Follow the Evidence with Bruce Cook

0:00 Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I'm so glad that you've joined us, and I think you are in for such a helpful conversation today. I am just thrilled to be able to do this and let you get some new information that might be helpful as you walk through life with or without the presence of a prodigal that you love very much. If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast, and also help and hope for your own life journey.

0:46 As you listen today, you know I say this every time, be alert to ideas or some actions you can take that could be helpful for you. and your family on the current journey that you're on. When I wrote my book, When You Love a Prodigal, and I know many of you have read it, and I started this podcast, we were all mostly concerned about our teenage sons and daughters who were caught up in rebellion, bad choices, addictions, lots of other things. And that's still true for many.

1:29 However, it's also true that the awful lot of the prodigals that I'm getting words about and finding out about are no longer in that situation, even though some of those things are still true. They've just kind of decided they can't believe anything that we've tried to say. encourage them to believe the way that we raise them, perhaps, or the spiritual input in their lives and taking them to church, all of that, because they've said, who knows? How do you think? No, it's true at all. And so they've just rejected it. And some have gone further than rejecting what we believe and what they had once said they believe to the fact that they feel that maybe they've been pushed too far or they just can't maintain the relationship. And I know so many, so many whose kids, as they become adults, have not only turned from the Lord, but have turned from their family. And they have nothing to do with them or very little to do with them. And that is just so heartbreaking. So we want to give you a little bit of input that perhaps It's certainly in your prayers, but perhaps when you do have conversations with them, you'll have some new information and some new approaches that might just make a difference

3:02 in helping them to realize maybe we know more about what we're talking about than they think we do. So our guest today is Bruce Cook. Now, Bruce is a long, long time friend of mine. Because he was roommate, best man in our wedding, good friends for all the years with my sweet, wonderful husband. Steve and Bruce and I both miss him. I know. I probably miss him more, though. I'm pretty sure I do. Bruce has written a book that I think you're going to be so excited about.

3:47 Now, he's done a lot of different things. He graduated from Georgia Tech, and then he went to Harvard Business School, where he and Steve connected. And then he joined Campus Crusade for Christ, CRU. He said it was because he was just going with Steve, but I think God called him. And he worked with CRU for a while. He worked with Bill Bright, the founder and president of CRU. He just helped do a lot of startup kinds of things within the ministry and to help from his Harvard Business School education to help our staff around the world as we were seeking to grow the ministry globally. He's also the author of three books. He founded and led a business ministry called Leadership Dynamics. A lot of other things, which you can read in the show notes, because I put them there. I just didn't want to take up our whole time telling all the things Bruce has done. But he has written this wonderful new book, and you're going to hear about it. Welcome, Bruce. Thank you, Judy. Delighted to be here, and we do miss Steve. Yeah, we do.

5:09 And I'm proud of the work you're carrying on. And delighted I could be a part of this. Well, I would say the same for you. It's a great thing, you and your wonderful, wonderful wife. So why don't we give me just a very brief time on how you and Steve connected. Well, that's an interesting story because it touches on my upbringing to a degree. folks, I guess our age. I was raised in a church background. But it was always interesting that at church, I was faced with the decision quite often, do I want to go to heaven or do I want to go to hell? And I said, well, I'll take the heaven part. Thank you very much. But for many of us in that camp, it never really got far. It was kind of an intellectual, I like to do that. So I had an event in my life when I was 16 that kind of turned me against the concept of God. My mother came down with cancer and she passed away, and I went through a lot of emotions related to how could God be there and allow something like this to happen. Anyhow, by the time I hit Harvard, I was pretty much a skeptic, agnostic, enjoying all the fruit and benefits of what the wayward boy would like to have. Eat, drink, and be merry because you might have... classes on

6:40 Monday. But I had something happen at Harvard. And it's interesting how God keeps track of us and knows exactly how to knock the wheels off our wagon to get our attention. He's good at it. And he did that in my life. And so I prayed the prayer when I was at Harvard from the heart. And it was kind of, God, if you're real, I want to know you. And that made the change. I bought a book called The Bible. at Harvard Bookstore and took it in my room, started reading it. But I knew I needed to go to church. I just had that prompting. But this was during the Vietnam War, and I would walk into churches around Cambridge, and they were debating the Vietnam War. And I knew that that wasn't really church. So I was searching around for some place to go. And as I got up early on Sunday morning, nobody got up early at Harvard for breakfast on Sunday.

7:35 I looked around and there were three other guys there for breakfast. One of whom was Steve Douglass and two other guys, Jim Highschool and Larry Edge. And we connected and they invited me to a Bible study. And I believe Steve was leading it. And that's really what got me into discipleship. I learned later that was part of Campus Crusade for Christ. I really got to know Steve well because I'd been in the Bible study about a month, and they determined that I should be the speaker at College Life, which was the big event once a month at Harvard College. And of course, I'd never spoken before. I also had a problem stuttering.

8:24 But I was so excited to share my faith that I forgot I had that problem. Steve said, well, Bruce, I'll coach you. I'll equip you to do this. So Steve said, now, Bruce, some people come in here that are world famous and they can take X amount of time, 30 or 40 minutes. You're just a rookie. You're getting started. And I'll make sure that you do OK. So Steve was the emcee. And when I got up to speak, I didn't stutter. And I haven't stuttered since. Wow. God knew exactly. what it would take to kind of get me in the ministry of teaching and speaking, and that's what I've been doing ever since. But it was Steve that had the initial coaching assignment for me. Kind of the humorous part of that was, as I got into my story, I forgot how to close it. So when you're speaking and you don't know how to close it, you just keep speaking. Keep going, keep going. Yes, and so we had a very long affair that evening. But anyhow, Steve coached me through it. And from that, we basically decided to room together our second year at the business school, all four of us. And that's where we were challenged to consider a graduate research report on a nonprofit. And we chose Campus Crusade for Christ and put 800 man hours into it. And God called both me and Steve to go full time to help

9:56 implement it. The starting salary, I believe, was $2 .85 a month, and you had to raise it. Yeah, yeah. And my buddies at Harvard, and of course, Steve was a Baker Scholar, so he was top 2%. But my buddy said, Cook, why would you do that? And I said, well, it was the only place I could make that kind of money, which was true. So Steve and I joined together, and then we ended up rooming together out at San Bernardino. And for many years had a great relationship of enjoying company of each other, but also helping reshape some of the areas of Campus Crusade that needed to be worked on. So we connected, and he was the one that kind of got me into my growth as a Christian. I'm grateful that he did that, because knowing you and Donna has been a wonderful joy.

10:55 Speaking of Donna, tell us briefly about your family. Yes. Donna and I met on a blind date in Dallas, Texas. I was on the staff at Crusade. She was in a singles Bible study. And over nine months, three different groups of people tried to get us together, and we finally did. And I was delighted when we went out for our first date. She said she was joining staff because I didn't see how you could. marry somebody and bring them into poverty without their will to agree to do that. So we got married and lived at Arrowhead Springs our first year and then moved to Atlanta to start a project, which was the I Found It campaign, which was the Here's Life America, which was Here's Life World. Bill Bright, I worked for, and he said, I'll let you go to Atlanta to start the project. if you'll come back in 18 months. And 53 years later, I'm still in Atlanta. So I never went back. We ended up going in a different direction after about seven or eight years with Campus Crusade. We had a delightful experience there. But we have been in Atlanta for 53 years and recently moved to Birmingham, Alabama, where our daughter resides with two of our grandchildren. The other option, as we age out, we try to locate near our family

12:25 so they can take care of us. Our other option was our son lives in New York City where he also has two grandchildren of ours. So the choice was Birmingham or New York. And Birmingham kind of won out. Yeah. I have one there too. Yeah. It's a great thing. Well. Let's get into what we want to talk about for these wonderful listeners, and that is this book that you have written called Follow the Evidence. Tell us, what is that? How did that come about? And then we'll get into some specifics. Yeah, I guess for years I've been interested in apologetics because quite often when you're sharing your faith, Not always, but you want to be able to respond to questions that people have. But this particular book was a product of a cruise that my wife and I took two years ago to Alaska. And we were on Silver Sea and they had different folks on board to speak when we were at our days on the sea. James Carville, who many people know as a kind of a political pundit. He's on the liberal side, bald head, wears an LSU shirt and hat. His wife was

13:58 with him, and she's the intelligent one. She's a conservative. But I went for the first presentation, and he's up there, and they're talking together. And I couldn't relate to his. political beliefs, nor his style or anything else. But I observed that after he spoke, people came up. They were trying to get selfies. They were trying to get his autograph. And I just didn't want to have any part of that. But as I was leaving the auditorium, I had this still small voice that said, Cook, you need to talk to it. And being just like Jonah, I ran in the other direction the rest of the cruise until the final day. I'm up on the top deck doing a walk around. I turned the corner and he's standing there. Had no place to hide.

14:50 And I had observed that he took his meals alone. His wife had her meals in the cabin and he was always eating alone. So there was a group of about 10 of us that were getting together for happy hour before dinner. And I just mentioned to him, I said, look, there's a group of us. We'd love to have you join us if you don't have anything to do. Now, I never thought. A personality like that would step into a group of strangers and be vulnerable to all kind of verbal attacks and other things. But he said, yeah, yeah, I kind of like to do that. So I'm thinking, well, maybe he really will come. So I go down early to the lounge and put together 10 chairs so that we can have some quiet place to discuss. As I look up, he's at the bar. And I wave him over.

15:40 He comes and sits down. What I didn't know was that the rest of our group had set up their chairs on the other side of the lounge. So James Carville and I sit down together, alone. And I was determined we weren't going down the political discussion route. So I said, James, tell me about your background. How'd you end up at LSU? He basically said, well, you know, I didn't have any money. I'm an in -state guy, and that's where I had to go to get an education. And I said, well, I can relate to that. I said, I didn't have any money, and I went to Georgia Tech because I could be on the co -op program and work my way through. He said, well, what'd you do after that? I said, well, I realized I wasn't a good engineer, so I went to Harvard Business School to get an MBA.

16:27 He said, what'd you do after that? I said, you really want to know? So I told him my faith story. And when I finished, it was crickets. That's a word for total silence. And I pivoted to James. I said, James, were you raised in any particular religious background? He said, oh, yeah, I was raised in this, you know, background of a lot of rules and regulations, so forth. But he said, you know, it was a bunch of junk. And I said, well, James, have you ever read the Bible? He said, oh, the Bible's put together hundreds of years after Jesus. A group of guys wanted to come together and start a new brand of religion.

17:07 Well, that wasn't going very far. Yeah, doesn't sound like it. But I had this impression to ask him this question. I said, James, you and I are about the same age. We just turned 80. I said, you ever think about what's going to happen when we die? And his whole demeanor, facial, everything changed. And he said, I think about that a lot. I said, well, James, if I could find a book to send to you that dealt with some of your questions about the existence of God and Christianity and other issues, would you read it? And I said, don't tell me you're going to read it if you're not. He said, yeah, I'll read it, but keep it short. So I came back to Atlanta looking around for an apologetic book. Now, like many listeners, We've all been to the apologetic bookshelf, and there's really some great thick books. But I had tried that with different folks also that weren't necessarily prepared to read through hundreds of pages. Right. I think most of those books are designed for believers. So I knew I had to come up with something that would engage him, not turn him off, had to be short and captivating.

18:28 I couldn't find one, so I decided to write one. But here was the twist. In business school, there was a popular book called The One -Minute Manager. There was another book called Who Moved My Cheese? And it was a fictional account of a nonfiction principle. And so rather than just write another apologetic book, I thought, well, can we create a plot that would be captivating? that would keep the person engaged, that would affirm their position, but at the same time have truth that you can present. Yeah. So the book became following two guys that had gone to college together. One's a believer and one's a skeptic. They find themselves on a cruise, believe it or not. And the cruise is sponsored by a fictitious group called the Faith and Science Alliance. And on the cruise, They go to presentations presented by different professors and renowned experts in different fields, many of which relate to the issues that Carville was wrestling with. How do you know there's a God? Where did all this begin? Can you really believe that there's life after death?

19:46 What about the Bible? Just a series of things. Now, here's the difference in the book. When I have tried to use apologetics, even with family members that I would put in the prodigal category, I get no takes because it's like, come over here, open your mouth, and I'm going to push this down. But the plot line of this book recognizes the validity of the skeptic's position. And in that process, you're affirming where they are, but you're going to counter that. with a presentation made by a professor or person of credentials. And then what's really interesting in the book is after these presentations, the two friends have a chance to discuss it. And in their discussion, I've tried to remember and record all the different ways that skeptics have pushed back on these various topics. So in the book, you have a chance to listen and read to that, listen to that, and at the same time, hear the solution. But what you'll observe in the book, it's a process. And the skeptic over a period of time starts to become more open. So that was the genesis of writing the book. And I didn't just do it for Carville because I started to think in my own situation, I have a number of family members and friends that I've tried to share Christ with. I've taken to church. And let's say with prodigals, they've been taken throughout different stages of church

21:18 life, perhaps. But now they've gone in a different direction. So what do you do next? And it's very challenging. Yes. And the challenge in what you do next is quite often they can feel like a project that I'm coming after you to bring you back in. And so and they intend even more than that. Exactly right. So the intent of this book is to have something that is intriguing and attractive. And as James Carver would say, short. I mean, this is not a long book. But that would keep their interest. And again, I want to use this phrase, acknowledge perhaps the position they're in. So if you go online and Google, is God real?

22:05 You'll get a skeptic website and they will have some of the best apologetics against God. So what you're doing is with this thing, basically saying, you know, look at this and read it. And people that I've used, I've given the book to that would be in that position. We have another family member that has gone through four divorces. He has been witnessed to by so many different people. He finally told us, don't ever talk to me about God again. I've had it. I'm going a different way. So I sent him my book and he got back to us and said, I've read it not once, but twice. And he said, for the first time. I feel like I'm starting to understand what this position is about God. I've got another guy I've played golf with the other day from a non -evangelical background. And he was a little nervous about being with me. We started a Bible study in our community. And I said, well, let's go play golf.

23:09 And so afterwards I said, hey, I've written this book. Why don't you take a look at it and let me know what you think. So we got back again, another round of golf. And I said, what'd you think? He said, well, he said, I always believed in God, but I didn't understand the back part of your book. Now, the back part shows that our skeptic friend comes to faith. And this guy in his religious background had never understood how to come to faith. And then the end of the book has the gospel of John. So I said. Listen, what I want you to do is read the Gospel of John. Now, if you've ever tried to leave that thought with someone, typically it's, well, where'd I find the Gospel of John? And that's why I try to include it in the book. So I say, well, just Gospel of John, next time we play golf. So what I'm seeing is that if anybody's at all interested, this is going to captivate them and it takes them along where they are. They're not going to feel like you're opening their mouth and pushing this down their throat. And I think that's what could be used in many family situations where you're trying to have another point of discussion with, let's say, a prodigal or a family member that's gone in a different direction. That's all true. But now I want us to go to some of what's in chapter... by chapter, not all of them, but a couple of them. And as I read, it was like,

24:44 even questions, those of us who are walking with the Lord and have for most of our lives, you still, things happen. And you say, where is God in this? And how is God allowing this? And why doesn't he intervene? And there's just doubts, but. This takes scientific evidence, one thing, one topic after another, that will help people see what is the reality of the science about how the whole universe is, how things grow, how people are, all of those things. How do you...

25:31 The scientific... through each one takes you to a place where at the end, it's like this couldn't have happened without someone who made it happen, someone who created, someone who caused that it's physically not possible. And that was just for me, just like that is not only affirmation of what I believe, but. For the people in my life that I would seek to share Christ with, it's been a beautiful way to say, just read this.

26:12 And it's easy reading. It's not like I am not a great intellectual. It's not over my head. It's definitely where I could grasp what it was saying, and I could see that it could make a difference in my prodigal's life. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great... way to view the book for a believer. And I would say, read the book first. Get it first before you want to give it to somebody else. But to your point, I think the key thing is to have a faith that is substantial. It's informed. It's not a blind leap of faith.

26:53 And unfortunately, many times with prodigals, and we've had them in our family, Their church experience may have been more in just believe. There's no real underpinning. So we had a family member that went off the tracks, and I had an interview. I just talked to him about it. He said, well, when I was in the eighth grade, this teacher came to our class and talked about how that Christianity really was not a valid basis of faith. And he started listing all of these things. And this family member said, well, I'd never heard it like that before. Now, here's what happens. The teacher had a position of respect.

27:40 And at that age, when they're teenagers and get a little older, you know, mom and dad have lost it. So it's coming from the teacher. And he said, for the first time, I realized that what I had been taught didn't really have a basis. That stood up in the academic or school world. Now, to come back to your point, Judy, what we're trying to do in each of the chapters is to lay out very clearly the difference between an informed face. Yes. From a scientific standpoint versus a skeptical position. So just take the point of how the universe came about. In this particular chapter. Way back in the 30s and even before that, it was assumed that the universe had always been here. It was eternal. So the logic was, well, you don't need a God if the universe has always been here. But then they started to realize that the universe had a beginning. There was a point in time when the universe came to be.

28:45 And the science labeled this the Big Bang. So about 12 and a half billion years ago, scientifically, they can document that the universe had a beginning. But where'd that come from? And typically, the skeptic would say, well, certain things happen in science that produced it. One of the theories that's common now is called the quantum vacuum theory. And that basically says that before the universe came to be, there was something there. And this something was at a low level of size. We can't even contemplate how small this was, but it was a source of energy. And the energy got so agitated that it produced the universe.

29:33 Now, you and I would say that's kind of crazy, but that's the latest thought that's been embraced by the skeptic world. When you put against that just scientific basis of how energy was required. to produce mass. That's Einstein's theory of relativity. Then in this particular chapter, you have this discussion between, well, does it make sense that something just went poof and created the universe? Or does it make sense that energy had to be applied to create the masses? And that's how kind of we take it, that we present both sides. And you kind of see, if you're reading this thing, where science really validates. the source of energy, and we would say the creator.

30:20 And so that's what we do chapter after chapter like that. We just kind of show the logic and the scientific basis. I think one of the big things for prodigals, too, is that they're choosing to live their life their own way. Well, the question there is, is there life after death? Is there any accountability? And for many of us in the faith community, that's a sign of, Faith. You have to kind of, okay. But we have this one chapter called Consciousness. Where does it come from? And we begin this chapter with a Dr. Grayson, who's a psychiatrist in training at University of Virginia. And he has this experience, and this is true, he has this experience where one night he's called in to talk to a girl that attempted suicide by taking over medications. And she's totally out of it. She's not responsive. And the next day, he comes back and she says, you know, I remember you being here. And I remember that you had a little mustard stain on your tie.

31:29 And I remember that you were talking with my friend down the hall. And he's thinking, when she came in, she basically was flatlined. She had what we would call a near -death experience. How did she know all of this? And it started him on a search through the University of Virginia where they've documented thousands of cases of people that have had near -death experiences, all of whom will come back and talk about something beyond this life. And that chapter opens the door to the fact that there's scientific leanings. arrows that point to life after death. Well, if that's true, then what kind of life is there?

32:15 So again, it's another example of just using science to pry open the possibility of the validity of a God that loves them. And of course, as we get it further in the book, then we start to talk about the validity of the Bible, how it stands up, who is Jesus, what are his claims, and then we conclude with, is God knowable? You know, we've taken you this far. So now, you know, is this creator God knowable? So that's kind of how we're approaching the chapters, Judy. Well, that ending one, is God knowable? Because that's a question that they have a lot of times.

32:56 And people are just like, you know, maybe there is a God, but, you know, he's just way too beyond what our life here is. And yet you bring into that realities, scientific proofs, realities that there is something behind the universe. There is something behind how things hold together, where the animals came from. And people, you know, it's not all just any evolution. It is a creation. And God is responsible. And then.

33:36 Life after death, it's a pretty scary thing. Yeah, we kind of get into that chapter because at their age, you pointed out, the age of these folks on the ship are probably in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're starting to go back to reunions at their college, but yet they learn of friends that are passing away. Yeah. And so the natural subject becomes, well, gee, what do you think? What's going on here? So that introduces that whole deal that, okay, so what happens to these people? But probably one of my favorite chapters is built around DNA, which is becoming more and more understood in the scientific world.

34:23 And the more you understand DNA, the more it points to there had to be somebody that coded it. It's a language. Cite Dr. Anthony Flew, who for decades was the leading protagonist of atheism in the world. He led in writing articles, journals, he debated. And at a presentation at Columbia University in New York, years later, he stood up and said, I now believe there's a God. And he explained how science has better understood DNA as a language. He said, you can't have chemistry produce a language. Language has to have a coder.

35:12 It has to have somebody that writes this. And so he said, I just got, I just, and he's the one that I got the title of the book from. He says, I had to follow the evidence. And then he became an advocate of a creator God, just with the scientific discoveries of DNA. That's marvelous to know, you know. I have plenty of skeptics in my family. And I know that you have had also. And so that kind of information gives an opening for making sense to them. And the story of this. scientists should go from a total atheist to a believer is a wonderful story to be able to tell. Yeah, I think I like your word opening because I think, you know, the question is, how does a prodigal come back to faith? You know, is it convincing them that God exists?

36:22 Is it a number of different things? Kind of the way I view it is Philippians 1, 6, I believe is the verse. It says, he who began a work in you will complete it in the day of Christ Jesus. Well, the question is how? So if God started to work with our prodigals when they were young, he's promising that then he's going to bring them back. And the question is, how is he going to do that? And I believe, as we all do, evangelicals, that it has to be the work of the Holy Spirit. Yes. But how does the Spirit do that? And so I think we don't want to limit God. I think that these kind of tools, like my book, can become something that opens the door. It gives them a different slant. It doesn't let them hide behind a false argument that can be exposed. And so I would encourage anybody that has a prodigal.

37:24 to basically get the book and then consider how the best way is to present the book to that prodigal. Can you give them a couple of two or three ideas on that? Well, in my family, it was a big open door because I wrote it. All right, Dad, we'll read your book. Yeah, I said, here's a twist also. Younger generations don't read. They listen. So after my first round of, have you read the book? No, I only listen. So I put it in a audio book form. It's not yet available on Amazon in that form, but it's in form. So I'm sending that one out. And what I'm doing with some of my younger skeptics, I'll just get with them. You can listen to a chapter. In about 15 minutes. With someone?

38:25 Yeah. And it is so intriguing because, again, you're not being preached at, lectured at, or whatever. Hey, you might like to listen to this with me. And you just say, this is a chapter. Would you be interested in learning about this? Let's listen to it. And I did that with one of my family members not too long ago. And just the questions started coming out. I think the key thing here is opening communication. They do not need apologetic books thrown at them, but a tool that can open communication and pivot it away from the traditional Christian tools to what the science has to say about issues that maybe they've discarded. And I think that because a lot of... Those who have rejected, who've grown up in a Christian family and going to church and stuff and then decided, no, I don't want that. I don't believe that. Some of that comes from just being challenged intellectually and going to school or with friends. Some of it comes from feeling it being pushed down your throat, so to speak, that it's a bunch of rules and the things that you need to follow. comes from feeling put down or condemned even because of rejecting,

39:57 and that people even have been raised in such a structure that they felt constrained from who they were, and so it was hard for them to want anything to do with it. So they have all these reasons why they shouldn't listen to you. Because they've listened before and they didn't like what happened. But this is a whole new approach to say, just listen to what science is saying. Follow the evidence of where did this come from? How did this happen? And open a door for conversation that's based. not on somebody's rules, but on some reality of how things happened and how they got to be here. And so I would think for the listeners that especially that we're talking to today, and many of them would find themselves in this kind of place with their loved ones, that this is exactly the kind of approach that can help if we can learn. to not tell them, and you need to believe or you need to do this, but let them listen and absorb some new realities and some new explanation of why things are here and how they are. Let their minds soar, in a

41:29 sense, beyond what they've ever thought of related to Christian faith. And so I just... When I was reading your book, Bruce, I just was like, this is so wonderful. Whether they're prodigals or not, like they're not making terrible choices. They're being responsible adults and that kind of thing. But they have walked away from knowing God and trusting God. And that creates some barriers sometimes. So, yeah. Any last? on what you'd want those people to hear as they consider, all right, this is a whole new idea. I'm going to pursue it. Well, my experience is that the first step, if they're at all interested in taking this approach, either with prodigals or friends or skeptics, get the book yourself. Yes. I actually was making a presentation at Georgia Tech to about 50 fraternity guys. And the challenge was, I said, how many of you have friends that are skeptics that you think this kind of information would be helpful? Maybe just talk about it. And so 35 raised their hands. So I handed out 35 books. And I said, Matt, here's the twist is

43:00 I want you to. Think about, identify a person that you think needs to hear this kind of message this way and start up a conversation with them. And I went back and checked on a few of the guys that I had their names. We were reaching the end of a quarter, so everybody was heading out of school. So this one guy said, well, we sat down and we were trying to talk about it. But I realized I needed to read it first. Yes. That sounds kind of obvious start point. So I would say start there. And then I think God will give you approaches and ways that you can consider how best to share it with a prodigal or someone that's skeptical or has issues. But I think just reading it yourself. I was at a food market the other day in Atlanta. turned a corner and there were two college students there selling chocolate.

44:00 And I'm not a chocolate kind of guy, but my wife is. And she wasn't there. So we started talking. And this one guy from the Middle East, he says, I'm from Pakistan. I said, what part? He said, Karachi. I said, well, I've been there. He said, is that right? I said, yeah, many, many, many years ago. I said, you must come from the Muslim faith. He said, yeah, but I'm not really committed to it. In fact, I'm kind of looking around. I'm going to be researching Hinduism next week. I said, well, have you ever thought about Jesus? He said, no, but I need to. I said, well, let me ask you to consider reading something. And he took his phone out right then. He pulled up the book, went to Amazon when I told him about the book, and he ordered the book. And I said, now, when you finish reading the book, you need to read the Gospel of John. Yeah. But it's in the book. It's there for you. Yeah, it's just one thing. So, again, it's just a way that you can use it as an outreach tool or any way that somebody has interest and it's something they want to pursue and just see what God does with it. I think the whole thing is a faith venture, but this is an intended way to open that conversation.

45:21 It's not going to take them to the living fully this new life yet. That may take some time, but it's the first step to get them beyond any intellectual objections that they have or any like, well, I just don't see how I can believe that, and get them to that first step. And then there's God. who's got an open mind, an open heart before him or her to be able to begin to draw them into.

46:01 It's more than just a scientific intellectual conversation. It will move into, hopefully, a fact that we're talking about a love relationship with the man who created you. For many people, they need that proof or that evidence to follow, to believe that this is possible. But then they have the opportunity to discover its relationship. It's more than just, I believe, it is a new kind of relationship. As I was researching the book, one of the questions that pushes a lot of people away from considering God Christ is the problem of pain and suffering in the world. Oh, there's plenty of that, isn't there? Yeah. So we devote one chapter to that. And the way we do it is that a person that's on the cruise has gone through a recent death of their spouse. And she has an encounter with our two people that are on the ship that we're following, the believer and the skeptic. And so we present this whole issue through her eyes, what she experienced, what she's learning, trying to help look at a different way of how pain and suffering fits into God's economy and

47:34 what the purpose is. So that you're not just pushing it away, saying, well, look, either God's not powerful enough to stop it or he doesn't care enough to stop it. And it moves you to a different way of viewing pain and suffering. And again, that's what we're trying to do in each chapter is kind of turn it in a different direction from just maybe the way somebody's understood it or interpreted or applied it. And this would be a good chapter, too, to take a little time to go through. Oh, thanks for mentioning that because I agree. That's a great chapter because pain and suffering are there. Yeah. And all of us experience it in some way. or other to different degrees from different things, but it's real. And that is one of the things that causes people to walk away, turn away, reject entirely. And so good insight, good advice there.

48:35 Any last words you want to say at this point before I wrap up? Well, thank you for the privilege of being with you and being able to participate in a podcast trying to reach prodigals. Trying to reach the people who love prodigals. Trying to reach the people that love prodigals. Get the message out. Love them into the kingdom. So I applaud you for what you're doing as a ministry, the impact you're having. And hopefully this tool of a book could be another resource that could take us all in another step of praying for and working with. our children, prodigals, that really are waiting for that time to hear the right thing, have another thought cross their mind, look at it in a new direction from a scientific standpoint that maybe would be more open than if they had the typical approach that they maybe have already heard before. So thank you again, Judy, for allowing me to share about the book, and we trust that God will use it to reach many people. Thank you. Thank you, Bruce. And I agree that God, I think he really can use it. And partly because I'm aware that so many of the people who love a prodigal, they may not be doing the usual destructive kinds of things to themselves and people around them. But it's just they said,

50:06 I don't believe it. I don't know how you can believe it. And you're providing. a resource that's readable. Again, it's not like over our heads. I could read it and get it. And so I think that that will be a tremendous thing, first of all, to help the family members and friends who love someone who has said, I can't believe it, that they can. read it themselves first. Like you said, that's really going to help. People will say, if you haven't even read it, why should I? But then as they have opportunity to say, have something I just read that's just really been an encouragement to me, and I would love for you to read it, and I'd love to get your input, and not be pushy. but to be engaging to get people to read it. Now, I'm planning to give away three of these books. We'll have a drawing.

51:12 And so if you've been listening to the podcast before, you know you go to the show notes afterwards where we'll have more information on Bruce and the book and how to sign up to be in the drawing. And we'll be delighted to send three books to. those whose names we draw. And we would love to hear, and I know Bruce would love to hear, how it goes, how you have been touched by it and how you have been able to make some progress or encourage somebody who's been a skeptic or somebody who's just totally rejected. We'd love to hear how God uses this book in your life and in their lives. So be sure and let us know. Bruce has written a couple other books, if you get interested, and that'll be listed in the show notes as well, so that you'll find out how amazing he is, really, even more than you know now. Bruce, thank you so much. I'm just excited for our listeners to take action. And you know, I always say this at the end of our podcast. Don't just say, oh, that was nice. Write down something you're going to do as a result of what you've heard today, because then it will have some impact and go forward in the direction that you'd like to see

52:45 change, maybe in your own life, maybe in a... somebody in your family or a good friend. So be the one who can take that next step. Thanks. Thanks, Bruce. Thank you. God bless you.