Heather Holleman: Mindsets for Loving Conversations, episode 111

0:00 Welcome back to When You Love a Product. I hope you enjoyed and were blessed by the repeat episodes while I took the summer to spend time with my children and grandchildren. We had lots of fun and many special conversations, especially about Steve, dad, papa, and how we miss him and all he has meant to us. It was a great time for me and I hope that the repeat podcasts as you listen to them, bless you. Today, I have a very special guest, Heather Holleman.

0:40 Heather is an Associate Teaching Professor at Penn State. I know she's a writer, focuses on that in teaching and other things. She's the author of eight books. She's a great speaker. She really wooed the CRU staff when she spoke to them. They loved it. She's married to Ashley, has two daughters. One is in college now, is that right? Both are in college. Both are. I also know that she's very creative and very compassionate. In a recent book that she wrote, The Six Conversations, we find a practical and powerful God to loving conversations, which we have talked about often on our podcast.

1:28 We will spend two sessions with Heather. This will be so practical. Don't forget to jot down helpful thoughts and actions that you gain from this today so you can actually do it. I always tell you, I would never remember anything if I didn't write it down. Welcome, Heather. Thank you. I'm so excited for our conversation and this is such a treat to be with you, Judy. Well, a treat for me and I am sure for our listeners. Heather, I just returned, as you heard me say, from a summer visiting all my children and my grants.

2:09 I have 10 grants. The last group was in Montana and it included three teenage boys. I was grateful for your book because it helped me to have some really loving conversations with them. I'm so glad. Who are all very different and in different ways struggling with who they are right now. Just figuring that out. Your book was very helpful to me. We will be talking about two sections of your book, one today and one next week. The first, you call the Four Mindsets of a Loving Conversation, which prepares us to engage well in the six conversations that we will talk about next week.

2:59 Heather, give us a brief overview of your passion for loving conversations and how that grew and developed. Well, really it began because I was so passionate about helping others talk about their faith. What happened when we were training grad students and how to talk about Jesus, they would say, well, could you actually go back a few steps because we have forgotten how to have a conversation in general. That began to alert my interest in helping people dialogue well. Then also, I was so troubled by the loneliness epidemic research and how college students were considered the loneliest population. I just began to research how do we solve this problem?

3:41 I showed my students the Harvard grant study, which is the longest research study ever conducted. It's in its 85th year. Wow. It's trying to answer the question, what's the single most determining factor of a happy life? The answer was warm connections. My students would say, Dr. H, how do we get those? I began to ask the question, how do I help people have loving connections that are so vital for our mental and even physical health as the surgeon general has told us, we're helping our physical health when we have warm connections, and how to talk to people about Jesus. That began my research study in how to have warm connections. Well, then you're going to share with us some of the things that you've learned.

4:26 Yes. As we talk about the four mindsets of a loving conversation. Keep in mind, most of our listeners have a prodigal in their life. Someone they love, but may find it difficult to have loving conversations with. That's what we're trying to help them learn and grow in, and therefore have a more loving connection. Yes. In relationship with their loved one. I love that because a lot of the people in my life I found were difficult to love as well. That really got me excited about the research I was reading. That's great. As we look at these needed mindsets, explain why and how they are important before we go into them.

5:13 Well, as I compiled all the social science research, and so I did that so you all don't have to, I had to read all these academic journal articles. I saw the works and I went, oh. I make it easy for you. I discovered all the research was saying that in order to have a warm connection with someone, you need to have four things happening in this conversation. If one of them is missing, you won't have that warm connection. The four mindsets that you need are you need to be curious, genuinely curious about another person. You have to believe the best about them, which is really difficult if you're dealing with people that are difficult to love. What does it mean to believe the best about them? You have to express concern about their life, and you have to share your life as well, your struggles.

5:59 Now, as I read all those research articles, what delighted me most, Judy, is I kept thinking, where have I heard this before? This sounds familiar. It's all that Paul taught us in Philippians 2, Romans 12, Galatians 6, especially Philippians 2. Take on the interest of other people, value other people above yourselves. Think about Galatians 6 carrying each other's burdens and Romans 12. Out, do one another in showing honor, bless those who persecute you. It's just a beautiful look at how scriptures already taught us what all the social science research is just catching up to. I mean, isn't that amazing? Isn't that fun? Isn't that amazing that God already told us how best to live where we would thrive?

6:43 I love it. So the first mindset is to be curious. And for many prodigals, they are totally self-focused. And so how do we help them become curious? Well, when you're talking to someone who you're trying to have a warm connection with, curiosity is the most important... I tell my students it's the most important character and professional development skill. You really need... And the book gives six ways to be curious about other people. When you get outside of yourself and you're curious about other people, the research shows that you're happier, your marriages are stronger, you do better in your job, you're more creative.

7:28 So really teaching young people how to ask really good questions about one another is so important. I tell my students, have you all ever been on a date and the guy did not ask you one question about your life? And they all start laughing and they say, you know, Dr. H, nobody asks good questions anymore. So I love this book because I figured out, along with my husband Ash, six ways to be curious about other people. And you can ask questions in all the dimensions of being human. And when you're curious about other people, it is truly a loving act. And when you ask a good question, it makes the brain happier. So people love to be asked a really good, generous, meaningful question. So tell us about then the ways of...

8:11 Of being curious. Of being curious. A lot of people wait till the very end because... So I'm glad you asked that now. Most people do not know how to ask a really loving question. I just did a workshop at Penn State for their Leadership Academy and they just thought, this is amazing. We don't know how to ask a question. So anytime you're with someone, think that they have six dimensions to them, the six dimensions of what it means to be human. So you can ask a question in the social category, emotional, physical, cognitive, meaning what are they thinking about, volitional choices they've made and spiritual. So, for example, Judy, we haven't seen each other in a while and I don't have to ask you, you know, how are you doing?

8:53 That's emotional. And I know in your grieving journey, you may not want to talk about that today, but I could say, Judy, I haven't seen you in a while. Who have you been spending time with? Tell me about your best friends. Or I could say, Judy, I love that you're in Florida. I want to know about this house you have. Can you tell me about your garden? That's a physical question. I could ask a cognitive, which is my favorite. If I were to have coffee with you after this, Judy, I would say, Judy, tell me what you've been thinking about. What have you been reading? That's my favorite category of conversation. Volitional is really easy for young people. It's about decision. So if you're with your teenage sons or grandsons, you could say, hey, how did you decide to buy those shoes?

9:33 Tell me about your Nikes or your Hoka. How did you decide to buy those? They love talking about decision making and, of course, spiritual, which a lot of people think that's so judgmental, that's heavy, that's hard to talk about. Well, people like to talk about their spiritual lives without judgment, saying, you know, do you guys have any spiritual rituals that are helping you get through the day? And my students will open up about all the things they do to try to connect with God. So you have six pathways. You never have to get stuck starting or continuing a conversation again. Oh, that's that's wonderful. And we'll get a little more specifics on that as we go. So the next mindset is one of my favorites.

10:13 It's believe the best. And one of the reasons is that's what my husband did. Yes, he did. He always believed the best. In fact, when I would get annoyed and start to be critical about someone, I usually didn't show it to them. And he would say, so do you think you think they have an evil intent here? Or do you think, you know, or do you believe that they're really wanting to do what's right? Yes. And so I just think it's an incredibly important and helpful one to believe the best about people. And it is not the norm necessarily. No. And it was a huge area of discipleship and Christian growth for me to learn how to believe the best about people.

10:59 Believing the best means the research term is unconditional positive regard. You need to enact essentially what Romans 12 tells us to do and how you see Jesus interacting with people. You can tell he loves them deeply. And what I learned in the research is believing the best means you're showing people sort of favor. You're showing them the same grace that God has given to us. You're reserving judgment for God and not us. And then someone told me something that changed my life because I have a lot of neighbors that believe different things politically. They do things that I think are wrong. I have a lot of students that have lifestyles that I just think I cannot, I don't know how to talk to this person.

11:43 Someone said to me, Heather, people are not the enemy. Satan is the enemy. You're fighting the wrong battle, and our battle is not against flesh and blood. So when you believe the best about someone, you have to believe that this person has something to teach you. They are doing the best they can. They're doing whatever they need to do to get through the day. And if you believe that they have value and dignity and a one of a kind point of view on the universe, you're going to ask great questions and learn about them. So after I read this research, instead of being angry and nervous to talk to my neighbors, I would say, you know, for example, I have a medium that lives across the street and she's, you know, contacting the dead all day long in her house.

12:26 Instead of, you know, hating her or being judgmental, I decided to go across the street. And the other day I said, I would love to hear the story about how you became a medium. I was curious. She could tell I was believing the best about her. And by the end of the conversation, she said, I know, you know, you and your husband are Jesus followers. I would love to get together with you. I mean, Judy, it just opens up the door for warm connection. Even though I'm terrified, I thought, you know, my battle's not with her. It's with the enemy. So I don't know. Have you had that experience, Judy, where you had to put aside judgment and just say this person is a child? I'm going to believe the best about them. I'm going to learn something. It's a it's Philippians, too.

13:07 Yeah, you taught me that. You taught me that, Judy. You told me once, take the lowest place wherever you are. Do you remember when you said just take the lowest place? That's what I remember that now that you mentioned. I think your next book should be take the lowest place because when you're the lowest in the room, you are a servant to all and you are learning from people rather than judging them, even with your teen children, your college students that are driving you crazy. Learn from them. You could even say, I want to know the story about why you decided to do that or teach me what you're learning. It's going to open up so many warm connections. What about you, Judy? Do you do you have you had to put aside judgment like I have all the time?

13:51 Partly because, you know, we have our son, who's the reason I'm in the prodigal realm, who God sent to us when he was almost nine years old with terrible things from his background. Lots of issues in his life. And we were totally not prepared for what that it meant. And and so for me at first, but God really did a grace work in me. But it was harder for my husband. He just didn't know what to do with this person who made so many bad decisions and his values were so not what ours were. But, you know, we learned and I consider our son one of my best teachers I've had in my life because God used him so much to grow grace and unconditional love and believing in him.

14:48 And he was the one who was giving the best about people. And it's and the great thing is, it took a while for him and my husband to connect very well. But he was the one who wept the most when Steve died. So, oh, it's that warm connection. Yes, it was definitely there. And he has now on his Facebook, his profile pictures, a picture of him with his dad. And, you know, God does it, but it takes some work sometimes. It takes not demanding your own way, right? But saying, Lord, help me to be what you want me to be in this situation.

15:29 Yes, I was really moved by the the research that started really with therapeutic settings that the way to help someone change and grow is to accept them totally. To say to someone, I accept you totally. And when I started doing that with my children and getting out of the realm of judgment, they would just open up to me and want to spend time with me. Nobody. Have you ever been in a situation where you think people are judging you or wanting you to change? Oh, yeah. You don't want to be in that situation. But with my students, especially because an election year is coming up, I asked my students, you know, do you believe the best about people? And they said, no, when we meet people, we're wondering, who did you vote for? What does you believe about vaccines? What was your position on Roe v. Wade?

16:13 So the culture really needs to step out of judgment, get into the realm of storytelling. Tell me what you're learning and really believing you can learn from someone. And that's how people change. That's really good. The third mindset is express concern. So what does that look like? And how do we do that? Well, well, you're going to love this. You're a listening audience. This is so this was a life changing principle for me. And it's very easy when you meet people. There's just a couple of things I want you to ask about them. And it helps you in a Galatians six and Philippines to like take on the burdens of other people. You're not, you know, overwhelmed with everyone's problems.

16:53 But just knowing things like what are your major stressors? What upcoming decisions do you have to make? And then my daughter helped me with this question. What thought is keeping you up at night? Or what is the first thing on your mind when you wake up in the morning? And when I ask my friends these questions, I'm like you, Judy, I sometimes write down what the major stressor is for the week. So then I can ask about it later. So yesterday in class at Penn State, that was our attendance question. I said, OK, introduce yourself and tell us what your major stressor is for the week. And then the research shows that when I come back into class the next day, if I say, how did that go? You know, how was that interview or how did that thing go that you thought was really hard? It's going to be a closeness enhancing behavior.

17:35 We're going to be more connected. And so expressing concern means you show a special investment in someone else's success and you indicate that you're worried about the things they're worried about. And so children especially love it when you say, OK, what's the big worry for the week or what what's your very first thought when you wake up in the morning? You're going to learn so much about people. Isn't that a great question, Judy, to ask a child? It is a great question. What do you think about when my daughter was younger? I said, what do you think about when you wake up in the morning and she said sausage? She just said sausage. But that's how I knew breakfast mattered to her. And then later in life, I said, you know, what's the first thing you think about? And it was a lot of anxiety about tests and exams and just to be able to carry those burdens with people.

18:20 So it's a great question. What's your major stressor? What are your upcoming decisions and what thought is sort of keeping you up at night or what thought is there when you wake up in the morning? I love those questions. And that's a good way to start if you don't know how to begin a good conversation with someone. Yes, that is a good way to start. This is fun. I'm enjoying this. The fourth the fourth mindset, mutual sharing. Yes. That seems like you're inviting someone to talk about themselves and being able to listen more and talk less. I have this confession since my husband left for heaven.

19:03 I feel like I talk too much because people say, how are you doing? And I decide to tell them, hopefully to bless them some, but also to, you know, to express my own needs. And I just and I talk a lot and I go, I didn't use to talk this much. And so I'm working on coming back a little on the talking so much. And maybe I'm not doing it today very well, but and continuing to invite the person I'm with to to talk about what they want to.

19:44 Yes. And I think what you're doing when you share is actually the most important because you can be curious, you can believe the best about people and you can express concern. But if you don't share your own life, that's not a conversation, that's an interview. And what I learned to get that warm connection is after I've talked to people about, you know, what's going on, what are your major stressors? When they say, what about you, Heather? How are you doing? I actually need to have some things to share. A lot of people are really guarded and they're not vulnerable. But I decided to answer that question for my students. I said, OK, here's my biggest stressor this week. I'm speaking at this event this weekend. And then they feel close to me because I've shared my life.

20:25 Now, I'm like you. I love to talk. I have what's called high articulation needs. So I just like to watch the clock if I'm talking for more than two minutes at a time. And you can you can put any number in there, just time yourself. And when it starts to feel like you've been talking too much, then that's your time to ask a follow up question and get the conversation focused back on the other person. But you need to share your life. Otherwise, you won't have that warm connection that the research talks about. Oh, I think that's very important and and what's been encouraging to me is because I've posted on Facebook a great deal about my husband and what he was like and the things to learn from him, as well as our relationship.

21:09 And and sometimes I think I'm doing too much of this. And I get so many people who say, oh, please keep it up. Because for many of them, they knew him, too. And so they are appreciating that. But people love when we are willing to be vulnerable. Well, that's right. And grief is very isolating. So I'm very proud of you, if that's the right I mean, that you would be generous with your grief because it's so lonely and you and you're modeling to other people how to share your life. So Bravo, Judy Douglass. I love that you share your life. Bless you. Thank you. It's interesting. That's not something that's been hard for me to share my life, but that might be the writer in me that that wants to write.

21:56 And so if you don't share your life in your writing, unless it's technical or something, you know, but I just talk about how you live life. It's an important thing. And I am grateful that God gave me a willingness to do that. And I've had many people say, how do you do that? How do you share what you're feeling and what you're thinking so easily? And I said, because I want to bless other people. Right. And what God has done in my life will help them. Then that's wonderful or encourage them. Well, I think you're strongest in that mindset. I had to grow the most in believing the best and sharing my life.

22:38 It sounds like you were already strong in the Lord with vulnerability, sharing your life. So I think everyone listening has one mindset that they're probably strong in and one that they're deficient in. And so it's such an encouraging thing to keep growing in our faith and growing in these mindsets that are really about Christian maturity. Yes, they are. And even for listeners who are not believers, which are some of them, it's going to be helpful for sure in their relationship with their prodigal to be able to know that it's not all about the prodigal, but that God's doing the work in their life or they can learn from this.

23:21 And their prodigal will be responsive if they realize they have struggles, they have needs, things that stress them. And it's not just their focus on how bad their prodigal is. So that's true. So we've talked about the four mindsets of being curious and believing the best, expressing concern and mutual sharing. Could you kind of summarize and pull all this together and even give some hints about next week's conversation on the six conversations?

24:02 Yes. Next week, I'm hoping that we talk about how to really listen and how to continue to ask really meaningful conversations. The other thing is, once you have these four mindsets, so when you're with someone, always think, can I ask a really good question rooted in curiosity? Can I position my heart to believe the best about something, to believe that it's no accident that this person's here and they're on Marvel, they have infinite value and they can teach me something? What does it mean for me to be concerned about their life and take on their burdens? And then how can I really share my life and be self-aware enough to share my life? But what I wanted to end with is once you have those mindsets down and when we talk about how to ask great questions, one thing the research taught me is where a conversation should end, like what's a conversation for?

24:53 And I learned the three goals of a good connection are to encourage, to help someone in their personal goals and to help lead them to a state of marveling. So I can't wait to talk about that next week. I love it. Marvel just well, I just think... It's a great word, marveling. It's a wonderful word. And one of my main things in life is to see the awe, to have awe all the time. It's so good. And so many have lost it. There's just no sense of awe. We'll talk about it. And wonder. Yes. Good. That's great. So to my listeners, I encourage you, as we've talked about these four mindsets, to pick at least one to start with and ask God to guide you to specific ways you can use it to seek a loving conversation with your loved one.

25:49 That loved one may not want to talk, but I promise you that if you will follow these concepts, and it may not happen overnight, it may take some time, but as they see you genuinely curious about their life and caring about them and just believing that there's good there and you're trying to find it and then giving them a chance to share. So make that your goal this week to really try to apply this. And next week, don't miss because we're going to go further in this and you're going to learn even more that's going to help you in growing a more loving relationship with your prodigal.

26:37 God bless you.