a personal trainer.
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And if I lived where she does, I might hire her to train me.
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But no, I don't think that's going to happen.
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The family lives in Bozeman, Montana, where it is warm up in the 30s and the snow is melting.
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But the whole family loves all of their outdoor activities, whether it's winter or summer or fall or anything that they're doing.
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They're into it, even the little ones.
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Today, Debbie and I will chat about our experience and especially her experience as Josh came into our home as a foster child.
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And then we adopted him and the challenges that all of us faced and how it has impacted her parenting as well.
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Remember, when you hear something you think you might want to apply or try, you should write it down.
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If you're like me, if you don't write it down, it's gone.
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So, Debbie, welcome.
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Thank you.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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Me too.
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It's really nice of our listeners to give me a reason to be face to face with you.
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We always need a good excuse, don't we?
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Actually not.
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Actually, that's true. We talk all the time.
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We do talk pretty often.
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So, Debbie, you were, I believe, let's see, Josh was eight, so you were probably nine, ten, I forget.
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He was almost nine when he came into our lives as a foster child.
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And we had only met him a few times before that.
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We'd gone to the beach once, to the beach house, and we'd been, I don't remember where all,
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but we met him a few times.
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And then all of a sudden he was given to us as a foster child.
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And we did ask you what you thought about that.
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We didn't just say, oh, by the way, we have this boy coming to live with us.
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And so just curious, what were your thoughts as you anticipated a boy just a little younger than you,
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a couple of years, coming to live with us?
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I think at the time I didn't think very hard about it.
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It seemed like the right thing to do.
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There was need. He needed a family.
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And I don't know if this is something I learned later at the time, but I feel like I knew it then,
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that after you had gone through a miscarriage, that you had felt like God had another child for our family.
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And so it didn't seem unexpected in that way because there seemed, I could see through you guys primarily,
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I could see that God had a hand in what was happening.
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And so it just seemed like the right thing.
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So then Josh was in our home and for him it was a huge change.
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He'd already been a year before taken from his mom because of neglect and some abuse that occurred
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and had been living with his grandparents who said they really weren't able to take care of him.
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And so for him it was a pretty big shock.
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And I don't know what you thought.
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I know that he was very unused to structured home life, like we ate dinner at a table.
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Oh yes, and we had a bedtime.
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And he went to school every single day and he was expected to do whatever homework had been sent home.
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He was quite behind in school at that time though, so that involved extra stuff.
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But he was there in our home and I don't know if you, I know you remember things later,
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but in that early first year or so, if you have any remembrances or thoughts about that.
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So I don't have a lot of clear memories, partially because I was a selfish teenager and had soccer.
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There were other things going on and I wasn't the one helping him with his homework and things like that.
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So there are things that I missed, certainly.
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So rationally I was feeling good about that time.
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This is the right thing to do. This is what we should do.
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And I think under the surface there was probably confusion more than anything
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because things were harder than I realized they would be.
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But I don't think I really took the time to acknowledge that in any real way above the surface that I could process that.
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But just that we're doing the right thing, so it's the right thing.
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But there were some differences in how he was raised to how we were raised.
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Just some, yes.
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It affected the family dynamic for sure.
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And so I didn't process a lot of those kinds of things until much later.
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But I did feel confused about the idea of doing the right thing and it being hard.
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Looking back, that was a shock to me.
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And that may have been because I was 11 going into more aware years too.
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Before things really had been fairly easy in a lot of ways, you do the right thing and then good things happen.
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I don't know. Good things happen, yes.
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It was more than, it wasn't just Josh, if that makes sense. It was me becoming more aware of that.
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So after three years of Josh as a foster child, which were challenging years,
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especially because of school and education,
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but they terminated his mother's rights and said, he's up for adoption. You have first choice.
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And there were mixed feelings.
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I was pretty sure that when God told me he was sending us a son, he didn't add for three years.
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And so in my mind, there was not a question, but we would say yes to that.
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Michelle said, she said, well, I don't know if I want to keep him because he's challenging.
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But she said, I don't want to ruin the rest of his life by rejecting him because that is the way Michelle would think.
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By now, she's 12 years old and already started her counseling ministry.
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And your dad had great reservations because he was taking a lot of time and attention.
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He's like, do we really have the kind of time and attention that he needs?
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Right. And so we had a little family meeting and everyone was expressing their thoughts.
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And then it was your turn. Do you remember what you said?
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I remember thinking and I feel like I'm just kind of saying the same thing over again that, of course, that's what we would do.
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Like, we started this. We're going to keep doing this.
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Why would we change what God's put in our path? Like, that's the rationale in my head was that's what I was thinking.
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OK. And that's basically what you said. You were a little more explicit in it.
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We just need to suffer gladly. I don't remember saying that, but that sounds like something I would say.
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The rest of us remember you're saying that.
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You added God sent him to us. We he must have things to teach us.
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And so Josh came to live with us permanently.
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He became actually our son and not just a foster son, and he became your brother.
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And I thought because, you know, he would be more secure, no more abandonment by the people who mattered in his life,
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but that we really cared about him and would be there for him.
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And so I thought the things that had been so challenging will settle down. Right.
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He went into middle school. And because he's basically two years behind in school, you know what sixth grade boys, how tall they are.
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And you know what eighth grade boys are like.
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And so even though he was in sixth grade in middle school, he towered over all the sixth graders.
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And he found out that there was great advantage to being bigger than everyone else.
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And so he began to do things that included bullying and getting money from the smaller children.
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But he also just began to make a lot of bad decisions because school was way beyond him.
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He still was not up to par for school. And he had a pretty strong ADD.
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He spent his life in alternative classroom. We had a conversation about that.
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We said, Josh, how many kids are in alternative classroom?
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He said, oh, every day about four or five or six.
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And we said, so Debbie, how many people do you know who have been in alternative classroom?
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And you didn't know anyone, I don't think. And Michelle did not know anyone who'd been there.
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And then we said, how many kids are there in school?
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Oh, and I think there were 2000, maybe 1200. I don't remember. It was over a thousand for sure.
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And so he began to get the picture. Maybe that wasn't the norm.
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But because of the background that he had and the life he'd lived,
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he found himself more comfortable with some of the kids who were always acting out
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and getting in trouble and making bad decisions.
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And so that did a couple of things. It put more stress on all of us because he was in trouble often.
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It put a lot more on me because I was the one who was mainly managing life with him.
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And I don't know, did you have thoughts? I know you were playing soccer much of the time
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in those years before you left for college.
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Like you said, it wasn't there a whole lot.
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And looking back, I don't know if I would have been there more or not.
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You know, if things had been different or whatever, I don't know that I would have been really.
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But like I do remember having you had asked earlier for some negatives and some positives.
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Some of our negatives were that I some of the friends that he would bring home,
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I didn't feel comfortable around. And when they were younger, it wasn't as big of a deal.
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But as they got older, there were some character issues that were concerning.
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Yes, there were. Like I got some stuff stolen.
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Like there was just always it didn't ever feel stable.
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Like there I knew what was going to me at the house, like who was going to be there,
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what the situation was going to be, you know, if Josh was going to be in trouble.
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So I think I probably pulled back some because of that.
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And just I don't remember thinking through any of that at the time, but I I definitely threw myself into school and soccer and,
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you know, eventually boyfriend in high school.
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And I I wish and I don't know if this was even possible.
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I wish Josh and I had had more of a relationship.
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And I don't know, you know, you can always say I wish things had been different, but we didn't.
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I think we grew up parts not together during those years.
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Well, it didn't help that he liked to tell on you if you were doing anything I should know.
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Well, right. He said, Debbie, you know, isn't the angel you think she is?
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And then he said, Michelle isn't either. Yeah.
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I said, you know, Josh, I probably know more than you think I do.
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So I remember one time you told me, said, why do you let him get away with so many things that that you wouldn't get away with
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that that you didn't agree with that he should be doing?
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And I said to you, I said, well, Debbie, Josh is doing so many things that are not what we would prefer that I could be after him all the time.
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Yeah. Telling him that he was wrong and misbehaving and doing inappropriate things.
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I said, so I have to choose what I'm going to work on and get after him.
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And so I choose the things that might save his life because that's the direction he was going.
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He joined a gang and there was no telling where that could lead.
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And so that was kind of hard. So here's a question I hadn't asked you before.
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When you went away to college, you we just Josh asked if he could have your room.
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And so we decided since the room that grandma had been in was now not being used,
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we fixed it up for you and let you move down there and Josh got your room.
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Yeah. But afterwards, I got the impression you weren't very happy about that.
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You don't remember? No, I'm sure I made some comment like that didn't take very long or something.
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I don't I don't remember really hearing that much.
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I think I was just a teenager and like wanted to say something like that.
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I don't remember caring that much. OK, I felt to me like you cared.
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OK. And so I was feeling guilty about it.
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But at the same time, it would have felt very bad to Josh if he had the tiny room and you had the big room.
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And we wouldn't let him go there. No. And I liked having my own space when I came home from college.
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It was a good setup. So yeah, I thought you would would think that that that would be good.
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So let's let's just think about your relationship or your perspective between me and Josh,
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because he did consume a great amount of my attention. And was that hard for you?
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Did you feel neglected or robbed or at the time?
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And this is my own personality.
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Like I I have had to work quite a bit in my adulthood on like recognizing feelings and processing them
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and like not trying to say that's a bad feeling, but just, you know, like there's things that I've learned to do
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that I just didn't know how to do then. And so I don't remember having negative feelings about it.
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Although I think that I think I probably did.
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But, you know, you asked a bunch of stuff really like what I thought about Josh coming to live with us
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and that I thought it was the right thing to do. And that really is a dominating feature for me personally,
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is if it's the right thing to do, that's what we do. And it's not like I really didn't think about my feelings at all about it.
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OK.
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Looking back, I see where maybe I had a feeling and instead of acknowledging it, I just probably stepped away further
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and didn't engage as much as probably what happens.
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So thinking then, because you've processed a lot more later.
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So you said that you really didn't think a lot about it when you were a teenager.
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But as you were away at college and as an adult, did have you been able to look back at that and see things that God was working into your life?
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Or teaching you?
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Definitely. As is coming out very clearly in this.
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I'm a pretty black and white person.
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I remember that.
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Right and wrong.
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And it really did. Especially as I was in college and could step away and see things a little more clearly maybe.
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It bothered me that I think like what you would call mercy, I would call enabling probably.
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And I don't. It was frustrating for me to see him get taken out of consequences.
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Although I do. Even at the time, I understood that he was getting himself into some pretty serious consequences.
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So you're really trying to help him move forward while in life.
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So even then I got that and I do get that now.
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But coming out on the other end, because at the time I could just see what was there then.
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And you and God were having all sorts of conversations about what was to come.
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And all I could see was right then.
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And I, you know, being the experienced parent that I was at the age of 20, I was just like, no, if I were doing it, I would do that differently.
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And I mean, probably you and I parent differently.
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But I see now extreme value for you continuing to engage with him and to help him make big decisions and to forgive him.
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There was there was a lot there that wasn't resonating with that I have seen God works through over these years.
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So when you look back now, what is your relationship with Josh now?
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I think it's a lot better now.
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I mean, there were still a lot of years into adulthood where it was it was kind of hard because there were he was moving towards making better decisions.
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But there were still some bad decisions being made.
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And it was just hard to walk a path in real relationship together.
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And I would picture I think in in recent years, that has changed a bit.
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And I think that we have some time to make up, probably.
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But it's been very good in recent years.
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So now that you have five children, including three boys.
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Yeah. Right.
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And the four boys, I know, but the teenagers that are a lot in the age that we're going through the challenges with Josh, especially though they did go on until he was about 28.
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But what are some things maybe that impacted you, especially as you look back on it, that have helped you as a parent?
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I think it has given me a good perspective on how bad things can be.
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And I'm not even talking about Josh, really, because it was more his friends.
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I Josh, I think, had a lot of difficulties that weren't even his fault, but had to do with when he was like when his mom was pregnant with him.
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Like he just there were some difficulties in decision making that just it's not it's not even his fault.
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Right. It's not.
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And truly, he has always had a gentle spirit and a kind heart.
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He has, hasn't he?
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Yes, he has.
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I've never I've never felt unsafe, even when he was having his most difficult times.
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I've never felt unsafe around him.
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And there's never been like a breach in a relationship like that at all.
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But he had some friends who I wouldn't say the same things.
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And so just having the perspective that I don't think I would have had the experience with just people who who aren't always like don't always deserve the doubt.
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But
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it has been good for me to see the whole spectrum, I think.
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I think if I had grown up, I mean, we grew up in a little bit of a bubble.
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Oh, yes, we did.
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A little bit of a Christian bubble.
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You did.
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And my ideas of like if you do the right thing, then things will go well is not accurate.
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It's not what God promised.
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And it's and it was very evident that like that's not necessarily true.
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Things can be hard, even if you're doing the right thing and maybe especially if you're doing.
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And so I think moving forward with that knowledge, it gives me a lot of grace for my own kids.
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And it also gives me a down the line.
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Like if you do this, then this will be the consequence, but it's a it's not a just behave right kind of thing.
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It's like there's reasons why we have these rules.
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But I think that I would have been much more behavior focused and I am much more focused with my own kids.
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That makes me happy.
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But I watch you with them and and you have great relationship with them.
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And that's one of the things that I talk about on this podcast all the time is you maintain relationship.
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And when you focus so much on behavior and choices and consequences, therefore, for those things,
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as opposed to how do we work together, how do we help the child?
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And so that's an encouraging thing because you do a beautiful job with your kids.
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You know, they're really good kids.
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I like them. I like them, too.
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I think they like me, too.
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They're wonderful.
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And but so one of the things I think that was really telling was when your dad was in the hospital and Josh was there.
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And first of all, that was probably the most mature and adult that you'd seen him up close,
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because usually the visits were just family get togethers and lots of kids.
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Yes. So did you get to communicate with him some then?
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Because you all were he was there a lot and you were there the whole time.
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So I I definitely think and this is I mean, I wouldn't have wanted this, obviously.
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But the time that we all spent together in dad's last days there were the closest I think we've ever been.
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Yeah, I agree with that.
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And in a in a real way that I I think I've always wanted.
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And it hasn't it's been growing towards that.
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But it was it was a very beautiful time with family.
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And I'm sorry, it was a beautiful time with family.
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And one of the things I asked the Lord after dad had moved on to heaven, I said, So why did he have to go now?
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And he said to be kind to him.
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And I said, Did we wait too long?
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Because 10 days is a long time and I see you. And the Lord said, What happened with the family?
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And I just it was such a sweet time with you and Michelle and Josh and dad's brother, Brad, for us to be together.
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And so for me, it's joy to think that the challenges that we went through.
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And I know just what you said, your preferred black and white approach to things at that time that I was way too merciful or lenient with Josh.
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And yet to see where he's come and see the work God's done in each of our lives.
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And so that was a very special time that maybe made up for some of the hard times.
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I was personally very impacted by Josh's wisdom and maturity that he showed during that time and his willingness to engage with the medical personnel and ask some questions.
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And those were all such a contrast to what he had been when he was younger.
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And so any other thoughts on just how God took this child who'd been so wounded, brought him into our family, took us all through challenges and yet to see what a person, a man that he has become.
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Any other thoughts on that?
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I mean, watching you walk through it and watching your relationship with the Lord, that you were very open about how it was hard, but that God was being very clear with you was a testimony to how I would like to hear it.
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That I would be leaning into the Lord for wisdom and strengths.
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So there's definitely that. I think also for your listeners, maybe this is an eye opener for me that I gave up before God did.
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Like I just didn't think Josh was going to make the choices that he needed to move forward well in life.
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And God had given up on him and you had given up on him.
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And I'm so glad it took a long time.
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It did take a long time.
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And so I think it's easy for people to give up because it's hard.
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But I'm also thankful that God didn't give up on me.
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Well, your time was shorter.
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But yeah, I think that's really true that God is, well, of course, God knows the end.
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And we don't. But he's patient with us and all of us have growing to do.
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And he just is willing to keep after us and keep loving us no matter what and giving grace and mercy, two of his favorite words in Scripture, grace and mercy.
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And so it's for me, it helps me in my relationships with other people.
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I hopefully learned some things from Josh, even as the parent of two wonderful daughters who had their own challenges, but for sure.
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And so I learned an awful lot from our relationship with Josh that has been impactful to me.
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I learned an awful lot about giving thanks to God.
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He kept telling me, say thank you, say thank you.
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And when I watch you and Michelle as parents, you all do such a beautiful job.
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So I'd like to get a little credit for maybe you had good parenting, but maybe you also learned.
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You get some credit.
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But maybe you also learned watching the things not to do because we didn't do that all perfectly.
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I certainly didn't and probably one of my greatest regrets is that Josh took my attention away from you all, from you and Michelle and from dad.
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And so that was to varying degrees hurtful.
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And yet what a beautiful thing to see how God brought us back together in a sense.
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Now he already had been.
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And every time you and your kids would come here, we'd go out to his farm.
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And that seemed positive.
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And he was thrilled that that would happen.
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So the whole learning of patience and learning how God deals with us has been important for me.
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And if you were to share anything else with our listeners, what might it be?
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What kind of thing do you think has been a real benefit to you for having lived through those harder years?
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I really do think that the way that I look at the world was challenged and that God works in our mess.
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And I think my my need to do things right may have stemmed a little bit from thinking that God couldn't work with me messy.
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And so I think that that has been a green thing to see that God can make really hard situations and turn them into something beautiful.
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And, you know, like my my situation didn't start hard like his did.
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Like it's a very different scenario that that's not afraid of our mess, that there's a redemption story.
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One last thought.
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So what's a benefit to your children that Josh was in your life?
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I mean, it's probably good that I had a boy in my house.
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OK, that's good.
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Because I have four boys now and I think if it had just been Michelle and I, I would have been much more surprised by a lot of things.
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Josh and his friends.
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Yeah.
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The energy is is different, the interactions are different, and so I think just that is a benefit.
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But again, I just I think that they benefit because I care more about heart than behavior.
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OK, that's that I really that's good.
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I'm glad for you to repeat that, because I think that might be the biggest takeaway for our listeners.
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That it's not just behavior.
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Behavior matters.
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But again, the heart and the love and the relationship matter even more.
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So it causes you to have different ways to deal with behavior that have a little more grace and mercy in them, but still have good boundaries and consequences.
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Any last words you have?
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I don't know if this came across at the beginning, because I just kind of have a dry way of saying things, but I am very happy that Josh is part of our family.
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I certainly, you know, looking back with my adult more maturity, at least than I had before, I wish that I could have done things differently to build that relationship.
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But I'm very glad that God brought Josh to our lives.
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Me too.
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And you too.
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I'm so glad.
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Thanks, sweetheart.
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Thank you for being willing to share and remember, draw out some memories that you hadn't had to think about.
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And your willingness to think deeply and to be honest.
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So thank you for that.
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And to my listeners, I hope that this will be helpful to you as you think of how you deal with someone who's just given you a lot of trouble or making you making some really hard or sad decisions that you need to deal with.
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And I'm trusting that you wrote some thoughts down.
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So you'll remember and maybe your memories not as bad as mine.
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But why don't you tell a friend also if you enjoyed this episode today and this very informal conversation that Debbie and I have had.
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Next week, we are going to start a series on mercy.
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And some of you are like, you can talk about mercy for a whole series or you don't think you really want to be giving much mercy.
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But, you know, our God is an incredible mercy giver.
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And so we're just going to look at some of the times and the ways and the people who receive mercy from God that will hopefully impact our lives.
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God bless you.
