Heather Holleman: Six Conversations, episode 112

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey

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right here at When You Love a Prodigal,

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and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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Today, I am grateful to welcome back Heather Holleman for part two of Loving Conversations.

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She's a professor at Penn State, a writer, a speaker,

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a wife and a mother, and a conversation specialist.

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I asked her to join us because we all know how challenging it often is

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to have good conversations with our loved prodigals.

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Last week, we discovered four mindsets for loving conversations,

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and this week, we will learn about the six conversations.

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Now, don't forget, you have to jot down anything you want to remember and apply,

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or you'll forget it.

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I'm just speaking from my own life.

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So welcome back, Heather.

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Oh, thank you.

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I'm so glad to rejoin you.

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This is going to be a great conversation.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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Thank you for being willing to come again.

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And I know my listers have already benefited from our conversation last week.

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I'm trusting that they're really trying to apply how to have the right mindset

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as you try to talk to your loved prodigal.

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And I believe this week will be even better.

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The four mindsets, the three fresh goals,

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you'll have to read her book to find out about that.

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And the six conversations.

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Tell us about this approach.

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I've never seen anybody approach something like this before.

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Well, I'll never forget the day I was sitting in my chair,

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you know, journaling, reading my Bible, and my husband, Ash,

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he was serving as the National Director of Graduate Ministry for CRU at the time.

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We were so frustrated because it was really hard to train people

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in the art of conversation.

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They would get stuck asking the first question.

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They would get stuck with follow-up questions, and there'd be that awkward pause.

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And Ash said to me, Heather, what if we just help people think about categories

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of conversational questions?

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And I was teaching from a book called Being Human in College,

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and we thought about the six dimensions of what it means to be human.

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And it was like a light bulb went off in my head.

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The six waves God made us were social people.

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We all have friends, and don't forget animal friends.

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We're all emotional.

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We all have emotions.

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We're all physical.

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We have bodies and physical spaces.

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We all are thinking things.

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That's the cognitive category.

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We're all making choices and have decided things and will decide things.

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That's volitional.

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And then the spiritual category.

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So I took out my journal.

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I wrote down those six categories, and I thought to myself,

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I wish someone had taught me this in kindergarten,

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that I would never get stuck asking the first question.

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So immediately, once I had my four mindsets down of curiosity,

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believing the best, expressing concern, and sharing my life,

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I knew how to start asking great questions.

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And that summer, I was invited to a bridal shower, where I walked in.

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Nobody was talking.

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There was a lot of awkward conversations, and I thought, well,

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I'm going to start with an easy category, an emotional question.

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I said to the first person, did anything surprise you about your summer?

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What most surprised you about your summer?

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And she said, oh, that's a great question.

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Nobody's asked me that.

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And I said, well, I didn't use the weak verb.

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How was your summer?

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I put a strong verb in there, Judy.

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And then I thought of the physical category.

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With neighbors I'm trying to connect with, I would say,

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we're all sports fans, so I would say a volitional one first.

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I would say, did you decide to go to the basketball game?

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And my neighbor would say, yeah, I decided to go.

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And I thought, well, now I have six categories for the next question.

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I decided to do social.

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Who did you go with?

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The physical, how does your body handle sitting in the stadium for that long?

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Or spiritual, do you have any game day rituals where you pray for the players?

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I mean, Judy, it's changed my life to have these six categories.

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And I have so many warm connections with neighbors, students, and my family members.

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That's so good.

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That's awesome.

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I'm loving it.

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So let's go into them and into more depth.

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In this short time, we just get an overview, I know.

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But you have a book that I'll tell them about at the end.

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That will give them even more to be helpful.

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But I think there's still so much to learn even from this short conversation.

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So the first conversation is social.

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And you say people like to talk about themselves.

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They love to talk about their friends.

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And I'm learning they love to talk about their animal friends.

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So I have a lot of little people on my street.

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So imagine third and fourth graders.

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And I read the research that young people love to talk about their friends.

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So I started with these young girls.

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I said, girls, I know it was the first day of school.

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Tell me about the lunch table.

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Who did you sit with?

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Judy, they went on and on.

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These little girls now just come over to hang out.

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And then finally, I thought, well, I know that people love to talk about their pets.

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So I said, do any of your friends have pets at home?

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Or have you seen any cool animals as you walk to school?

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Now, the social question was so powerful that when my daughter came home from college

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and I went that first time, I thought, I want to have a warm connection with her.

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What's the best question I could ask?

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And she was sitting at the counter.

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You know, we're eating popcorn.

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And I'm just trying to connect.

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And I said, Sarah, I want to hear about all of your friends.

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45 minutes later, she would not stop talking about this person, that person.

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And then I went into a physical question, the physical category.

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I said, OK, who sleeps the least in your dorm?

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Who is not getting a good night's sleep?

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On and on and on.

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20 minutes later, she talked all about who's sleeping where and how there's,

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I don't know, Judy, it's just so great to start with the social question.

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And people love to talk about their friends.

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I love saying, like, who have you been spending time with lately?

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You know, I did ask a student that.

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I'll never forget.

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I said, you know, tell me, who have you been spending time with lately?

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And he said, Dr. H, I am really lonely.

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I don't have any friends.

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So again, I had six pathways.

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So I said to him, well, you know, I decided to ask a volitional question.

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Well, what have you been doing about this?

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Like, what choices are you making to try to find good friends?

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We had such a loving, warm connection just walking down the stairs

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and out into campus and walking to the parking lot.

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You'll never get stuck starting or finishing a conversation

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or continuing a conversation.

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That's so good.

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And I know that that really works.

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Social questions, because our lives are about people.

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They are.

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They are.

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And pets as well.

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People love to talk about their pets.

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They love it.

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They do.

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I got to go with my daughter and one day the kids to the dog park for their two

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dogs.

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So it was a lot of fun.

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And we talked to people who were there.

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Well, you know what's interesting?

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You know how young people often won't get off their phones?

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I decided you're going to love this, Judy.

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I decided at Penn State, I said to my students,

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I want you to introduce yourself to the class,

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but I want you to send us a picture of your pet.

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They all send in a picture of their pets.

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So the next day they came into class and I did a PowerPoint presentation

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that was streaming like a video of all of their pets.

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They felt so connected to each other.

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They would not stop talking about their pets.

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So don't forget the power of asking to show a picture of your pet

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when you're trying to connect with someone.

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OK.

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Next is emotional.

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And since my husband died recently, the most common question that I get

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is how are you doing?

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Yes.

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And I've come up with some good and true answers that are positive

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and expressing also the really hard emotions that are there.

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So how do you use emotional questions in just everyday conversation?

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Well, I will tell you that with young people,

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especially if they have felt judged in the past,

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sometimes how are you feels like a stressful question to young people.

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They don't want to open up their emotions.

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And it's unfortunately the number one question people ask, how are you?

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I know.

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I learned in the research too, and this is getting very technical

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in my neuroscience research, but the verb was is a or how are you?

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How were you?

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Are is a very stressful verb for the brain.

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It's very hard to picture.

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It's an existential verb.

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So if I said, Judy, how are you today?

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You might give me a one or two word answer.

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But if I said to you, Judy, if I put a strong verb in there,

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I said, Judy, what has surprised you most about your grief?

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Or what's challenging you today about your grief?

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Your brain can picture that verb surprise or challenge.

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And it's easier for the brain to think of an answer.

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So with emotional questions, I try to get rid of that weak verb.

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And I'll ask a question that has a more curious verb in there.

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So instead of asking a professor, how is your semester?

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I'll say, what's challenged you most?

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What surprised you most?

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It's just a little trick I've learned with emotional categories.

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People do not like to talk about their emotions.

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It's too much as the first question.

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So I've stopped asking that.

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I usually ask it as a second question.

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So if I say, did you go to the game?

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And they say, yeah, I went to the football game.

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Then I may say, how did you feel about that coach or that quarterback?

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But I would say to try to avoid the emotional category,

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since we're so used to asking in that category,

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I would expand out to other categories and see what kind of warm connection

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you get.

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What do you think about that, Judy?

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I think that's a good idea.

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Because you usually get, as you said in your book, fine or not fine.

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It's been a hard time.

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But it's very hard for people early in a conversation anyway

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to open up about themselves.

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And that's where the emotions are.

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And so yeah, I think postponing it a little is a great idea.

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So the third is physical.

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How do you engage that?

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The physical category is such a wonderful category of conversation.

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And people rarely go there.

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Now, for example, I'm 47.

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I actually love to talk about my body as it's getting older.

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I love it when people say, Heather, I see you walking.

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Are you having any knee pain?

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Or what's it been like getting older?

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But people don't often start conversation or continue conversations

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asking about physical dimensions of what it means to be human.

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I love asking people, how have you been sleeping?

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I love talking about foods they're eating.

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But one of the things I love is asking people if they've

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done any home improvement projects.

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Sometimes if I'm having a hard time connecting with an older person,

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I'll ask them about their property.

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Are they gardeners?

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The physical category is about physical spaces and then

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the physical body, anything that relates to physical things.

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So it's a wonderful category.

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And young people love it when you ask, have you changed

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anything about your dorm room?

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Tell me about your bedroom.

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Tell me about, you know, and the physical is also the sense of listening.

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The five senses.

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Ask about music they're listening to.

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I always ask my students, you know, what's the best meal you've had on

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campus recently or, you know, what song are you playing over and over again?

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You can actually keep your conversation in the physical category for a long time

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and you'll feel a warm connection with people.

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Oh, yeah, because you're you're defining it very broadly.

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Yeah, so everything that's physical is in the physical category.

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And so that's that's a great idea.

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Yeah, I had some good conversations.

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My oldest grandson is very tall and he has got from his other grandmother

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a huge head of hair and he's just got lots of hair.

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So we had a conversation about his hair and does he is he liking it,

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having all that hair and how does he manage it?

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Because it's quite a bit to manage.

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I love that, Judy, I love that.

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My daughter told me people love it when you compliment their hair

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and ask them what their products are or their face.

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Like, what's your skincare routine?

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I love that that was your instinct, because my daughter confirms

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that's a great direction to go.

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Well, it works with them.

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And I'm loving being able with all my grandchildren to go places

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I didn't even think to go with my kids a lot of time.

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That's right.

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Well, you know, when my daughter told me that people love a compliment

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and then to ask, you know, tell me how you got it that way.

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Like, I love your hair. How do you get it that way?

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Or I love your makeup. How do you get it that way?

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I have so much fun connecting with teenagers when I start

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with a physical compliment and I say, how did you get it that way?

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How did you get your they love it?

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I've learned more about the cool products.

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You know, that's that's great.

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So fourth is cognitive.

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And I think you probably need to help us a little more

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to understand what that means.

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The cognitive category is when you remember that everyone is thinking.

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They think about things. They have things on their mind.

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It's the category of thoughts.

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So what have you been thinking about lately or like what I what

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I shared in the last episode, you know, what thoughts been keeping you up at night?

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I was meeting with a dean at Penn State last week, and I didn't start

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with the emotional or physical category.

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I said, you know, I said hello.

283
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And then I said, I know you're such an academic.

284
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You're such a researcher.

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What have you been thinking about lately?

286
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And you would be amazed at the things he's researching.

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I learned that he's thinking deeply about taking a cross country train trip.

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At the end of that conversation, he sent my husband and me an invitation

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to the train trip. I mean, just ask people, what are they what are you thinking about?

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What I love is it really honors a person and it helps young people

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00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,000
who feel insecure, especially if they don't feel as smart as their peers

292
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to know that they have thoughts that are really valuable and meaningful

293
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and they're one of a kind.

294
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When you ask a young person, tell me what you were what have you been thinking

295
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about today, you are going to be amazed what they say.

296
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Like, what have you been thinking about?

297
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Just ask people what's on their mind.

298
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And it's a wonderful, you know, I don't perceive it as a stressful conversation

299
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because you could even say and I consulted a trauma expert who said

300
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a loving question to ask someone is what thought goes through your mind

301
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,320
that you can't get rid of?

302
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,760
What thought has been going through your mind that you can't get rid of?

303
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,920
And you will just hear people talk about their stress or memories they're having.

304
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,360
I asked a woman who was grieving.

305
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She had a tragic loss of her son.

306
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And because the trauma expert said to ask in the cognitive realm, I said, you know,

307
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do you have a thought that's going through your mind that you can't get rid of?

308
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And she gives permission to share this, but she said, well, I don't want to say

309
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because I don't want to traumatize you.

310
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I don't want to say what's going through my mind.

311
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And I said, well, what if we just took four minutes and you could tell me everything

312
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,800
and I will carry that burden for you?

313
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She told me the thought that was going through her mind about the death of her son.

314
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And then it was so meaningful to her that the next day there was a thank you gift in my

315
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,080
mailbox and she said, you know, can we keep meeting?

316
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,840
I'm paying my grief counselor a fortune, but she never asks good questions like you do.

317
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,760
You know, so it's wonderful to ask people, you know, tell me what you've been thinking

318
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,840
about lately and you're going to learn a lot from people.

319
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,640
And then when they throw it back to you, a lot of my evangelism conversations, my

320
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,120
conversations about Jesus or because professionals or students will say, you know,

321
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:21,960
what about you, Heather?

322
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,680
What have you been thinking about?

323
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,640
And that's when I tell people, well, I was reading this in Deuteronomy, you know, and

324
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,600
they'll be like, tell me, no one ever says no when I say, can I tell you what I've been

325
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,800
thinking about when I read the Bible this morning?

326
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:33,920
So be prepared.

327
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,680
Those of you who are Bible readers, when they say, what have you been thinking about?

328
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,800
You're going to have lots of opportunities to talk about Jesus.

329
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,280
Oh, that's great.

330
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:47,480
That really is good and helps because people would love to tell people about their

331
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,360
relationship with Jesus.

332
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,520
And yet they don't know how to start a conversation that takes them there.

333
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,040
So that's that's excellent.

334
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:03,400
So the fifth one that we're looking at is volitional.

335
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:10,320
Something I'm sure is part of how we need to talk to a prodigal, even without even being

336
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,160
told you're asking them, what did you do?

337
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,880
Why did you choose that?

338
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,320
Were you rethinking?

339
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,280
You know, they make bad choices.

340
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,440
And that's what volition is a lot about choices.

341
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:29,040
Yes, now, yeah, volition is like human agency, the choices that you're making, why you decided

342
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,040
something, what are upcoming decisions?

343
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,680
What I've learned about the volitional category is when a student, for example, or one of

344
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,800
my own children, if they've made a choice I disagree with, I have to go back to that

345
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,080
mindset of believing the best.

346
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,440
So sometimes when I say, you know, why did you decide to do that?

347
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,640
I soften it by saying, I would love to know the story about why you decided to go to that

348
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,640
event.

349
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,440
Or I can tell you care so deeply about this.

350
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,800
Tell me the story about how you decided that that softens it.

351
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,840
So you're not accusing them like you made a bad choice.

352
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,200
It's more like, I want to know why you decided that.

353
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,440
And while they're telling you that story, the secret, which I hope we get into what

354
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:16,160
you're listening for, Judy, is their core values.

355
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,040
People make decisions rooted in their core values.

356
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:24,120
They're not waking up in the morning and saying, I'm going to be evil and hurt my parents.

357
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,120
They're not doing that.

358
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,040
They're making choices based on their core values.

359
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:32,560
So for example, you know, if I have a daughter who's procrastinating and her room is a mess

360
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,040
and she's not doing anything she's supposed to do, when I read the research on how to

361
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,480
listen and really see what that child values, it changed the whole conversation.

362
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:48,240
So instead of accusing her or judging her, I'll say, Sarah, like when you go about your

363
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,640
day, I want to know what's most important to you.

364
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:51,640
Well, guess what?

365
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,160
She does not value organization cleanliness.

366
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,120
She likes creative pressure.

367
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:01,040
She likes thinking for a long time and then waiting for the last minute because it gives

368
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,400
her that adrenaline that she needs.

369
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,840
So instead of criticizing her, I'm like, Sarah, I can tell you really value your creativity.

370
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,440
You value your work process.

371
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,320
Never again did I make her clean up her room.

372
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,320
Plus, she's an adult.

373
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:15,320
What can I do now?

374
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:16,320
But you know what I mean?

375
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,640
I just learned.

376
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,720
She just doesn't value the same things I do.

377
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,720
And then I can say, well, tell me about what you did decide to do.

378
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,360
If they don't do what I want them to do, my job is to figure out how did you decide to

379
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:28,360
do that?

380
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:32,840
Now, the other thing I love about Volitional, decision making is incredibly stressful for

381
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:33,840
people.

382
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,260
They get decision fatigue.

383
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:40,160
So if I said to you, Judy, tell me about some of the decisions that you have before you

384
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,160
this week.

385
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,660
And I would love to hear about anything you want to talk about.

386
00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:46,160
Can I help you with any decision making?

387
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,680
That would be such a blessing for you.

388
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,000
When I ask my students, OK, tell me about your big decisions this week, they love talking

389
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
about it.

390
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,900
And then if they ask your opinion, it also opens up the door to spiritual conversations

391
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:02,340
because you're so wise, Judy, and you've written a lot about biblical wisdom.

392
00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:05,160
How do you have wisdom applied to decision making?

393
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:10,160
So you're going to love this conversational category because if a prodigal says to you,

394
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,020
well, I have to make this decision and you could say, well, what principles are you using

395
00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:15,720
to make that decision?

396
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,720
And then you can you can let them know, like, OK, here's how I would make this decision.

397
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:20,720
So yeah.

398
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,780
And again, you've got that warm and loving connection.

399
00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:25,960
You're staying out of judgment and they'll open up to you.

400
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,720
I love that.

401
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:35,800
And that's one of the things I learned a lot from my husband is he was wise in making decisions.

402
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:45,640
And so he I'm actually next week or the week after talking about that concept on this because

403
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,420
we need to make good decisions.

404
00:20:47,420 --> 00:20:53,560
But the people that we are invested in their lives who are not necessarily making good

405
00:20:53,560 --> 00:21:02,960
decisions, we need to help them learn to grow in that without being controlling or judgmental.

406
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,520
And that's a hard thing.

407
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,660
I know when they're younger, you have more control, but you still need to do that wisely

408
00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:12,920
with respect to who they are as a person.

409
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,880
But then when they get older, you don't have control anyway.

410
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,560
And so that's really helpful.

411
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:27,520
And I think that the listeners will be able to pick up on that and recognize they need

412
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:34,520
to understand the values of the person and what is bringing them to the decisions that

413
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,520
they're making.

414
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,340
Now, they may not be core values for them.

415
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:45,160
They may be emotional teenage values, if that's where they are, or they may be frightened

416
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,080
young adults who don't know how they're going to make it kind of values as opposed to their

417
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,880
really, their great values.

418
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,680
But they also may be who they are as a person.

419
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,920
Well, even articulating to someone, you know, as you're talking, I can tell you value, they're

420
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,000
going to feel so loved.

421
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,000
So with the young person, I was like, you know, as you're talking, I can tell you really

422
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,960
value adventure.

423
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,560
And most of your decision making is about what's going to be the most fun and adventurous.

424
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,360
And they'll say, Yes, that is me.

425
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:14,320
That's 100% who I am.

426
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,940
Or with one daughter who spends a lot of time like say you have a daughter that's really

427
00:22:18,940 --> 00:22:23,520
into fashion, really into her clothes and makeup and physical fitness.

428
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,880
And instead of judging her as being materialistic, you could say, you know, as you talk, I can

429
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,680
tell you really value aesthetics and beauty.

430
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:33,680
And God made you this.

431
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,080
I mean, it's going to be just a different kind of warm connection when you look at what

432
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,720
people are valuing and you do it without judgment.

433
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,100
I love that.

434
00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:52,080
And you're putting higher caliber words, like to take a session with with makeup and fashion

435
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,640
and put it to beauty and aesthetics.

436
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,840
Yes, you're giving them a vision that, oh, this is more than just this.

437
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,920
And yes, it's identifying them.

438
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,920
Yes.

439
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,040
I really like that.

440
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,880
So the final, the sixth conversation is spiritual.

441
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:17,840
And I know that many of our listeners, some that's not their highest priority, but for

442
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:25,760
most of them, it is a really high priority that their prodigal has walked away from what

443
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,120
they believe and what they've tried to teach them.

444
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:39,320
And so how to have spiritual conversations without sounding judgmental or condemning or

445
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,320
just have, you know, negative thoughts about them.

446
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,520
Well, I love the spiritual category, especially being a college professor.

447
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,520
I love and they all know I'm a Christian.

448
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,320
I'm a Christian public figure.

449
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,680
But part of it is changing the words you use.

450
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,640
Like one of the other the other questions I asked my students was, do you guys ever

451
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,160
feel like you were like in the presence of something supernatural?

452
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,080
Have you ever experienced something that you thought was supernatural?

453
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,960
They go on and on.

454
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,760
And if they tell me about ghosts, I'll say, do you guys believe ghosts are real?

455
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,000
Because I don't know what I believe about that, because the Bible says to be absent

456
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,360
from the body is to be present with the Lord.

457
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:19,520
If you're like, I'll just invite them into my own theology.

458
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,260
Or the other day with the medium, you know, she was talking about contacting the dead.

459
00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:25,800
So I just said, well, the Bible talks about demons.

460
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,200
Like, do you believe in the demonic?

461
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,640
I mean, just go there.

462
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,160
People love to talk about the spiritual side of life and they're thinking about it.

463
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,280
I have a lot of students who are Wiccan.

464
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,280
They practice they actually practice witchcraft.

465
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,680
So instead of being afraid, part of believing the best is I want to learn from you why this

466
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:45,960
is attractive to you.

467
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:46,960
Does it have power?

468
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,880
Do you believe what the Bible says about witches?

469
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:55,280
For example, I just went there in office hours with a student who was a practicing witch.

470
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,280
And guess what?

471
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,720
She came back the next week.

472
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,920
She wanted to talk more.

473
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,720
So part of it is not being afraid.

474
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,800
You never see Jesus nervous or afraid to talk to people who have different religious beliefs.

475
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,580
The other thing is when you have a warm connection and you're talking to people about their spiritual

476
00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:14,480
rituals, when they say, what about you?

477
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,280
What what do you do for mental health or spiritual health?

478
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,000
I also love talking about the category of prayer, asking people what they believe about

479
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000
prayer.

480
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000
Can I pray for you?

481
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,320
And for people who don't believe in God, they'll say, Dr. H, I know you keep a detailed prayer

482
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,320
journal.

483
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,600
I'm an atheist, but could you put me in that prayer journal?

484
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,600
You know, they know.

485
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:38,440
So and young people, especially if they've walked away from like a traditional Christianity,

486
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,600
I love talking to them.

487
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,000
Like I'll say, well, do you miss anything about your Christian upbringing?

488
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,480
Like do you miss anything about it?

489
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,080
And I had a student burst into tears when I asked her that, you know, she said she did

490
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,880
miss God.

491
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,760
And you know, ask emotional questions.

492
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,760
Do you miss it?

493
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,760
Do you is there anything?

494
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,960
You know, I don't know when you're not judging people and you're really trying to have a

495
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,480
warm connection with them and you're not approaching them in fear, you're going to have such a

496
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,880
warm and beautiful connection.

497
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,240
But most of my conversations are about people's prayer rituals.

498
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,400
Everyone's talking about prayer on the college campus.

499
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,400
Is it real?

500
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,400
We need God's help.

501
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,940
You know, climate change, politics.

502
00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:17,160
People are kind of desperate.

503
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,040
So ask about like, well, what are we going to do?

504
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,520
Yeah, what do you think?

505
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,620
I love spiritual conversations, but you connect more with people who are prodigals.

506
00:26:25,620 --> 00:26:30,440
Do you feel like it's a dangerous category or do you find, Judy, that you can say, yeah,

507
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,920
I'll pray for you or what are you guys thinking about God these days?

508
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,960
Do you find success with those conversations?

509
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,800
I think when the conversation doesn't come across as you're trying to change or convert

510
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:48,440
them, but you're sharing from your personal life, you're sharing what it's meant for you.

511
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,440
I've never had any trouble with that.

512
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,320
And I can also ask questions.

513
00:26:54,320 --> 00:27:01,360
Like I have a young woman who's sort of related to me that I've been discipling for years.

514
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:08,680
And she in earlier in high school was pretty strong spiritually, but as she's now in her

515
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:17,000
20s, she's not as much and she's doing lots of crystals and candle things.

516
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,720
And she had me asked for Christmas one time.

517
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:29,720
She asked me for a big thing to put on the wall that's one of the, I forget what they're

518
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:30,720
called.

519
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,240
And so I talked to the Lord about it and I said, should I get her this or not?

520
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:42,000
And I decided that at this point I should because I'm trying to make sure I maintain

521
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000
a non-judgmental.

522
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,000
A warm connection.

523
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,000
Yes.

524
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,720
And that's what she wanted in her choices and what she's interested in change often.

525
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:56,320
And so I figure, well, this is now.

526
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,320
But we still can talk about the Lord.

527
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,040
And she knows where I stand and she's not rejecting it.

528
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:09,280
She's just, which I understand is true of an awful lot of young people, are just trying

529
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,480
out different things.

530
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,280
Yeah, they're trying out things.

531
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,360
I loved how you sought the Lord.

532
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,560
That's a good way to wrap up my thoughts on the six conversations is to, if you're a believer,

533
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,520
inviting the Holy Spirit in and kind of have the conversation by faith.

534
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,520
Ask the Holy Spirit, who's our source of all wisdom, to put in our mind a really good question

535
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,600
that will bless that person.

536
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,640
I do that a lot when I'm on the college campus.

537
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,080
I say to the Lord, what do you think I should ask here?

538
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,520
Just like how you asked about, should I give this?

539
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:38,640
The Holy Spirit will lead you.

540
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,880
We forget that we have this ever present help in our time of need.

541
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,120
What would bless this person?

542
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,080
What is a great question to help bless this person?

543
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Yeah, that's important.

544
00:28:53,320 --> 00:29:03,560
And I love these different kinds of conversations just to see the ways that we can talk.

545
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:09,240
Most adults, I think, are afraid to try to talk to younger people.

546
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,720
You don't need to be afraid.

547
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,720
Right?

548
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,720
You don't.

549
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,600
I just did a barbecue with a super reserved college student and I was like, Lord, what's

550
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,600
going to open him up?

551
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,560
And I said, who's the most interesting person you've met in your dorm?

552
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,680
He did not stop talking for 15 minutes about the characters in his dorm room.

553
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,880
If you can discern, therefore you need to spend some time.

554
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,760
Of course, listeners, you've written down which of these will be most helpful to you

555
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,880
or that you want to practice first.

556
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:47,160
But as you start to do this, God will give you wisdom, but you can have to pull out of

557
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:53,780
your knapsack, so to speak, the ways to approach people and to ask them questions.

558
00:29:53,780 --> 00:30:01,760
And so this is a hugely valuable toolbox that Heather has given us today.

559
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:08,360
And again, because most of us are dealing with people who have chosen a different path

560
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:17,200
or have rejected us in many cases, many cases, and you're looking for any opportunity to

561
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,080
get the warm connection restored.

562
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,880
And so these are ways to think about it.

563
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:29,320
And so if I were you, I would even think about that person that I really love and would love

564
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:36,320
to restore or enhance our connection that you would think, all right, I'm going to

565
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,920
look at these questions and see which ones and what kind of question I might ask that

566
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,700
would be most likely to open a heart as well as a mind.

567
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:52,600
And so I would just encourage you to be doing that.

568
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:58,780
So choose at least one of the conversations to try with your prodigal.

569
00:30:58,780 --> 00:31:01,560
But don't stop with one.

570
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,880
Experiment with different ones as much as you are able to have conversations.

571
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,720
I know some live with you and you have more opportunity.

572
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:17,120
Others are away at school or living on their own and some have rejected you.

573
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,800
And so your conversations at this point are more with God.

574
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,720
But you can even use these conversations to guide you in praying for them.

575
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,140
What are their needs?

576
00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:29,760
What are they afraid of?

577
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:36,720
What can I pray for them that will have the most impact as you answer those prayers?

578
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,640
So you're looking for ways always to have relationship.

579
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:51,560
And that most comes from having these loving conversations and not the accusing conversation

580
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:58,240
and not the condemning conversation and not the anger that is built up in you at how they

581
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,040
have made these bad decisions.

582
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:08,400
So the more we can put aside our feelings at this point and look for those opportunities

583
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:15,240
to love them through our words, through our attitudes, through our believing in them,

584
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:22,480
our caring for them, all of those things and then using as we have chances the different

585
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:28,920
ways to enter in to ask the questions, I think we'll begin to see some changes.

586
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:34,320
Some of it may happen almost immediately because they're not so far away from us.

587
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,940
But some of them will take time.

588
00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:41,000
And so you can't try one and say, well, that didn't work.

589
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,120
But say, okay, that's a good start.

590
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,240
And then try another approach and always to keep praying.

591
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,820
And I encourage you to get Heather's book.

592
00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:56,940
And on the Moody website, and I'll send them to you, Judy, I have a bunch of free resources

593
00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:02,220
for your listeners that you can get a free excerpt of the first chapter.

594
00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:07,580
There's also my list of 100 favorite questions that I ask my students and a little handout

595
00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:09,280
if you get stuck in conversation.

596
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,880
So I'll make sure that you have all of those to give away on your website.

597
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:18,920
Yes, we will have a lot of resources from Heather on the show notes.

598
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:26,960
Which you will only see if you go to my website or to my podcast on the Charisma Podcast Network

599
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,720
or to Apple.

600
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,880
Sometimes Spotify has them, but not regularly.

601
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:39,140
So the rest of those wonderful podcast networks don't really give you the resources and the

602
00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:43,960
things that you'd like to be able to share with your readers.

603
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:52,040
So I encourage you to get her book, The Six Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an

604
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,960
Age of Isolation and Incivility.

605
00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:01,040
Oh, boy, we didn't even talk about that at all.

606
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,400
So Heather, thank you.

607
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,920
I'm just so grateful.

608
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:12,240
I think these are going to be such rich opportunities for the listeners to make some progress in

609
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:17,980
loving their prodigal in a way that draws them back.

610
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:22,760
Maybe first to them and then to the Lord, but maybe first to the Lord and eventually

611
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,200
to them if there's been a real dissection there.

612
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,680
So thank you so much.

613
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:38,000
And next week, listeners, I'm going to start a series of several episodes that I'll be

614
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,720
sharing called Learning from Steve.

615
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:48,360
My husband was a wise person who loved God and walked well with him, believed the best

616
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:56,400
of people, really sought out ways to show love to them, and also made good decisions

617
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:57,440
for his life.

618
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:03,960
And so I'm going to share some of those with you, especially that I think will apply to

619
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,360
your relationship with your prodigal.

620
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,160
Again, thank you, Heather.

621
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:10,160
You're welcome.

622
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,160
This has been so fun.

623
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,520
Well, fun for me as well.

624
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:21,320
And to my listeners, may God do something very special for you and your prodigal this

625
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,320
week.

626
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:42,720
God bless you.