Heather Holleman: Six Conversations, episode 112

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal, and also help and hope for your own life journey. Today, I am grateful to welcome back Heather Holleman for part two of Loving Conversations. She's a professor at Penn State, a writer, a speaker, a wife and a mother, and a conversation specialist. I asked her to join us because we all know how challenging it often is to have good conversations with our loved prodigals.

0:40 Last week, we discovered four mindsets for loving conversations, and this week, we will learn about the six conversations. Now, don't forget, you have to jot down anything you want to remember and apply, or you'll forget it. I'm just speaking from my own life. So welcome back, Heather. Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to rejoin you. This is going to be a great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you for being willing to come again. And I know my listers have already benefited from our conversation last week.

1:22 I'm trusting that they're really trying to apply how to have the right mindset as you try to talk to your loved prodigal. And I believe this week will be even better. The four mindsets, the three fresh goals, you'll have to read her book to find out about that. And the six conversations. Tell us about this approach. I've never seen anybody approach something like this before. Well, I'll never forget the day I was sitting in my chair, you know, journaling, reading my Bible, and my husband, Ash, he was serving as the National Director of Graduate Ministry for CRU at the time.

2:07 We were so frustrated because it was really hard to train people in the art of conversation. They would get stuck asking the first question. They would get stuck with follow-up questions, and there'd be that awkward pause. And Ash said to me, Heather, what if we just help people think about categories of conversational questions? And I was teaching from a book called Being Human in College, and we thought about the six dimensions of what it means to be human. And it was like a light bulb went off in my head. The six waves God made us were social people. We all have friends, and don't forget animal friends. We're all emotional. We all have emotions. We're all physical. We have bodies and physical spaces.

2:50 We all are thinking things. That's the cognitive category. We're all making choices and have decided things and will decide things. That's volitional. And then the spiritual category. So I took out my journal. I wrote down those six categories, and I thought to myself, I wish someone had taught me this in kindergarten, that I would never get stuck asking the first question. So immediately, once I had my four mindsets down of curiosity, believing the best, expressing concern, and sharing my life, I knew how to start asking great questions. And that summer, I was invited to a bridal shower, where I walked in. Nobody was talking. There was a lot of awkward conversations, and I thought, well, I'm going to start with an easy category, an emotional question.

3:33 I said to the first person, did anything surprise you about your summer? What most surprised you about your summer? And she said, oh, that's a great question. Nobody's asked me that. And I said, well, I didn't use the weak verb. How was your summer? I put a strong verb in there, Judy. And then I thought of the physical category. With neighbors I'm trying to connect with, I would say, we're all sports fans, so I would say a volitional one first. I would say, did you decide to go to the basketball game? And my neighbor would say, yeah, I decided to go. And I thought, well, now I have six categories for the next question. I decided to do social. Who did you go with? The physical, how does your body handle sitting in the stadium for that long?

4:17 Or spiritual, do you have any game day rituals where you pray for the players? I mean, Judy, it's changed my life to have these six categories. And I have so many warm connections with neighbors, students, and my family members. That's so good. That's awesome. I'm loving it. So let's go into them and into more depth. In this short time, we just get an overview, I know. But you have a book that I'll tell them about at the end. That will give them even more to be helpful. But I think there's still so much to learn even from this short conversation. So the first conversation is social.

4:58 And you say people like to talk about themselves. They love to talk about their friends. And I'm learning they love to talk about their animal friends. So I have a lot of little people on my street. So imagine third and fourth graders. And I read the research that young people love to talk about their friends. So I started with these young girls. I said, girls, I know it was the first day of school. Tell me about the lunch table. Who did you sit with? Judy, they went on and on. These little girls now just come over to hang out. And then finally, I thought, well, I know that people love to talk about their pets. So I said, do any of your friends have pets at home? Or have you seen any cool animals as you walk to school?

5:39 Now, the social question was so powerful that when my daughter came home from college and I went that first time, I thought, I want to have a warm connection with her. What's the best question I could ask? And she was sitting at the counter. You know, we're eating popcorn. And I'm just trying to connect. And I said, Sarah, I want to hear about all of your friends. 45 minutes later, she would not stop talking about this person, that person. And then I went into a physical question, the physical category. I said, OK, who sleeps the least in your dorm? Who is not getting a good night's sleep? On and on and on. 20 minutes later, she talked all about who's sleeping where and how there's, I don't know, Judy, it's just so great to start with the social question.

6:21 And people love to talk about their friends. I love saying, like, who have you been spending time with lately? You know, I did ask a student that. I'll never forget. I said, you know, tell me, who have you been spending time with lately? And he said, Dr. H, I am really lonely. I don't have any friends. So again, I had six pathways. So I said to him, well, you know, I decided to ask a volitional question. Well, what have you been doing about this? Like, what choices are you making to try to find good friends? We had such a loving, warm connection just walking down the stairs and out into campus and walking to the parking lot. You'll never get stuck starting or finishing a conversation or continuing a conversation.

7:03 That's so good. And I know that that really works. Social questions, because our lives are about people. They are. They are. And pets as well. People love to talk about their pets. They love it. They do. I got to go with my daughter and one day the kids to the dog park for their two dogs. So it was a lot of fun. And we talked to people who were there. Well, you know what's interesting? You know how young people often won't get off their phones? I decided you're going to love this, Judy. I decided at Penn State, I said to my students, I want you to introduce yourself to the class, but I want you to send us a picture of your pet.

7:46 They all send in a picture of their pets. So the next day they came into class and I did a PowerPoint presentation that was streaming like a video of all of their pets. They felt so connected to each other. They would not stop talking about their pets. So don't forget the power of asking to show a picture of your pet when you're trying to connect with someone. OK. Next is emotional. And since my husband died recently, the most common question that I get is how are you doing? Yes. And I've come up with some good and true answers that are positive and expressing also the really hard emotions that are there.

8:29 So how do you use emotional questions in just everyday conversation? Well, I will tell you that with young people, especially if they have felt judged in the past, sometimes how are you feels like a stressful question to young people. They don't want to open up their emotions. And it's unfortunately the number one question people ask, how are you? I know. I learned in the research too, and this is getting very technical in my neuroscience research, but the verb was is a or how are you? How were you? Are is a very stressful verb for the brain. It's very hard to picture. It's an existential verb. So if I said, Judy, how are you today? You might give me a one or two word answer. But if I said to you, Judy, if I put a strong verb in there, I said, Judy, what has surprised you most about your grief?

9:16 Or what's challenging you today about your grief? Your brain can picture that verb surprise or challenge. And it's easier for the brain to think of an answer. So with emotional questions, I try to get rid of that weak verb. And I'll ask a question that has a more curious verb in there. So instead of asking a professor, how is your semester? I'll say, what's challenged you most? What surprised you most? It's just a little trick I've learned with emotional categories. People do not like to talk about their emotions. It's too much as the first question. So I've stopped asking that. I usually ask it as a second question. So if I say, did you go to the game? And they say, yeah, I went to the football game.

9:57 Then I may say, how did you feel about that coach or that quarterback? But I would say to try to avoid the emotional category, since we're so used to asking in that category, I would expand out to other categories and see what kind of warm connection you get. What do you think about that, Judy? I think that's a good idea. Because you usually get, as you said in your book, fine or not fine. It's been a hard time. But it's very hard for people early in a conversation anyway to open up about themselves. And that's where the emotions are. And so yeah, I think postponing it a little is a great idea.

10:41 So the third is physical. How do you engage that? The physical category is such a wonderful category of conversation. And people rarely go there. Now, for example, I'm 47. I actually love to talk about my body as it's getting older. I love it when people say, Heather, I see you walking. Are you having any knee pain? Or what's it been like getting older? But people don't often start conversation or continue conversations asking about physical dimensions of what it means to be human. I love asking people, how have you been sleeping? I love talking about foods they're eating. But one of the things I love is asking people if they've done any home improvement projects.

11:25 Sometimes if I'm having a hard time connecting with an older person, I'll ask them about their property. Are they gardeners? The physical category is about physical spaces and then the physical body, anything that relates to physical things. So it's a wonderful category. And young people love it when you ask, have you changed anything about your dorm room? Tell me about your bedroom. Tell me about, you know, and the physical is also the sense of listening. The five senses. Ask about music they're listening to. I always ask my students, you know, what's the best meal you've had on campus recently or, you know, what song are you playing over and over again? You can actually keep your conversation in the physical category for a long time and you'll feel a warm connection with people.

12:10 Oh, yeah, because you're you're defining it very broadly. Yeah, so everything that's physical is in the physical category. And so that's that's a great idea. Yeah, I had some good conversations. My oldest grandson is very tall and he has got from his other grandmother a huge head of hair and he's just got lots of hair. So we had a conversation about his hair and does he is he liking it, having all that hair and how does he manage it? Because it's quite a bit to manage. I love that, Judy, I love that. My daughter told me people love it when you compliment their hair and ask them what their products are or their face.

12:55 Like, what's your skincare routine? I love that that was your instinct, because my daughter confirms that's a great direction to go. Well, it works with them. And I'm loving being able with all my grandchildren to go places I didn't even think to go with my kids a lot of time. That's right. Well, you know, when my daughter told me that people love a compliment and then to ask, you know, tell me how you got it that way. Like, I love your hair. How do you get it that way? Or I love your makeup. How do you get it that way? I have so much fun connecting with teenagers when I start with a physical compliment and I say, how did you get it that way? How did you get your they love it? I've learned more about the cool products. You know, that's that's great.

13:37 So fourth is cognitive. And I think you probably need to help us a little more to understand what that means. The cognitive category is when you remember that everyone is thinking. They think about things. They have things on their mind. It's the category of thoughts. So what have you been thinking about lately or like what I what I shared in the last episode, you know, what thoughts been keeping you up at night? I was meeting with a dean at Penn State last week, and I didn't start with the emotional or physical category. I said, you know, I said hello. And then I said, I know you're such an academic. You're such a researcher. What have you been thinking about lately?

14:17 And you would be amazed at the things he's researching. I learned that he's thinking deeply about taking a cross country train trip. At the end of that conversation, he sent my husband and me an invitation to the train trip. I mean, just ask people, what are they what are you thinking about? What I love is it really honors a person and it helps young people who feel insecure, especially if they don't feel as smart as their peers to know that they have thoughts that are really valuable and meaningful and they're one of a kind. When you ask a young person, tell me what you were what have you been thinking about today, you are going to be amazed what they say. Like, what have you been thinking about? Just ask people what's on their mind. And it's a wonderful, you know, I don't perceive it as a stressful conversation because you could even say and I consulted a trauma expert who said a loving question to ask someone is what thought goes through your mind that you can't get rid of?

15:12 What thought has been going through your mind that you can't get rid of? And you will just hear people talk about their stress or memories they're having. I asked a woman who was grieving. She had a tragic loss of her son. And because the trauma expert said to ask in the cognitive realm, I said, you know, do you have a thought that's going through your mind that you can't get rid of? And she gives permission to share this, but she said, well, I don't want to say because I don't want to traumatize you. I don't want to say what's going through my mind. And I said, well, what if we just took four minutes and you could tell me everything and I will carry that burden for you? She told me the thought that was going through her mind about the death of her son.

15:52 And then it was so meaningful to her that the next day there was a thank you gift in my mailbox and she said, you know, can we keep meeting? I'm paying my grief counselor a fortune, but she never asks good questions like you do. You know, so it's wonderful to ask people, you know, tell me what you've been thinking about lately and you're going to learn a lot from people. And then when they throw it back to you, a lot of my evangelism conversations, my conversations about Jesus or because professionals or students will say, you know, what about you, Heather? What have you been thinking about? And that's when I tell people, well, I was reading this in Deuteronomy, you know, and they'll be like, tell me, no one ever says no when I say, can I tell you what I've been thinking about when I read the Bible this morning?

16:32 So be prepared. Those of you who are Bible readers, when they say, what have you been thinking about? You're going to have lots of opportunities to talk about Jesus. Oh, that's great. That really is good and helps because people would love to tell people about their relationship with Jesus. And yet they don't know how to start a conversation that takes them there. So that's that's excellent. So the fifth one that we're looking at is volitional. Something I'm sure is part of how we need to talk to a prodigal, even without even being told you're asking them, what did you do?

17:13 Why did you choose that? Were you rethinking? You know, they make bad choices. And that's what volition is a lot about choices. Yes, now, yeah, volition is like human agency, the choices that you're making, why you decided something, what are upcoming decisions? What I've learned about the volitional category is when a student, for example, or one of my own children, if they've made a choice I disagree with, I have to go back to that mindset of believing the best. So sometimes when I say, you know, why did you decide to do that? I soften it by saying, I would love to know the story about why you decided to go to that event. Or I can tell you care so deeply about this.

17:54 Tell me the story about how you decided that that softens it. So you're not accusing them like you made a bad choice. It's more like, I want to know why you decided that. And while they're telling you that story, the secret, which I hope we get into what you're listening for, Judy, is their core values. People make decisions rooted in their core values. They're not waking up in the morning and saying, I'm going to be evil and hurt my parents. They're not doing that. They're making choices based on their core values. So for example, you know, if I have a daughter who's procrastinating and her room is a mess and she's not doing anything she's supposed to do, when I read the research on how to listen and really see what that child values, it changed the whole conversation.

18:42 So instead of accusing her or judging her, I'll say, Sarah, like when you go about your day, I want to know what's most important to you. Well, guess what? She does not value organization cleanliness. She likes creative pressure. She likes thinking for a long time and then waiting for the last minute because it gives her that adrenaline that she needs. So instead of criticizing her, I'm like, Sarah, I can tell you really value your creativity. You value your work process. Never again did I make her clean up her room. Plus, she's an adult. What can I do now? But you know what I mean? I just learned. She just doesn't value the same things I do. And then I can say, well, tell me about what you did decide to do.

19:22 If they don't do what I want them to do, my job is to figure out how did you decide to do that? Now, the other thing I love about Volitional, decision making is incredibly stressful for people. They get decision fatigue. So if I said to you, Judy, tell me about some of the decisions that you have before you this week. And I would love to hear about anything you want to talk about. Can I help you with any decision making? That would be such a blessing for you. When I ask my students, OK, tell me about your big decisions this week, they love talking about it. And then if they ask your opinion, it also opens up the door to spiritual conversations because you're so wise, Judy, and you've written a lot about biblical wisdom. How do you have wisdom applied to decision making?

20:05 So you're going to love this conversational category because if a prodigal says to you, well, I have to make this decision and you could say, well, what principles are you using to make that decision? And then you can you can let them know, like, OK, here's how I would make this decision. So yeah. And again, you've got that warm and loving connection. You're staying out of judgment and they'll open up to you. I love that. And that's one of the things I learned a lot from my husband is he was wise in making decisions. And so he I'm actually next week or the week after talking about that concept on this because we need to make good decisions.

20:47 But the people that we are invested in their lives who are not necessarily making good decisions, we need to help them learn to grow in that without being controlling or judgmental. And that's a hard thing. I know when they're younger, you have more control, but you still need to do that wisely with respect to who they are as a person. But then when they get older, you don't have control anyway. And so that's really helpful. And I think that the listeners will be able to pick up on that and recognize they need to understand the values of the person and what is bringing them to the decisions that they're making.

21:35 Now, they may not be core values for them. They may be emotional teenage values, if that's where they are, or they may be frightened young adults who don't know how they're going to make it kind of values as opposed to their really, their great values. But they also may be who they are as a person. Well, even articulating to someone, you know, as you're talking, I can tell you value, they're going to feel so loved. So with the young person, I was like, you know, as you're talking, I can tell you really value adventure. And most of your decision making is about what's going to be the most fun and adventurous. And they'll say, Yes, that is me. That's 100% who I am. Or with one daughter who spends a lot of time like say you have a daughter that's really into fashion, really into her clothes and makeup and physical fitness.

22:23 And instead of judging her as being materialistic, you could say, you know, as you talk, I can tell you really value aesthetics and beauty. And God made you this. I mean, it's going to be just a different kind of warm connection when you look at what people are valuing and you do it without judgment. I love that. And you're putting higher caliber words, like to take a session with with makeup and fashion and put it to beauty and aesthetics. Yes, you're giving them a vision that, oh, this is more than just this. And yes, it's identifying them. Yes. I really like that.

23:05 So the final, the sixth conversation is spiritual. And I know that many of our listeners, some that's not their highest priority, but for most of them, it is a really high priority that their prodigal has walked away from what they believe and what they've tried to teach them. And so how to have spiritual conversations without sounding judgmental or condemning or just have, you know, negative thoughts about them. Well, I love the spiritual category, especially being a college professor.

23:47 I love and they all know I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian public figure. But part of it is changing the words you use. Like one of the other the other questions I asked my students was, do you guys ever feel like you were like in the presence of something supernatural? Have you ever experienced something that you thought was supernatural? They go on and on. And if they tell me about ghosts, I'll say, do you guys believe ghosts are real? Because I don't know what I believe about that, because the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If you're like, I'll just invite them into my own theology. Or the other day with the medium, you know, she was talking about contacting the dead. So I just said, well, the Bible talks about demons. Like, do you believe in the demonic?

24:28 I mean, just go there. People love to talk about the spiritual side of life and they're thinking about it. I have a lot of students who are Wiccan. They practice they actually practice witchcraft. So instead of being afraid, part of believing the best is I want to learn from you why this is attractive to you. Does it have power? Do you believe what the Bible says about witches? For example, I just went there in office hours with a student who was a practicing witch. And guess what? She came back the next week. She wanted to talk more. So part of it is not being afraid. You never see Jesus nervous or afraid to talk to people who have different religious beliefs. The other thing is when you have a warm connection and you're talking to people about their spiritual rituals, when they say, what about you?

25:14 What what do you do for mental health or spiritual health? I also love talking about the category of prayer, asking people what they believe about prayer. Can I pray for you? And for people who don't believe in God, they'll say, Dr. H, I know you keep a detailed prayer journal. I'm an atheist, but could you put me in that prayer journal? You know, they know. So and young people, especially if they've walked away from like a traditional Christianity, I love talking to them. Like I'll say, well, do you miss anything about your Christian upbringing? Like do you miss anything about it? And I had a student burst into tears when I asked her that, you know, she said she did miss God. And you know, ask emotional questions. Do you miss it?

25:54 Do you is there anything? You know, I don't know when you're not judging people and you're really trying to have a warm connection with them and you're not approaching them in fear, you're going to have such a warm and beautiful connection. But most of my conversations are about people's prayer rituals. Everyone's talking about prayer on the college campus. Is it real? We need God's help. You know, climate change, politics. People are kind of desperate. So ask about like, well, what are we going to do? Yeah, what do you think? I love spiritual conversations, but you connect more with people who are prodigals. Do you feel like it's a dangerous category or do you find, Judy, that you can say, yeah, I'll pray for you or what are you guys thinking about God these days? Do you find success with those conversations?

26:36 I think when the conversation doesn't come across as you're trying to change or convert them, but you're sharing from your personal life, you're sharing what it's meant for you. I've never had any trouble with that. And I can also ask questions. Like I have a young woman who's sort of related to me that I've been discipling for years. And she in earlier in high school was pretty strong spiritually, but as she's now in her 20s, she's not as much and she's doing lots of crystals and candle things.

27:17 And she had me asked for Christmas one time. She asked me for a big thing to put on the wall that's one of the, I forget what they're called. And so I talked to the Lord about it and I said, should I get her this or not? And I decided that at this point I should because I'm trying to make sure I maintain a non-judgmental. A warm connection. Yes. And that's what she wanted in her choices and what she's interested in change often. And so I figure, well, this is now. But we still can talk about the Lord.

28:00 And she knows where I stand and she's not rejecting it. She's just, which I understand is true of an awful lot of young people, are just trying out different things. Yeah, they're trying out things. I loved how you sought the Lord. That's a good way to wrap up my thoughts on the six conversations is to, if you're a believer, inviting the Holy Spirit in and kind of have the conversation by faith. Ask the Holy Spirit, who's our source of all wisdom, to put in our mind a really good question that will bless that person. I do that a lot when I'm on the college campus. I say to the Lord, what do you think I should ask here? Just like how you asked about, should I give this? The Holy Spirit will lead you. We forget that we have this ever present help in our time of need.

28:43 What would bless this person? What is a great question to help bless this person? Yeah, that's important. And I love these different kinds of conversations just to see the ways that we can talk. Most adults, I think, are afraid to try to talk to younger people. You don't need to be afraid. Right? You don't. I just did a barbecue with a super reserved college student and I was like, Lord, what's going to open him up? And I said, who's the most interesting person you've met in your dorm? He did not stop talking for 15 minutes about the characters in his dorm room.

29:27 If you can discern, therefore you need to spend some time. Of course, listeners, you've written down which of these will be most helpful to you or that you want to practice first. But as you start to do this, God will give you wisdom, but you can have to pull out of your knapsack, so to speak, the ways to approach people and to ask them questions. And so this is a hugely valuable toolbox that Heather has given us today. And again, because most of us are dealing with people who have chosen a different path or have rejected us in many cases, many cases, and you're looking for any opportunity to get the warm connection restored.

30:20 And so these are ways to think about it. And so if I were you, I would even think about that person that I really love and would love to restore or enhance our connection that you would think, all right, I'm going to look at these questions and see which ones and what kind of question I might ask that would be most likely to open a heart as well as a mind. And so I would just encourage you to be doing that. So choose at least one of the conversations to try with your prodigal. But don't stop with one.

31:01 Experiment with different ones as much as you are able to have conversations. I know some live with you and you have more opportunity. Others are away at school or living on their own and some have rejected you. And so your conversations at this point are more with God. But you can even use these conversations to guide you in praying for them. What are their needs? What are they afraid of? What can I pray for them that will have the most impact as you answer those prayers? So you're looking for ways always to have relationship.

31:42 And that most comes from having these loving conversations and not the accusing conversation and not the condemning conversation and not the anger that is built up in you at how they have made these bad decisions. So the more we can put aside our feelings at this point and look for those opportunities to love them through our words, through our attitudes, through our believing in them, our caring for them, all of those things and then using as we have chances the different ways to enter in to ask the questions, I think we'll begin to see some changes.

32:28 Some of it may happen almost immediately because they're not so far away from us. But some of them will take time. And so you can't try one and say, well, that didn't work. But say, okay, that's a good start. And then try another approach and always to keep praying. And I encourage you to get Heather's book. And on the Moody website, and I'll send them to you, Judy, I have a bunch of free resources for your listeners that you can get a free excerpt of the first chapter. There's also my list of 100 favorite questions that I ask my students and a little handout if you get stuck in conversation.

33:09 So I'll make sure that you have all of those to give away on your website. Yes, we will have a lot of resources from Heather on the show notes. Which you will only see if you go to my website or to my podcast on the Charisma Podcast Network or to Apple. Sometimes Spotify has them, but not regularly. So the rest of those wonderful podcast networks don't really give you the resources and the things that you'd like to be able to share with your readers. So I encourage you to get her book, The Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility.

33:54 Oh, boy, we didn't even talk about that at all. So Heather, thank you. I'm just so grateful. I think these are going to be such rich opportunities for the listeners to make some progress in loving their prodigal in a way that draws them back. Maybe first to them and then to the Lord, but maybe first to the Lord and eventually to them if there's been a real dissection there. So thank you so much. And next week, listeners, I'm going to start a series of several episodes that I'll be sharing called Learning from Steve.

34:41 My husband was a wise person who loved God and walked well with him, believed the best of people, really sought out ways to show love to them, and also made good decisions for his life. And so I'm going to share some of those with you, especially that I think will apply to your relationship with your prodigal. Again, thank you, Heather. You're welcome. This has been so fun. Well, fun for me as well. And to my listeners, may God do something very special for you and your prodigal this week.

35:22 God bless you.