Follow the Evidence with Bruce Cook

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Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast.

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I'm so glad that you've joined us, and I think

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you are in for such a helpful conversation today.

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I am just thrilled to be able to do this and

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let you get some new information that might be

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helpful as you walk through life with or without

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the presence of a prodigal that you love very

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much. If you love a prodigal, you can discover

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help and hope for your wilderness journey right

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here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast,

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and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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As you listen today, you know I say this every

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time, be alert to ideas or some actions you can

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take that could be helpful for you. and your

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family on the current journey that you're on.

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When I wrote my book, When You Love a Prodigal,

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and I know many of you have read it, and I started

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this podcast, we were all mostly concerned about

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our teenage sons and daughters who were caught

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up in rebellion, bad choices, addictions, lots

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of other things. And that's still true for many.

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However, it's also true that the awful lot of

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the prodigals that I'm getting words about and

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finding out about are no longer in that situation,

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even though some of those things are still true.

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They've just kind of decided they can't believe

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anything that we've tried to say. encourage them

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to believe the way that we raise them, perhaps,

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or the spiritual input in their lives and taking

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them to church, all of that, because they've

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said, who knows? How do you think? No, it's true

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at all. And so they've just rejected it. And

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some have gone further than rejecting what we

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believe and what they had once said they believe

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to the fact that they feel that maybe they've

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been pushed too far or they just can't maintain

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the relationship. And I know so many, so many

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whose kids, as they become adults, have not only

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turned from the Lord, but have turned from their

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family. And they have nothing to do with them

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or very little to do with them. And that is just

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so heartbreaking. So we want to give you a little

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bit of input that perhaps It's certainly in your

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prayers, but perhaps when you do have conversations

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with them, you'll have some new information and

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some new approaches that might just make a difference

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in helping them to realize maybe we know more

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about what we're talking about than they think

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we do. So our guest today is Bruce Cook. Now,

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Bruce is a long, long time friend of mine. Because

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he was roommate, best man in our wedding, good

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friends for all the years with my sweet, wonderful

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husband. Steve and Bruce and I both miss him.

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I know. I probably miss him more, though. I'm

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pretty sure I do. Bruce has written a book that

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I think you're going to be so excited about.

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Now, he's done a lot of different things. He

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graduated from Georgia Tech, and then he went

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to Harvard Business School, where he and Steve

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connected. And then he joined Campus Crusade

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for Christ, CRU. He said it was because he was

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just going with Steve, but I think God called

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him. And he worked with CRU for a while. He worked

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with Bill Bright, the founder and president of

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CRU. He just helped do a lot of startup kinds

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of things within the ministry and to help from

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his Harvard Business School education to help

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our staff around the world as we were seeking

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to grow the ministry globally. He's also the

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author of three books. He founded and led a business

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ministry called Leadership Dynamics. A lot of

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other things, which you can read in the show

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notes, because I put them there. I just didn't

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want to take up our whole time telling all the

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things Bruce has done. But he has written this

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wonderful new book, and you're going to hear

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about it. Welcome, Bruce. Thank you, Judy. Delighted

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to be here, and we do miss Steve. Yeah, we do.

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And I'm proud of the work you're carrying on.

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And delighted I could be a part of this. Well,

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I would say the same for you. It's a great thing,

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you and your wonderful, wonderful wife. So why

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don't we give me just a very brief time on how

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you and Steve connected. Well, that's an interesting

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story because it touches on my upbringing to

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a degree. folks, I guess our age. I was raised

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in a church background. But it was always interesting

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that at church, I was faced with the decision

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quite often, do I want to go to heaven or do

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I want to go to hell? And I said, well, I'll

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take the heaven part. Thank you very much. But

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for many of us in that camp, it never really

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got far. It was kind of an intellectual, I like

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to do that. So I had an event in my life when

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I was 16 that kind of turned me against the concept

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of God. My mother came down with cancer and she

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passed away, and I went through a lot of emotions

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related to how could God be there and allow something

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like this to happen. Anyhow, by the time I hit

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Harvard, I was pretty much a skeptic, agnostic,

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enjoying all the fruit and benefits of what the

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wayward boy would like to have. Eat, drink, and

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be merry because you might have... classes on

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Monday. But I had something happen at Harvard.

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And it's interesting how God keeps track of us

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and knows exactly how to knock the wheels off

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our wagon to get our attention. He's good at

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it. And he did that in my life. And so I prayed

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the prayer when I was at Harvard from the heart.

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And it was kind of, God, if you're real, I want

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to know you. And that made the change. I bought

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a book called The Bible. at Harvard Bookstore

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and took it in my room, started reading it. But

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I knew I needed to go to church. I just had that

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prompting. But this was during the Vietnam War,

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and I would walk into churches around Cambridge,

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and they were debating the Vietnam War. And I

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knew that that wasn't really church. So I was

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searching around for some place to go. And as

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I got up early on Sunday morning, nobody got

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up early at Harvard for breakfast on Sunday.

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I looked around and there were three other guys

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there for breakfast. One of whom was Steve Douglass

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and two other guys, Jim Highschool and Larry

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Edge. And we connected and they invited me to

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a Bible study. And I believe Steve was leading

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it. And that's really what got me into discipleship.

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I learned later that was part of Campus Crusade

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for Christ. I really got to know Steve well because

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I'd been in the Bible study about a month, and

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they determined that I should be the speaker

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at College Life, which was the big event once

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a month at Harvard College. And of course, I'd

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never spoken before. I also had a problem stuttering.

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But I was so excited to share my faith that I

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forgot I had that problem. Steve said, well,

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Bruce, I'll coach you. I'll equip you to do this.

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So Steve said, now, Bruce, some people come in

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here that are world famous and they can take

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X amount of time, 30 or 40 minutes. You're just

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a rookie. You're getting started. And I'll make

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sure that you do OK. So Steve was the emcee.

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And when I got up to speak, I didn't stutter.

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And I haven't stuttered since. Wow. God knew

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exactly. what it would take to kind of get me

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in the ministry of teaching and speaking, and

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that's what I've been doing ever since. But it

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was Steve that had the initial coaching assignment

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for me. Kind of the humorous part of that was,

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as I got into my story, I forgot how to close

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it. So when you're speaking and you don't know

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how to close it, you just keep speaking. Keep

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going, keep going. Yes, and so we had a very

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long affair that evening. But anyhow, Steve coached

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me through it. And from that, we basically decided

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to room together our second year at the business

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school, all four of us. And that's where we were

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challenged to consider a graduate research report

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on a nonprofit. And we chose Campus Crusade for

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Christ and put 800 man hours into it. And God

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called both me and Steve to go full time to help

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implement it. The starting salary, I believe,

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was $2 .85 a month, and you had to raise it.

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Yeah, yeah. And my buddies at Harvard, and of

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course, Steve was a Baker Scholar, so he was

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top 2%. But my buddy said, Cook, why would you

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do that? And I said, well, it was the only place

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I could make that kind of money, which was true.

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So Steve and I joined together, and then we ended

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up rooming together out at San Bernardino. And

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for many years had a great relationship of enjoying

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company of each other, but also helping reshape

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some of the areas of Campus Crusade that needed

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to be worked on. So we connected, and he was

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the one that kind of got me into my growth as

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a Christian. I'm grateful that he did that, because

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knowing you and Donna has been a wonderful joy.

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Speaking of Donna, tell us briefly about your

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family. Yes. Donna and I met on a blind date

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in Dallas, Texas. I was on the staff at Crusade.

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She was in a singles Bible study. And over nine

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months, three different groups of people tried

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to get us together, and we finally did. And I

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was delighted when we went out for our first

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date. She said she was joining staff because

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I didn't see how you could. marry somebody and

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bring them into poverty without their will to

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agree to do that. So we got married and lived

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at Arrowhead Springs our first year and then

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moved to Atlanta to start a project, which was

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the I Found It campaign, which was the Here's

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Life America, which was Here's Life World. Bill

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Bright, I worked for, and he said, I'll let you

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go to Atlanta to start the project. if you'll

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come back in 18 months. And 53 years later, I'm

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still in Atlanta. So I never went back. We ended

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up going in a different direction after about

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seven or eight years with Campus Crusade. We

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had a delightful experience there. But we have

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been in Atlanta for 53 years and recently moved

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to Birmingham, Alabama, where our daughter resides

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with two of our grandchildren. The other option,

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as we age out, we try to locate near our family

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so they can take care of us. Our other option

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was our son lives in New York City where he also

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has two grandchildren of ours. So the choice

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was Birmingham or New York. And Birmingham kind

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of won out. Yeah. I have one there too. Yeah.

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It's a great thing. Well. Let's get into what

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we want to talk about for these wonderful listeners,

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and that is this book that you have written called

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Follow the Evidence. Tell us, what is that? How

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did that come about? And then we'll get into

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some specifics. Yeah, I guess for years I've

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been interested in apologetics because quite

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often when you're sharing your faith, Not always,

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but you want to be able to respond to questions

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that people have. But this particular book was

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a product of a cruise that my wife and I took

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two years ago to Alaska. And we were on Silver

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Sea and they had different folks on board to

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speak when we were at our days on the sea. James

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Carville, who many people know as a kind of a

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political pundit. He's on the liberal side, bald

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head, wears an LSU shirt and hat. His wife was

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with him, and she's the intelligent one. She's

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a conservative. But I went for the first presentation,

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and he's up there, and they're talking together.

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And I couldn't relate to his. political beliefs,

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nor his style or anything else. But I observed

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that after he spoke, people came up. They were

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trying to get selfies. They were trying to get

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his autograph. And I just didn't want to have

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any part of that. But as I was leaving the auditorium,

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I had this still small voice that said, Cook,

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you need to talk to it. And being just like Jonah,

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I ran in the other direction the rest of the

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cruise until the final day. I'm up on the top

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deck doing a walk around. I turned the corner

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and he's standing there. Had no place to hide.

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And I had observed that he took his meals alone.

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His wife had her meals in the cabin and he was

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always eating alone. So there was a group of

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about 10 of us that were getting together for

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happy hour before dinner. And I just mentioned

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to him, I said, look, there's a group of us.

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We'd love to have you join us if you don't have

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anything to do. Now, I never thought. A personality

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like that would step into a group of strangers

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and be vulnerable to all kind of verbal attacks

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and other things. But he said, yeah, yeah, I

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kind of like to do that. So I'm thinking, well,

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maybe he really will come. So I go down early

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to the lounge and put together 10 chairs so that

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we can have some quiet place to discuss. As I

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look up, he's at the bar. And I wave him over.

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He comes and sits down. What I didn't know was

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that the rest of our group had set up their chairs

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on the other side of the lounge. So James Carville

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and I sit down together, alone. And I was determined

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we weren't going down the political discussion

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route. So I said, James, tell me about your background.

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How'd you end up at LSU? He basically said, well,

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you know, I didn't have any money. I'm an in

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-state guy, and that's where I had to go to get

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an education. And I said, well, I can relate

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to that. I said, I didn't have any money, and

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I went to Georgia Tech because I could be on

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the co -op program and work my way through. He

00:16:20.389 --> 00:16:22.509
said, well, what'd you do after that? I said,

00:16:22.549 --> 00:16:24.830
well, I realized I wasn't a good engineer, so

00:16:24.830 --> 00:16:26.870
I went to Harvard Business School to get an MBA.

00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:30.350
He said, what'd you do after that? I said, you

00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:33.529
really want to know? So I told him my faith story.

00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:36.710
And when I finished, it was crickets. That's

00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:40.870
a word for total silence. And I pivoted to James.

00:16:40.929 --> 00:16:43.289
I said, James, were you raised in any particular

00:16:43.289 --> 00:16:45.470
religious background? He said, oh, yeah, I was

00:16:45.470 --> 00:16:48.889
raised in this, you know, background of a lot

00:16:48.889 --> 00:16:54.990
of rules and regulations, so forth. But he said,

00:16:55.149 --> 00:16:57.370
you know, it was a bunch of junk. And I said,

00:16:57.409 --> 00:17:00.230
well, James, have you ever read the Bible? He

00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:02.110
said, oh, the Bible's put together hundreds of

00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:04.630
years after Jesus. A group of guys wanted to

00:17:04.630 --> 00:17:06.710
come together and start a new brand of religion.

00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:11.309
Well, that wasn't going very far. Yeah, doesn't

00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:15.509
sound like it. But I had this impression to ask

00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:17.130
him this question. I said, James, you and I are

00:17:17.130 --> 00:17:20.509
about the same age. We just turned 80. I said,

00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:23.150
you ever think about what's going to happen when

00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:28.109
we die? And his whole demeanor, facial, everything

00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:30.829
changed. And he said, I think about that a lot.

00:17:32.529 --> 00:17:37.309
I said, well, James, if I could find a book to

00:17:37.309 --> 00:17:40.190
send to you that dealt with some of your questions

00:17:40.190 --> 00:17:43.150
about the existence of God and Christianity and

00:17:43.150 --> 00:17:46.289
other issues, would you read it? And I said,

00:17:46.309 --> 00:17:47.869
don't tell me you're going to read it if you're

00:17:47.869 --> 00:17:50.950
not. He said, yeah, I'll read it, but keep it

00:17:50.950 --> 00:17:55.369
short. So I came back to Atlanta looking around

00:17:55.369 --> 00:17:58.490
for an apologetic book. Now, like many listeners,

00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.960
We've all been to the apologetic bookshelf, and

00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.859
there's really some great thick books. But I

00:18:05.859 --> 00:18:08.920
had tried that with different folks also that

00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.200
weren't necessarily prepared to read through

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.579
hundreds of pages. Right. I think most of those

00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:19.640
books are designed for believers. So I knew I

00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.500
had to come up with something that would engage

00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:27.500
him, not turn him off, had to be short and captivating.

00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:31.170
I couldn't find one, so I decided to write one.

00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:35.450
But here was the twist. In business school, there

00:18:35.450 --> 00:18:38.029
was a popular book called The One -Minute Manager.

00:18:38.569 --> 00:18:40.970
There was another book called Who Moved My Cheese?

00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.849
And it was a fictional account of a nonfiction

00:18:45.849 --> 00:18:49.890
principle. And so rather than just write another

00:18:49.890 --> 00:18:52.569
apologetic book, I thought, well, can we create

00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:56.349
a plot that would be captivating? that would

00:18:56.349 --> 00:19:00.849
keep the person engaged, that would affirm their

00:19:00.849 --> 00:19:04.450
position, but at the same time have truth that

00:19:04.450 --> 00:19:10.589
you can present. Yeah. So the book became following

00:19:10.589 --> 00:19:13.269
two guys that had gone to college together. One's

00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:15.470
a believer and one's a skeptic. They find themselves

00:19:15.470 --> 00:19:18.710
on a cruise, believe it or not. And the cruise

00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:21.170
is sponsored by a fictitious group called the

00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:24.609
Faith and Science Alliance. And on the cruise,

00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.700
They go to presentations presented by different

00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:32.400
professors and renowned experts in different

00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.119
fields, many of which relate to the issues that

00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:38.920
Carville was wrestling with. How do you know

00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:43.420
there's a God? Where did all this begin? Can

00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:46.299
you really believe that there's life after death?

00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.259
What about the Bible? Just a series of things.

00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:53.400
Now, here's the difference in the book. When

00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.059
I have tried to use apologetics, even with family

00:19:57.059 --> 00:19:59.500
members that I would put in the prodigal category,

00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:04.420
I get no takes because it's like, come over here,

00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.200
open your mouth, and I'm going to push this down.

00:20:06.859 --> 00:20:11.339
But the plot line of this book recognizes the

00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:16.019
validity of the skeptic's position. And in that

00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:19.079
process, you're affirming where they are, but

00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.920
you're going to counter that. with a presentation

00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.700
made by a professor or person of credentials.

00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:27.339
And then what's really interesting in the book

00:20:27.339 --> 00:20:31.359
is after these presentations, the two friends

00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.660
have a chance to discuss it. And in their discussion,

00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.259
I've tried to remember and record all the different

00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:41.099
ways that skeptics have pushed back on these

00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:44.759
various topics. So in the book, you have a chance

00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.680
to listen and read to that, listen to that, and

00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.299
at the same time, hear the solution. But what

00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:54.079
you'll observe in the book, it's a process. And

00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.500
the skeptic over a period of time starts to become

00:20:56.500 --> 00:21:00.059
more open. So that was the genesis of writing

00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:02.339
the book. And I didn't just do it for Carville

00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:04.460
because I started to think in my own situation,

00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.619
I have a number of family members and friends

00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:11.859
that I've tried to share Christ with. I've taken

00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:15.460
to church. And let's say with prodigals, they've

00:21:15.460 --> 00:21:18.740
been taken throughout different stages of church

00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:22.509
life, perhaps. But now they've gone in a different

00:21:22.509 --> 00:21:25.609
direction. So what do you do next? And it's very

00:21:25.609 --> 00:21:29.170
challenging. Yes. And the challenge in what you

00:21:29.170 --> 00:21:31.990
do next is quite often they can feel like a project

00:21:31.990 --> 00:21:35.589
that I'm coming after you to bring you back in.

00:21:36.069 --> 00:21:40.250
And so and they intend even more than that. Exactly

00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:42.710
right. So the intent of this book is to have

00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:45.170
something that is intriguing and attractive.

00:21:45.509 --> 00:21:49.049
And as James Carver would say, short. I mean,

00:21:49.069 --> 00:21:52.799
this is not a long book. But that would keep

00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.980
their interest. And again, I want to use this

00:21:56.980 --> 00:22:00.779
phrase, acknowledge perhaps the position they're

00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:05.140
in. So if you go online and Google, is God real?

00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.980
You'll get a skeptic website and they will have

00:22:08.980 --> 00:22:13.400
some of the best apologetics against God. So

00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:16.440
what you're doing is with this thing, basically

00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.109
saying, you know, look at this and read it. And

00:22:20.109 --> 00:22:22.589
people that I've used, I've given the book to

00:22:22.589 --> 00:22:26.390
that would be in that position. We have another

00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:29.170
family member that has gone through four divorces.

00:22:30.130 --> 00:22:33.170
He has been witnessed to by so many different

00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:36.069
people. He finally told us, don't ever talk to

00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.470
me about God again. I've had it. I'm going a

00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:42.390
different way. So I sent him my book and he got

00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:44.849
back to us and said, I've read it not once, but

00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:49.200
twice. And he said, for the first time. I feel

00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.160
like I'm starting to understand what this position

00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.220
is about God. I've got another guy I've played

00:22:56.220 --> 00:23:00.960
golf with the other day from a non -evangelical

00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.660
background. And he was a little nervous about

00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:07.279
being with me. We started a Bible study in our

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.799
community. And I said, well, let's go play golf.

00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:13.099
And so afterwards I said, hey, I've written this

00:23:13.099 --> 00:23:15.019
book. Why don't you take a look at it and let

00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:17.779
me know what you think. So we got back again,

00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:20.099
another round of golf. And I said, what'd you

00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:23.319
think? He said, well, he said, I always believed

00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.880
in God, but I didn't understand the back part

00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.079
of your book. Now, the back part shows that our

00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.400
skeptic friend comes to faith. And this guy in

00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:35.440
his religious background had never understood

00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.599
how to come to faith. And then the end of the

00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:42.980
book has the gospel of John. So I said. Listen,

00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.539
what I want you to do is read the Gospel of John.

00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.559
Now, if you've ever tried to leave that thought

00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.200
with someone, typically it's, well, where'd I

00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.559
find the Gospel of John? And that's why I try

00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.380
to include it in the book. So I say, well, just

00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:00.839
Gospel of John, next time we play golf. So what

00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.539
I'm seeing is that if anybody's at all interested,

00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:07.779
this is going to captivate them and it takes

00:24:07.779 --> 00:24:10.170
them along where they are. They're not going

00:24:10.170 --> 00:24:12.549
to feel like you're opening their mouth and pushing

00:24:12.549 --> 00:24:15.829
this down their throat. And I think that's what

00:24:15.829 --> 00:24:19.329
could be used in many family situations where

00:24:19.329 --> 00:24:21.690
you're trying to have another point of discussion

00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:25.549
with, let's say, a prodigal or a family member

00:24:25.549 --> 00:24:29.509
that's gone in a different direction. That's

00:24:29.509 --> 00:24:35.809
all true. But now I want us to go to some of

00:24:35.809 --> 00:24:39.539
what's in chapter... by chapter, not all of them,

00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:44.140
but a couple of them. And as I read, it was like,

00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:49.099
even questions, those of us who are walking with

00:24:49.099 --> 00:24:52.480
the Lord and have for most of our lives, you

00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.839
still, things happen. And you say, where is God

00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.920
in this? And how is God allowing this? And why

00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.920
doesn't he intervene? And there's just doubts,

00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:11.529
but. This takes scientific evidence, one thing,

00:25:11.589 --> 00:25:16.569
one topic after another, that will help people

00:25:16.569 --> 00:25:21.750
see what is the reality of the science about

00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:26.890
how the whole universe is, how things grow, how

00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:31.069
people are, all of those things. How do you...

00:25:31.069 --> 00:25:38.519
The scientific... through each one takes you

00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:44.220
to a place where at the end, it's like this couldn't

00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:47.779
have happened without someone who made it happen,

00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.819
someone who created, someone who caused that

00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:57.160
it's physically not possible. And that was just

00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.799
for me, just like that is not only affirmation

00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.369
of what I believe, but. For the people in my

00:26:04.369 --> 00:26:07.450
life that I would seek to share Christ with,

00:26:07.529 --> 00:26:12.190
it's been a beautiful way to say, just read this.

00:26:12.329 --> 00:26:16.309
And it's easy reading. It's not like I am not

00:26:16.309 --> 00:26:19.569
a great intellectual. It's not over my head.

00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:23.390
It's definitely where I could grasp what it was

00:26:23.390 --> 00:26:26.829
saying, and I could see that it could make a

00:26:26.829 --> 00:26:30.650
difference in my prodigal's life. Yeah. Yeah,

00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:33.220
I think that's a great... way to view the book

00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:37.619
for a believer. And I would say, read the book

00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:41.099
first. Get it first before you want to give it

00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:44.500
to somebody else. But to your point, I think

00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:49.799
the key thing is to have a faith that is substantial.

00:26:50.259 --> 00:26:53.579
It's informed. It's not a blind leap of faith.

00:26:53.660 --> 00:26:56.880
And unfortunately, many times with prodigals,

00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.769
and we've had them in our family, Their church

00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:02.789
experience may have been more in just believe.

00:27:03.990 --> 00:27:07.589
There's no real underpinning. So we had a family

00:27:07.589 --> 00:27:12.750
member that went off the tracks, and I had an

00:27:12.750 --> 00:27:14.609
interview. I just talked to him about it. He

00:27:14.609 --> 00:27:17.650
said, well, when I was in the eighth grade, this

00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:21.569
teacher came to our class and talked about how

00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:27.430
that Christianity really was not a valid basis

00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:30.940
of faith. And he started listing all of these

00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:34.019
things. And this family member said, well, I'd

00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:36.740
never heard it like that before. Now, here's

00:27:36.740 --> 00:27:39.700
what happens. The teacher had a position of respect.

00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:43.920
And at that age, when they're teenagers and get

00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.680
a little older, you know, mom and dad have lost

00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:51.019
it. So it's coming from the teacher. And he said,

00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:54.059
for the first time, I realized that what I had

00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:57.670
been taught didn't really have a basis. That

00:27:57.670 --> 00:28:01.509
stood up in the academic or school world. Now,

00:28:01.509 --> 00:28:03.369
to come back to your point, Judy, what we're

00:28:03.369 --> 00:28:05.609
trying to do in each of the chapters is to lay

00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:09.210
out very clearly the difference between an informed

00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:13.829
face. Yes. From a scientific standpoint versus

00:28:13.829 --> 00:28:16.849
a skeptical position. So just take the point

00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:22.390
of how the universe came about. In this particular

00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:26.329
chapter. Way back in the 30s and even before

00:28:26.329 --> 00:28:28.589
that, it was assumed that the universe had always

00:28:28.589 --> 00:28:32.529
been here. It was eternal. So the logic was,

00:28:32.730 --> 00:28:34.809
well, you don't need a God if the universe has

00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.950
always been here. But then they started to realize

00:28:37.950 --> 00:28:40.910
that the universe had a beginning. There was

00:28:40.910 --> 00:28:44.190
a point in time when the universe came to be.

00:28:45.289 --> 00:28:49.140
And the science labeled this the Big Bang. So

00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:51.940
about 12 and a half billion years ago, scientifically,

00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:55.720
they can document that the universe had a beginning.

00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.440
But where'd that come from? And typically, the

00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.960
skeptic would say, well, certain things happen

00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:06.140
in science that produced it. One of the theories

00:29:06.140 --> 00:29:08.920
that's common now is called the quantum vacuum

00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:13.559
theory. And that basically says that before the

00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:17.740
universe came to be, there was something there.

00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:23.750
And this something was at a low level of size.

00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:26.230
We can't even contemplate how small this was,

00:29:26.309 --> 00:29:29.150
but it was a source of energy. And the energy

00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:32.869
got so agitated that it produced the universe.

00:29:33.089 --> 00:29:35.390
Now, you and I would say that's kind of crazy,

00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:38.609
but that's the latest thought that's been embraced

00:29:38.609 --> 00:29:42.609
by the skeptic world. When you put against that

00:29:42.609 --> 00:29:47.369
just scientific basis of how energy was required.

00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.259
to produce mass. That's Einstein's theory of

00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:54.420
relativity. Then in this particular chapter,

00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:56.720
you have this discussion between, well, does

00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.460
it make sense that something just went poof and

00:30:00.460 --> 00:30:03.539
created the universe? Or does it make sense that

00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:06.660
energy had to be applied to create the masses?

00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:10.140
And that's how kind of we take it, that we present

00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:13.400
both sides. And you kind of see, if you're reading

00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:17.009
this thing, where science really validates. the

00:30:17.009 --> 00:30:20.130
source of energy, and we would say the creator.

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.390
And so that's what we do chapter after chapter

00:30:23.390 --> 00:30:26.630
like that. We just kind of show the logic and

00:30:26.630 --> 00:30:29.670
the scientific basis. I think one of the big

00:30:29.670 --> 00:30:32.789
things for prodigals, too, is that they're choosing

00:30:32.789 --> 00:30:37.569
to live their life their own way. Well, the question

00:30:37.569 --> 00:30:40.029
there is, is there life after death? Is there

00:30:40.029 --> 00:30:43.609
any accountability? And for many of us in the

00:30:43.609 --> 00:30:47.349
faith community, that's a sign of, Faith. You

00:30:47.349 --> 00:30:51.130
have to kind of, okay. But we have this one chapter

00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:55.329
called Consciousness. Where does it come from?

00:30:56.430 --> 00:30:59.849
And we begin this chapter with a Dr. Grayson,

00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:03.690
who's a psychiatrist in training at University

00:31:03.690 --> 00:31:06.549
of Virginia. And he has this experience, and

00:31:06.549 --> 00:31:09.670
this is true, he has this experience where one

00:31:09.670 --> 00:31:12.869
night he's called in to talk to a girl that attempted

00:31:12.869 --> 00:31:17.410
suicide by taking over medications. And she's

00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:21.589
totally out of it. She's not responsive. And

00:31:21.589 --> 00:31:24.470
the next day, he comes back and she says, you

00:31:24.470 --> 00:31:27.390
know, I remember you being here. And I remember

00:31:27.390 --> 00:31:29.730
that you had a little mustard stain on your tie.

00:31:29.990 --> 00:31:32.170
And I remember that you were talking with my

00:31:32.170 --> 00:31:36.690
friend down the hall. And he's thinking, when

00:31:36.690 --> 00:31:41.980
she came in, she basically was flatlined. She

00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:44.279
had what we would call a near -death experience.

00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.420
How did she know all of this? And it started

00:31:47.420 --> 00:31:50.579
him on a search through the University of Virginia

00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.119
where they've documented thousands of cases of

00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:56.200
people that have had near -death experiences,

00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.759
all of whom will come back and talk about something

00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:05.079
beyond this life. And that chapter opens the

00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.940
door to the fact that there's scientific leanings.

00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:12.140
arrows that point to life after death. Well,

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.880
if that's true, then what kind of life is there?

00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:17.839
So again, it's another example of just using

00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.220
science to pry open the possibility of the validity

00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:26.019
of a God that loves them. And of course, as we

00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:27.920
get it further in the book, then we start to

00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:31.119
talk about the validity of the Bible, how it

00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:35.160
stands up, who is Jesus, what are his claims,

00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:38.970
and then we conclude with, is God knowable? You

00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:41.230
know, we've taken you this far. So now, you know,

00:32:41.250 --> 00:32:44.750
is this creator God knowable? So that's kind

00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:46.589
of how we're approaching the chapters, Judy.

00:32:47.930 --> 00:32:54.089
Well, that ending one, is God knowable? Because

00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:56.670
that's a question that they have a lot of times.

00:32:56.750 --> 00:33:00.430
And people are just like, you know, maybe there

00:33:00.430 --> 00:33:04.470
is a God, but, you know, he's just way too beyond

00:33:04.470 --> 00:33:10.799
what our life here is. And yet you bring into

00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:15.900
that realities, scientific proofs, realities

00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:20.160
that there is something behind the universe.

00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.640
There is something behind how things hold together,

00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.880
where the animals came from. And people, you

00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:31.039
know, it's not all just any evolution. It is

00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:36.380
a creation. And God is responsible. And then.

00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.480
Life after death, it's a pretty scary thing.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.720
Yeah, we kind of get into that chapter because

00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.640
at their age, you pointed out, the age of these

00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.619
folks on the ship are probably in their late

00:33:50.619 --> 00:33:53.660
30s, early 40s, and they're starting to go back

00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:56.799
to reunions at their college, but yet they learn

00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.299
of friends that are passing away. Yeah. And so

00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.400
the natural subject becomes, well, gee, what

00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.720
do you think? What's going on here? So that introduces

00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.059
that whole deal that, okay, so what happens to

00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:13.019
these people? But probably one of my favorite

00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:20.400
chapters is built around DNA, which is becoming

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.280
more and more understood in the scientific world.

00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:27.219
And the more you understand DNA, the more it

00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:30.960
points to there had to be somebody that coded

00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:37.880
it. It's a language. Cite Dr. Anthony Flew, who

00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:42.679
for decades was the leading protagonist of atheism

00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:46.659
in the world. He led in writing articles, journals,

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:50.840
he debated. And at a presentation at Columbia

00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:53.780
University in New York, years later, he stood

00:34:53.780 --> 00:34:57.360
up and said, I now believe there's a God. And

00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.599
he explained how science has better understood

00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.230
DNA as a language. He said, you can't have chemistry

00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:11.750
produce a language. Language has to have a coder.

00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:15.110
It has to have somebody that writes this. And

00:35:15.110 --> 00:35:17.590
so he said, I just got, I just, and he's the

00:35:17.590 --> 00:35:19.750
one that I got the title of the book from. He

00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:23.769
says, I had to follow the evidence. And then

00:35:23.769 --> 00:35:27.409
he became an advocate of a creator God, just

00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:31.960
with the scientific discoveries of DNA. That's

00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:38.000
marvelous to know, you know. I have plenty of

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.000
skeptics in my family. And I know that you have

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:48.420
had also. And so that kind of information gives

00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:56.780
an opening for making sense to them. And the

00:35:56.780 --> 00:36:01.179
story of this. scientists should go from a total

00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:06.219
atheist to a believer is a wonderful story to

00:36:06.219 --> 00:36:10.960
be able to tell. Yeah, I think I like your word

00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.159
opening because I think, you know, the question

00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:19.119
is, how does a prodigal come back to faith? You

00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.079
know, is it convincing them that God exists?

00:36:22.179 --> 00:36:26.710
Is it a number of different things? Kind of the

00:36:26.710 --> 00:36:30.409
way I view it is Philippians 1, 6, I believe

00:36:30.409 --> 00:36:33.389
is the verse. It says, he who began a work in

00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:35.590
you will complete it in the day of Christ Jesus.

00:36:35.789 --> 00:36:39.309
Well, the question is how? So if God started

00:36:39.309 --> 00:36:42.449
to work with our prodigals when they were young,

00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:46.570
he's promising that then he's going to bring

00:36:46.570 --> 00:36:48.369
them back. And the question is, how is he going

00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:53.969
to do that? And I believe, as we all do, evangelicals,

00:36:53.969 --> 00:36:55.610
that it has to be the work of the Holy Spirit.

00:36:55.929 --> 00:36:59.889
Yes. But how does the Spirit do that? And so

00:36:59.889 --> 00:37:03.309
I think we don't want to limit God. I think that

00:37:03.309 --> 00:37:07.369
these kind of tools, like my book, can become

00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:10.849
something that opens the door. It gives them

00:37:10.849 --> 00:37:14.309
a different slant. It doesn't let them hide behind

00:37:14.309 --> 00:37:20.230
a false argument that can be exposed. And so

00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:23.710
I would encourage anybody that has a prodigal.

00:37:24.329 --> 00:37:27.969
to basically get the book and then consider how

00:37:27.969 --> 00:37:31.590
the best way is to present the book to that prodigal.

00:37:31.730 --> 00:37:34.030
Can you give them a couple of two or three ideas

00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:41.010
on that? Well, in my family, it was a big open

00:37:41.010 --> 00:37:46.070
door because I wrote it. All right, Dad, we'll

00:37:46.070 --> 00:37:50.150
read your book. Yeah, I said, here's a twist

00:37:50.150 --> 00:37:54.489
also. Younger generations don't read. They listen.

00:37:56.289 --> 00:37:59.889
So after my first round of, have you read the

00:37:59.889 --> 00:38:04.929
book? No, I only listen. So I put it in a audio

00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:07.889
book form. It's not yet available on Amazon in

00:38:07.889 --> 00:38:11.250
that form, but it's in form. So I'm sending that

00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:15.710
one out. And what I'm doing with some of my younger

00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:21.070
skeptics, I'll just get with them. You can listen

00:38:21.070 --> 00:38:25.500
to a chapter. In about 15 minutes. With someone?

00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:30.500
Yeah. And it is so intriguing because, again,

00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.699
you're not being preached at, lectured at, or

00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:35.579
whatever. Hey, you might like to listen to this

00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:38.260
with me. And you just say, this is a chapter.

00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:40.059
Would you be interested in learning about this?

00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:43.960
Let's listen to it. And I did that with one of

00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:47.900
my family members not too long ago. And just

00:38:47.900 --> 00:38:52.309
the questions started coming out. I think the

00:38:52.309 --> 00:38:55.989
key thing here is opening communication. They

00:38:55.989 --> 00:38:58.170
do not need apologetic books thrown at them,

00:38:58.190 --> 00:39:01.670
but a tool that can open communication and pivot

00:39:01.670 --> 00:39:05.670
it away from the traditional Christian tools

00:39:05.670 --> 00:39:10.329
to what the science has to say about issues that

00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:15.309
maybe they've discarded. And I think that because

00:39:15.309 --> 00:39:21.309
a lot of... Those who have rejected, who've grown

00:39:21.309 --> 00:39:25.050
up in a Christian family and going to church

00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:27.630
and stuff and then decided, no, I don't want

00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:32.329
that. I don't believe that. Some of that comes

00:39:32.329 --> 00:39:35.730
from just being challenged intellectually and

00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:39.409
going to school or with friends. Some of it comes

00:39:39.409 --> 00:39:42.210
from feeling it being pushed down your throat,

00:39:42.289 --> 00:39:45.869
so to speak, that it's a bunch of rules and the

00:39:45.869 --> 00:39:49.960
things that you need to follow. comes from feeling

00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:56.940
put down or condemned even because of rejecting,

00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:02.800
and that people even have been raised in such

00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:07.079
a structure that they felt constrained from who

00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.519
they were, and so it was hard for them to want

00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:13.739
anything to do with it. So they have all these

00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:17.970
reasons why they shouldn't listen to you. Because

00:40:17.970 --> 00:40:20.849
they've listened before and they didn't like

00:40:20.849 --> 00:40:23.929
what happened. But this is a whole new approach

00:40:23.929 --> 00:40:29.710
to say, just listen to what science is saying.

00:40:29.849 --> 00:40:33.309
Follow the evidence of where did this come from?

00:40:33.349 --> 00:40:39.389
How did this happen? And open a door for conversation

00:40:39.389 --> 00:40:44.349
that's based. not on somebody's rules, but on

00:40:44.349 --> 00:40:48.409
some reality of how things happened and how they

00:40:48.409 --> 00:40:51.909
got to be here. And so I would think for the

00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:54.750
listeners that especially that we're talking

00:40:54.750 --> 00:40:58.550
to today, and many of them would find themselves

00:40:58.550 --> 00:41:01.329
in this kind of place with their loved ones,

00:41:01.510 --> 00:41:04.730
that this is exactly the kind of approach that

00:41:04.730 --> 00:41:09.650
can help if we can learn. to not tell them, and

00:41:09.650 --> 00:41:13.050
you need to believe or you need to do this, but

00:41:13.050 --> 00:41:18.150
let them listen and absorb some new realities

00:41:18.150 --> 00:41:23.329
and some new explanation of why things are here

00:41:23.329 --> 00:41:29.510
and how they are. Let their minds soar, in a

00:41:29.510 --> 00:41:32.829
sense, beyond what they've ever thought of related

00:41:32.829 --> 00:41:39.019
to Christian faith. And so I just... When I was

00:41:39.019 --> 00:41:41.300
reading your book, Bruce, I just was like, this

00:41:41.300 --> 00:41:46.179
is so wonderful. Whether they're prodigals or

00:41:46.179 --> 00:41:49.139
not, like they're not making terrible choices.

00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.960
They're being responsible adults and that kind

00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.920
of thing. But they have walked away from knowing

00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:59.639
God and trusting God. And that creates some barriers

00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:06.860
sometimes. So, yeah. Any last? on what you'd

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:13.440
want those people to hear as they consider, all

00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.039
right, this is a whole new idea. I'm going to

00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:22.659
pursue it. Well, my experience is that the first

00:42:22.659 --> 00:42:25.179
step, if they're at all interested in taking

00:42:25.179 --> 00:42:28.420
this approach, either with prodigals or friends

00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:34.170
or skeptics, get the book yourself. Yes. I actually

00:42:34.170 --> 00:42:36.750
was making a presentation at Georgia Tech to

00:42:36.750 --> 00:42:42.750
about 50 fraternity guys. And the challenge was,

00:42:42.869 --> 00:42:45.369
I said, how many of you have friends that are

00:42:45.369 --> 00:42:48.889
skeptics that you think this kind of information

00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:53.809
would be helpful? Maybe just talk about it. And

00:42:53.809 --> 00:42:57.650
so 35 raised their hands. So I handed out 35

00:42:57.650 --> 00:43:00.889
books. And I said, Matt, here's the twist is

00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:05.030
I want you to. Think about, identify a person

00:43:05.030 --> 00:43:07.949
that you think needs to hear this kind of message

00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:11.289
this way and start up a conversation with them.

00:43:11.789 --> 00:43:15.170
And I went back and checked on a few of the guys

00:43:15.170 --> 00:43:17.869
that I had their names. We were reaching the

00:43:17.869 --> 00:43:19.909
end of a quarter, so everybody was heading out

00:43:19.909 --> 00:43:23.730
of school. So this one guy said, well, we sat

00:43:23.730 --> 00:43:27.030
down and we were trying to talk about it. But

00:43:27.030 --> 00:43:31.389
I realized I needed to read it first. Yes. That

00:43:31.389 --> 00:43:35.010
sounds kind of obvious start point. So I would

00:43:35.010 --> 00:43:37.849
say start there. And then I think God will give

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:42.809
you approaches and ways that you can consider

00:43:42.809 --> 00:43:45.809
how best to share it with a prodigal or someone

00:43:45.809 --> 00:43:48.630
that's skeptical or has issues. But I think just

00:43:48.630 --> 00:43:52.510
reading it yourself. I was at a food market the

00:43:52.510 --> 00:43:55.760
other day in Atlanta. turned a corner and there

00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.079
were two college students there selling chocolate.

00:44:00.139 --> 00:44:03.480
And I'm not a chocolate kind of guy, but my wife

00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:06.800
is. And she wasn't there. So we started talking.

00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:09.960
And this one guy from the Middle East, he says,

00:44:10.059 --> 00:44:14.679
I'm from Pakistan. I said, what part? He said,

00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.719
Karachi. I said, well, I've been there. He said,

00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:19.940
is that right? I said, yeah, many, many, many

00:44:19.940 --> 00:44:22.780
years ago. I said, you must come from the Muslim

00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:25.170
faith. He said, yeah, but I'm not really committed

00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:27.889
to it. In fact, I'm kind of looking around. I'm

00:44:27.889 --> 00:44:30.510
going to be researching Hinduism next week. I

00:44:30.510 --> 00:44:32.170
said, well, have you ever thought about Jesus?

00:44:32.989 --> 00:44:37.409
He said, no, but I need to. I said, well, let

00:44:37.409 --> 00:44:40.210
me ask you to consider reading something. And

00:44:40.210 --> 00:44:42.409
he took his phone out right then. He pulled up

00:44:42.409 --> 00:44:45.409
the book, went to Amazon when I told him about

00:44:45.409 --> 00:44:48.570
the book, and he ordered the book. And I said,

00:44:48.590 --> 00:44:51.369
now, when you finish reading the book, you need

00:44:51.369 --> 00:44:55.010
to read the Gospel of John. Yeah. But it's in

00:44:55.010 --> 00:44:58.869
the book. It's there for you. Yeah, it's just

00:44:58.869 --> 00:45:01.530
one thing. So, again, it's just a way that you

00:45:01.530 --> 00:45:04.690
can use it as an outreach tool or any way that

00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:07.469
somebody has interest and it's something they

00:45:07.469 --> 00:45:11.250
want to pursue and just see what God does with

00:45:11.250 --> 00:45:13.789
it. I think the whole thing is a faith venture,

00:45:13.929 --> 00:45:19.230
but this is an intended way to open that conversation.

00:45:21.409 --> 00:45:26.250
It's not going to take them to the living fully

00:45:26.250 --> 00:45:29.889
this new life yet. That may take some time, but

00:45:29.889 --> 00:45:35.769
it's the first step to get them beyond any intellectual

00:45:35.769 --> 00:45:39.989
objections that they have or any like, well,

00:45:40.010 --> 00:45:44.429
I just don't see how I can believe that, and

00:45:44.429 --> 00:45:48.949
get them to that first step. And then there's

00:45:48.949 --> 00:45:54.639
God. who's got an open mind, an open heart before

00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:01.699
him or her to be able to begin to draw them into.

00:46:01.900 --> 00:46:04.920
It's more than just a scientific intellectual

00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:13.320
conversation. It will move into, hopefully, a

00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:15.679
fact that we're talking about a love relationship

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:21.880
with the man who created you. For many people,

00:46:21.940 --> 00:46:26.179
they need that proof or that evidence to follow,

00:46:26.380 --> 00:46:31.099
to believe that this is possible. But then they

00:46:31.099 --> 00:46:34.440
have the opportunity to discover its relationship.

00:46:34.699 --> 00:46:39.280
It's more than just, I believe, it is a new kind

00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:44.119
of relationship. As I was researching the book,

00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:46.880
one of the questions that pushes a lot of people

00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:52.179
away from considering God Christ is the problem

00:46:52.179 --> 00:46:55.019
of pain and suffering in the world. Oh, there's

00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:58.559
plenty of that, isn't there? Yeah. So we devote

00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:00.820
one chapter to that. And the way we do it is

00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:05.960
that a person that's on the cruise has gone through

00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:10.800
a recent death of their spouse. And she has an

00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:14.159
encounter with our two people that are on the

00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.019
ship that we're following, the believer and the

00:47:17.019 --> 00:47:21.570
skeptic. And so we present this whole issue through

00:47:21.570 --> 00:47:25.150
her eyes, what she experienced, what she's learning,

00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:28.949
trying to help look at a different way of how

00:47:28.949 --> 00:47:34.010
pain and suffering fits into God's economy and

00:47:34.010 --> 00:47:36.849
what the purpose is. So that you're not just

00:47:36.849 --> 00:47:41.289
pushing it away, saying, well, look, either God's

00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:43.530
not powerful enough to stop it or he doesn't

00:47:43.530 --> 00:47:46.090
care enough to stop it. And it moves you to a

00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:48.030
different way of viewing pain and suffering.

00:47:48.570 --> 00:47:50.670
And again, that's what we're trying to do in

00:47:50.670 --> 00:47:53.150
each chapter is kind of turn it in a different

00:47:53.150 --> 00:47:56.789
direction from just maybe the way somebody's

00:47:56.789 --> 00:48:00.530
understood it or interpreted or applied it. And

00:48:00.530 --> 00:48:03.070
this would be a good chapter, too, to take a

00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:06.530
little time to go through. Oh, thanks for mentioning

00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:09.349
that because I agree. That's a great chapter

00:48:09.349 --> 00:48:14.369
because pain and suffering are there. Yeah. And

00:48:14.369 --> 00:48:18.989
all of us experience it in some way. or other

00:48:18.989 --> 00:48:21.889
to different degrees from different things, but

00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:25.110
it's real. And that is one of the things that

00:48:25.110 --> 00:48:29.010
causes people to walk away, turn away, reject

00:48:29.010 --> 00:48:35.329
entirely. And so good insight, good advice there.

00:48:35.570 --> 00:48:38.690
Any last words you want to say at this point

00:48:38.690 --> 00:48:43.010
before I wrap up? Well, thank you for the privilege

00:48:43.010 --> 00:48:46.150
of being with you and being able to participate

00:48:46.150 --> 00:48:52.010
in a podcast trying to reach prodigals. Trying

00:48:52.010 --> 00:48:54.989
to reach the people who love prodigals. Trying

00:48:54.989 --> 00:48:57.050
to reach the people that love prodigals. Get

00:48:57.050 --> 00:48:59.630
the message out. Love them into the kingdom.

00:48:59.730 --> 00:49:02.230
So I applaud you for what you're doing as a ministry,

00:49:02.389 --> 00:49:05.570
the impact you're having. And hopefully this

00:49:05.570 --> 00:49:09.650
tool of a book could be another resource that

00:49:09.650 --> 00:49:14.090
could take us all in another step of praying

00:49:14.090 --> 00:49:17.440
for and working with. our children, prodigals,

00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.179
that really are waiting for that time to hear

00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:23.800
the right thing, have another thought cross their

00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:28.159
mind, look at it in a new direction from a scientific

00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:31.800
standpoint that maybe would be more open than

00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:35.239
if they had the typical approach that they maybe

00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:37.239
have already heard before. So thank you again,

00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:40.039
Judy, for allowing me to share about the book,

00:49:40.039 --> 00:49:43.420
and we trust that God will use it to reach many

00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:46.809
people. Thank you. Thank you, Bruce. And I agree

00:49:46.809 --> 00:49:50.369
that God, I think he really can use it. And partly

00:49:50.369 --> 00:49:54.070
because I'm aware that so many of the people

00:49:54.070 --> 00:49:58.730
who love a prodigal, they may not be doing the

00:49:58.730 --> 00:50:03.250
usual destructive kinds of things to themselves

00:50:03.250 --> 00:50:05.750
and people around them. But it's just they said,

00:50:06.070 --> 00:50:09.889
I don't believe it. I don't know how you can

00:50:09.889 --> 00:50:13.409
believe it. And you're providing. a resource

00:50:13.409 --> 00:50:17.809
that's readable. Again, it's not like over our

00:50:17.809 --> 00:50:24.010
heads. I could read it and get it. And so I think

00:50:24.010 --> 00:50:26.650
that that will be a tremendous thing, first of

00:50:26.650 --> 00:50:30.590
all, to help the family members and friends who

00:50:30.590 --> 00:50:34.030
love someone who has said, I can't believe it,

00:50:34.070 --> 00:50:40.039
that they can. read it themselves first. Like

00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:42.260
you said, that's really going to help. People

00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:44.659
will say, if you haven't even read it, why should

00:50:44.659 --> 00:50:50.199
I? But then as they have opportunity to say,

00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:53.300
have something I just read that's just really

00:50:53.300 --> 00:50:56.119
been an encouragement to me, and I would love

00:50:56.119 --> 00:50:57.900
for you to read it, and I'd love to get your

00:50:57.900 --> 00:51:04.559
input, and not be pushy. but to be engaging to

00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.440
get people to read it. Now, I'm planning to give

00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.860
away three of these books. We'll have a drawing.

00:51:12.980 --> 00:51:16.079
And so if you've been listening to the podcast

00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:18.780
before, you know you go to the show notes afterwards

00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:22.440
where we'll have more information on Bruce and

00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:26.840
the book and how to sign up to be in the drawing.

00:51:27.059 --> 00:51:30.619
And we'll be delighted to send three books to.

00:51:31.460 --> 00:51:36.039
those whose names we draw. And we would love

00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:38.099
to hear, and I know Bruce would love to hear,

00:51:38.219 --> 00:51:42.659
how it goes, how you have been touched by it

00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:47.619
and how you have been able to make some progress

00:51:47.619 --> 00:51:51.780
or encourage somebody who's been a skeptic or

00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:56.719
somebody who's just totally rejected. We'd love

00:51:56.719 --> 00:51:59.840
to hear how God uses this book in your life and

00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:04.460
in their lives. So be sure and let us know. Bruce

00:52:04.460 --> 00:52:06.300
has written a couple other books, if you get

00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:09.539
interested, and that'll be listed in the show

00:52:09.539 --> 00:52:14.239
notes as well, so that you'll find out how amazing

00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:18.300
he is, really, even more than you know now. Bruce,

00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:25.440
thank you so much. I'm just excited for our listeners

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:29.239
to take action. And you know, I always say this

00:52:29.239 --> 00:52:32.679
at the end of our podcast. Don't just say, oh,

00:52:32.699 --> 00:52:36.420
that was nice. Write down something you're going

00:52:36.420 --> 00:52:39.420
to do as a result of what you've heard today,

00:52:39.579 --> 00:52:42.800
because then it will have some impact and go

00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.800
forward in the direction that you'd like to see

00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:49.400
change, maybe in your own life, maybe in a...

00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:53.500
somebody in your family or a good friend. So

00:52:53.500 --> 00:52:58.179
be the one who can take that next step. Thanks.

00:52:58.260 --> 00:53:01.380
Thanks, Bruce. Thank you. God bless you.