Help for Hurting Parents—Convo w Tom & Dena Yohe, episode 92

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here

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at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. And also help and hope for your own life journey.

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And today you are really going to get help and hope because I have here in the studio with me

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two wonderful people. And if you've listened to the podcast before very much, you may have been

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listening to them separately. Dena Yohe has been with me once where we talked about how you

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survived the holidays with a prodigal. And we played it again this Christmas. And then Tom Yohe,

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her husband, had a book come out this past year. And so he came and talked about that book. It's

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called Moments of Clarity. And so you might hear some about that while we're talking. But what we're

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really going to do is find out about the ministry that God has given them called Hope for Hurting

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Parents. And so Tom and Dena, welcome again to our podcast. Thank you, Judy. Thank you for having us.

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And I'm excited. We've been studying sort of in our podcast the last few weeks about treasures

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to be found on the prodigal journey in the wilderness. And so you will give them some

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new treasures, I'm sure. So let me tell you a little bit about them. They've had a long hard

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journey. And they've had a daughter who had some struggles. And God has redeemed it in very special

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ways. They might also say the journey isn't over till maybe you get to heaven because things

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keep happening and stuff. But they have done a beautiful job of letting God take the hard things

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in their journey and turn it into blessing for a lot of other people. So I would love to have you

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all just first of all give us an overview of the journey and what led you to where you are now.

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Well, when we began a journey with our daughter, she was young and as she got older, it progressed.

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And I remember just being so ignorant regarding a lot of the things that she was struggling with.

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I had never heard of some of the things. She was a self-injurer and that was so foreign to me. And

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then as she moved into other things, I just felt lost and confused. And I didn't know which way to

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turn. We didn't know other families that were experiencing this when we were experiencing it

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with our daughter. So it was very isolating. And I want to try to fix things. And that was not helpful.

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Don't we all want to fix things?

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As fast as possible.

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I couldn't find the fix at all. I had no idea how to go, where to go, and how to start. And so it was

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very, very tough part for me. We went through years of her being in and out of rehabs and

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hospitals in the psychiatric ward. A very, very painful and frightening journey.

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In fact, you didn't even know where she was sometimes.

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Correct.

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That's so frightening.

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Terrible.

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Yeah, really scary. So how did you get to where you are from that?

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Well, it actually started when I discovered something called Prayer for Prodigals

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because we were on staff with CRU and we were desperate for resources. And I didn't know where

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to turn. I didn't know who I could talk to, who could understand. And I discovered this

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wonderful website where I could post my prayer requests. People would send messages back to me.

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And I didn't know how to pray anymore other than, God help, save my daughter. And there were prayers

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I could use for my own and devote. It was just a treasure. It was a great resource. And through

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that, I got to know you a little bit. And just kind of one thing led to another where my heart

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began to grow for other parents that were suffering like we were.

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That's kind of where the seeds started. And then we went to a conference for other hurting parents.

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And I discovered we weren't the only ones. And up until then, we didn't know anybody else being in

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full-time ministry who were going through anything like we were.

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That might be because they didn't let anyone know.

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Exactly. They were hiding just like we were, ashamed and embarrassed. And we didn't want anybody to know.

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Unique to us, our story went public rather early on after our daughter was in her first rehab.

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She was even interviewed on NBC Nightly News. So we didn't have to hide anymore.

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Couldn't.

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And as people would hear about what we were going through, because it was out in the open,

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they began to come to us for someone to talk to. Someone, oh, at least we had a little

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bit of a conversation. Someone, oh, at least you're going through what I am.

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And it just kind of mushroomed from there to seeing how God could use me even in my pain and

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suffering in the middle of it to encourage somebody else. So it was just over time that as

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we met more and more people, we developed more and more of a burden to do something about that.

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And so we attended some well-known 12-step programs, anything that we could find in the community

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that would give us some support. And we found a wonderful program that was community sponsored.

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We attended that for a year. And after that time, we just felt like these groups are good and we

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gained a lot from them. But we wanted to bring in scripture. We wanted to bring in prayer. We

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wanted God to be more than just a God of our understanding. And so we thought, why don't we

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start a support group in our home? And so that's what we started to do. And we incorporated the

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best of the other groups and added in what we felt was missing. As Dena was blogging and sharing

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some of the things that were going on in our group, other parents began to say, we don't have

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anything like this. Gosh, I wish we did. And so we began praying, how can we help? What can we do

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to help these parents? So we came up with the idea of writing a facilitator guide and a parent

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notebook that at least if somebody felt led to step up, they would have some tools to do that with.

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That sounds like a great idea.

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That took us a long time to get to that point. I think it was a couple years of working on

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ourselves before we felt like we had enough emotional health and sanity to start that first

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support group in our living room. And then it was six or seven years of doing that before we ever

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put this material together to give to others. A long process.

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So what helped you the most in growing and getting to the point where you could do that?

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How did you began to feel you had something to offer?

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Well, as time went by, and of course, some of the things that we gained from these other groups,

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the vulnerability, not isolating, finding other people that they couldn't carry or

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support you in that journey because they're going through similar things themselves.

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So finding other people who was with same struggles, those were all very, very helpful

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and supportive. And I think as we constantly praying, as we went through everything with her,

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God began to do things in our lives. I realized how proud I had become.

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And so God was working on humility in me. He was working on all of us.

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Yes, yes. Different ways.

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Yes. More compassion for people who are hurting. And I think, again, trying to grow in just

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becoming honest. Honest with God, who already knows everything anyway, but honest with myself

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and other people. You've just hit on what we all need, that we need the humility, we need the

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honesty with God, and we need compassion for people because everyone's on a journey. And it

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may not be the same journey that you're on, but it's to recognize those things and let God do that

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work in you so that you then can be of help to other people.

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One of the other things is it was something totally unexpected. As we did our group and as

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we experienced things in the other groups, we saw people's lives change. They had a hard time maybe

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seeing it, but we could observe it in them and we can see them become different people than when

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they first walked in the room. And so it began to stir, I think, the privilege of being involved in

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people and their pain in their journey, but also being able to observe God working in their lives

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and bringing about the change, the transformations that are just marvelous.

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I like that. So I have a question that's kind of an insert here.

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Were you all together on this all the time? Because this is the kind of thing that causes divorce.

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We've seen a lot of that too. Yes, it can either destroy your marriage or it can make it stronger.

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Fortunately for us, it made it stronger. We knew, well, Tom had learned years ago when he was in

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college from a professor that when you're under a crisis of any kind, to guard your marriage. Tom,

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you want to share a little about that? Yes, there was a statement made when I was young. I was single.

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No real context for that statement, but it's marvelous the way God brought him back decades

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later. And so it was one of the first things that God kind of nudged in my mind. You have to guard

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your marriage. You don't want the enemy to get two for one. What if Renee gets healthy? What if she

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does return? And we're the mess. That's not the way. So we took intentional steps to guard our

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marriage. We made sure we had date nights, made sure that our prodigal wasn't a topic that date night.

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That's hard. Very hard. It's got to be a no prodigal zone, we called it. And wow, that's tough.

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Yes. And then we attended marriage conferences, family life marriage conferences, our children

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had some marriage classes that we attended those. So we intentionally built into our relationship.

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And because it was a struggle, you know, we're not always on the same page. We're feeling different

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emotions at different times. And depending on what the issue is, we can flip flop. Like, why don't

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you feel the way I do right now? And then we would take turns being the heart, the mean one, the bad

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guy, because it's not right for me to always be the bad guy. You got to be bad guy sometimes too.

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You mean in talking to the product. Oh, yes. Right. When they're in your home, or you're

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refusing to give them money or what have you, that it's not always one of you that is delivering the

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news they don't want to hear. Go ahead. Just that we knew that, all right, eventually, hopefully,

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Lord willing, our children aren't going to be with us forever. And one day it will be just the

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two of us. And we want there to be an us still there that's healthy, because it's not all about

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them. They become the focus of our world. But we tell parents in our group, don't let your child

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become the sole focus of your life. You still have a life. We lose ourselves along the way,

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especially when it goes on for years and years of whatever their challenge or problem might be,

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of whatever their challenge or problem might be, trying to save them, fix them, help them,

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draining ourselves individually as well as in our marriages. And we forget who we are, and that

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God may still have dreams for us that we just set aside. So we talk about these things in our groups,

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because all the parents that we are working with struggle with those things.

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Generally, I think most would. It's a very divisive kind of event in the midst of your marriage. And

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you all have different strengths. And so those two different strengths, I mean, you might have three

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or four, and three or four, you know, but they come together to make a really strong, or they get

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separated and are against each other. So this is really good and probably helps a lot for people.

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We spent a lot of time up in our bedroom, hashing through, getting on the same page,

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because we said we can't bring this to Renee until we are, because they're so wise, so smart,

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at figuring out where their weakness is, and then exploiting it to get us arguing among each other

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and taking the tension off of her. So it was a long, tedious, it didn't come easy at all.

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Yeah, we knew we had to be a united front. Even if he was saying something to her that I didn't

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agree with, I knew I could not, we agreed not to disagree with the other person in front of them.

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Don't tell them, no, don't do that. Say that later in privacy, because like he said,

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that's all they need to see, so they know who they can pit against the other.

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And they start being able to do that in about one year or two years.

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Way too smart. But we were always together from the beginning in wanting to do this ministry,

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doing it together. Yes, we have our strengths where we focus, but totally supportive of each other

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and doing it together, which is a blessing. Yeah, we facilitated the groups together,

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and we do as much as we can together. But then again, Dena has excellent strengths in writing,

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in communicating, which I don't, so she really thrives in that area.

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Your book's pretty good. So tell me then, you're starting a group, how do you go about that? How do

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you decide who gets to be in it? Or for groups you were running, not just ones you're gonna,

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that's a little, in a minute we'll get to. But what happens in these groups?

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Our group was open to any particular issue. We felt like the issue wasn't the main focus,

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it was the pain that the parent was experiencing. That's what we had in common. And so we would try

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to address that and stay focused on that. So we didn't limit it. There was some, if their

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child is young and they're not doing homework, it wouldn't be appropriate. And they'd probably

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be overwhelmed by some of the stories they would be hearing in our groups.

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Yes. And so I think those are, and then there's, I think some issues that maybe our group just

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can't address and that there may be other resources we can hopefully direct them to and help them

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find. So the unique thing is that the focus is not helping the parent figure out how to change or

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fix their child. The focus is them, you, the mom, the dad, helping you cope, helping you process your

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emotions, finding support and community, the help that you need for yourself. And that's disappointing.

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The first time I went to a 12-step meeting, I just knew that was where I was going to find out what

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to do to change my daughter. And I was so disappointed when they said this at the beginning,

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this is not to help you change your, and I'm like, oh, then why am I here?

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That's what I want to do.

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I need help. Yeah, me, I'm a mess. Yes, I do need help to figure out how to manage myself.

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So the parent is the focus. And we have time where we share a little bit of our journeys,

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where we're at. Then we focus on a topic, something that's helpful, uplifting, encouraging.

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It could be grief and loss, which we didn't even realize we were grieving because our daughter was

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still alive. And then that was a whole new, aha, discovery. Worry, fear, hope, resilience, resentment,

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all these key topics that we all struggle with. We talk about that. We bring in scriptures,

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we pray for each other, we help each other find connection. And the beautiful thing is that people

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discover that it really is true that they're not alone. That's the greatest value. We ask people,

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what do you need most tonight? Just to know it wasn't just me, that all these other people,

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they're going through things too. Not the same thing, but we all have the same pain. And that's

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such a blessing. Not the pain, but we're not the only ones.

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Yeah, I would agree with that. People feel so left out, so alone, and isolated, the word you used.

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And they need to know they don't have to be isolated. So can you kind of give us a little

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picture of what it looks like when you're together and how you would go about talking about the

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topics? Well, one of the things we do is we have group guidelines we've written. Because they're,

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you know, in a small group, you do have to manage that a little bit. Yes, you do. They're talking

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to people and there are people who, you know, want to offer what we'll call unsolicited advice

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on what somebody else ought to be doing. And so we read these guidelines every time we meet.

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I think that's a great idea. Yeah. And so we want people to stay familiar with that. And we stress

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confidentiality, you know, that who you see here stays here, what you hear stays here. But you can

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share the content. You can talk about the content you might talk about, but not about what individuals

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are saying. And so then we'll introduce the topic for the evening. And, you know, we can be at

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various places in regarding to how I think about that topic. And that's okay. That's okay. We're

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just trying to get people to talk, basically, to engage and to open up. Because we think as the

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group, really, we don't want to teach. We focus on being facilitators. Discussion-oriented.

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Discussion-oriented. We want them to talk more than we do so that they can gain from the benefit

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of everybody in the group. So we take turns reading part of the content in our parent notebook, but

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you don't have to have a book to be in a group. You can just listen. A statement will be read,

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and then we just talk about it. So there's no right or wrong. So read a statement. Read a statement.

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All right. I have the book here. All right. This is on worry and anxiety.

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It doesn't make sense to worry yourself sick about things that are not in your control.

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Worry gives a false sense of control over something we can't do anything about.

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And we may say, so what's something that you're worried about with your child today? So it's a

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jumping point for discussion. So that's just one example.

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That's great. I'm just trying to help people to say, if I were to do this, what does it look like?

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And how do they feel about that? Because some people like that kind of thing, and some people

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might not, but they're so desperate, they might do it anyway. Well, and we tell people, because we

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have both in-person and online groups, and in-person is always better to be with people.

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Of course it is. But when you can't and there's nothing in your area, the online groups have been

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fantastic. And that was a blessing that came out of the pandemic. Now we have about 12 of them in

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different time zones and different days and nights of the week. But we always tell people, and part

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of the guidelines, you do not have to talk in this group. No judgment. Because like Tom used to say,

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he came to one of those 12-step meetings years ago and couldn't say anything for a long time,

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just wasn't ready. So we take the pressure off, you don't have to talk. You can just listen.

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And when you're ready, if you want to say something, you can. When people share briefly what brings

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them to need a group like ours, they don't have to say anything. And we tell them this, if you don't

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want to say anything, that's fine. But often after they hear everyone else say, my son is in prison,

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or my daughter's in rehab, or my child is in a mental institute, then they feel like, oh, okay.

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And often we'll share.

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Well, I think one of the other things we have is our website is they can download a free sample

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that has all the introductory material on how to start a group, as well as the first session in the

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facilitator guide. So they can get a sense. They can look at it, get a sense of what it's like,

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and maybe how it would work out before they ever would step in. And once a facilitator says,

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you know, I want to do this, they're not signing a contract of any kind.

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I was going to say, can they just do it?

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They can just do it, or they can just stop it. You know, we've had facilitators saying, you know what,

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I'm just not at the place I thought I was, and this is triggering me a little more than I thought

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it would. So I need to back away. No, that's fine. We don't want anybody to...

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I love such freedom.

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Well, and the same thing with people who come to the groups. We say, you're not making a commitment.

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Come, see what it's like, see if it's the right thing for you.

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So, yes, that's... Again, we want people to

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see if this is the right thing for them and feel free to come or not come. Although we say,

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the more regular you do come, the healthier you're going to be sooner. Not that it will fix your

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problems, but you're going to handle them better. You're going to be healthier.

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That's great. So do you have one or two groups going on that you personally do, or most of them

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out there?

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Well, we have limited capacity. So we do an in-person group together. We do an online group

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together. And then Dena has a women's only group that meets during the day. And she does that with

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one of our other teammates that has come on board with our ministry. And we have a group that's

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ministry. And so there's three groups that we do personally. And then there's almost 50 groups.

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Really? 50? Wow.

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In person around the country.

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That's awesome.

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New ones start all the time, some drop off, and new ones start up.

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Then we have about a dozen online groups, as Dena mentioned before, that meet at different times of

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day, different time zones to try to help accommodate as much as we can.

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And so they go to the website and get the material and then run with it?

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They get the sample. And then they make a decision if they want it. And then they can order the

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facilitator guide and the parent notebook if they want, or tell the parents or in their group to

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get a notebook.

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And if they download the free sample, one of our teammates reaches out to them and offers any

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assistance they might feel the need for, whether it's promoting it, just pray with me, how do I

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advertise, how do I do? We offer all as much or as little help as they want. And the cool thing,

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Judy, about these online groups is that in the beginning, they were like ours. They were for

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any parent dealing with any topic. If it's breaking your heart, welcome, come to the group.

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But now some of the parents have come to us and said,

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I'd like to start a group that is just for parents who are dealing with eating disorders with their

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child. So we have that. Another one came to us and said, I'd like to offer a group just for parents

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whose children have serious mental illness. They're not dealing with anything else, no drugs, no

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alcohol. It's just that because it's a little different. So they started that. And it's just

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been growing. There's one for just estrangement. This is becoming a huge problem. And we began to

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hear from a lot of parents saying, let me know if you start a group just for that, because it's so

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different from the other issues people are dealing with. And so we had several people come forward

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and say, they would do that. So we now have two groups because there were so many people,

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one in the evening and one during the day. And now recently we have a grief group just for moms.

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Again, one of the moms that was in our group for quite some time, her son died. And she, within a

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couple of months, felt led to start a group just for other moms who lost their children for any

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reason, overdose, suicide. That's beautiful. So we are just in awe. It seems like we're starting

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to feel like we planted a little seed. We were just willing and available and still not in a good,

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not completely well, but much better. And then it's like this tree has started to grow and all

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these branches are going out, reaching so many people. And there's still so many more that need

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help though. So we pray that Lord will bring more people to want to start a group. One of the other

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things we've done too is we have two teammates who will reach out and help them with their group.

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But we also have a secret Facebook page just for facilitators so they can interact and get

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festive ideas and that back and forth. And then we started a quarterly, we call it a facilitator

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meet and greet, where we pull all the facilitators together and then we talk about, so what are the

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issues that you're facing? What would you like to see addressed? Is there something that we can

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bring to you that would be helpful? So we're just trying to support them in whatever ways we can.

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And that meeting is also for anyone who thinks they might want to start a group. They're curious,

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they're checking it out so they can come and just hear what others are saying, ask questions.

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So that's been a wonderful addition that we started. And then we have a Facebook

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public page, just hope for hurting parents. And then we have a Facebook private group,

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just one more avenue of offering support and connection. And that is for anyone who

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just wants to vent, have a place to share prayer requests, ask for resources or help.

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So we're grateful, or just always looking for new ways to offer another way of providing our three

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core values, hope, encouragement, and comfort to parents. Wow. So how do they connect with you?

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They primarily go to the website. And that is? HopeforHurtingParents.com. And there's a place

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there where they can reach out to us, they can contact us. And it's also where they can download

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the sample, as I mentioned before, they can get introduced to our team. We have a page for that.

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And then we have quite a lot of resources as far as books go. You have a big list, I know.

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Yeah, we got several pages of books that are recommended people have read and stuff that they

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could take advantage of. And we also do list some other organizations. You know, there's

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organizations that maybe specialize in adoption issues. And there's other organizations that

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specialize in other type of issues. So we list those, try to list those as well.

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That's what. So what I want to make sure you do is give me what I should put as resources for people

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that they'll be able to. You can say things now, but they won't. They're listening in their car.

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Right. So I've taken to saying, tell Sari to write this down. Right, right. Send you a text.

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But I will put it in show notes. But a lot of the platforms don't show the show notes.

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And that's really very inconvenient. So we're working to try and make sure we get the show notes

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and where people can access them. So tell me about your books. Tell me about yours. It's been out longer.

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Well, I never dreamed I would write a book. I was not a writer. And when people kept telling me,

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you should write a book, because I was writing a lot of blogs and emails and stuff like that.

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I was writing a lot of blogs and emails to parents. And I found a wonderful Christian writers group

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and started going. And God helped me. It took about three years. Yes, it's called You Are Not Alone,

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Hope for Hurting Parents of Troubled Kids. And basically it is how God helped me cope and survive

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the years with our daughter. It's not like then this happened and that happened. That would be

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depressing and I think boring. It's where he met me on the journey, how he helped me cope with my fear,

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denial, shock. And then the unique thing that makes it so special to me is that our daughter, Renee,

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wrote what she would want to say to parents who were dealing with maybe just finding out their

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child has a mental illness. They've been sexually assaulted. Their child has relapsed. The issue of

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forgiveness. And it's so wonderful to hear her voice, her perspective that kind of helps you.

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It gives you a little window into your child's heart and maybe helps you understand them a little

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better. But I also give a lot of practical tips that help me process fear, be honest with God

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about my feelings, things like that. So I just was so blown away when God just opened the doors

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and gave me opportunities to share about the book. And Tom came with me and we talked about our

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ministry as well with Jim Daly with Focus on the Family, with Dr. Dobson on his Family Talk

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radio program, and on the New Life, Family Life program with Dennis Rainey. And through that,

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we were able to reach more people. So that's my book. And I'm just about to publish any day now

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a study guide to go along with it that can be used either yourself individually or in a group.

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So that's... Well, it's a wonderful book. And I borrowed from you on a number of occasions.

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That's fine. I try to give you credit. I do the same thing with you.

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And I really appreciated also the list of recommendations on various topics and books.

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So that's been helpful. And sadly, your book came out right after mine was published.

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Or is it in here? No, I think yours came out right after.

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Yeah, it came out after yours did. And because you sent me a list, it didn't have the name of

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your book. So you're not listed in mine. Oh, thank you. I went, wait, wait, where's Dena's book?

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And Tom, tell us about your book. Yeah, Dena's encouragement was to write things down

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and put together. I call it Moments of Clarity, Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal.

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And it's those moments when God broke through to me at a time when I really needed a breakthrough.

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And there were several of them along the journey. And they stand out. They were vivid. And they were

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very helpful at the time. And so I put some of those down in the book. It's a very short read.

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People could probably read it. Some people are going to read it in an hour, hour and a half,

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maybe. And I want fathers to pick it up. Well, and that's a good thing, because fathers

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are a little less reluctant often to engage in this way. So I really hope fathers will pick it up.

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But I get comments from moms as well, and other people. So it just has those particular nuggets,

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those particular moments of clarity. I want to share a couple of them.

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Well, I kind of titled them in an odd way, a different way. You know, they're not like,

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you know, anxiety or fear or whatever. One of them is, Can They Carry Your Suitcase? You know,

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that's the title of the chapter. Another one is, Who Owns the Problem? Another one is, Is It a Piano?

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Well, yeah. Okay.

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Yeah, because not all issues are the same. And we might be dealing with several

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hard issues simultaneously. And so it's a way to sort through which are the piano issues,

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which might not carry as much weight or need as much attention or focus. I have one in here,

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Don't Project. You know, I got so used to interacting with Renee and just responding to her

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that when my younger daughter, who wasn't anything like Renee, came to me and I just,

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who was going to be there? What are you going to be doing? Were there any guys that there? You know,

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and she says to me, Dad, I'm not Renee. I go, Oh, wow. Yeah, you're not. You don't deserve that.

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You know, you've earned, you've had plenty of opportunity. You've earned trust and stuff. So,

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yeah, so I caught myself on that one. Another one is that, why do you keep talking to somebody

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who's not listening? I kept wanting to say the same thing to her over and over and over and over.

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And I thought if I said it louder, maybe it would work better. Or if I said it with more emphasis

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or whatever. Over tears. Anything. And I just knelt down, you know, in my bedroom praying. I said,

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God, why can't I get through to her? He goes, why do you keep talking to somebody who's not listening?

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It kind of like, close the mouth, open the ears. And then, you know, almost right after that,

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a follow-in. And why aren't you talking more to the one who is? You know, so I go, yeah, Lord,

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I need to carry these things more to you than I am to her because she's tuned me out already.

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But you haven't. So. That's great. That's great. So we will be putting in the show notes,

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listing of your website and some how to get engaged with you. And we're going to give away

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a couple of copies of each of your books. Thank you. And.

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Listeners, don't you want these books? It's really hard to give away things on

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podcasts I've discovered. But we're trying again. So. But before we close, can you just.

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What's one major thing? I know there are many. What's a major thing that has really helped you

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that you could share each of you? I think the main thing I can summarize it maybe in one word,

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relationships. Guarding your marriage, taking care of your other children,

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finding out who you who are safe people to journey this journey with,

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relationship with God, you know, and keeping relationship with your prodigal.

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You know, things may be rough, you may be battling, but if they always know that they can come home,

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they can return, you know, the doors open to them. So relationship, I think, is the keyword I would

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use. I love that. And I would say that God will be with you no matter what happens. You're not alone.

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I know we said it earlier, but that was what I held on to that even if the outcome wasn't what

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I wanted. And I knew there were no guarantees that he would help me. Deuteronomy 33 27 is just a

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verse I really love. It's the eternal God is your refuge and underneath are the everlasting arms.

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And I encourage parents that his arms will never let you go.

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That's encouraging because the journey can be long and unpredictable and weary. And it certainly has

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been for me. I would throw in my verse that I always hold on to, and that's from Isaiah 60 22,

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when it says, I am the Lord in its time. I will do this swiftly. He's got it. He does it when he

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wants. And his timing, I've learned, is never the same as my time. Never. And so, right. Well,

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I'm just so grateful for you to come. And I want to say to my listeners, this is a resource that

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can really and truly help you. And I would encourage you to check out the website and see

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the website and see what is offered there and see if you can find a group or start a group or just

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joined one of theirs to in order to have some people who are in a similar place and wanting to

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to find solutions. But recognizing the journey is not often quick. It usually takes time. And it's

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really good to have travel companions when you're on a long journey, especially a long

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and difficult journey. So thank you, Tom and Dena. You're my good friends, and I'm so grateful for

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you at so many levels. And so I'm glad to let people know how God has taken the pain and long

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journey that you've experienced and turned it into just beautiful help for a lot of others on their

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own journey, different topics, but the same kind of thing. You're out of control and it's painful.

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And when will it end? And God, what are you doing here? So thank you so much. Thank you for having

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us. We appreciate it so much. Glad to be here. Well, my pleasure. And I think my listeners will

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benefit. And so remember, you need to write some thoughts down so you don't forget. Maybe it's just

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because of my age that I think I'm always going to forget. But the reality is, if I don't write

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something down, it's gone. There's too much else going on. So there's help and hope available to

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you. Please go get it. Look for it. Grab hold and let God help you through the hard parts of this

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journey. God bless you.