Hope and Heartbreak with Addictions—Pam Lanhart (episode 49)

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Well, welcome back. Welcome back to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I hope you had

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an incredible Christmas time just rejoicing in our Savior, time with family, hopefully

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a good time with your prodigal and not a negative time. And that even as you look at a new year,

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there's hope for you. And if you love a prodigal and most people listening to you will discover

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help and hope for this wilderness journey that you're on right here on this podcast

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and especially today. You'll also find some help and hope for your own life journey. This

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isn't just about that prodigal. It's about you and how you keep going. And today I am

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confident that you are going to be so blessed and encouraged even through tears perhaps

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for yourself and your family and your prodigal. And especially if your prodigal struggles

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with addiction of any kind. And I think that our guest is going to be just what you need

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right now. I'm chatting with Pam Lanhart who says, I'm just a mom who's become a warrior.

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Growing up with addictions in her family, she was determined to protect her children

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from that devastation. But it came anyway. Pam's long journey in battle for her son's

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freedom has benefited many families through her book, Praying Our Loved One Home, and

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through her ministry, Thrive Family Recovery Resources. And later when you want to look

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that up and maybe get some help from Pam, that information on her ministry and her book

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will be listed in the show notes of the podcast. As you listen, I encourage you to listen well

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to determine at least one truth that Pam shares will help you in your prodigal wilderness.

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Be sure to write it down so you can look for ways to begin to live it out. So welcome Pam

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Lanhart. I am so grateful for this time with you. Tell us a little about yourself, where

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you live, your family, what you love to do together, because I know you don't like to

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do things by yourself. Well, no, you're right, Judy. I'm an extrovert, most definitely.

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I'm married to my wonderful husband, Paul, and we will have our 41st wedding anniversary

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this summer, which puts me at about 12. I understand that. But we were young, and by

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the grace of God, we've weathered pretty much every storm that a couple could. In fact,

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now I think with Jake's passing, it has been every storm. And yet through the grace of

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God and the determination of really loving each other well, we have made it through every

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single possible hardship and trial. I have four children. Our oldest, Diana, is 37 now

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I think, and she actually has 10 children. And so in this day and age where it's an average

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of two children per family, she has a really unusually large family. And we get to see

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just the fulfillment of the generational legacy of our faith go into her family, which has

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been just an honor to watch. And her children just are amazing. They range from almost 16

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down to little one-year-old twins. And so they're very busy raising their children.

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I was just visiting my daughter, my oldest daughter, who lives in Montana, and she has

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five children. And they are half of my grandchildren. And yeah, it's a very busy life. But what

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joy to be part of it.

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Yeah, and what an honor it is as grandparents to watch her raise little arrows for Christ

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and just really thinking about the verse and Proverbs, training up your children in the

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ways of the Lord. And they definitely have that foundation. And so Diana is just the

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sweetest woman, and she's a writer, also and a professional photographer. So she has this

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real creative bent in her. And my son, Andy, is 25, soon to be 26, is married, lives only

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two miles from us. And then of course, Jake was our prodigal who just passed away. And

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he's with Jesus. I believe that with all my heart. And then we have Nikki, who is 21.

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And our family is an active family. For years, I was a runner. We enjoy mountain biking together.

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And one of the things that happened through Jake's addiction was that we got sort of addicted

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to climbing mountains. So Paul, when Jake was really struggling when he was a teenager,

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he would just scoop him up and take him out to Colorado. And even just in April, Jake

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shared that he felt most at peace and closest to God when he was in the mountains. So my

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husband has a ministry where we take women in recovery or just broken, you know, by the

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trials of life out to the wilderness. So we do backpack camping trips where we, yeah,

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we take men and women out to Colorado and we get them off grid for a week and they climb

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mountains and it's just a great ministry. So we've all summited. Our plan with Jake

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is to bring him up this summer to his favorite mountaintop. And which one is that? Well,

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it's Mount of the Holy Cross in Colorado. He loved the water and it has a beautiful

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stream. And so, yeah, we'll all summit that this summer at some point. And that's where

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he'll rest. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, why don't we get into then a little

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of your journey, starting back with how the addictions started with Jake and the journey

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that you've been on and the positive times and then the fallbacks and tell us a little

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about that. Well, yeah, definitely our life, you know, with him was never dull. And in

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fact, we, you know, both Paul and I are like, wow, things are kind of a little boring now.

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And we've had to adjust to that because he was a kid of extremes from the minute he came

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out of the womb. And I'm sure some of your listeners can relate to this. They're probably

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shaking their head. When we were around Jake, we never doubted we were alive. Because he

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was either, there's a nursery rhyme that says about the little girl with the curl in

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her forehead. And when she was good, she was very, very good. And when she was bad, she

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was horrid. And that was sort of our Jake, you know, he was came out of the womb, oppositional,

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active to the point where we would have to strap the stroller straps through his belt

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loops. So he wouldn't get out of the stroller. If you couldn't find him, all you had to

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do was look up and he was in the top of a tree or a place or climbing up the top of

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our basketball hoop. He didn't ever stop. And he was always, he loved the outdoors.

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He was super active. But recently, what he said to us was he always felt like he had

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this, you know, missing part of him, sort of a hole in his spirit. And even though he

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was baptized when he was 11, and he, you know, really had this relationship with the Lord,

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he just always felt like not good enough. And, you know, maybe that was partially our

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fault. I don't know. I mean, I definitely feel like we tried our hardest and we made

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lots of mistakes raising our kids and don't we all like we all do. And so we don't, you

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know, blame ourselves, but we also when we know better, we do better. And so the good

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news about our story is that through the process of Jake's addiction, we learned to do things

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differently. So he started using when he was 12, he went to a new school and he wanted

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to fit in and he, you know, easily fit in with the kids in the bathroom that were smoking

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pot. And so his addiction started with marijuana. He went to his first treatment when he was

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just 15. And throughout his life, he passed away when he was 24. I think he went through

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about 13 or 14 residential treatments. And you know, one of the things that my son mentioned,

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Andy mentioned that Jake's service was how determined Jake was, you know, he once he

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decided that he wanted to live a different life. He just kept trying. But what happened

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with his addiction is when he was 17 and he was he was in a drug court program. So we

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had two good years of when he was like 16 and 17 of him being mostly supervised by someone

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else. Yeah. And engaged in recovery and doing really well. And when he was a senior in high

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school, he was playing rugby and he broke his femur. And I remember him laying on the

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field that day. And then giving him fentanyl because he had to, you know, they had to like

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a femur break is literally the most painful thing that can ever happen to somebody. They

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say it's similar to falling off a seven story building, like the pain is you're in shock,

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you can't move. And I remember at that moment going, really, God, really, like, is this

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the way this is going to end? And, um, you know, it almost in that moment felt like God

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was starting to prepare me for the fact that Jake was going to live a short life. Um, but

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he did when he was 19, start activating his recovery and he really did want to get well.

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So through, you know, opiates and methamphetamines, he did finally ask for help. And so he we

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sent him out to treatment in Arizona. And through the course of the time he was 19 till

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the time he was 24, you know, our family did a lot of healing work. We did a lot of changing.

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We did a lot of treatment work, which really helped us all heal, heal. But through that

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process, back when he was about 17 or 18, you know, we were told to go to a, go to a

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meeting. That was the only help that was available was to go to a meeting. And that meeting that

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we went to just did not align with our values because it told us, and he's like 16, 17,

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you know, it told us to do this, some sort of this tough love thing, like detach, disconnect,

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kick him out, you know, and we couldn't because he was a minor, but the messaging of this

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particular meeting did not seem to align with our values.

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I would agree with that. It that's not our but my value is either. So,

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yeah. And, and so, you know, we sort of had to wrestle with like, what were our values?

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And how did we want to be in this? And how did we want to show up? And about that time

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we met with a pastor, and he said to us, this profound thing, and I still have it written

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on a piece of paper in my bedroom, and I look at it every day. And he said, Are you going

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to be right for the sake of justice? Or are you going to love for the sake of relationship?

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Because love never fails. And justice was already paid for on the cross.

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Yeah, I agree. Yeah, pretty profound. And what we realized

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is that in through this process, it had become more about winning, or getting him sober,

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or being right, then it had been about just loving right. And now I call that loving well.

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And so I asked myself, during that time, if my son did get sober, would he want to have

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a relationship with me? If my son got sober, would he want to have a relationship with

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the God that I believed in? And if the worst thing happened, and he didn't make it, would

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I have regrets? Would I have lived my life in a way that honored my son and his intrinsic

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value? And that was the catalyst for the changes we made in regards to loving Jake and to loving

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our prodigal, which was just so many people use the story of the prodigal to almost justify

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detachment and disconnection. And I saw the story of the prodigal father in a way that

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was the opposite, which was the father received his son with open arms, that he loved him

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well, and that he forgave him immediately. And so we started a ministry. I started a

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ministry back in 2016. And my whole purpose was to help families to learn the balance

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between allowing their loved one to make their own decisions, not controlling their life,

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not manipulating outcomes, setting boundaries, so that we could walk through this journey

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with unconditional positive regard for our loved one.

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And so, like I said, I call that loving well. And part of that was, where do we get our

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value from? Is our value in Christ, or is our value in outcomes?

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And that is such a, that is profound. We should know that. But we are so desperate for the

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outcome to be the way we want it to be, that it's easy to just focus on that. And that

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doesn't work all the time, a lot of times. And certainly the rejection, the pushing away.

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When people say tough love to me, I say tough is a pretty negative word. It is a rejecting

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word. I said, you need the boundaries and the consequences that are clearly defined,

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but you need them in a loving, accepting, we want relationship with you. And I tell

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people, I say, your first priority is to keep that relationship, because if you lose it,

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you lose the ability to help them and to influence them.

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And those are exactly my words, right? They always say the opposite of addiction is connection.

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And the research and the data supports that family is the deepest connections that are

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imaginable. In fact, I do genogram work with families. And Pete's Cazaro has a great, a

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couple of great YouTube videos on the genograms and the power of family patterns and generational

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family, generational family issues. So like we gain great traits from our parents and

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sometimes we gain some not so great traits from our parents. So when we look at addiction,

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sometimes we can look historically back three and four and five generations and recognize

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that there has been addiction in the family. And so as I was walking through this, part

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of, because of course we have that same family history, I really wanted to try to do my own

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work so that I could heal in an effort to start to break some of those generational

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family patterns that we had. And it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of focus

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on our own stuff, right? That we bring into our family and we, some of it is trauma. Like

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what I realized is my dad, for example, he didn't know how to be a dad because his dad

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died when he was 18 months old and his mom was very controlling. And he had a double

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abandonment because his stepdad left for the grocery store one day when he was about 10

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and never came back. So my dad brought all of this trauma into my family and the way

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that he managed his trauma was to drink. And my mom filled that pattern that his mom had,

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which was to be sort of that caretaker and managing the family. And so while I did not

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suffer from substance use, I definitely brought patterns of control and overreaction and sometimes

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really just manipulating my environment. And what I realized now is that that was what

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I needed to feel safe. And so I had to kind of work through some of that. So my son, when

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he started using sort of experienced that generational pattern of me wanting to feel

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safe and how that manifested in our family was by me controlling, manipulating, sometimes

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yelling, you know, and I had to learn how to break those patterns.

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And what helped you learn to do that?

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Well, you know, of course, first of all, it's our relationship with Jesus, right, Judy,

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I knew that I couldn't do it on my own. And I started asking for more from the Holy Spirit.

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Like the Bible says, like, you don't have it because you don't ask. And so, you know,

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I just would wake up every morning, read my Bible and say, Lord, fill me with what I lack

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because I can't do this on my own. And I would ask for more love. I would ask for an anointing

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of love. And then, you know, I read a couple books and one book that really helped me was

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a book called The Anatomy of Peace. And it's a book I have all of my families read. It's

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not a Christian book, but it's a book about why sometimes we dehumanize people and what

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is behind the dehumanization of others. And sometimes it's rooted in our own insecurities

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and our need to be seen and our need to be valued. And so it gave me some great insights

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into my own lacking. And of course, I believe in therapy. I'm like, I have Jesus and I have

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a therapist. And so I did a lot of trauma work to help me work through my own stuff.

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I also did some healing prayer work. Good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. So I went and did

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some of some intercessory healing prayer. So I sort of attacked it on all, you know,

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fronts, right? So some of it was reading my Bible. I think the word of God is healing.

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The word of God is powerful. Some of it was prayer, intercessory prayer, anointing, having

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people pray over me. Some of it was secular therapeutic interventions. And I really believe

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in all of it.

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And through this, then you were able to love your son well and bring about the security

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of his being sure that he's loved.

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And some of it was learning a new way of communicating, Judy. I did not grow up in a very safe, affirming,

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loving environment. And one of the things I had to learn was how to listen well, how

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to validate my person. You know, when they would say, you know, when Jake would say,

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well, you know, this isn't fair. And my natural instinct would be to say, well, of course,

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it's fair. You just you just don't like, you know, yeah, or you just broke the rules. So

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of course it's fair. And instead, I learned to just say, Wow, I it sounds like it, it

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feels really unfair to you. Can you tell me more about that? Can you talk about that?

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Like, what what do you think would be a way to get through this? How can you resolve this

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conflict? You know, and so instead of jumping in to give advice, or solve a problem, I,

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which is my, you know, unfortunately, God gifted me to be a problem solver. And I'm,

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you know, I'm very skilled at that. And I'm sure it's because I grew up with, you know,

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alcoholism in my family, and I had to figure things out. But when we do that, as a parent,

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it really disables our children from learning how to stretch their own problem solving muscles.

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That's good. That. Yeah, we get we try to step in so much and solve their problems that

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they don't have, aren't forced to love to try that themselves to, to make the effort.

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Some aren't willing. But we can sure make a difference in encouraging them toward their

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own help their own recovery. And you know, it's a it's our we're wired to fix, you know,

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for moms. And Brene Brown had a podcast, a little short clip the other day that I saw

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that was so good. And what she said is that, you know, when we jump in to fix, we're not,

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usually we're not trying to fix the problem as much as we're trying to fix the pain. And

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we don't want our children to feel pain. And yet it's through pain, that we learn how to

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solve our own problems. And it's through pain, that we learn how to change. And so we we

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look at pain in our society as a bad thing, as a negative thing. And yet I know that it's

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been only through my pain, and maybe some natural consequences of my own negative choices

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and decisions that I have actually been motivated to change. And so when we want to create the

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motivation to make changes in our loved one, we have to allow them to feel some of that

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pain. Now, I always caveat with this idea that in this day and age, where we live in

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a society that has a poisoned drug supply, and you can smoke marijuana, and it can be

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laced with fentanyl, and you can use cocaine and die from it, we do have to sort of think

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about reducing harm or, you know, making sure that our person is not in imminent, you know,

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at an imminent risk for death, right? And so I'm also sort of in that camp as a Christian

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that I believe people should carry naloxone. And I believe that, you know, if a person

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has opiate use disorder, maybe they need to be on medications for that. So I'm, I try

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to balance everything with the culture that we live in right now, which is, you know,

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overdose deaths are have doubled in the last year. Suicide has almost doubled in the last

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year, our our children are suffering. And I think that my philosophy is as family members,

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I say first do no harm, we don't want to add to the suffering, because they're probably

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already miserable. That's really, again, a profound thought, don't add to their harm.

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Things are hard. And we can do our part to help them know how to move forward, perhaps.

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And again, they won't always go that way. But they will, if we can keep them in a feeling

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safe within our relationship, then they're much more likely to be able to break free

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from the things that are controlling them. Can you speak just briefly about the role

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of trauma and loss and leading to possible addiction?

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You know, there's a expert called, his name is Gabor Matein, you know, we see a lot of

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work and his philosophy is that, and you know, that every person begins to use because they

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have some pain in their life. And I believe that's true. Now, when we talk about trauma,

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sometimes it will rub parents the wrong way, because they will think, well, my person didn't

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have any trauma, right? Like they weren't raped, they weren't abused, they had a great

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home. And I want to validate you, as a parent, you, I'm sure you did provide a safe environment.

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The trauma can look really different for different people. So trauma could be I was bullied on

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the school playground. Trauma could be the boy sitting next to me touched me inappropriately.

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Trauma can be I had ADHD, and they put me in a special class in school, and I felt like

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I didn't fit in. Trauma could just be my brain doesn't work like everybody else's. And because

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of that, I'm labeled as, you know, unreachable, unteachable learning differences. So when

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we what I like to say, and I asked parents to consider is that we know from an evidentiary

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standpoint that behaviors make sense. So when a person starts to use, it's the solution

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to the problem. So the problem, whether it's trauma or pain, or it could be physical pain,

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but substances are always the solution. So short term, what happens is I feel like I

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don't fit in. And that's my trauma. And when I use all of a sudden, I feel like I'm the

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life of the party. Right. And so, you know, it's hard, I don't want to label. I don't

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want to talk about trauma in a way that sort of puts it on parents and

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No, I agree.

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Yeah, every, every person and in this day and age, you know, because of COVID. You know,

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we are seeing some trauma just in losses. You know, people are losing their family members

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or you know, I've heard my I started my addiction when my grandma died, because I was very close

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to my grandmother, or maybe it's I was in college, and everything shut down and I lost

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my community and I was isolated. And it was just easy for me to smoke pot and my anxiety.

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Right. So there's a broader definition to trauma. Maybe it, you know, for some families,

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it's more of a trauma of neglect, maybe that person didn't feel like they fit in. Or maybe

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they, they're, you know, there was an environment where they felt invalidated, or, you know,

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and again, I say these things not to blame, I, I acknowledge that we probably created

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some trauma for Jay, because we didn't respond in a loving way. When he first started using

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and, and so we worked very hard to sort of rectify that down the road.

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So we're going to do another interview in a while. So because there's more I want you

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to be able to share, but I'd like for you to take a minute now, or a few minutes and

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bring us to the point where Jake was doing well, and you had hope for his future, and

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then you lost him. And tell us as much as you can comfortably do about that.

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Well, and I'll tell you, I call it our Lazarus time. And the reason I use that term is because,

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you know, Lazarus died, and four days he was dead, before they got word to Jesus, and Jesus

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got back to Lazarus and healed him. And so they don't really talk about this in the Bible,

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but from the time Lazarus was healed, he, he did die, ultimately, he died for eternity,

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right. But the time between the time he was healed and the time he died, you know, I call

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Lazarus time, right, this was this gift that his family got, where he had been healed,

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and the family was able to spend time with him until he left for eternity. And we got

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this Lazarus time with Jake. So, you know, it was probably in 2017 that he decided he

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wanted to get well. And it was a struggle for him. He went to treatment, he had great

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months, you know, even nine up to nine months, and then he would have a reoccurrence of use.

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And he would go back in treatment, and then we'd have another great six months or nine

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months. And the last time he relapsed, we had two really great years. And so during

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that time, we had, you know, our family had really been able to sort of interact with

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him and heal. And I think we did not carry resentments. And we were really careful not

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to blame our sons for his addiction, you know. And the other thing we didn't do is we didn't

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push Jesus on him. We knew that, you know, he had some, you know, just biases towards

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the religion. But he definitely embraced God. He worked the 12-step program. I know that

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he was saved. I just think that he felt a lot of shame because of his addiction. So

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we just loved him like Jesus. And we just, you know, we just let go of resentments. We

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let go of outcomes. And even when he had relapses, we were like, okay, you know, it's just a

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blip. What do you want to do? And so he would reactivate recovery. And in April, he had

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a very bad relapse. And just like with, you know, what they say, every relapse was a little

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worse. And he had ended up using heroin and fentanyl. But in April, he wanted to go to

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a wilderness program. And so he went to this wilderness program. And we did the family

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program. And we sat knees to knees with him. And it was the most healing thing you can

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imagine, you know, what sharing, we couldn't even think of resentments, but, you know,

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just sharing our regrets, asking for forgiveness, talking about what we respected about each

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other, you know, what we we had this part of it, which was requests, which were, you

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know, sort of the dreams for the future. And then he went into a sober home and he was

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doing really well. Like he was, he had a job, he was climbing, he had an amazing girlfriend

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that he's had for two and a half years. She was very supportive. In fact, we've looked

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back at messages and there was no shaming, no blaming, nothing. But unfortunately, the

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tentacles of opioid addiction go very, very, very deep. And he had been on Vivitrol, which

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is a medication that prevents overdose. And he had stopped taking it. We're not sure when

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or why. But on on October 22. Well, it was actually on October 21. He had a really good

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friend who was living in the sober house who, who relapsed. And Jake, while did this boy

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Danny, and he went after Danny. And one of the one of the things that has given us so

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much assurance through this is that in Jake's big book, multiple times, he wrote in there

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faith without works is dead. And he underlined it faith without works is dead. And, and I

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think that he wanted to help Danny. He knew Danny was a very ill person and felt like,

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you know, Dick felt like he was Danny's only friend. So he left the safety of the sober

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home and the safety of his program to do what I believe Jesus would have done. And that

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was to help Danny. But in that process, you know, Danny, he had bought a lot of drugs

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and Jake, it was too much temptation for Jake. And on Friday night, they were in Danny's

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apartment and and Danny overdosed. So Jake saved his life from with naloxone. And they

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took Danny to the hospital, they lined up a program for Danny. In the meantime, Jake

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had used. So they were kind of talking that night, him and Maddie about what Jake's plan

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was going to be to reactivate his recovery and to get, you know, back on track. And that

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night, after he went back home, Jake used and Maddie found him dead the next morning.

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Yeah, so, you know, we. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's so hard. It's it's so painful. And I

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know others who have gone through it. And it's it's such a terrible loss. And I'm have

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prayed for you ever since I heard about it and continue to. Why don't you wrap up our

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time just kind of sharing what God has been to you in this these couple of months? Well,

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you know that how we've gotten through this and you know, people ask us, we spoke at the

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funeral. How do we how do you get through something like that? And, you know, of course,

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the foundation of all of it is our faith and the promises of God. And, you know, part of

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our comfort comes from knowing that we had loved Jake well. And I can look through every

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text message for the last five years and there was never an accusation. There was never shame.

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There was never blame. There wasn't anything ever about us and what was important to us.

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It was always about Jake and what he wanted for his life and and trying to support what

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he wanted. And so, you know, asking that question, like if he died, would we have regrets? And

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we can truly say no, that we don't. I mean, little ones, right? Like little ones. Sometimes

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it feels like the universe conspired and everything fell into place for Jake to die. And, you

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know, we don't know why, right? Because people die 100 percent. You guys are going to suffer

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a loss in your life at some point. And you're going to wonder, like, why didn't God stop

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it? Right? Because I don't believe God causes death. God wanted us to live. And the enemy

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comes to kill, steal and destroy. And John 10 says, I came, Jesus came, for us to have

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life in all of its fullness. And so thinking in terms of what sometimes I would say addiction

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stole our son, but we weren't going to give it the two for one special. And we're determined

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that while this is hard and we're filled with grief and every day I go through a box of

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clinics that God's intention is for us to live, to thrive. We will not ever get over

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Jake's death, but we will learn to live with Jake's death and we will continue our ministries

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in honor of our son and his life. And so, you know, I think part of it is just that

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determination that we're not going to let the enemy steal what God intended for us.

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And that is joy and peace and love. And, you know, knowing God's character, I think, has

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really been the primary thing that has helped us through this, that God's intention is always

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good and that Jake truly is in a much better place right now than we are. You know, we're

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sad and we're suffering and we're, you know, grieving deeply, but Jake is climbing mountains,

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you know, he's with Jesus. And I know that can feel right, but like for us...

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But it's true.

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Yeah, it is the truth, right?

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It is. It's the truth. I think I'd like to pray for you right now.

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Thank you.

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And I would invite listeners to just join in and pray for Pam and anyone else, you know,

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who's walking through a very dark time. So, Father, I lift up my sister and her husband

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and the children and even Jake's girlfriend, people who are struggling at this loss because

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there's this big emptiness inside them now. And one day love is no longer tangible for

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them to show that love and to receive it. And I pray that you would continue to provide

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comfort and bring healing. You promised that you can do that. You're the healer. And I

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thank you for Pam's perspective that Jake is with Jesus and he's in a great place. And

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he's now no longer struggling with his addiction. Ten years is a long time. And Father, I just

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pray for the family to be at peace, to allow the grief, to recognize that's part of what

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happens when you lose is that you grieve and to not feel pressured to get over it. But

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I also thank you for the willingness to share with the rest of us this hard journey. And

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I just keep asking that you would strengthen them with your spirit and wrap your loving

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arms around them and give them peace within because you are the God of peace. And I do

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pray that you would also keep letting them touch other lives as they've seen you be so

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faithful to them in this hard journey. So thank you, Father. I pray just ultimate, awesome,

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wonderful blessing even as they go through a time of grieving and experiencing their

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loss. Thank you in Jesus' name. Amen.

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Amen.

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So two things. One, I really would like it probably be a month or two to talk with you

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again and learn a lot more about what you do in your ministry and how that could be

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helpful to our listeners. And second, we're going to give away three of your books to

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listeners. If you go to the show notes, you'll see her book and her resources listed, but

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you see mine and there's one that has my website. And if you click on that, there is on my website

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a place that says contact. And you can contact me and say, I would love to be in the drawing

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for one of Pam's books. So before we sign off, I wanted to tell you that the next week

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I am following up this wonderful conversation with a very personal one. My guest next week

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in celebration of my 50th episode of When You Love a Prodigal podcast will be my son

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Josh. And he's the one responsible for my wilderness journey that I think has benefited

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a lot of people. And it's been a while before he came to a place to say, yes, I would like

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to talk about it. So I'm looking forward to that and I hope my listeners will not only

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come and listen, but tell others as well because Josh has a hard but wonderful story. So I'll

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see you then. And don't forget, did you write down something you heard Pam say that will

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encourage you and help you as you go forward in your journey? And choose at least one of

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those that you're going to seek to apply. So thank you, Lord, for this time. I am grateful

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for Pam and look forward to talking to her again and look forward to being with you who

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are listening next week as we talk to Josh. God bless you.