End It for Good with Christina Dent

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Welcome, welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal

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podcast. If you love a prodigal, you can discover

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help and hope for your wilderness journey right

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here at When You Love a Prodigal. And also help

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and hope for your own life journey. And today

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we have a very special guest who I think is going

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to give you a lot of help and hope. Christina

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Dent. has an unusual ministry. She's the founder

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and the vice president of mission for End It

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For Good. Now that sounds good, doesn't it? End

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It For Good. I like that. She's a speaker who

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did a talk with TEDx that has really helped to

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spark the movement of End It For Good. She is

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a writer. She's been featured in publications

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like Real Clear Policy in USA Today and the author

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of a new book called Curious, A Foster Mom's

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Discovery of an Unexpected Solution to Drugs

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and Addiction. After fostering a son of an addicted

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mom, That sounds so familiar to me. We have more

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in common than I realized. She didn't care for

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the advice she was given on how you walk through

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this hard journey. And God just led her to some

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other perspectives and other opportunities. And

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End It For All was recently named. a top nonprofit

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in Mississippi where it's based. And they are

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holding, hosting, presenting to different groups

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and people and opportunities about the things

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that they've discovered. And we're going to talk

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about them for you. And at the end, we will also

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let you know how you can get more information.

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So, Christina, you yourself. Don't have a history

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of drugs and alcohol. So how did you get interested

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enough in this topic, in this issue, that you

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started a nonprofit and wrote a book? That's

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not something you do if you haven't experienced

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it yourself, usually. Yeah. So thanks so much

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for having me on the podcast. I was so pleased

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to get to connect with you. I told you my son

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is going on a mission trip with crew this summer

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in just a couple of weeks. And so I'm just so

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thankful for the ministry and your ministry with

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the podcast and with many other parents who are

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walking through really challenging times with

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their kids. Yeah, I always feel a little bit

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of. imposter syndrome because I haven't dealt

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with addiction personally I have kind of recent

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teenage children's have not walked through that

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with a with a child or a loved one and yet I

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think All of us are impacted in different ways

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and we all find different entry points to how

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this issue impacts us because almost every family

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in America today is impacted in some way by substance

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use and particularly substance addiction. So

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I grew up in Mississippi, born and raised here

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my whole life. I've never lived outside of Mississippi

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still. I'm in my early 40s now. And I grew up

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in a wonderful Christian family, wonderful church

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community. We were at church. All the time, twice

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on Sundays, on Wednesdays, I babysat for the

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Thursday ladies Bible study. We were back there

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on Saturdays playing basketball in the gym with

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our friends while my parents oversaw and served

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as chaperones. So the church was my life revolved

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around our church community. And that was a really

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positive experience for me. Yes. Yeah. So that

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was a great thing for me. I was not exposed to

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substance use in high school or college. I went

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to a Christian liberal arts university. I have

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a degree in Bible. It just was not part of my

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world. I just didn't have any interest. And so

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I kind of grew up with what I think a lot of

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people in my generation grew up with, which was

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in the 80s and 90s, it was all about tough. There's

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a way to live, and if you just act right and

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behave, things are going to go well for you.

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And people who use drugs are... people who don't

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have a moral compass. You know, they are character,

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they're lacking in character. And I just kind

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of absorbed that from the culture around me and

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didn't question that. I was also very good at

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following all of the rules of kind of the evangelical

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Christian. ecosystem. And so I felt especially

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good about myself. I was good. You know, this

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was come on, people just, you know, there's it's

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obvious how you succeed in this world. If you

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just do that, then things will go well for you.

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And how easy it is then to look down on or at

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least Yes, yeah, it's I understand. Yeah. So

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I, I felt like Was doing the right things and

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things were going well for me and if everybody

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else could just get their act together Things

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would go well for them as well And so it really

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was It wasn't until I was in my early 30s and

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my husband and I became foster parents that How

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did that happen? Yeah, so I got married when

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I was 21. And my husband and I, the first year

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we were married, we just had this random conversation

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of, hey, I think we'd like to adopt one day.

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That was the extent of the conversation. One

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of us said it. The other one said, yeah, that

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sounds good to me. I'd like to as well. We didn't

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talk anymore about it. We had two children by

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birth over the next couple of years. And then

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we started talking about it again. By that point,

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I had talked with enough adoptive parents to

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know that, you know, it's important. kind of

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what you go into this with. You don't bring a

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child into your home as a blank slate. It doesn't

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matter if you have all the love in the world.

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Even if they come to you at birth, you are coming

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with a child who was born into a different family

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and a different genetic DNA and different how

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they experience that adoption is going to be

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different for every child. And so we wanted to

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be really aware and not just sort of pick a country,

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you know, with no connection to the culture and

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understanding kind of, you know, how can we bring

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that culture into our home to connect them to

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who they were, where they were born. So we decided

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to foster really as sort of a holding pattern

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while we kind of figured this adoption thing

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out. We thought, well, we'll just foster and

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see what happens. So you researched? Yeah, so

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I did. I love a good research, which will not

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surprise you as we get talking more. My mom,

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I was homeschooled, kindergarten through high

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school. And so my mom was kind of this, you know,

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you want to learn something, you dive in, you

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go get all the books from the library, and you

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really... You really learn. She was a very curious

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person. And so I inherited that from her and

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wanted to do the due diligence of learning about

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this. And so we decided to foster. And through

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one of the foster... conferences that we went

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to is where I started to learn about childhood

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trauma about adverse childhood experiences how

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that impacts children from the womb not just

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from cognitive memory yes from the womb yes and

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I had no idea I mean my mind was blown you know

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I was 30 by this time I had no idea I still I

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had This concept that we should respect where

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a child has come from, but no idea that actually

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all of those experiences from conception onward

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deeply impact a child in so many different ways

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throughout the course of their life. So that

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conference really helped me to see, whoa, this

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is a really much bigger and deeper thing than

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I thought it was. And you really had then no

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one? You don't have any right to have an expectation

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almost because everyone is going to be different.

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And what they bring in, even from birth, but

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especially then as they're older, it's an unknown

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and unpredictable. Yeah. You know, Judy, it always

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surprises people to hear that. When they hear

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me talk about, so our youngest son now is adopted.

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He's not the child who started the kind of the

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whole story I'll talk about of meeting this,

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the birth mother of one of our foster sons. But

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a different foster son ended up becoming our

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youngest son. And to talk about people with,

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you know, that he really misses his birth family,

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feels that loss deeply, even though he's been

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with us since he was an infant. And people are

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shocked. They think, well, but you're all he's

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ever known. But that we know the human body and

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mind, that's not all that his body and mind have

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known. As they say, the body keeps score. Yes,

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yes. And that sense of place and belonging and,

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you know, questions and desire. and wish wishing

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that things could have been different he feels

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that deeply I feel that deeply for him it really

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impacts everybody differently but it deeply impacts

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people and so that that was the beginning for

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me of starting to realize I didn't quite know

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everything about children I still thought I knew

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everything about addiction. And that changed

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when I met Joanne, who is the mother of our second

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foster son. Joanne. And she had struggled with

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addiction her whole life since she was an early

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teen. So by the time I met her, that was about

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20 years of using. She could not stop that drug

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use during her pregnancy. She wanted to. She

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was so happy to be pregnant, but could not beat

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that addiction during her pregnancy. And so her

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son was taken into state custody after his birth

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because of her prenatal. Right away then. Yeah.

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So she got to he was born about six weeks early.

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So she got to spend some time with him in the

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NICU before he was. taken away but as soon as

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he was released from the hospital he was released

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into the care of a social worker who brought

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him straight to our house and he was at our house

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20 minutes later and where was he then so he

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came from the NICU basically straight to us and

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he came and became our foster son I knew that

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he had been removed because of substance use

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by his mom. I didn't have any concept of how

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a mother who loved her child could use drugs

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while she was pregnant. That did not go together

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to me. So, of course, I put that into my understanding,

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which is, well, then she must not really love

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her son or she wouldn't have done this. So I

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took him about three days after he came to. live

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with us and I took him for his first visit with

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her at the child welfare office and I pulled

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into the parking lot and I got out of the car

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and popped his car seat out and he's just this

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tiny little five pound nine ounce preemie still

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and turned around and here comes this woman running

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across the parking lot towards me crying And

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she runs over and just starts kissing him, talking

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to him while I'm holding his car seat. And this

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is my first meeting of his mom, which I receive

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with confusion and suspicion. This doesn't fit

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what I think. Was she faking this? Yes. Was this

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real? Yes. And how is it even possible? Yeah,

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it didn't fit at all with anything that I had

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grown up. hearing about someone struggling with

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addiction. Certainly a mother who was using while

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she was pregnant, that was kind of a next level

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of stigmatized behavior. And so I went in and

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she had her one hour of visitation with him.

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I came back to pick him up and walked in the

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visitation room. And I can still see her sitting

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right on that couch with him up on her shoulder

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sleeping. And she was just sitting there, not

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on her phone. She was just sitting there with

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her eyes closed, just drinking in this one hour

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that she got to spend with him. Were you able?

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Then continue where she got to have time with

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him some, even if you or the social worker were

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there. So she had that one visit, and then she

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went to inpatient drug treatment about two and

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a half hours away. And she had found a drug treatment

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center in Mississippi, there's only two of them,

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that has on -site child care for... young children

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of parents who are in treatment. I had never

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heard of that. I thought it sounded crazy. Now

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I think it's amazing because of how, you know,

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she'll say today, we continue to stay in touch.

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And this was 10 years ago now. She will say that

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waking up with my son next to me was my constant

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motivation every morning that it was worth it.

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It's worth it to get up and go through these

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cravings. It's worth it to go through trauma

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therapy. It's worth it to attend all the classes

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and to push through and keep going because this

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is who I'm doing this for. I can see him. I can

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bond with him. I can parent him. and put those

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new skills into practice while she has the support

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around her of being in treatment was a really

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crucial thing also you know sometimes we remove

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someone to treatment and they may do well while

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they're there and then we put them back into

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a living environment with all of the stressors

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that life has with no support how can we expect

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success from that that is really difficult so

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she went there and it was about a month before

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he was able to join her there and so she would

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call me every day from treatment every day yep

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they normally are not allowed to make phone calls

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from treatment but they had said she could call

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once a day and get an update on him and so she

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called me every day and got any little bit of

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information i could tell her about him and then

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she would ask me to put her on speakerphone and

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she would sing to him over the phone and I can

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just be standing in my kitchen holding my phone,

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and Beckham, her son, this tiny baby, is sitting

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in his little bouncy seat in my kitchen with

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her voice singing Jesus Loves Me over the phone

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to him. This is a beautiful story. It was incredible.

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So it's beautiful now. At the time, it felt incredibly

00:16:28.789 --> 00:16:32.309
disconcerting. Like, what is happening here?

00:16:32.429 --> 00:16:35.929
This is not what I expect. She is not what I

00:16:35.929 --> 00:16:39.929
expect. And I have to do something with that.

00:16:40.309 --> 00:16:44.450
Either I have to believe that it's all a lie,

00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:47.009
and I couldn't do that, because the more I got

00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:49.840
to know her, the more I saw. Clearly, this is

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.059
a mom just like me who loves her son just as

00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:58.360
much as I love my sons. And in many ways is more

00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.299
vulnerable than I think I would be willing to

00:17:01.299 --> 00:17:05.180
be in her situation. Just so willing to let me

00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:09.920
in to her life and her love for her son in ways

00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.359
that were just felt like I was being ushered

00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.259
onto sacred ground and trusted with this deep.

00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.319
bond and connection between a mother and a child

00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.720
but that that was challenging because if I wasn't

00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.940
going to believe that she was making it all up

00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:31.380
then I had to reckon with I am wrong about the

00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:34.619
way that i have perceived addiction people struggling

00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:37.420
with it mother struggling with it like what is

00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:40.299
going on here if it's not you know what i had

00:17:40.299 --> 00:17:43.000
grown up with was well she's she's addicted because

00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.119
she doesn't have any moral compass and she doesn't

00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.519
care about anyone but herself and she's has a

00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:51.319
defective character and what i was seeing was

00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.420
a mother who was Overcoming insurmountable mountains

00:17:55.420 --> 00:17:58.599
every day to stay sober, to connect with her

00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:02.519
child, to be there, to and in many ways working

00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.660
much harder than I was to live a life and to

00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:11.009
be present for. her son. And so that was what

00:18:11.009 --> 00:18:13.589
led me on the beginning of my own learning journey

00:18:13.589 --> 00:18:17.210
of just reckoning with, I think I've been wrong.

00:18:17.410 --> 00:18:20.849
I'm not sure in what ways yet, but I have clearly

00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:23.690
misunderstood what's actually happening when

00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:25.569
someone's struggling with an addiction, because

00:18:25.569 --> 00:18:28.210
this is not a terrible person who doesn't care.

00:18:28.529 --> 00:18:31.549
This is a mom like me who is struggling with

00:18:31.549 --> 00:18:35.289
a really complex health crisis. And what can

00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:39.869
we do to help her? come back to the end of that

00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:43.829
story or the where it is but so then what did

00:18:43.829 --> 00:18:47.789
that cause you to start doing? I channeled my

00:18:47.789 --> 00:18:51.190
inner mother of mine and started reading books

00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:53.809
and talking to people and trying to figure out

00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:57.089
what is it that we have misunderstood because

00:18:57.089 --> 00:19:01.269
I knew you know in foster care about half the

00:19:01.269 --> 00:19:05.220
kids in foster care across the U .S. and in Mississippi,

00:19:05.420 --> 00:19:07.759
where I'm from, are there for some sort of drug

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:12.059
-related reason. So the more I started pondering

00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:15.480
this, the more I thought, you know, if we have

00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.420
misunderstood something about this issue and

00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:20.680
we're applying the wrong solutions because of

00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.400
it, then if we could change some of that to more

00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.799
effective responses, we could significantly impact

00:19:29.369 --> 00:19:32.190
lots more children in foster care than just one.

00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:35.109
It could have a ripple effect to thousands and

00:19:35.109 --> 00:19:37.829
thousands of families because so many children

00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:41.049
in foster care are there because of some drug

00:19:41.049 --> 00:19:44.049
-related reason. So that started my learning

00:19:44.049 --> 00:19:50.009
journey. Yeah, and that was a big, it felt like

00:19:50.009 --> 00:19:53.150
kind of a strapping in for a rocket ride into

00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:55.950
space as I learned. I felt like everything I

00:19:55.950 --> 00:20:02.480
was learning was Taking bricks out of this framework

00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.980
that I had grown up believing and it did not

00:20:05.980 --> 00:20:08.180
feel like a great adventure. It didn't feel like

00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:11.019
a wonderful learning journey. It felt incredibly

00:20:11.019 --> 00:20:18.019
uncomfortable, deeply convicting and very disorienting.

00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:21.700
You know, the process from kind of. thinking

00:20:21.700 --> 00:20:23.839
we've been wrong about something to actually

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.279
kind of developing a new framework, that in -between

00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.799
space is really uncomfortable. And I definitely

00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:34.759
experienced that. I can talk about it now with

00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:37.660
confidence. That's not how I felt during the

00:20:37.660 --> 00:20:41.059
year and a half that I spent learning and reading

00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:45.170
and trying to put together. What is true about

00:20:45.170 --> 00:20:48.109
substance use and how could we better respond

00:20:48.109 --> 00:20:50.950
to it to help people like Beckham and Joanne?

00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:55.250
So in your book, Curious, which we'll talk about

00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:57.569
a couple of times, I think, but you mentioned

00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:02.410
an experiment called Rat Park. What is that and

00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:07.190
how is it a help to you to understand addiction

00:21:07.190 --> 00:21:10.160
more? Yeah, this is one of my favorite examples

00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:14.400
because when we're trying to get our minds around

00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.440
a different way of thinking, it's really helpful

00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.440
to have something concrete rather than just an

00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.759
idea. So in the 1970s, there was a researcher.

00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:27.279
He was a young researcher at the time, just out

00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.279
of school, named Dr. Bruce Alexander. And he

00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.000
was assigned to work at an addiction clinic.

00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:36.339
He did not want to work there. He thought of

00:21:36.339 --> 00:21:39.240
people struggling with addiction as liars and

00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.859
thieves and not people he wanted to be around.

00:21:42.339 --> 00:21:44.859
But he was assigned there as part of his kind

00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:50.450
of work in schooling. And he was also teaching

00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:53.630
as a graduate student at a university. And so

00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:56.309
he was hearing from graduate students and he

00:21:56.309 --> 00:21:59.329
was hearing from people who were lived experience

00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:03.190
right now struggling with addiction. And what

00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:05.750
he was hearing were very different stories about

00:22:05.750 --> 00:22:08.890
why people use drugs. The people he was talking

00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:12.670
to at the clinic, he said, you know, I listened

00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:15.650
to their stories and I would think, man, if I

00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:18.339
lived. If I had lived their story, I would be

00:22:18.339 --> 00:22:22.299
using two because, wow, they have been through

00:22:22.299 --> 00:22:25.279
incredibly difficult things in their life that

00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:29.259
are really hard to hold without some way to numb

00:22:29.259 --> 00:22:33.000
the pain from those experiences. But his students

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.839
kept saying, no, no, what they're telling you

00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.319
is not true. They're lying. It's not their experiences

00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.660
that are the driver of. those addictions. It's

00:22:43.660 --> 00:22:46.839
the drugs themselves. And they based that on

00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:50.220
a experiment that I remember actually seeing

00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.380
video footage of when I was growing up, which

00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.680
is you put a rat in this little cage by itself

00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.940
and you give it two options. It can drink plain

00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:03.900
water or it can drink drug -laced water. They

00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:06.559
observed the rat. It almost always chose the

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.319
drug -laced water. Sometimes it would drink so

00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.859
much of it that it would overdose and die. And

00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:15.859
the student said, look, Dr. Alexander, this has

00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.579
already been proven. You know, you just give

00:23:18.579 --> 00:23:22.720
rats an opportunity to take drugs and they just,

00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.960
it's uncontrollable. And he looked at that and

00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.980
he thought, well. We know that rats, like people,

00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.980
are incredibly social. I wonder what would happen

00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:37.619
if we put a rat in an environment where it was

00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:40.559
more comfortable. It's not comfortable in a cage

00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.099
with nothing to do being isolated. That's like

00:23:43.099 --> 00:23:46.420
solitary confinement for humans. We know that

00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:50.539
that produces some pretty serious health and

00:23:50.539 --> 00:23:52.500
mental health challenges for people in isolation.

00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.660
So he and some of his colleagues built what they

00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.319
called Rat Park on the bottom floor of their,

00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:03.019
down in the basement of one of their research

00:24:03.019 --> 00:24:06.119
buildings. And they put sawdust on the floor.

00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:08.960
They put lots of rats in this large enclosure.

00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:11.920
They gave them toys to play with. There's good

00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:16.480
food to eat. Everything that would be like a

00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.900
rat park. And they put the rats in there, again,

00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:23.539
with the plain water and with the drug -laced

00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:27.059
water. And in that environment, the rats almost

00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:30.640
never chose the drug -laced water. And if they

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.519
chose it, they never used it compulsively. They

00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:38.819
never used it in excess. And they published the

00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:42.059
findings of this and were met with incredible

00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:47.289
backlash. It challenged everything that... Everyone

00:24:47.289 --> 00:24:49.490
at the time and still largely today believes

00:24:49.490 --> 00:24:52.549
about drugs, which is that the drug is the powerful

00:24:52.549 --> 00:24:57.369
actor here. And if anyone takes the drug, that's

00:24:57.369 --> 00:25:00.130
what leads to addiction. And Dr. Alexander has

00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:03.450
then spent 50 years of career, and he's retired

00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:11.390
now, exploring that question. If the drugs are

00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:16.339
not the primary driver, then the context of a

00:25:16.339 --> 00:25:19.019
person's life, is that the thing that actually

00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:25.599
is much more likely to be the reason why people

00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.059
would use substances to begin with, but would

00:25:29.059 --> 00:25:32.140
use them compulsively, even when they're experiencing

00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:35.299
a lot of harm from that. And that was kind of

00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:40.130
the thesis that he worked from. treated many,

00:25:40.230 --> 00:25:42.289
many people over the course of his career, spoke

00:25:42.289 --> 00:25:46.650
all over the world doing research on this question,

00:25:46.769 --> 00:25:50.359
and that answer always came back the same. which

00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.599
is it is not nearly so much the drug as it is

00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:58.480
the context of a person's life, which doesn't

00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.559
mean that everyone who struggles with addiction

00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.859
has had a terrible life. You know, one of the

00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:07.640
things that we did at End It For Good, a lot

00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.259
of in our early days, was open public events

00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:12.359
where we would come, we would give a presentation,

00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.740
and we would pass a microphone around the room

00:26:14.740 --> 00:26:17.250
and ask people for their feedback. And I remember

00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:21.579
one man, he was probably in his mid -20s. And

00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:24.440
he stood up and he introduced himself during

00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.700
his time to give feedback. And he said, this

00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:31.660
makes so much sense to me. He said, my problem

00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:34.119
substance use happened when I moved to a new

00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.180
city. I didn't have any friends. I was really

00:26:37.180 --> 00:26:41.839
lonely. And that substance use became compulsive

00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.799
and problematic. So even something like that,

00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.259
it doesn't have to be that you have. had a really

00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:52.420
traumatic childhood or were abused all the time.

00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:55.759
There are many human experiences that happen

00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.839
to us where we feel there's vulnerabilities there

00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:05.240
for filling those gaps in our life with substances

00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:07.900
that can take the edge off of uncomfortable feelings

00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:13.579
and experiences. Wow. So then all of a sudden

00:27:13.579 --> 00:27:19.380
you find yourself not being a trained person

00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:23.779
who investigates things like that, that God has

00:27:23.779 --> 00:27:27.579
opened a door for you to really pursue that.

00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:34.220
And how did you keep going and how were you accepted

00:27:34.220 --> 00:27:38.039
as you started to reach out more and look for

00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:43.190
some different views? Yeah. I would say that

00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:47.829
the biggest way that my mindset shifted was in

00:27:47.829 --> 00:27:52.150
thinking of drug use and addiction as primarily

00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:55.890
a moral issue to thinking of it as a health issue.

00:27:56.789 --> 00:28:00.759
A change that came along with that was going

00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:05.140
from supporting a criminal justice primary approach

00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:08.519
to substance use to a public health -centered

00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.480
approach to substance use. So kind of this substance

00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:16.940
use as a criminal justice and moral problem to

00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:21.599
substance use as a complex health crisis that

00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:26.240
needs complex tools to help people heal instead

00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.880
of punishment to make them act better. So that

00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.119
was kind of the shift that I found happening.

00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:35.920
And part of what happened with that shift was

00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:42.539
a shift away from being more committed to sort

00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:47.920
of an ideological stance on it. to becoming more

00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.480
interested in what actually works, like pragmatically,

00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.319
how do we actually keep more people alive? How

00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:56.279
do we help them be healthier? How do we help

00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.180
more families not have such a destructive experience

00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:02.940
of addiction with their loved one? Instead of

00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:04.799
just saying, well, they shouldn't have done it.

00:29:04.900 --> 00:29:08.119
Well, it's their own fault. Well, I mean, I think

00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.319
that's well, sure. Sure. They shouldn't have

00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:13.700
done it. Clearly, it did not turn out well. But

00:29:13.700 --> 00:29:16.180
that doesn't let us off the hook to just go willy

00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:19.880
nilly with our whether it's policy or cultural

00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.400
responses just to say, well, we don't have any

00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.579
responsibility. All of us have responsibility

00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:28.460
for the way that. that we respond in our world

00:29:28.460 --> 00:29:31.039
for the policies we support, for the ways that

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:34.160
we treat other people. Those are things we're

00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.500
responsible for. And so I really wanted to invite

00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:40.200
other people into this conversation. I felt like...

00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.599
I changed my mind when I learned new information.

00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:49.519
I did not change my values. I learned new information

00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.720
that helped me see a better way to live out my

00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.039
values, a way that I feel like is more consistent

00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.039
with how I see the world as a Christian who sees

00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.720
every person as made in God's image, who wants

00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:06.079
people to be thriving in their families and parents

00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.279
able to raise their children and children engaged

00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:14.539
with their families. So I started hosting discussion

00:30:14.539 --> 00:30:19.559
events, and those were very popular. People were

00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:21.940
really interested in finding better solutions.

00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:25.500
They had seen how poorly the current solutions

00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:30.000
work. And how did you get platform to say these

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:35.799
things? I had done a lot of lay ministry leadership

00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:39.759
over the first 10 years of my adulthood. And

00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.700
through that, I had learned there's just a lot

00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.640
of power in grinding it out of like just kind

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:46.900
of guerrilla marketing. You just email a bunch

00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:49.299
of people and say, hey, I'm doing this thing.

00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.819
So I basically found everyone who had ever commented

00:30:52.819 --> 00:30:55.380
on a Facebook post of mine that was on this issue.

00:30:55.769 --> 00:30:57.789
And like sent them a direct message and said,

00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:00.410
hey, we're hosting this, you know, we're going

00:31:00.410 --> 00:31:02.630
to gather at this restaurant in the side room

00:31:02.630 --> 00:31:05.490
and talk about this. You want to come? So there

00:31:05.490 --> 00:31:07.829
were 12 people that came to that first event.

00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:12.150
Then I did another one. Now I say event. It really

00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:14.529
like there was nobody paid anything. I didn't

00:31:14.529 --> 00:31:16.430
pay anything. We all just got our own meal at

00:31:16.430 --> 00:31:18.289
a restaurant and sat in a side room and talked.

00:31:20.439 --> 00:31:23.240
It was so successful and people were so energized

00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:25.759
by that that I decided to host another one a

00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.720
couple months later. We had 25 people that came

00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.619
to that. We had to move to a different restaurant

00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:33.839
for that. The third one, there were 50 people

00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.680
that came to it. Now, by that one, I did not

00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:39.119
know most of the people who were there. They

00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.640
had heard about it from someone else. that were

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.759
interested in coming. And at that point, we were

00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.559
reading a book together called Chasing the Scream.

00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.200
It's kind of the last hundred years of what we've

00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.259
done with drugs in the U .S. and around the world,

00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:57.059
and it's a compelling resource. So that gave

00:31:57.059 --> 00:32:02.250
us kind of a common... something to discuss together,

00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:04.950
common experience. We read the book and discussed

00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:09.730
the ideas in it. And then that continued, continued

00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:12.750
hosting. I had a dad who lost his son to an overdose

00:32:12.750 --> 00:32:15.890
and he reached out. He had heard about the discussions,

00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:18.630
but he lived in a city two hours south of Jackson

00:32:18.630 --> 00:32:20.990
where I live. And he said, will you come and

00:32:20.990 --> 00:32:24.670
host one in Hattiesburg where I am? And I said,

00:32:24.710 --> 00:32:27.029
well, I don't know anybody in Hattiesburg, so

00:32:27.029 --> 00:32:29.970
nobody's going to come because I You know, this

00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:33.029
is me at this time. I'm a stay at home mom. I

00:32:33.029 --> 00:32:35.390
don't there's no reason for them to come and

00:32:35.390 --> 00:32:37.869
listen to this, you know, participate in this

00:32:37.869 --> 00:32:40.049
discussion. And he said, well, if you'll come

00:32:40.049 --> 00:32:42.750
down and lead it, I'll fill the room with people

00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:45.670
because I know a lot of people here. And he had

00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:48.549
been, you know, very involved in the community

00:32:48.549 --> 00:32:51.809
there for 30 years. And sure enough. So we found

00:32:51.809 --> 00:32:54.990
another restaurant and it was packed out with

00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:57.029
people. So were most of these people who were

00:32:57.029 --> 00:33:01.569
coming? people who were unhappy with the way

00:33:01.569 --> 00:33:04.910
things were being done to deal with addiction?

00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:08.890
Or were they ones who just who thought that's

00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:12.210
all you could do and were just wanted to hear

00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:15.950
what else was possible? Yeah, it was a really

00:33:15.950 --> 00:33:20.430
beautiful mix of people. So let's use that one

00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:22.509
in Hattiesburg as an example, because he was

00:33:22.509 --> 00:33:24.650
the one that invited all the people to it. There

00:33:24.650 --> 00:33:26.930
were people there in law enforcement. people

00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:29.970
that were like attorneys more white -collar professions

00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:32.509
there were people there at that particular one

00:33:32.509 --> 00:33:35.890
we had a man who's now a sheriff in Mississippi

00:33:35.890 --> 00:33:39.930
sitting right next to a woman who publicly told

00:33:39.930 --> 00:33:42.730
everyone during her feedback time that she had

00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:46.769
was using marijuana to cope with the trauma of

00:33:46.769 --> 00:33:48.890
being in a car accident where she survived and

00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:53.029
her mother was killed so you know you've got

00:33:53.029 --> 00:33:55.799
one Here is a law enforcement officer who is,

00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:58.519
at the time there was no legal marijuana in Mississippi,

00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:02.599
and a woman saying, this is what I'm doing to

00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:06.579
cope with life. So it was just a broad range

00:34:06.579 --> 00:34:08.760
of people. Some people there for professional

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.659
interest, some for personal interest, some who

00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:15.920
were in recovery, some who... had loved ones

00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:17.639
who were struggling with addiction and they were

00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.500
just trying to understand what could we do better.

00:34:20.659 --> 00:34:23.840
And that became something that was really important

00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.480
to us. We have since hosted 35 of those events

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.559
over the seven years that we've been doing those.

00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:31.719
And it's always been important to us to have

00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:35.239
people from across the spectrum, across the economic

00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.460
spectrum and the experience spectrum. We want

00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:41.599
people there who we want prosecutors and we want

00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:44.280
people who are just out of prison. We want soccer

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.000
moms and we want moms who are walking with a

00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:52.199
son or daughter through 20 years of addiction.

00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.960
We want people just with. all different kinds

00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.780
of expertise because so often that's what's missing

00:34:59.780 --> 00:35:02.739
in these conversations you have you know law

00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:04.639
enforcement are only talking to law enforcement

00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.159
or treatment professionals are only talking to

00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:09.599
treatment professionals or parents are only talking

00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:12.579
to other parents and these gave us a really unique

00:35:12.579 --> 00:35:15.739
opportunity to have people able to share those

00:35:15.739 --> 00:35:20.239
perspectives and it was a really It was like

00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:23.139
a lightning in a bottle. People loved it and

00:35:23.139 --> 00:35:25.760
continued to invite their friends to come to

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.800
these, and that became the impetus for starting

00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:32.480
End It For Good, was seeing there really is interest

00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.559
in finding better solutions, in exploring different

00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:39.320
things, even if they're uncomfortable, because

00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:43.119
we do really all want the same thing, which is

00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.639
fewer people struggling with addiction, fewer

00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:50.369
people dying, more people thriving. So which

00:35:50.369 --> 00:35:55.150
came first, your book, Curious, or your TED Talk?

00:35:56.050 --> 00:36:02.110
Yes, I did the TED Talk in 2019. That came out

00:36:02.110 --> 00:36:06.050
about six months before COVID happened. We were

00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:09.190
doing events all that year in 2019 all over Mississippi.

00:36:09.429 --> 00:36:12.150
That was the year we became a nonprofit. And

00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:14.550
then 2020 happened. And what are you going to

00:36:14.550 --> 00:36:17.019
do when you're... When you do events all the

00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:19.380
time, well, there's no events happening. And

00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:25.039
so I started writing the book. And that was what

00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:27.219
I thought would be, you know, a six -month process.

00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:30.840
I'll just quick write this book. And that COVID

00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:34.059
would be over by then. It did not happen that

00:36:34.059 --> 00:36:36.880
way. It ended up taking me three years to write

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:41.079
the book. So the book, though, one, helped you

00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.619
clarify some things, find new, real information.

00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:50.429
and gave you more credibility yeah for sure um

00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:54.210
and it it became you know part of the part of

00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:57.070
what the book has done is taken you know everybody

00:36:57.070 --> 00:37:00.869
comes in at different levels of interest so there

00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:03.590
are some people who they're interested in listening

00:37:03.590 --> 00:37:06.130
to a 20 -minute ted talk great it's out there

00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:08.610
for you on youtube go to our website enditforgood

00:37:08.610 --> 00:37:11.269
.com there's a link there for it And you can

00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:14.630
see the big picture in 20 minutes of everything

00:37:14.630 --> 00:37:16.769
that we believe about how to better approach

00:37:16.769 --> 00:37:20.230
drugs and addiction. Or you can go a little bit

00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:22.869
deeper. And that was what I wrote Curious for,

00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:26.269
is for people who want to go a little bit deeper

00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:31.170
and want to really understand. Part of the reason

00:37:31.170 --> 00:37:33.489
I wrote the book is to help people with backgrounds

00:37:33.489 --> 00:37:36.679
like mine. for whom rethinking how we approach

00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:39.219
drugs feels scary. We have lots of questions.

00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:43.699
We aren't sure we want to go down a different

00:37:43.699 --> 00:37:46.519
path. And I wanted to work through that. So the

00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:50.280
book is written first person. It is written as

00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.079
me as a memoir, walking through my own story

00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.579
of learning. all the questions that I had. It

00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:59.760
goes through Joanne's story of her own childhood

00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.860
and adulthood and the things she wrestled with

00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:07.159
as part of her substance use and takes people

00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.559
through these different solution options in a

00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.760
way that we leave the ultimate decision up to

00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.320
them. There's no hard sell of you must agree

00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:20.400
once you get to the end of the book, but rather...

00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.920
If we all agree, which we tend to, most people

00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.300
will agree that we are not getting the outcomes

00:38:26.300 --> 00:38:29.880
related to substance use that we want. We know

00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.820
that illicit drug use has doubled in the last

00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:35.599
20 years in the United States. We know that more

00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.679
people have died of overdose in the last 10 years

00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.019
than any other time in history. We know that

00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:45.880
drugs are becoming more potent, more available,

00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:50.730
and cheaper than ever before. These are not movements

00:38:50.730 --> 00:38:53.349
in a positive direction. So most people agree

00:38:53.349 --> 00:38:56.190
it would be great if there were some things that

00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:59.230
worked better. And curious is written as a very

00:38:59.230 --> 00:39:03.750
low barrier, easy to understand, written for

00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:09.500
everyone. story, really. It's just a story of

00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:12.519
how God changed my heart, the things I learned

00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.380
along the way, the tools that might help families

00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:18.980
that are looking for better solutions, and an

00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:22.260
invitation to come and learn and see what is

00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:25.500
helpful to them, to help them on a very painful

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:30.559
journey. So just before we let you tell some

00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:36.219
ideas of what could be different and how to It's

00:39:36.219 --> 00:39:38.519
one thing to tell people it could be different,

00:39:38.619 --> 00:39:42.599
but what steps do we take? Maybe give us a little

00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.980
idea when you discovered that your son, the foster

00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:49.840
son, did you ever adopt him or he stayed a foster

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:54.300
son? Yeah, so he was with us for one month. Joanne's

00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:56.340
son, Beckham, was just with us for a month. He

00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:59.460
went with her to inpatient treatment at that

00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:02.900
treatment center. has been with her ever since

00:40:02.900 --> 00:40:07.219
and he uh celebrated his 10th birthday uh last

00:40:07.219 --> 00:40:10.579
december and she has been sober since then um

00:40:10.579 --> 00:40:15.780
she has been yes and now you know that is the

00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:20.639
a great um arc of story you know who doesn't

00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:23.760
want that story to be the the way that it ends

00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:27.940
and yet i recognize For many people, they go

00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:30.980
to treatment many times before they ever find

00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:34.599
a path to recovery that works for them. And I

00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:39.519
also recognize that we came in at the point that

00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:42.619
Joanne was beginning that change. Her family

00:40:42.619 --> 00:40:46.360
had been living with her in the chaos of active

00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:50.480
addiction for 20 years by that point. And she

00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.940
invited us to come to Beckham's one -year -old

00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:58.119
birthday party. And we had met some of her family

00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:02.239
previously, but not others of them. So we all

00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.159
met at this restaurant and we sat down across

00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:09.099
from one of her family members. And she looked

00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:12.460
at us and she said, I cannot believe that we're

00:41:12.460 --> 00:41:15.980
here. Who would have ever thought that this could

00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:20.099
end this way? We never thought that there would

00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:23.900
be anything different in. in her life than this

00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:28.619
path because it had been so long and it had just

00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:32.099
been so hard for so many years. And I think that's

00:41:32.099 --> 00:41:35.440
the part that most families can resonate with

00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:40.460
is not this kind of change moment, but of the

00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:43.639
20 years before that, that were just so difficult

00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.860
where you see someone you love making terrible

00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:51.929
decisions and yet nothing you do. has been able

00:41:51.929 --> 00:41:56.489
to change what they're doing. So what do you

00:41:56.489 --> 00:42:00.449
tell families then, some practical application

00:42:00.449 --> 00:42:05.389
of how things can be different? Yeah. What can

00:42:05.389 --> 00:42:10.630
you do to turn a corner, to make it head a different

00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:14.380
direction? Yeah. So I think every family knows

00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:16.699
that no matter how much we wish that we could

00:42:16.699 --> 00:42:18.780
force our loved ones to make a different decision,

00:42:18.940 --> 00:42:21.159
you simply cannot. It does not matter what you

00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.880
do. There is no way to force someone to do what

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.099
you want them to do. Even if you force them into

00:42:28.099 --> 00:42:31.199
jail, let's say, and they are forced to detox

00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.420
as soon as they come out of jail or as soon as

00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:36.960
they... get out of solitary confinement or however

00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.619
they're forcibly detoxing them they can go right

00:42:39.619 --> 00:42:42.820
back to using again and often do and often do

00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:46.579
yes and often it makes it far more dangerous

00:42:46.579 --> 00:42:49.579
if they have been detoxed because their tolerance

00:42:49.579 --> 00:42:52.739
for a drug has gone significantly down and what

00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:54.940
could have gotten them high before will kill

00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:58.739
they go back to their old level yes yeah so it

00:42:58.739 --> 00:43:02.340
can be it can be more dangerous to try to force

00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:04.679
someone to stop using than it is to let them

00:43:05.019 --> 00:43:07.860
continue using. And that's something that's helpful

00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:10.179
for families to know. If a person's not ready,

00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:12.820
it can be more dangerous to their life and health

00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:16.000
to try to force them into it. So I would say

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.980
look for the solution that we think about solutions

00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:21.980
as kind of community and family level and then

00:43:21.980 --> 00:43:24.519
policy level. So some people are interested in

00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:26.980
policy change. We think that's a significant

00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:30.320
way that we could better society. Some are only

00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:33.539
interested in that kind of you know, individual

00:43:33.539 --> 00:43:35.900
level, how could they approach their family member

00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:39.639
differently? And that matters for them. But if

00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:43.199
we're going to help people more broadly, so how

00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:48.420
does that work? How do you, not a trained scientist

00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:51.519
or professional in a sense, but you've learned

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.849
a lot, how do you help the change occur? Yeah,

00:43:56.849 --> 00:43:59.710
so I'd say on the policy front, we're always

00:43:59.710 --> 00:44:04.889
looking at, are these policies approaching substance

00:44:04.889 --> 00:44:08.150
use and addiction as a health issue? If the policies

00:44:08.150 --> 00:44:10.929
are built on the idea that people just need to

00:44:10.929 --> 00:44:14.389
be punished out of their substance use, that's

00:44:14.389 --> 00:44:16.849
just not going to be effective. It hasn't been

00:44:16.849 --> 00:44:19.369
effective in the 100 years that we have done

00:44:19.369 --> 00:44:21.889
it. Sure, there are a few people out there who

00:44:21.889 --> 00:44:23.590
will say jail was the best thing that happened

00:44:23.590 --> 00:44:27.090
to me. Just keeps going. Yes, but for most people,

00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:29.690
law enforcement included, they will tell you

00:44:29.690 --> 00:44:31.429
one of the most frustrating things about their

00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:33.449
job is that they arrest the same people over

00:44:33.449 --> 00:44:35.730
and over again, and it doesn't do anything to

00:44:35.730 --> 00:44:38.650
actually change their substance use. So there

00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:41.409
are a few success stories, but we have to look

00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:43.610
at what happened to all the other people because

00:44:43.610 --> 00:44:46.110
we're arresting tens of thousands of people every

00:44:46.110 --> 00:44:49.710
year just for possession. of a substance, not

00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:52.309
because they're, you know, assaulting someone,

00:44:52.510 --> 00:44:55.050
not because they're selling it, just because

00:44:55.050 --> 00:44:57.730
they are in possession of it. And does that actually

00:44:57.730 --> 00:45:00.670
help them? We would say no, it doesn't. It is,

00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:03.949
it's handling a health issue with a criminal

00:45:03.949 --> 00:45:06.530
justice tool that's not going to produce good

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:09.889
results. So that's what I mean by a health issue.

00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.880
Yeah, so we think of that as we need the tools,

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.320
a similar set of tools that we use for other

00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.739
health issues like tobacco use and alcohol use.

00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:23.199
We don't criminalize people for consuming those

00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.780
substances, but we do educate them honestly about

00:45:26.780 --> 00:45:30.139
what harm can come. We do hold them accountable,

00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:32.880
particularly with alcohol use, for the ways that

00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.980
it can harm the people around them. So if you're

00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:37.679
drinking and driving, for instance. You can't

00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:39.780
do that legally. Now you're putting other people

00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:43.000
in harm's way. But if you are just making the

00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.440
choice to drink alcohol, we're not going to arrest

00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.139
you for that. We recognize that's not going to

00:45:48.139 --> 00:45:51.199
help. Even if you struggle with an alcohol addiction,

00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:54.739
an arrest is really not going to be the thing

00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:59.440
that helps you overcome that in general. It certainly

00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.469
could be that if you're... Drinking and driving,

00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:06.250
well, we need to keep the community safe. So

00:46:06.250 --> 00:46:07.789
there's an appropriate role for the criminal

00:46:07.789 --> 00:46:11.510
justice system. But is like drinking and driving,

00:46:11.630 --> 00:46:15.469
is that mostly handled by the law as opposed

00:46:15.469 --> 00:46:18.550
to a health issue and helping them get help?

00:46:18.969 --> 00:46:22.050
So I think this is one of the areas where the

00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:24.269
innovation of drug courts, which are largely

00:46:24.269 --> 00:46:27.969
utilized in every state now. So what happens

00:46:27.969 --> 00:46:32.750
is if a person is arrested for committing some

00:46:32.750 --> 00:46:36.130
crime, but the core issue is that they're struggling

00:46:36.130 --> 00:46:38.030
with an addiction. So maybe they were drinking

00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:40.690
and driving and the core issue is they have.

00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.679
an alcohol use disorder, they can be diverted

00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:47.139
into this drug court where they're still held

00:46:47.139 --> 00:46:49.719
accountable in the criminal justice system. But

00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:53.619
as long as they go to treatment and abide by

00:46:53.619 --> 00:46:57.440
the rules of the court, the goal is to address

00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:01.079
that underlying issue of addiction rather than

00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:03.139
just punishing them, putting them back out on

00:47:03.139 --> 00:47:05.619
the street again, and we've done nothing to address

00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:08.489
the underlying issue. So I think drug courts

00:47:08.489 --> 00:47:12.030
are a way that can be helpful when someone's

00:47:12.030 --> 00:47:15.530
substance use is now creating problems in the

00:47:15.530 --> 00:47:17.449
community where they need to be held accountable.

00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:21.630
A similar thing would be for, oftentimes if people

00:47:21.630 --> 00:47:23.289
are struggling with an addiction, they cannot

00:47:23.289 --> 00:47:26.800
fund that addiction. They have a hard time keeping

00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:29.460
a job often. And so they don't have the money

00:47:29.460 --> 00:47:31.739
to fund the addiction. So they end up stealing

00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:34.539
to fund their addiction. So it could be that

00:47:34.539 --> 00:47:37.880
they get arrested on a theft charge. That's an

00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:40.239
appropriate role of the criminal justice system.

00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.340
You have taken something from someone else that

00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:46.239
that's appropriate to be arrested for. But they

00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:49.239
can be diverted to a drug court when the court

00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.019
recognizes, well, sure, we could just stick them

00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:54.110
in. jail for six months, but that's not going

00:47:54.110 --> 00:47:56.329
to solve the reason they were stealing something.

00:47:56.570 --> 00:47:58.449
And if we just put them back out on the street

00:47:58.449 --> 00:48:00.389
in six months in the same way that they are now,

00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:02.909
they're probably going to be stealing something

00:48:02.909 --> 00:48:05.550
else in six months because the addiction is still

00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:09.210
there. So we want to, even within the court system,

00:48:09.289 --> 00:48:12.650
to look at how do we address that core issue,

00:48:12.769 --> 00:48:15.730
which is a health issue. It is a health crisis

00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:20.269
of somebody is taking substances that they feel

00:48:20.269 --> 00:48:24.269
they must continue to take, even in spite of

00:48:24.269 --> 00:48:28.269
negative consequences in their life. So we would

00:48:28.269 --> 00:48:31.550
love to see the criminal justice system not arrest

00:48:31.550 --> 00:48:33.989
people for drug possession, although we do want

00:48:33.989 --> 00:48:36.909
them to continue to hold people accountable for

00:48:36.909 --> 00:48:39.429
ways they harm the community. That could be a

00:48:39.429 --> 00:48:41.550
policy change that could be helpful. It would

00:48:41.550 --> 00:48:44.050
protect people from unnecessary criminal justice

00:48:44.050 --> 00:48:47.329
involvement and criminal records. all kinds of

00:48:47.329 --> 00:48:50.210
things that create problems for people who are

00:48:50.210 --> 00:48:52.550
trying to live in recovery. It's hard to get

00:48:52.550 --> 00:48:56.489
a job if you have a criminal record. So what

00:48:56.489 --> 00:49:01.989
would you say to a family that's got a person,

00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:06.170
or maybe more than one, who have an addiction

00:49:06.170 --> 00:49:12.550
issue that it hasn't gone into the criminal justice

00:49:12.550 --> 00:49:17.489
system, but they are desperate? to have make

00:49:17.489 --> 00:49:20.590
a difference here and bring change what what

00:49:20.590 --> 00:49:25.550
would you say what are approaches yeah so a couple

00:49:25.550 --> 00:49:28.420
um bullet points and i want to tell you a story

00:49:28.420 --> 00:49:31.619
about it um so a couple bullet points there's

00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:35.780
a program called craft it is an approach to for

00:49:35.780 --> 00:49:39.659
families with addicted loved ones to use craft

00:49:39.659 --> 00:49:42.320
stands for community reinforcement and family

00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:47.809
training it's been studied for 25 years as more

00:49:47.809 --> 00:49:50.590
effective at helping families to be healthy,

00:49:50.769 --> 00:49:54.090
to set appropriate boundaries, but to stay connected

00:49:54.090 --> 00:49:57.730
to their loved one, which in turn has increased

00:49:57.730 --> 00:50:00.630
their loved one's likelihood to get help. So

00:50:00.630 --> 00:50:03.409
when families think about what is the best way

00:50:03.409 --> 00:50:07.050
I can help my loved one, CRAFT is the tool that

00:50:07.050 --> 00:50:08.969
we want to send them to to learn how to do that.

00:50:09.710 --> 00:50:12.030
Cutting Your Loved One Off. Is that widely available?

00:50:12.369 --> 00:50:14.449
It's available in different forms in different

00:50:14.449 --> 00:50:17.690
places. So there is an online version that's

00:50:17.690 --> 00:50:21.309
been developed by an organization in the Northeast,

00:50:21.570 --> 00:50:24.150
and that is called Invitation to Change. That's

00:50:24.150 --> 00:50:26.489
available anywhere. You can participate in Invitation

00:50:26.489 --> 00:50:29.210
to Change virtually. So to encourage people,

00:50:29.389 --> 00:50:32.579
you can look for craft -related. tools in your

00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:35.059
own community or look up invitation to change

00:50:35.059 --> 00:50:37.900
there's a book that is connected to invitation

00:50:37.900 --> 00:50:39.940
to change the book is called beyond addiction

00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:43.139
the subtitle is how science and kindness help

00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:46.239
people heal would highly recommend for people

00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:50.139
to read that it is a helps people to get their

00:50:50.139 --> 00:50:54.599
minds around this shift it's a big shift to go

00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:56.900
from what most of us grew up with which is look

00:50:56.900 --> 00:50:58.980
you got to cut people off you just have to let

00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:01.880
them hit rock bottom you've got to disconnect

00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.639
from people who are making bad choices so that

00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.739
they feel the weight of those choices. Instead

00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:12.059
of that, we actually have evidence and research

00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:16.500
that when we use effective communication tools,

00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.760
we can actually stay connected to our loved one

00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:22.480
and it increases the likelihood that they're

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.119
going to get help. It is more effective than

00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:27.659
cutting them off. And what family doesn't want

00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:30.619
the most effective tools possible to help their

00:51:30.619 --> 00:51:34.780
loved one? And what family doesn't want to know

00:51:34.780 --> 00:51:38.380
if they lose their loved one that they were connected?

00:51:39.070 --> 00:51:41.170
their loved one knew that they were loved and

00:51:41.170 --> 00:51:43.849
cared for. And these tools give them a way to

00:51:43.849 --> 00:51:46.369
do that, to maintain and strengthen that bond

00:51:46.369 --> 00:51:49.829
while also increasing the likelihood that they

00:51:49.829 --> 00:51:53.190
make positive steps in their health and life.

00:51:53.289 --> 00:51:55.210
So really want to encourage people on those fronts.

00:51:56.409 --> 00:52:00.989
It is, I often hear either from parents who are

00:52:00.989 --> 00:52:06.179
still committed to the kind of black and white

00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:07.960
thinking about it either they're going to be

00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.500
totally abstinent or I'm not going to have anything

00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:14.000
to do with them or I hear from devastated parents

00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:18.139
whose children have passed away who say why didn't

00:52:18.139 --> 00:52:19.980
somebody tell me there was a different way to

00:52:19.980 --> 00:52:23.679
approach this because what I wouldn't give to

00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.860
be able to have a good relationship and that

00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:33.019
even if I still lost my child I know that that

00:52:33.019 --> 00:52:35.300
they knew, they were loved and connected with,

00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.159
and we did everything we could to maintain that

00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:41.019
bond with them. So really encourage people on

00:52:41.019 --> 00:52:44.179
that. I just got an email from a woman just a

00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:48.699
couple of days ago. I had written a, I write

00:52:48.699 --> 00:52:50.519
our newsletter for End It For Good, and this

00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:54.440
particular one was on natural recovery. This

00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:56.420
is not something that we have typically heard

00:52:56.420 --> 00:52:58.579
about. Most of us here, people need to go to

00:52:58.579 --> 00:53:00.340
treatment or they're never going to get better.

00:53:00.820 --> 00:53:03.260
And what the research says is that actually if

00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:06.250
people can stay alive long enough, Many of them

00:53:06.250 --> 00:53:09.090
will recover on their own without treatment in

00:53:09.090 --> 00:53:12.230
their 30s. Not everybody, certainly, but many

00:53:12.230 --> 00:53:15.170
people will go through this kind of aging out

00:53:15.170 --> 00:53:18.250
process as life begins to kind of calm down,

00:53:18.389 --> 00:53:22.050
as they change out of those early 20s, lack of

00:53:22.050 --> 00:53:24.989
brain development and into, you know, sometimes

00:53:24.989 --> 00:53:27.150
they've had kids by that point. They have relationships

00:53:27.150 --> 00:53:30.769
that are more meaningful to them. They want to

00:53:30.769 --> 00:53:34.250
be able to show up for a job and work and move

00:53:34.250 --> 00:53:36.880
into. that next phase of more responsible life.

00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:40.739
And so at the end of our newsletter, as I often

00:53:40.739 --> 00:53:43.059
do, I ask for people to just send me their feedback.

00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:46.219
And I had a mom who emailed me and she said,

00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:49.099
you know, this is the journey that we've taken

00:53:49.099 --> 00:53:52.579
with our son. You know, we have gone through

00:53:52.579 --> 00:53:54.800
multiple rounds of kind of like, you've got to

00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:56.559
go to treatment. You have to go to treatment.

00:53:56.699 --> 00:53:59.119
And he's gone to treatment. He's relapsed and

00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.199
he's nearly died twice. She said, we finally

00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:05.780
started looking for other. answers. And she said,

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.260
you know, we, one of the things that we heard

00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:11.639
was keep them alive till 25, till their brains

00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.760
are fully developed. And she said, that's what

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.940
we really hung on to. We started thinking about

00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:20.320
how can we reduce some of that pressure to get

00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:22.639
it all figured out right now? And how could we

00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:26.599
focus on what is, what's, what is he open to,

00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:29.900
to being healthier? So their son is not 25 yet.

00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:33.889
I think he's 23 currently. But she said the amount

00:54:33.889 --> 00:54:38.630
of stability and lack of fear that they've been

00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:42.750
able to find by switching from you've got to

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:44.949
get abstinent, you've got to get abstinent, to

00:54:44.949 --> 00:54:48.769
how can you be healthy even if you're not willing

00:54:48.769 --> 00:54:51.670
to be abstinent? And so their son has gone from

00:54:51.670 --> 00:54:54.909
incredibly risky drug use of illicit substances

00:54:54.909 --> 00:55:00.179
to now using marijuana. that he buys legally

00:55:00.179 --> 00:55:04.760
um and some people would say well that's not

00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:08.280
that's that's no that's no good how is that a

00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:12.579
win well if you're a mom who has revived your

00:55:12.579 --> 00:55:16.000
child from a near -death experience in which

00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:18.719
he spent months in the hospital recovering and

00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:20.599
learning how to do everything again because he

00:55:20.599 --> 00:55:25.000
nearly died to now your son is stable and able

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:30.460
to kind of maintain a pretty normal life, not

00:55:30.460 --> 00:55:33.039
using contaminated substances on the street,

00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:36.940
which are far more likely to lead to death. Wow,

00:55:36.940 --> 00:55:40.219
that's a huge win. His health is significantly

00:55:40.219 --> 00:55:43.179
improved. His risk of death is significantly

00:55:43.179 --> 00:55:47.019
decreased. Their family stability is significantly

00:55:47.019 --> 00:55:51.059
increased. Now, their hope for him, based on

00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:54.000
her back and forth emails with me, is that one

00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.030
day He isn't going to want to use that marijuana

00:55:57.030 --> 00:56:01.469
anymore. But they are happy and supportive with

00:56:01.469 --> 00:56:06.610
him making healthier choices. And they're encouraging

00:56:06.610 --> 00:56:11.210
him in that. One of my friends who lost his son

00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:14.389
to an overdose just after his son graduated high

00:56:14.389 --> 00:56:18.010
school. He said, you know, I used to I would

00:56:18.010 --> 00:56:20.809
approach every time my son relapsed. His son

00:56:20.809 --> 00:56:22.389
had first gone to treatment. I think he was about

00:56:22.389 --> 00:56:25.289
17. He said, you know, every time he would he

00:56:25.289 --> 00:56:27.309
would maintain sobriety for, you know, a month

00:56:27.309 --> 00:56:29.110
or two or three and they'd relapse. He said,

00:56:29.150 --> 00:56:31.889
you know, my my whole thinking of communication

00:56:31.889 --> 00:56:35.829
was just why did you do that? You know, how could

00:56:35.829 --> 00:56:39.570
you give up on on your sobriety? He said, you

00:56:39.570 --> 00:56:42.010
know, now what I wouldn't give to reframe that

00:56:42.010 --> 00:56:45.699
with my son and say. Look, Zach, you made it

00:56:45.699 --> 00:56:48.860
two or three months without using like that's

00:56:48.860 --> 00:56:50.719
that's really awesome. And we're celebrating

00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:53.820
that hard work because we know every day that

00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:56.719
you don't use is a struggle. And that's incredible

00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:00.619
that you made it 60 days without using. That's

00:57:00.619 --> 00:57:04.980
just a totally different way of framing. Is it?

00:57:05.690 --> 00:57:07.829
Are we encouraging people for the small steps

00:57:07.829 --> 00:57:11.530
they're able to take? Or are we continuing to

00:57:11.530 --> 00:57:13.750
tell them it's never enough until they can be

00:57:13.750 --> 00:57:20.949
perfect? Just like an athlete who starts slow

00:57:20.949 --> 00:57:24.449
and with small steps and trains and gets better

00:57:24.449 --> 00:57:29.429
and can do more and more and then get to where

00:57:29.429 --> 00:57:33.880
they can really do it. It just makes all the

00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:39.699
sense in the world. But the ability to have supportive

00:57:39.699 --> 00:57:45.800
people who will believe in them, and yes, some

00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:51.239
of them prove you wrong, but you're going to

00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:54.699
make a whole lot more progress when they know

00:57:54.699 --> 00:57:56.980
they're cared for, they're loved, you're on their

00:57:56.980 --> 00:57:59.980
side, you're trying to help, as opposed to...

00:58:00.650 --> 00:58:07.889
You're angry and you're punishing them. And it's

00:58:07.889 --> 00:58:12.250
a hard thing for people to get to that transition.

00:58:12.849 --> 00:58:16.809
Another mom that we just had recently on our

00:58:16.809 --> 00:58:18.989
podcast has walked with her daughter through

00:58:18.989 --> 00:58:22.010
addiction for many years. And she said that what

00:58:22.010 --> 00:58:26.230
really changed for them is when she shifted her.

00:58:27.090 --> 00:58:29.889
approach to that her and her daughter were in

00:58:29.889 --> 00:58:33.610
a war to her and her daughter were on the same

00:58:33.610 --> 00:58:37.289
side in a war against the addiction it wasn't

00:58:37.289 --> 00:58:41.050
them fighting each other it was how can we get

00:58:41.050 --> 00:58:45.070
how can you feel that i am on your team as we

00:58:45.070 --> 00:58:49.530
work together to to bring health where there

00:58:49.530 --> 00:58:51.929
is not health right now and healing where there's

00:58:51.929 --> 00:58:55.289
not healing right now and that dramatically changed

00:58:55.289 --> 00:58:57.969
their relationship And it also significantly

00:58:57.969 --> 00:59:01.750
changed her daughter's success in her approach.

00:59:01.889 --> 00:59:05.989
They went from kind of this abstinence only approach

00:59:05.989 --> 00:59:08.630
to looking into medications that are now available

00:59:08.630 --> 00:59:12.369
for addiction treatment and are shown to be more

00:59:12.369 --> 00:59:15.090
effective at long term recovery and at reducing

00:59:15.090 --> 00:59:18.809
the risk of death. And I think for most families

00:59:18.809 --> 00:59:27.219
today to, you know. we have we've been conditioned

00:59:27.219 --> 00:59:30.340
to want perfection that has been what we have

00:59:30.340 --> 00:59:32.639
been taught is the only way to approach addiction

00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:36.420
is it is perfection otherwise you know we got

00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:39.300
to just let people hit rock bottom or they've

00:59:39.300 --> 00:59:43.059
got to make this quantum leap and you know how

00:59:43.059 --> 00:59:46.230
many of us can make a quantum leap on any kind

00:59:46.230 --> 00:59:49.429
of behavior change. I have not, you know, I'm

00:59:49.429 --> 00:59:51.989
a pretty driven person. I have not been able

00:59:51.989 --> 00:59:55.449
to do that on really anything in my life. Humans

00:59:55.449 --> 00:59:59.230
change incrementally. And, you know, what we,

00:59:59.230 --> 01:00:02.150
what we love, and it tends to be that the stories

01:00:02.150 --> 01:00:06.050
that get told publicly are the biggest changes.

01:00:06.349 --> 01:00:10.630
So we hear the stories of I was spending my last

01:00:10.630 --> 01:00:13.969
dollar on heroin and then one day I woke up and

01:00:13.969 --> 01:00:17.489
everything changed and boom, my life was different.

01:00:17.650 --> 01:00:20.269
That's the story that gets highlighted. It's

01:00:20.269 --> 01:00:24.090
incredibly rare. The vast majority of people

01:00:24.090 --> 01:00:27.289
do not change that way. They change with fits

01:00:27.289 --> 01:00:33.210
and starts and small changes and going from injecting

01:00:33.210 --> 01:00:38.230
heroin to maybe smoking and from you know really

01:00:38.230 --> 01:00:42.449
risky chaotic use to maybe less chaotic like

01:00:42.449 --> 01:00:47.269
most human behavior that sticks changes slowly

01:00:47.269 --> 01:00:51.250
over time and I think that's really where families

01:00:51.250 --> 01:00:54.590
can come in and celebrate small wins with their

01:00:54.590 --> 01:01:00.599
loved one instead of kind of holding their affection

01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:05.460
and support until that perfection can be attained.

01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:11.719
Because either way, whether or not a loved one

01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:15.679
eventually finds a path to recovery, whether

01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:22.280
or not they eventually pass away, what my experience

01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:24.960
is in talking to parents is parents would do

01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:28.619
anything to to be able to not feel that deep

01:01:28.619 --> 01:01:33.079
sense of regret over what might have been and

01:01:33.079 --> 01:01:39.639
yes and it is it is to me a travesty of our teaching

01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:44.059
of parents that we have not publicly communicated

01:01:44.059 --> 01:01:46.960
really well that actually the best way they can

01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:48.760
help their loved ones if you look at the research

01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:52.849
is not to cut them off It is to set appropriate

01:01:52.849 --> 01:01:55.190
boundaries, but to maintain that relationship,

01:01:55.269 --> 01:01:58.150
to celebrate those small wins, to help them make

01:01:58.150 --> 01:02:02.070
any positive change that they're willing to make

01:02:02.070 --> 01:02:04.309
and to let them know that you're on their team.

01:02:04.329 --> 01:02:09.050
Maintain that relationship. Yeah. So, well, Christina,

01:02:09.269 --> 01:02:13.949
tell us how somebody who wanted to go further

01:02:13.949 --> 01:02:18.269
and make progress could get connected with End

01:02:18.269 --> 01:02:21.929
It For Good. Yeah, you can join us on, everything

01:02:21.929 --> 01:02:26.150
is over on our website, enditforgood .com. And

01:02:26.150 --> 01:02:27.949
if you're wondering where that name comes from,

01:02:27.969 --> 01:02:30.769
it comes from ending a criminal justice approach

01:02:30.769 --> 01:02:33.869
to drugs, but doing that for good, because we

01:02:33.869 --> 01:02:35.969
believe that shifting to that health -centered

01:02:35.969 --> 01:02:38.769
approach is going to be good, not just for people.

01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:41.500
struggling with addiction, but for all of the

01:02:41.500 --> 01:02:43.800
rest of us, because it's going to better approach

01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:47.679
a significant public health issue with more effective

01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:49.820
solutions that are going to benefit everyone

01:02:49.820 --> 01:02:51.920
in the community, whether we're using drugs or

01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:55.460
not. So enditforgood .com. We're on social media.

01:02:55.539 --> 01:02:57.820
You can come join our newsletter for conversations

01:02:57.820 --> 01:03:01.300
like I was talking about related to sometimes

01:03:01.300 --> 01:03:04.170
I'm talking about. Policy, sometimes I'm talking

01:03:04.170 --> 01:03:07.449
about sharing family stories, but those newsletters

01:03:07.449 --> 01:03:09.510
come out every two weeks and they always have

01:03:09.510 --> 01:03:12.050
some kind of commentary on something that people

01:03:12.050 --> 01:03:14.389
find interesting, something they might not know,

01:03:14.690 --> 01:03:18.849
a tool they might never have heard of. That would

01:03:18.849 --> 01:03:20.869
be, you know, different pathways to recovery

01:03:20.869 --> 01:03:23.449
they may never have heard of before. There's

01:03:23.449 --> 01:03:26.130
a new technology in Kentucky called the NET device

01:03:26.130 --> 01:03:28.829
that's really fascinating. There's new innovations

01:03:28.829 --> 01:03:31.849
in treatment in Colorado that are not available

01:03:31.849 --> 01:03:34.570
anywhere else yet. We love to highlight those

01:03:34.570 --> 01:03:38.070
because people want hope and there are more solutions

01:03:38.070 --> 01:03:41.889
coming that we just have not. implemented nationwide

01:03:41.889 --> 01:03:44.630
yet. And we want to highlight those. So come

01:03:44.630 --> 01:03:46.610
join us at endofforgood .com. Come find us on

01:03:46.610 --> 01:03:49.110
social media. We'd love to connect with you.

01:03:49.190 --> 01:03:52.570
You can find my book on Amazon. It's called Curious

01:03:52.570 --> 01:03:56.030
and has been, I've heard from many families that

01:03:56.030 --> 01:03:59.510
it has given them hope and been a very healing

01:03:59.510 --> 01:04:01.769
experience for them reading it. Well, speaking

01:04:01.769 --> 01:04:05.610
of your book, we're going to have two of them

01:04:05.610 --> 01:04:10.219
to give away to listeners. For the listeners,

01:04:10.340 --> 01:04:13.679
you need to go to the show notes to get instructions

01:04:13.679 --> 01:04:17.280
of how to sign up to be in the drawing for the

01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:20.300
books. And we will also include some information

01:04:20.300 --> 01:04:23.940
about your ministry, your business, your effort

01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:27.179
to make a difference here and really help. And

01:04:27.179 --> 01:04:32.280
those will be available. But I'm so excited to

01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:37.019
pass this on to our listeners who, in many cases,

01:04:37.900 --> 01:04:43.960
feel hopeless still for their loved ones. Often

01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:47.920
their children, sometimes grown children, sometimes

01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:52.960
their spouses. It's pretty pervasive out there.

01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:57.000
And so I just think this is going to be a help,

01:04:57.139 --> 01:05:00.800
a great help to a lot of people. And so we will

01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:02.920
make sure it gets around and we will make sure

01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:08.449
your audiences can also have it. Thank you, Christina.

01:05:08.530 --> 01:05:13.570
Thanks for your taking a challenging, heartbreaking

01:05:13.570 --> 01:05:19.090
kind of thing that you discovered and did the

01:05:19.090 --> 01:05:21.989
research and pursued it and looked for the options

01:05:21.989 --> 01:05:27.989
and can give people a real new, better approach

01:05:27.989 --> 01:05:32.039
that cares for the person. and not just blames

01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:36.159
the person. So thank you. Thank you so much.

01:05:36.179 --> 01:05:39.139
Thank you, Judy. It's been a joy to be with you.

01:05:39.460 --> 01:05:40.960
My pleasure for sure.