Dennis and Barbara Rainey: Relating to Your Adult Children, episode 158

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast, and also help and hope for your own life journey. I hope last week's episode really opened your eyes to how your prodigal is, has been, and will be a gift from God to you. And today we have some very special guests, my friends Dennis and Barbara Rainey. Dennis and Barbara have deep experience with parenting children. They have six children. Are they all now married? Yes. Yes. And 27 grandchildren. I can't even comprehend that. It's a big number. It's a huge number. Dennis and Barbara co-founded Crews Family Life Ministry and led it for 43 years. Now they're kind of freelancing around doing a lot of things. They have written many books on all aspects of marriage and family, speak around the world, and minister to so many. I first had my exposure to family life when it was first starting, and Steve and I had just gotten married and we were attending a family life little conference for some staff. And I was sick as I could be for some reason. Anyway, so welcome Dennis and Barbara.

1:36 I'm so glad to have you here. Well, we're delighted to be here with you too. Delighted to be here and we along with you miss Steve. Oh yeah. One week from today is two years since Steve wrapped. Isn't it really? Wow. So this week I'm posting a bunch of things by him or about him and I miss him every single day. I'm sure you do. All the time. And I'm missing him even more right now. So I was reading Barbara, your blog recently, and saw a post that you did on seven ways to relate to your children, your adult children. And so I thought more and more I'm experiencing through my podcast and my book and the Facebook page that we have, I'm seeing that there's still plenty of problems with your teenagers and young adults off to college or new jobs or something. But more and more I'm hearing from parents saying we're really separated from our adult children. They've turned their backs on us. They've turned their backs on their faith. And in some cases we never even have connection with them anymore. They're just heartbroken, which I'm sure you understand. And so it seemed to me that if we can give them some help on relating to their kids, that will make it harder for that to happen so that they are learning better how God is working through them,

3:14 but also in them. I mean that we will learn that. That if we can handle things better than maybe we might naturally, perhaps there will be less of that happening. That they'll be able to hold on to those relationships and not feel rejected. Because I know off the top of my head about five families that they're experiencing that right now. And I know there are many more, but those are good friends of mine. And it's sad. So I'm going to say first to my listeners what I always say to you. Pay attention to what speaks to you when God whispers in your ear some things and write it down. Because every time I think I'll remember that, I don't. And so if God gives you an insight from what Dennis and Barbara share, write it down so that you can really seek to apply it and let God work on it. So first, I just want to, before I ask them specific questions, I want to spend some time on those seven things that you mentioned. And phrases that I loved as I was listening and reading all the things, because I've listened to your podcast too. Here are some phrases I'll throw out to remind you of your seven things. First, you said ask God for wisdom. If you're

4:45 going to raise children, and especially as they get older actually, ask God for wisdom. And I loved you said act like an adult yourself. And because sometimes we don't. Remember grace and love and mercy. Admit when you're wrong. Become smaller. That one I hope you really can. So I'm just going to kind of give it to you and let you start talking and I'll jump in occasionally. So what are those seven? Well, the first one I'd mention is we're reminded of in Psalm 127 verse 4, it compares children to like arrows in the hand of a warrior. So are the children of one's youth. And I think what God's trying to get across to us using the metaphor of archery and a target is that our children were given to us to raise them to let go. And to raise them to be independently dependent upon Jesus Christ. You're not trying to create dependence back upon you as a parent and lengthen your heartstrings. But stay in relationship with them. But you got to let them grow up and make some of the same mistakes that we made when we were growing up. And I think as Barbara and I have looked at that, this is hard to, you know, it's hard to let go.

6:16 It is hard to let go. Tears come for sure. Well, I can't, I just was going to say before we get too far from what you said in your opening, you talked about how so many kids are going their own way and they're turning their back on their parents. And as you were reading, not reading, but you were reciting those characteristics of adult children who don't want a relationship with their parents, I was listening and I thought, my gosh, that sounds exactly like what we do with God. We turn our back on Him. We want to go our own way. We don't want a relationship with Him unless it's convenient and it meets my needs.

6:58 And we see, I think we see in our adult kids a picture of how we relate to God. And I think God feels just as much loss and grief and sadness over the way we treat Him as we do over our adult children when they do that. And so, I have found that one of the most important lessons for us as parents when our kids don't respond the way we want and they don't, they're not interested in what we're interested in, is to just remember this is a picture of how we treat God and He wants us to say, oh, Father, forgive me. And I think it's a season where God wants us to continue to grow and to humble ourselves before Him and not expect our kids to be a certain way and to act a certain way and to let them be who they are.

8:04 And we're just not very good at that. So, for me, that's one of the biggest lessons of of our adult children is having to let go and having to trust God that He is big enough to take care of my kids without my help and without my interference or without my advice. They don't need my advice. They can figure it out and maybe they'll run to Christ on their own. So, I just think that's really important for parents who are in our season to remember that this is a picture of our relationship with God and to not forget that. And He has lessons for us, obviously, in these relationships that He's trying to teach us.

8:48 That's Barbara's point there. And I think it's interesting that this second thing we have here, the second lesson we're learning, is before looking forward, look backward and honor your parents. The first commandment of the Ten Commandments that has a promise with it is the fifth commandment. It says, honor your mother and your father that it may go well with you in the land that I'll give you. And I think for the most part, Judy, and I know you agree with us on this, we have a generation that has arisen that bashes parents and blames parents and doesn't honor them, but blames them and doesn't honor them, doesn't take honor home. They take blame and guilt and shame.

9:36 And certainly, we as parents make mistakes. Yeah, and we deserve a lot of it. We make mistakes, really? Yes, I think we do. Yeah, too many. But one thing here that Barbara ought to share, it took her 20 years before she took honor home to her parents in the form of writing a tribute to her mom and dad. And she gave this to them one Christmas. Yeah, Dennis wrote a book called The Tribute Years Ago. I remember it. Yeah. And I actually wrote one to my parents as a result. There you go. Good for you. Good for you. It was worth it, wasn't it? Yes, it was. Yeah. And when he wrote the book and started talking about it, I thought, well, that's a really nice idea. But I don't think I need to do that. So that was kind of my position for a long time. And it wasn't so much that, well, anyway, it's just that I really, the bottom line is, I really didn't want to because it didn't sound like it was an easy thing to do. But anyway, he kept pestering me and saying, you've got to do this. Dennis, you pestered her. Yes, he can do that. And he kept doing that. And so finally, I thought, okay, okay, I'll do it. And so I remember taking my kids to Mother's Day out and leaving them, my two youngest ones, and going and sitting at a park bench or a picnic table in a park and with a piece of paper and thinking, well, what am I going to say? I mean, what am I supposed to do with this? And I'd stared at blank paper two or three weeks or maybe more during

11:12 those Mother's Day out and didn't get anything done. But finally, I started thinking, okay, just start thinking about what your parents did right. And I mean, my story is a great illustration of what I think our kids feel today. I was looking at all the things they had done wrong. They didn't raise me in the faith the way that I should have been. And they didn't, you know, express love like I would have liked and on and on. I had all these, I didn't ever have them listed on paper, but they were sure in my head and in my heart. And I had reasons that I felt like they had made mistakes. And so they probably had. And of course they had, of course they had. They were a different generation. And they didn't know how to express love. And that wasn't a value of that culture, that World War II culture. And so I was holding them to the standard that I felt like they should have lived up to when that wasn't something that they knew how to do anyway.

12:13 So the process of writing the tribute was really good for me because I realized there were things that they did do right. But by focusing on the things that they did wrong, it obscured the things that they did right. So as I began to focus on what they did right, it put it all in proper perspective and more in balance. And it just was really a transformational process for me, because as I wrote on paper the things that they did right, and I thanked them for the things they did right, it really liberated me from the bondage that I had put myself in and expecting them to be something that they weren't. And so it was a great experience. I'm really glad I did it.

12:58 They loved it. And it changed our relationship. And it really set me free. And I think there are too many of us in our generation who are still in bondage in many ways to expecting perfection from our parents. And your parents may already be gone and likely are gone. But we still are commanded to honor them. And I think if we want our children to honor us, then we need to honor our parents and model that. And I don't think there's enough of that going on. I think our kids see that. And so they don't understand honor because they've not seen it. Pete I had one Christian leader, a woman, tell me, Judy, she said, I forgave my parents, I honored them, and I realized it wasn't them that were locked up in a prison, it was me. And when I forgave them, the door of the prison flew open. And all of a sudden, I could see my parents as real people and give them the freedom that I gave other people with grace to forgive them for the mistakes they made. And it transformed their relationship. That wasn't overnight, but she had a good mom and dad.

14:19 But she, like Barbara, I think was captive without realizing it. And I didn't realize it either. All I know is she needed to do what God commanded. It's one of the Ten Commandments. And it's how you build a nation. You take honor home because Plato said, what is honored in the land will be cultivated there. Judy And just think of the impact then on your children to see you honoring your parents and setting the stage, kind of showing them what it looks like to honor your parents. And if they've seen that, then they have a picture that might penetrate the same kinds of things you're talking about where I thought they hadn't done anything right. What was I going to say? And if we can let our children know about that tribute that we would write to our parents, then that's going to have an impact on them.

15:19 Barbara Yeah, I think so. For sure it will. Yeah. Jim In fact, Barbara gave it to them for Christmas. And I kind of ushered the kids away from Barbara so she could read it. Judy Well, the kids actually ended up watching. Jim They ended up watching it. Barbara Which was great, because that's how they saw it modeled, is they watched me give it to them. And I think had they been away, the impact wouldn't have been as significant. So I'm glad that they were there watching. Jim Yeah, and I don't think Barbara was planning on crying as she read the tree. Barbara No, of course not. Who plans to cry? Jim But she really was sobbing at points, and the kids were going, Mom, what's wrong? And there was nothing wrong. It was good. It was all good. Tears show heart and love and appreciation. And I was so proud of Barbara for fighting through initially apathy, mistrust of me, thinking I was pestering her. But that tribute, Judy, hung in their kitchen.

16:25 Barbara For a long time, yeah. Jim For a long time. Barbara Yeah, and I have it now. Because it's in, yeah. After they were gone, I grabbed that thing right away. So anyway. Jim That's a beautiful story. And a great model to help us be able to show them what it looks like. Barbara That really leads us to the third thing. Barbara I was going to say, what's the next one? Jim Let go and don't control. Barbara Oh, that's so easy to do. Barbara This was a good one for everyone listening to right then. Jim Pull your pen out and write on the sheet of paper. Let go and don't control.

17:08 Barbara Even rhymes. Jim Your children were made to be released. Barbara Absolutely. Jim They were not made to be possessed. Barbara I think the thing that makes it so hard is that we probably got that on the front end when they were little, because we wanted to be released from our parents. And so I think that made sense then. But you know, after you invest in them for 18 years each or longer, it's real hard to let go. Because it's like, okay, I poured my life into you, and then you're going to walk away. Jim Yeah. Barbara And if you don't see them making good decisions, that makes it even harder. Jim It makes it even harder. Jim Do you feel like, I mean, I experienced it last week. Barbara had to tell me, Judy, don't say anything.

17:51 Barbara Yeah, we were on a phone call with one of our adult kids, and he was wanting to give some instruction and remind this one, you know, what the truth is and whatever. And I was going, no, no, stop. Jim And I didn't. I really didn't. Barbara Yeah. But it's just natural to want to keep guiding and coaching and correcting and directing, but we can't. Jim Yeah. So here's four thoughts we have on this one, let go and don't control. The first one's a quote by Stephen Covey, who was the Seven Habits of Effective People. He said, begin with the end in mind. With your children, you have to begin with the end in mind. That means you need to be thinking of this arrow being aimed, let go. And at that point, you really do let go, whether it's first grade or in high school or college or when you place her hand in the hand of a man that you don't know in marriage. It's a big deal. Second one, letting go begins with baby steps. We have a lot of helicopter parents hovering over their kids, thinking that the kids have got to have them involved in their lives. I get it. I feel it 110%. I'm with you. But you can't hold on and let go at the same time. Think about that. You can't hold on and let go at the same time.

19:21 And perhaps that helicoptering and that holding on is part of what is causing a lot of them to now say, let go. I'm going away because you won't let go. Yeah. And I think they push back against us because they feel like we are being too controlling and we are too involved and we're saying too much. And so they want their space. Tell them what one of our sons said to you one time. About he didn't want any more sermons. Yeah. He said, we've heard all your stuff, dad. We don't need to hear what you believe anymore. I knew you'd like that, Judy. And he wasn't being mean, but he really...

20:02 We've heard your stuff. Actually, Judy, I was telling him to listen to my radio show. And he said, I don't want to listen to your stuff. I live with this stuff. He said, I've heard it all. And of course, we know they haven't heard it all, but they think they've heard it all. So, okay, let them think they've heard it all. And the third point I'd make underneath this one, be prepared to clarify your relationship with your child at major points of release that happens in their lives. And what does that mean to clarify it? College. As they leave and go to college, clarify the expectations. Yeah. What does that mean for them to be on their own? Are they really on their own or what is this going to look like where we're paying?

20:48 So, this is what we want to know. But you're on your own. You don't have to tell us what you're doing every day. I mean, clarify what that is because it's when things are muddy and murky that we get our feelings hurt because we're assuming they're going to call every day or whatever. I hope not. Once a week or whatever. And the kids have no intention whatsoever. So, if you clarify it on the front end, it just makes it easier for everybody. And when they get married, it's just not symbolic for this cause, the scripture says, a man shall leave his mother and father and shall cleave to his wife. That means the mother and the dad have got to let go and let them cleave because if you don't... They can't leave if you don't let go.

21:38 I actually had six conversations with the young man who got our youngest, our youngest, Laura. So, I'd gotten fully trained by the time I did this, Judy, and I was loaded for bear with him. And I looked at him and I said, if you ever sense that Barbara or I are overstepping our bounds in your marriage, I want you to call me. I want you to get right on the phone. We don't need any triangles in this family. Come right to me. And if it's Barbara, Barbara and I will talk about it. If it's me, I'll talk to Barbara about that too. The point is, is create an openness where expectations can be expressed in an honest, truthful way. There's a lot of Christians that really don't want authenticity. Authenticity, honesty, sometimes hurts, but it's how you build a relationship that goes the distance. So does that make sense?

22:35 Oh, it does make sense. And it's really hard. I had one with one of my sons-in-law that I had some thoughts that he should have, I thought. And it took two or three conversations and I shut up. I just had to say, okay, you're in God's hands and you all are together and I am letting go. Yeah, that's really true. A friend of ours, Stu and Linda Weber, when they saw their boys get married, she took the apron strings. Literally took the apron strings and cut the strings off.

23:16 And gave the husband the scissors to cut the apron strings. And so they're sitting there holding the apron strings in their hands at the altar, symbolically saying, we're going to let go. We got to move on to this fourth lesson we learned because this is a big one too. You go ahead, sweetie. Oh, so this is one of my favorite moments as we were getting ready to send our kids off one by one. And I don't remember, we may have already sent off one or two, but we have really good friends here in town who also have six kids, but they were 10 years ahead of us. So their oldest was 10 years older than our oldest. And so it was really great to have somebody else we could watch and see what they were going through before we got there. And one day she said to me, when our kids were teenagers and we were about to start launching them out, she said, you know, when you're raising your kids and they're little, you are really important in their lives. And you have to be important in their lives because they would die if you aren't important. If you're not the most important person in their life, if you're not really big in their lives, knowing everything and managing everything, controlling everything, they're too little, they would die. But what you have to realize as they grow up is that you as a parent need to get smaller. So it's the idea of

24:47 this great big triangle and this side of it, the base of it, is where you start out and you're really big in your child's life and you have to be and God designed it to be that way. But by the way, leave, you have to be small. You have to get small and you have to be small. That's such a great, yeah, very helpful. It was so helpful to me and just helped me understand what my place needed to be and my role and my size. They didn't want me to be big anymore. They don't need me to be big anymore. They don't need me to save them and rescue them anymore. They have to figure that out because we want them to go to God. He's the one that needs to rescue them. So we love sharing that with parents of adult kids because it resonates every time. The idea of becoming smaller makes sense and I think it's really helpful because it helps us, it just helps us grasp onto what God envisioned.

25:52 And it is absolutely a picture of what you were saying. All the need is there at the beginning, but as they grow, it's less and less. Less and less. John 3.30, John the Baptist said this, he must increase. I must decrease. But I must decrease. And it's a model of parenting. It's an assignment from God and it's no fun sometimes. But it's a picture of what we want for our children because we have to be big when they're little, but if we're not decreasing, then Jesus can't become more important to them. If we stay big all the way through their lives, then Jesus can't become their everything.

26:40 The scripture is a great application to parenting and raising kids. I was going to ask one question on that. Okay. So what do you do when they come to you asking for wisdom, help, and you think it's how do you decide when to be helpful and respond to their question or when do you need to say, you know, I think you can figure that out yourself? Well, you know each of your children better than anyone. And there's where parenting is a two-person tag team. If you wonder when you should speak and when you should be quiet, as Barbara told me, you know, don't say it, sweetheart.

27:26 Don't say it at all. And so the first piece of advice, we got five little tips here. Okay, five. The first one is zip it. Zip the lips. Because it's better to say too little than to say too much. Oh, I think that's true. Because you can't bring it back once you've said it. So it's better to say too little and have your kids say, no, I really want to know what you think. That's just a much better place to be in than saying too much. And then they say, would you button it? And, you know, then you get your feelings. Zip it. And if there's work, I went to my son-in-law, the last one, I said, if I don't zip it, nail me, call me.

28:10 Her lawyer's name is Josh. And I told Josh, I said, my phone number's in your phone. Call me. And it's hard because you're watching things happen and they're raising their kids and they aren't raising them like we did, Judy. No, they aren't. Did you notice that? Yes. A second one, where he mentioned this, but retire the preaching daddy and the teaching mommy. Be a cheerleader and don't offer advice unless asked. And in the rare case, they ask your advice like Judy's children ask her all the time. Then you know what? Just become a life coach who's on call. If they want to call, they can do that.

28:52 But if they don't ask, man, so tough. The third thing, give up on manipulation. Give up on manipulation. Give up on manipulation, playing games. Sending too many books or, you know, just what we think are just helpful suggestions feel like high control management to them. Yeah. Number four, don't rescue or be an enabler. Every parent, and Judy, you've experienced this. I know we've talked about it. Every parent is set up and wired to be a rescuer. Absolutely.

29:33 A mommy is a mommy when she sees her son, whether he's 40 or four, and he scrapes his knee, she's going to run in there to put a bandaid on it, you know, and bandage. So retire the rescuer. You got to rewire your instincts and clarify with your kids. Now, this is tough, but you got to live with this. Clarify with your kids. You are not going to rescue them when they get in a tough spot. And that's really, really hard. But honestly, Barbara and I have found that if you don't retire the rescuing parent in their 30s and 40s, you're going to create an emotional cripple.

30:20 A young man or a young lady who has to run home to mommy or run home to daddy, that's not a healthy relationship in that marriage for them either. Well, no, that's true. It's not. Number five on this one, surrender your desire to see your ideas and values take root in your children as you watch them do relationships, raise their own children and make decisions. They will do it different. Differently. Excuse me. I know your grammar, your grammar Nazi. I'm a grammar Nazi. No doubt about it. You and Barbara are the same cloth. Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's enough on that one.

31:02 I mean, just surrender your desire to see your ideas multiply. But it's not an easy thing to do. No, it's not. And I think, you know, I keep reminding myself that God knows and he has plans for our kids and he wants to accomplish those plans. And I think the problem is, is I think we get in the way of what God's trying to do sometimes by rescuing them and trying to fix it for them when the very best thing for them to do is to get to a place where they have to call on God. And so I think as hard as it is to not rescue and to not help, it's the best thing to do is to let them fall, let them not have enough money for rent for the month or whatever the whatever the consequence might be, because that's how they grow up.

31:55 It's how we grew up. Yeah. And we have to let them do it. All right, real quick summary. Number one, remember the goal of parenting is for them to be independently dependent upon Jesus Christ. Number two, before going forward, look backwards and honor your parents. Number three, let go and don't control. Number four, get smaller, not bigger in your child's life. And number five, oh, this is so this is so healthy. Create a safe relationship. You know how to do that? Ask your child what that looks like. Let him or her or them husband and wife, because they got an opinion on that.

32:40 It's not that your opinion as a parent doesn't matter, but this isn't about us. It's about them. And so ask them, how can we create a safe relationship going forward and ask them to define it? And I would say get your pen and paper out at that point and write down what they say. Well, that would say something to the kid if you actually wrote down what they said to you. Yeah, they would be put it on the fridge. Yeah. Our desire as parents is for too is for too much involvement. Yes. That's just the way it is. Define it then. What is too much?

33:21 What's not enough? So tell her what our kids told us when we asked, OK, how often do you want to see us and what that looks like on an ongoing basis? This was quite a few years ago, but we were staying with one of them. And he said, you know, you all are just not coming enough. And I know that that's not a problem. Some people in our season have, but part of it for us is geographic because all of our kids live out of state except one. And some of them we can't see without buying plane tickets. So it's not just a matter of not going and not being there enough.

34:05 It's also just practical. But anyway, we said, well, what would you like? And this one said, well, we'd like to see you at least twice a year for four days each. So we'd like to see each. We'd like for you to come for at least twice a year and stay and stay for four days. So we did the math. And that didn't count the travel days. Yeah. So we did the math and we added up four days times two times six kids plus two days of travel on either end for the one because at the time this was by the time that our son told us this, he was living in Seattle. Well, you can't get to Seattle easily from most places in the country, maybe Denver.

34:47 But we realized it was two full months of our lives would be spent traveling and seeing our kids. Well, you didn't have anything else to do now. And we thought we have two months. We can't do that. Well, I used to work for Judy's husband. I saluted to him. So we had a job. Yeah, I know. Anyway. That was before we retired from family life. So we were both working full time. But anyway, it just was really interesting to have that conversation and hear them say what they really wanted. And did all the other children want that much too? Well, yeah, because it has to be fair and even. Oh, yes. It has to be even. Yes. You know, Hershey's has little squares where you can break them off.

35:32 We used to have candy bar. We'd split in our family. They'd break that Hershey bar off on the edges. So everybody got an equal piece. And as one person said, the fair is what comes around once a year. Life isn't fair. One more. This is really an important point before we move off of creating a safe relationship. When your children are dating someone that they may likely marry, be very careful of your observations that you might make about that person. We made a mistake here, more than one.

36:13 And, you know, the best thing to do is to build up the other one and be very careful what you say because that can follow you into the marriage and into that relationship for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years moving forward. One more point about this on safe relationship. One of the ways to build a relationship with them is by investing in their children, your grandchildren. And one of the ways we did this, Judy, was we had a road trip to the Creation Museum. Oh, yes. We took all of, not all, we took five or six. Five or six of them, yeah.

36:54 Who were at the right age range. Yeah, right. And took them to the Creation Museum and taught them about worldview, how creation, the beginning of something, determines its purpose. We had so much fun. It was really great. It was really a blast. And then we took them back after the ark got built. And then a couple of years ago, and Judy, this was one of the greatest privileges, we took a number of our children and grandchildren, not all, to Israel. To Israel? Yeah. How? Oh, yeah. We just did that a year and a half ago. Before the bullets started flying. Yeah, thankfully. But you may not be able to afford that. We told the kids we'd pay for them to go, but not their kids.

37:35 So they chipped in and took care of the kids. And it was a great, great experience. And let me just add on that too. One of our expectations is that we would get certain holidays or certain events or certain things that we planned that we would get everybody. Everybody would come. That was our expectation. And one of the lessons that we've learned over the years is to be thankful for who we get. And not to complain about who can't come. Judy's getting a headache. Or who chooses not to come. Because if you worry about or fret about the fact that you only got two of your kids and all three of them couldn't come or whatever your numbers are, then you're not going to enjoy the two that are coming.

38:25 And so when we did this trip to Israel, I just thought everybody would come. Well, we had half. So we had three of our kids and it was like, okay, great. God, that's who you brought. That's who you want to be there. And we're going to give thanks and enjoy it. And we had a blast. But so that's something that we've learned that's not in the notes. And I think it's really important to give thanks for who wants to be with you. Oh, I think that, yeah, that's really true. We used to do family vacations where all three kids and their kids would come together. Yeah. But then Josh, when he married his second wife, they became farmers.

39:05 He has a job as well. But you know what? Hard to leave. You can't leave. They raise stock, livestock, cows and pigs and chickens and ducks. They can't leave. And so all of a sudden we couldn't do everyone together. And it's been, it's taken me a while to accept that. I just like, I love it when we're all together and I want my kids to still love each other and know each other. Sure. I want the cousins to know each other. The cousins to be friends. Yeah. Of course. I see what you're saying. That's a hard thing. But you have to appreciate what you can have.

39:48 The only time they all got together is when Steve died. Yeah. And they came for that. So I don't want to have to create that again. Right. But it's liberating though to be thankful for what you get, what God provides. I agree. And not to bemoan what you don't get. I just mean it's no fun. Right. And so it's really a better position to take to give thanks for. And they will appreciate that you are enjoying them and fewer is easier than a whole lot. It is easier. No doubt. Right. All right. Number six, share and model, not preach or teach, your experience with Jesus Christ.

40:33 Absolutely. Psalm 78 verses 5 through 8 warns us, don't raise your kids to be like the generation of Israelites who were stubborn and refused to listen to God. And this is one of my hobby horses that I get on my soapbox about this. I think what we have to do is we have to make sure our kids know that we're not practicing religion one day a week. That we have an experience with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords daily, weekly, every day of every month. All the time.

41:14 All the time. And I think one of the reasons why we see, I think, a rash of prodigals in the church today is they look at their parents on Sunday and they hear what their parents are hearing and they're going, this doesn't match up with the other six days of the week. And so the kids are going, this isn't reality. When we make a mistake, we need to repent, confess it before God and to our kids. And I think what needs to happen is we need to have an authentic walk where we're sharing as a way of life what God's doing in our lives, what he's teaching us, what we got convicted of today when we were given too much change back at the grocery store.

42:05 Or some mistake we made throughout the day, but to go and ask their forgiveness for getting angry. But the issue is to make a match of what they're hearing on Sunday and from the scriptures and from devotions that you lead them through with how you're living on an ongoing basis. I think if they see that, there's going to be less of a disconnect, which I think occurs with a generation whose parents are living one way but saying something, something else. I agree with that for sure. That we really need to let the love and the grace of God flow through us, the wisdom, the courage to take the stands we need to take and to give them the increasing freedom to live that themselves.

43:01 So yeah, I agree with that. Very important. Number seven. Number seven, clarify expectations with one another. These will change as transitions occur in your lives as parents and in the lives of the children. And I've got to tell you, both Barbara and I are astounded at the pace our children are doing life. They are so busy. Yes. So keep clarifying expectations around what Barbara mentioned, around holidays, around birthdays, what you're going to do with presents.

43:45 You know, expectations and reality result in the disappointment gap. When expectations are up here and reality is much lower, that difference is not going to be there. You cross that difference by voicing them. Yeah. And just keeping a humble spirit. Expectations can crush and kill a relationship with your child. I really agree with that and I don't want to run over too quickly the other thing you just said to keep a humble spirit.

44:25 As parents, we can think we know how to walk with God, we know how to make the right decisions, we know what we think you should be doing and we come across as arrogant even if we are not letting God remind us that Jesus was humble and he's asking us to walk in humility. One of the good things about getting older, it's also one of the hard things, but one of the good things about getting older is we in this season of our lives, we're all experiencing losses.

45:08 We're experiencing personal losses, physical losses, loss of friends. You've experienced the loss of a spouse and I think God intends for all of those losses to humble us, to make us see that we need a savior, to make us see that we are not as capable and strong and powerful as we think we are and as we once thought we were because we seemed invincible once upon a time. So I think one of the gifts of getting older is understanding that we are fragile and we're frail and we're not going to be here forever. I think if we can absorb that and allow God to use that for good in our lives instead of being angry about it, I think that our kids will see humility.

45:55 I think part of the reason they don't see humility is because we're not surrendered and we're not saying... You can say you don't like it. I don't like it either. There's a lot of things I don't like about the aging process, but it is a part of what we all have to go through. If we surrender to God and say, okay, use this for good in my life. I mean, I'm a thousand times more aware of my sin now than I was 20 years ago, 30 years, 40 years ago. It's made me more, I think, more humble and more broken and more... Just even softer.

46:36 So I think it's good for us in this season of life to allow God to use these hard things of aging for our good. First Peter 4, 8 says, love covers a multitude of sins. Yeah, it's one of my favorite verses in this season. That is such a full passage. Love covers a multitude of sins. My sins, Barbara's sin, the kids sin, the grandkids sin. And we'll close with two things. One is a statement that John Stott made, the great British statesman, Christian mission to the modern world.

47:23 He said this, life is a pilgrimage of learning, a voyage of discovery in which our mistaken views are corrected, our distorted notions adjusted, our shallow opinions deepened, and greatly some of our vast ignorance diminished. Isn't that great? That's hopeful anyway. It is hopeful. It's very hopeful. I'll tell you, I had a chance of going to Billy Graham's funeral and I went with a friend and we sat there in a very chilly tent.

48:06 Were you there, Judy? No, Steve was. Yeah, it was cold. Wind was blowing in Charlotte. I think it was in February or March. But Billy Graham had lived his life and his daughter got up and gave a tribute to Billy. And she said... And she was a prodigal. Oh yeah. Yes, she was. She really was. And it was the highlight of the funeral in my opinion. I think so too. I remember watching that. She got up and said, daddy and mama put up with me when I got married the wrong guy, refused to listen to him and got a divorce and then turned around and did it again.

49:01 And I moved to California. I was so ashamed. And she said, I called daddy and told him I was coming home. She had moved all the way to California and of course, Charlotte's on the other side. So she had plenty of time to think. She drove back and evidently where the Graham family live, there's a driveway that goes up to a rather large mansion of sorts, I think. And I'm getting emotional because she told this story. She said, as I turned the corner and headed up the hill, there was daddy with both of his arms welcoming, welcoming.

49:50 Absolutely. Billy Graham was never greater. He was never greater than at that moment to forgive his daughter and welcome her back. And she said that. It's one of the best stories and it happens a lot, but it also doesn't happen sometimes. The parents won't welcome them. So any last thoughts you want to share? This has been so full of really good ideas and good living practice.

50:30 I think we've probably said too much, kind of like some adult parents. Yeah, maybe. It's a privilege to be with you though, Judy. Thanks for being on your podcast. I'm so glad that you're willing and available. I know your schedule's busy. So mine's been a little busy lately too. So it's really fun to do this with you. I'm so glad you're doing a podcast. I'm really glad. Yes. When they first asked me to do a podcast for people with prodigals, I said, I've never even listened to a podcast. So I've learned, but I have good people here who'd help.

51:14 Yeah. Well, it makes all the difference. Well, good for you. Well, thank you so much. And to my listeners, you have so many things to choose from that Dennis and Barbara has shared with you. And I'll try to make just a brief list in the show notes to help you if you didn't get them all written down. But ask God to show you how to apply this at whatever stage of life you and your kids are at so that you have such a better opportunity and likelihood that you'll go forward and be able to enjoy each other in the future and not have that separation that can occur.

51:59 So thank you. Thank you. God bless you, Dennis and Barbara. God bless you to my listeners. And bless you too, Judy. Amen. Thank you. Amen.