Hope for the Heart with June Hunt (episode 52)

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Welcome to When You Love a Prodigal.

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover health and hope for your wilderness journey right

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here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast.

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And also help and hope for your own life journey.

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So let me ask you a question.

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Do you need a counselor?

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Someone to listen to your fears and frustrations, who understands what it feels like to struggle

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when you don't know what to do, when you feel like a failure.

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Someone who can give wise and practical and workable input.

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Someone who can give you hope.

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So I'm glad that you're here today.

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Today I'm talking with June Hunt, a native Texan from my hometown of Dallas.

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June is the founder of and CSO of, CSO is Chief Servant Officer of Hope for the Heart.

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After years of teaching and research, June has developed hundreds, well, more than a

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hundred, topical keys for living, providing subjects ranging from anger, do we ever deal

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with that?

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Abuse, addictions, yeah, we know those.

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To apologetics, to parenting, even to suicide.

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And sadly, we know that as well.

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And many other topics.

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June is a top selling author with sales over two million books and is dedicated to presenting

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God's truth for today's problems.

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And here's what she says, I love this.

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Being confident that a changed mind produces a changed heart.

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I think it says something about that in Romans 12 too.

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And a changed heart produces a changed life.

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So as you listen to my conversation here with June, I want you to be thinking what's really

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something I need.

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Take notes of what could help you in your relationship with your prodigal.

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Be sure you jot it down.

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You won't remember later.

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So we'll remind you at the end of that.

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So welcome June Huck.

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What a joy to be with you, Judy.

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Thank you for the privilege of us just having a conversation.

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We're new friends, even though we're both from Dallas, Texas, but we're new friends

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now.

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We are new friends and I'm loving it already.

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So June, I am looking forward to learning from you myself and especially to providing

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real help for our listeners.

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So let's get started.

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First question I have for you, a little background on it.

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Though good parenting doesn't guarantee good choices in our children, nor does bad parenting

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guarantee they'll make bad choices.

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Because I know examples on both sides, but we do know that parenting really matters.

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So what are some good parenting guidelines that will help in rearing children who are

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more likely to make better choices?

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Just to realize, being a parent is a privilege that you have to be a provider, protector initially,

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a teacher, a trainer, a defender, a discipler of children.

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The reason those roles are so important is you're learning the whole time and our need

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is to be dependent on God to give us.

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The Bible is very clear that the focus of wisdom is essential and you don't know it

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all.

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And when you have children, whenever you get those children, wherever and however they're

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in your family, they will be different.

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And therefore having certain goals, having certain priorities will be vital.

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For example, some people would say, I know there's an issue of it's important to have

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boundaries.

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Some people don't know that, but they do.

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And boundaries are really designed, they can be outer boundaries, some do's and don'ts,

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but they're designed to build internal character so that when you're not present, they will

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naturally, because of how you have trained them, they will learn more and more to be

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conformed to the character of Christ.

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And so you're raising a child of whatever age or influencing a son, a daughter, emotionally,

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spiritually, and in a way, what that gives us the emotional security, if there is genuine

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love.

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And there are times, and I know Judy, you can understand this, kids are not their lovable

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fellows that we would wish they would be.

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Our responsibility, however we fit in, if we have influence, it is to literally do what

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is in their best interest.

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Now, love does what's best for the other person.

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Would you not agree?

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Yes, absolutely.

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It wants to.

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The problem is sometimes it won't look loving to your son or daughter.

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But they will interpret it as you're being whatever.

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You don't care about me because you're not letting me do what I want to do.

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But one thing we've got to be aware of is love does what's best in behalf of another

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person.

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So at times you have to say no to a son or daughter so that you can say yes to God.

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There are times when you have to say no to people so that you can say yes to God.

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And this can really free parents to be doing what they at times, well, I know I should

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not permit this.

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And part of the problem is with permissive parenting, often the assumption is I just,

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I need to be buddy.

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I need to be a grand first to my son, to my daughter.

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And I would say, no, you need to be the parent.

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You need to be a parent.

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One thing that I am very concerned about is what is going on in our culture, all kinds

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of things regarding children.

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And oh, they need to choose their own gender.

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That's just one example.

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But at the age of 25 to 28, that's when the brain, the prefrontal cortex, the brain fully

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develops.

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Right.

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So from 25 to 28.

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So at times we have to be on the alert to do what is most loving for a son or a daughter

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or the people around us.

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By the way, sometimes you may be more like the parent of a nephew, a niece.

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And if someone is advocating their role, I happen to have that kind of situation early

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on.

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There are things going on and all I can tell you is it's not that I wasn't their parent.

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I'm thinking of one young man.

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Let's see, he could sit on his dreadlocks.

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His dreadlocks were that long.

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And he was raised by my sister and her husband was an atheist.

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She grew up an atheist.

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And fortunately, I was his favorite relative, but it was so unusual that I'm talking about

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my brother-in-law.

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They allowed him to be on marijuana, 10th grade, and they were concerned he would not

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graduate high school.

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And I remember my sister telling me that, and I'm just listening now, I was not her

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favorite person.

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At the time I was the epitome of everything she did not want to be.

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She wrote that in a doctoral thesis.

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And I never understood why.

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I now understand why.

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But I didn't understand what is her anger toward me or just a resentment.

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And she doesn't, you know, didn't claim to be a Christian.

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But I just remember I, Teddy came to see me for a number of weeks.

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He was going to try to work in the family business, but he couldn't pass the drug test.

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So I said, we had to go home for Christmas.

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I said, Teddy, I've spent three hours doing the research just on marijuana.

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And I've highlighted it on the plane back to Boston.

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Would you be willing to read what I've written, what I've marked?

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And he said, you spent three hours for me?

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I said, yes, Teddy, I love you.

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And he said, I wouldn't do it for anyone else, but I'll do it for you and on the plane.

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And he grabbed my arm.

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He said, you do that for me?

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I said, of course I would.

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And so he got up the marijuana, came back to Dallas and he was painfully employed here.

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But he was hearing things now spiritually he had never heard before.

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In fact, I'll just do a quick fast forward.

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Ten days before my brother-in-law, who was a symphony conductor before he died of a brain

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tumor, I presented the plan of salvation.

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And when I finished and I used it in illustrations, because he had cancer, I said, if I had the

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gift to say, this is the cure and I put it before you, at these hills, we'll say they're

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killed, you have a choice.

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You can take them or not.

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And all I can say to you is when you receive Jesus as a personal Lord and Savior, you had

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to receive him like you would have to receive this gift of that cure.

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That would be a fabulous.

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And I said, I don't have those skills, but I just letting you know.

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And I could give the scriptures.

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I would give these specifics.

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He said at the end, he said, June, I've never heard this before.

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Wow.

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And yet he had been all over the world, literally conducting.

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And I thought, wow.

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And then 10 days later, I had flown back to Boston and had my sister said, June, I just

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want you to know Charles came to know God because of your conversation.

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And I'm a skeptic.

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I don't just assume what people say, but she kept saying, June, don't you understand what

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I'm saying?

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I can say is she said he was telling everybody about this conversation.

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But who would have come in and pretend 10 days?

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So my point is we don't know who's going to be in our lives.

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We don't know the relationships that we will forge, but we need to be open and say, God,

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is there any way you want to use me in the life of this person, that person, because

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sometimes they will not have heard truth to set them free.

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And yet Jesus is the one who says it's truth that sets us free, but it's God's truth.

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And so when you give, love does what's best for the other person.

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And I think that's vital to understand that means you won't give in at times when you're

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being pressured to.

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At times you do have to say no to people so that you can say yes to God's.

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That's beautiful.

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Another thought, I know we were talking earlier and you talked about not knowing people who

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authentically knew God or walked with him or lived like they did.

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And what would be helpful to our listeners to understand what it means to a child, especially

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in your home, if you have an authentic relationship with God?

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Well, the reason I can speak to that is I had a father who said Christianity is a crutch.

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He said, I'm not a Christian.

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I don't have to go by Christian ethics.

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And that was when I was actually confronting him with the women in his life.

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And he had three families going on concurrently and we were the third family.

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And so I was in a church, Judy.

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My mother wanted us to be in church.

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And we didn't live with our father because again, he had another family.

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But I remember being asked at later when I ended up being in a biblical based church.

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And that was stunning.

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It was changed.

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I've never seen anything like it.

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I didn't know.

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I knew nothing about the Bible, even though I was in church.

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And so I was asked, Jen, are you a Christian?

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And I said, yes.

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And I was sincere.

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And I was sincerely wrong at the same time.

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I didn't even know what that meant.

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I never heard of having a relationship with God through Christ.

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And so I remember going to someone after six months.

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Now this new church, I was a teenager.

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I was a sophomore in high school, junior in high school.

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And I went to this Bible teacher.

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I had never heard the Bible.

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I'd been to Sunday school, but I'd never heard the Bible taught.

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Nobody at the church that I went to originally took a Bible.

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And then to realize that this teacher, she would help us.

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She would say, would you turn to so and so?

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Well, I didn't know any of the books in the Bible, so I didn't know how to get around.

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And people would sit by me and they would help me.

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But see, I saw in so many of those young people, I wanted whatever it was they had.

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Because so many of them had, all I can say it was like this wellspring of depth.

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And I was just observing.

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I was very quiet.

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I didn't tell anybody about my family situation.

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And just the kindness.

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And they would say, June, Christianity is not a religion.

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It's a relationship with God and with God through Jesus Christ.

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And I didn't understand.

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I thought, of course, it's a religion.

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Why would they say that?

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But I didn't challenge anybody.

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Then when I began to see the scriptures, I think that was it.

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There was a scripture that said, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

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Lord, I didn't even know that meant master, ruler, owner.

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It's giving him ownership of you.

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It's giving him control of your life.

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But I didn't know that.

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I thought it just meant you believe that Jesus walked on earth.

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And I didn't deny that.

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I wasn't opposing that.

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And so when I began to see as many as received him, Lord Jesus, to them he gave the right

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to become children of God.

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To receive him, what does that mean?

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To receive him, to allow him to literally be our Lord and Savior.

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And we are saved, which will help him to have control of our lives.

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That was just stunning.

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That was the new brand new.

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It was like, but I wanted what these other students had.

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And so I was absorbing, I was absorbing, I was trying to gain wisdom.

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And so I went to this one woman who was this Bible teacher.

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I said, how do I know if I'm a Christian?

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I think I am.

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And she said, June, she said, I can't know your heart, like God knows your heart.

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But if you weren't a Christian, would you be willing to do whatever God would want you

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to do to become a Christian?

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I didn't answer immediately, Judy.

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I was not that.

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That makes sense to me.

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It doesn't make sense to a lot of people.

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But math is equations and I'm highly logical and rational.

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And I thought, what would that mean to receive?

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Because I'm beginning to learn some terms.

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And I remember thinking, I don't know if it would work.

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I saw a bunch of people who walked down an aisle.

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I'd never seen that before.

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And they said that they were giving their lives to Christ.

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But what if it doesn't work?

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And I thought, if it doesn't work, then I guess it doesn't work.

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But what if it would have worked and I would miss what these others have?

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And they use leaders and they use themselves.

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They had what it was that dream.

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And so I was very logical and I wish I had the faith as big as a mustard seed.

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I think I only had about 18 of a mustard seed, meaning I just said, I will try it.

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And I just prayed a very simple prayer and I didn't know how to pray.

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So it was like she led me in a prayer to humble my heart and to receive Jesus as my personal

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Lord and Savior, giving and control of my life.

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And I remember when it was over, I thought, wonder if I'll see something in the sky or

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up the end.

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There wasn't any of that, but I didn't realize I began to change.

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I'm going to be candid.

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I had a hatred for my father because of how he treated my mother.

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And I'm saying that because I know what it's like to even up.

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The truth is I had a plan at age 14.

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I had a friend whose father was with the FBI.

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And I said, what would happen if a boy kills his father?

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And I gave some scenario and he said he would be in the juvenile detention center.

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And then in 2018, he would be released because he's juvenile.

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Got that four years.

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I can do that.

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So I went to mother.

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Wow, I said, Bob, I figured out how to solve the problem, said our family.

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I know what I know what to do and I can do this.

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And she said, Oh, really, honey?

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And I said, now listen carefully, I've got a plan to kill dad.

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And I want you to know, though, for years, I'll be out of that juvenile detention center.

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And I can do anything for four years.

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I promise you, and obviously hesitated.

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She said, honey, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but that really won't be necessary.

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And I thought, shoot, I thought, shoot the person, but shoot.

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I had the plan and it doesn't surprise me if I hear of a son or a daughter who kills

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or attempts to kill a parent.

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Because if you're being loyal, see, this was me, I was being loyal to my mother.

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I hated how dad treated my mom.

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So I can do this.

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I obviously needed to change heart and I didn't tell anyone.

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That was one conversation I had with my mother.

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Didn't tell anybody about it for years.

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The truth is, I couldn't see that my dad would ever change.

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And that was part of it is, don't ever change.

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And then we'll still have this pain.

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And I'll just say that I watched my mother.

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Oh my goodness, I watched mother change because she got people around her who knew the word

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of God and knew God personally.

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And they taught her.

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It was beautiful to see.

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I was watching change take place.

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And then finally, after becoming a Christian the following year, I didn't know what to

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do with the word forgive because that didn't seem right, Judy.

302
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How can it be right to just let somebody off the hook?

303
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That can't be right.

304
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I couldn't take the scriptures out of the Bible.

305
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And the Bible said, bear with each other and forgive whatever grievance you have against

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one another.

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Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

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And so I finally, I can tell you, I didn't grasp the concept of forgiveness until actually

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00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,080
much later, but I learned we're not letting a person just off the hook.

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We're letting, we're taking them off of our emotional hook, that bitterness, that hatred,

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that anger toward that person who has wounded us, who's hurt us.

312
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,440
But, Jen, could you just expand on that a little?

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Because I think forgiveness is a huge part of surviving with a prodigal, both to forgive

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that person who's made your life crazy and painful and broken your heart, but also asking

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forgiveness of them as well for the things you might have done wrong.

316
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Could you talk about that a little?

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See, now you've gone from preaching to middling.

318
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Isn't that the phrase?

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I remember I was 20 something, I was a youth director and I had clearly a changed life

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to Christ.

321
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And so now I've become the junior high director at this huge church and I had 600 in the junior

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high division along and then later became the college and career director.

323
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I just was learning so much.

324
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But this one area of forgiveness, again, it didn't seem rational.

325
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I told you I'm logical and so someone asked a question, a large group, how many of you

326
00:22:52,400 --> 00:23:01,040
feel you are the exception to forgiving and that your situation is different so therefore

327
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,040
you can't forgive?

328
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,400
Out of this group of 100 and some odd people, there were four of us who raised our hands.

329
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And a man who was a doctor came up to me and said, Jen, I saw that you raised your hand.

330
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He said, is it possible that you want to consider a, he actually said, is there anything that

331
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,920
you need to forgive your father for?

332
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And I thought, I never thought of that.

333
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,720
And he said, what percentage do you think he was wrong and that you were wrong?

334
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And I said, I was perhaps 2% wrong.

335
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He's 98% wrong.

336
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I didn't consider myself a judgemental person.

337
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I had facts.

338
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I had all kinds of things that I could look to.

339
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And so he said, aren't you responsible for your 2%?

340
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So I went to him and I said, man, please speak to you.

341
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:08,120
He looked up with his glasses toward the end of his nose and he had his newspaper out and

342
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:09,120
he just looked at me.

343
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I said, I realize I'd have been an ungrateful daughter.

344
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I've never thanked you for a roof over my head, for books for school, for food on the table.

345
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And I've come to ask, would you be willing to forgive me?

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That's beautiful.

347
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,840
And he just kept looking and finally he said something that would not be characteristic

348
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,840
of him.

349
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He said, the pleasure was all mine.

350
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,160
We went right back to the newspaper.

351
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No doubt conversation.

352
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And I doubted.

353
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But I knew I did what was right.

354
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And do you know, I didn't even recognize this until much, much later.

355
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,400
My relationship changed with him from that point on.

356
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:02,000
And I now knew, by the way, I had told parents as a youth director, the most difficult thing

357
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:08,640
for a parent is an ungrateful child, an ungrateful daughter, son.

358
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:15,680
And I realized now I've been ungrateful because I hadn't been verbalizing appreciation.

359
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,520
I was just focusing.

360
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:26,960
I literally had a black filter on a photograph and photography, put a lens on a camera and

361
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,960
that lens is called a black filter.

362
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,160
So a day thing becomes nights.

363
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,800
In this case, I didn't want to see good in him because I thought, why isn't somebody

364
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,840
showing him how wrong he is?

365
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,720
Nobody ever confronts him about anything because he was a president of a company and he had

366
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:44,720
only yes people.

367
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,920
And so I was trying to be his convictor without saying anything.

368
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,320
I knew not to talk because if I did, he would take it out on mother.

369
00:25:54,320 --> 00:26:05,080
And so my point is I finally also saw scripture pray for those who persecute you.

370
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,560
I thought, oh, so I have to do something.

371
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,560
Okay.

372
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,440
So for the first time I began to pray that he would have changed life to Christ.

373
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:21,440
And I thought, oh, with me being critical of him, nobody wants to change because of

374
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,680
a person who's critical toward you.

375
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,240
You don't change for them.

376
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,840
And even if you do change, you don't tell them.

377
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,360
So Judy, it was, I was the one who had to change.

378
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:38,440
And then I began to look what is most loving.

379
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,920
And see, this was, I thought this can't be real in the Bible.

380
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,920
Love your enemies.

381
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,680
I thought that nobody can do that.

382
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,800
I just thought, well, that must be some high ideal.

383
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:55,440
But see, I didn't understand, I got my love seeks the highest good of another person.

384
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,440
Yes.

385
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,720
And so that's the highest frame of love.

386
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:06,200
And so Judy, I had to learn, okay, what could be good for me to do for my dad?

387
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,800
And I remember specifically, okay, I've got to do, I want to do something concrete.

388
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:20,400
He's always misplacing this red address book kind of plastic thing, but it was fat, all

389
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,920
these numbers.

390
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,720
And you could call people at any hour, I'm sure.

391
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,000
And so the point is, I remember locating it and at the dinner table, he said, where's

392
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,000
my address book?

393
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,480
He would bark this out periodically.

394
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,720
Where's my address book?

395
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520
And I said, dad, I know where it is.

396
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,520
I'll go get it.

397
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:47,880
And so I slipped out of my chair, took it from his bedroom and just laid it to his side

398
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,480
at the dinner table and didn't say anything.

399
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,520
He was so shocked at my attitude.

400
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,440
I really wanted him to have a changed life.

401
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,040
And so I had to change and God changed me.

402
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,680
I didn't change me, I promise you.

403
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,240
And I just am so thankful that I could read those scriptures.

404
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:16,520
Love your enemies, meaning do what is in his best interest, whatever would benefit him

405
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,760
the most.

406
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:24,820
And so I would look for things that he would like instead of me fighting him.

407
00:28:24,820 --> 00:28:28,880
So as a teenager, I'm the one who had to change.

408
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:36,560
And even as a young adult, but all I can say is in retrospect, as I looked at the overall

409
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:44,680
picture, it was after I changed that he began to change toward me and did not have a critical

410
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,400
spirit toward me.

411
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:55,160
That's I think such a beautiful picture of what God calls us all to.

412
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:02,960
Yes, our prodigals hurt us and there are things that we will have to forgive them for, but

413
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:09,440
there are almost certainly things that the way we've spoken to them, the way we've acted,

414
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:15,900
when we set boundaries, the way we dishonor them in talking about it, those are things

415
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:19,040
we have to ask forgiveness for.

416
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:25,360
And I know for me, I had to with my son on a number of occasions and with my daughters

417
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,780
who were mostly good, I still had to ask forgiveness sometime.

418
00:29:29,780 --> 00:29:36,880
And so as hard as it is for us to forgive, it's often harder to ask forgiveness.

419
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,000
I think one thing is can be also a misunderstanding about forgiveness.

420
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,240
I had written a book called How to Forgive When You Don't Feel Like It, because I didn't

421
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,720
feel like it.

422
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:55,240
And the person who did a review of it, first thing I ever got on it, a man said, I'm surprised

423
00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,280
at the content of your book, he said, I just thought it was just going to be a super sentimental

424
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,280
thing.

425
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,280
And he said, I'm so stunned.

426
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:11,920
He said, in fact, because of your conclusion about, not conclusion, but your assessment

427
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:18,400
of what forgiveness is and what reconciliation is and the difference, and he said, this is

428
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:25,920
the first time I've been able to forgive someone who I've had no relationship with for years

429
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,400
and years.

430
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:33,440
And so what I'd state is forgiveness is not the same thing as reconciliation.

431
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,500
That's why a lot of people will not forgive.

432
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:37,680
They think it's shame.

433
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,960
And forgiveness requires no relationship.

434
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:47,240
In other words, forgiveness is directed one way, whereas reconciliation is reciprocal,

435
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:55,280
occurring two ways in that forgiveness is a free gift to the one who has broken trust,

436
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,920
whereas reconciliation is a restored relationship based on restored.

437
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,740
So at times we are called to forgive.

438
00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:10,440
And that means we take them off of your emotional hook and you put that person onto God's hook

439
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,880
because he says it is mine to avenge.

440
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,080
I will repay.

441
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:25,120
So we just say, Lord, I give this, whoever is the difficult one in our lives, I just

442
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:34,320
release my anger to you by my heart and the area that I can blame.

443
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,520
And I just release all that to you.

444
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:47,120
And I pray that when you're what you're going to do with this person in my life, but I thank

445
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:56,680
you that I can trust you with me to do what is right because you're leading me to take

446
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:04,840
my offender off of my emotional hook instead of being judging and just continually blaming

447
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:05,840
and accusing.

448
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,300
I know that this is not right.

449
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:15,720
And so I choose to let you just take me to the right heart.

450
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:22,740
And I pray one day my dad will have a changed life through Christ.

451
00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:25,080
And then I leave it to them.

452
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,760
And that was huge.

453
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:34,440
So at times when we think that, oh, because many people think to have reconciliation would

454
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:40,240
mean that then you've forgiven, no, that can be a stumbling block for people, but it's

455
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,240
a misunderstanding.

456
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:49,160
At times we will not have a restored relationship, but still we are told bear with each other

457
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,320
and forgive whatever grievance we have against one another.

458
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,040
Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

459
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:03,200
So what we see is forgiveness is unconditional, regardless of a lack of repentance, whereas

460
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,820
reconciliation is conditional based on repentance.

461
00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:15,760
So I know that one of the things that you talk about besides that very excellent explanation

462
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:22,280
of what forgiveness is that when it's someone you love, you have a heart desire to also

463
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,160
see reconciliation and restoration.

464
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,320
Do you have some thoughts on how that can happen?

465
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:36,560
I was getting ready to teach on the topic of prodigal people.

466
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:44,720
I thought about very candidly, this sister who was for some reason had a great difficulty

467
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:45,720
with me.

468
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,940
I didn't know why, but I, when I looked for and made all the difference in the world was

469
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:54,320
look for common ground.

470
00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:02,680
To start out, where can be that which would be meaningful, what would be meaningful to

471
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,680
this other person?

472
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:11,520
Now what we're talking about is all the way from colors.

473
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,120
Do you know what the favorite color is for the people in your life?

474
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,200
I knew my sister's favorite color was blue.

475
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,600
She had a parrot.

476
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:23,600
There's all kinds of things.

477
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,320
She became the net bastard to, to, uh, Austria from the United States.

478
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,240
She was excellent at what she did.

479
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:35,320
And, but she had two children at the time when she went ages nine at six.

480
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:41,320
I was back in Dallas after her swearing in ceremony in DC.

481
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:48,360
I'm on the hunt for three kinds of items, funny Americana and spiritual inspiration.

482
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,400
And I'm looking for American looking gifts because they're going to be in a foreign country.

483
00:34:53,400 --> 00:35:00,440
And so every three, every third week I would send to the nine year old that became the

484
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,360
10 year old, the 11 year old, 12 year old, because they're in the best or typically for

485
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,880
four years.

486
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,400
And so I would send a funny gift because I thought, what can I do?

487
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,880
What can I do to love my sister?

488
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,680
Well, she doesn't respond to me at all.

489
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,140
And so I thought that maybe what she loves her children.

490
00:35:23,140 --> 00:35:24,600
So that's what I'll do.

491
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,440
I'll reach out to them.

492
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:34,420
And I've all I can tell you is after four years, I got a letter from her and I just

493
00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:40,520
surfaced it a few months ago and I thought, did I keep that letter?

494
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,400
And I put, I looked on her file under her name and sure enough, thank you for the kindness

495
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,440
you've extended to my kids over these past difficult years.

496
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,920
These gifts you sent them have helped them stay connected to the family in spite of the

497
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,920
miles.

498
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,000
The personal interest you've shown have been very meaningful to them.

499
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,880
Our own relationship has blossomed in recent years due to your tending.

500
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,360
I appreciate this more than I can say.

501
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:15,680
And all I can tell you is I kept looking over and over.

502
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,320
What would my sister hold?

503
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,680
What could she hold?

504
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,680
And that's what I looked at.

505
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,800
Look at what that other person loves.

506
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:32,040
And then, and so sure enough, but then later she had me come, she taught at Harvard and

507
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:39,400
so she, so then she asked me to come speak at her conference of 200 people for women,

508
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,240
religion and politics.

509
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:46,240
And she said, she said, you can invite two or three fundamentalists like you.

510
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:51,960
We had fabulous talks and then I learned what the stumbling block was.

511
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,800
Later I learned.

512
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,720
She said, Jen, I can't be a Christian like you.

513
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:57,720
And I said, what are you saying?

514
00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:59,920
She said, I don't believe the Bible.

515
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,720
What do you not believe about the Bible?

516
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,280
I don't believe wives to your husbands.

517
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,240
And then she said, look what dad did to mother and look what mother did.

518
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:11,240
She just submitted.

519
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:18,600
I thought, oh, my soul, so then all I did was show, I said, in the Bible, you're right.

520
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,040
It does say wives submit to your husbands.

521
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,640
But I said, there's a literary law because you're an author.

522
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,240
There's a literary law.

523
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:27,360
Context is king.

524
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:33,800
It matters what the paragraph before, what the point of the book is.

525
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,360
And she said, yes, I agree.

526
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,400
So look at the context.

527
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:45,760
The words just before wives submit to your husbands is submit one to another out of reverence

528
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,760
for Christ.

529
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,740
So the context is mutual submission.

530
00:37:50,740 --> 00:37:53,120
And yes, it does say wives submit to your husband.

531
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:59,040
And then several verses later, it says husbands love your wives as Christ left the church

532
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,920
and gave himself up for her.

533
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,760
So he has to be willing to die for her, not her die at his hands.

534
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,800
And she said, oh, my God, are you serious?

535
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,400
The Bible really says that.

536
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,360
I said, it was phenomenal.

537
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,520
So that's what I went and spoke on at Carpenter because I knew that a lot of people would

538
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,760
have no understanding of taking that one scripture out of its context.

539
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:31,960
But see, when you more and more are investing your life in what the other person loves,

540
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,160
values, looks common ground, and it makes a huge difference.

541
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,680
Do you know what the favorite food is, the favorite whatever things that you can do that

542
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,280
we all can do to find common ground?

543
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:54,040
That way we earn the right to enter into a dialogue that can be incredibly meaningful

544
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,880
and have a relationship because my relationship with my sister has totally changed now.

545
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,960
Oh, June, I love that.

546
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:10,880
One of the things God said to me when I actually had grown into a being truly in love with

547
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:17,880
this boy he had sent us that, Lord, can't he ever love me back?

548
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,880
And to him to love me was a betrayal of his birth mom.

549
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,920
And so I understood that.

550
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:30,280
But still, and the Lord said, Judy, you're missing something here.

551
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,800
Love means there are no conditions.

552
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,440
It means you love no matter what.

553
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,920
And that's you look for the ways to show your love, but even if it ever comes back.

554
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:49,000
And so when you have a person in your life who's really, again, broken your heart, it's

555
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,480
the kind of thing that you're talking about, the forgiveness, the looking for the ways

556
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,340
that you can connect and reconnect if necessary to reconcile with people.

557
00:39:59,340 --> 00:40:02,200
So those are just beautiful thoughts.

558
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,440
And people can change.

559
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,440
Oh, yes.

560
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:05,440
People do change.

561
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,160
We've got to be so aware.

562
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:17,160
It may take a person to literally, whether it's a son or daughter, whoever's been wayward,

563
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:22,720
whoever's the product, you don't know what later can happen.

564
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:30,160
I'm thinking about now even about a prodigal dad who was a I just was just saying for funeral.

565
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,760
And this man was horrible to his children.

566
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,440
He started out, though, as a pastor.

567
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,680
And then he just went way.

568
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:45,880
It was awful the way he until the grown children had a real struggle forgiving.

569
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:46,920
And yet did.

570
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:53,400
And yet it was when he got Alzheimer's, all of a sudden, he's saying, I've been a and

571
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,400
he used some bad language.

572
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,360
I've been this.

573
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,360
And he said, it's been awful.

574
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:00,360
And then he began to cry.

575
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,680
He said, I've been a terrible dad.

576
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,280
And all of a sudden, it melted the hearts of his children.

577
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,960
And so sometimes a person has to become like a child.

578
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,080
The Bible says you don't have like a child to receive Jesus.

579
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,400
You have to be willingly receptive of the Lord Jesus Christ.

580
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,960
And that may be toward the end of their lives.

581
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,520
But this man became a child.

582
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:34,920
And all of a sudden, the whole relationship with a repent drew true repentance took place.

583
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,080
So sometimes it's at the end of their lives.

584
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:44,440
But we need to allow people a time to change in our hearts.

585
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:45,440
That's really true.

586
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,200
June, I think we're going to need to wrap up here.

587
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:56,880
We are so grateful for you giving us stories that demonstrate not just telling us how to

588
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:03,880
do things, but telling the stories to show us the ways to live and love anyone in our

589
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,560
lives and especially our wandering loved ones.

590
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:14,400
Whether that loved one is a child or a parent, as you've talked about a lot.

591
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:21,040
It's a privilege to be with you because and you have great wisdom to share.

592
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,840
Those who are listening, continue to listen for the wisdom that Judy will share because

593
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,680
we all need wise people in our lives.

594
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,780
Thank you very much.

595
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:38,000
To my listeners, remember I asked you to jot down something you learned.

596
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:46,080
Maybe it was about loving someone, asking forgiveness, giving forgiveness, seeking reconciliation.

597
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,440
How do you connect with a person where there's estrangement?

598
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,440
What can you do?

599
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:58,480
What's a specific thing that you can apply in your life with your prodigal?

600
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:04,960
So I hope you'll find a very tangible way to see a difference in your life.

601
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:11,840
You can read more about June and her books and the things she teaches in the show notes

602
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,680
and you can find out some resources.

603
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,840
And we are giving away three of her books.

604
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:25,320
The books we're going to make available are first, How to Forgive When You Don't Feel

605
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,000
Like It, just like what she was talking about.

606
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,640
Bonding with your teen through boundaries.

607
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,480
Now we often think boundaries with teens are going to just create antagonism, but she's

608
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,220
saying bonding with them through it.

609
00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:44,760
And then this one can be true for most of us sometimes.

610
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,160
The Answer to Anger.

611
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:53,600
So if you would like to receive one of these three books, I invite you to take a moment

612
00:43:53,600 --> 00:44:01,340
to click on in the show notes where it says my website, it has judydouglass.com and there

613
00:44:01,340 --> 00:44:08,480
you will see a tab connect and you go there, give us your information and say, book from

614
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,200
June.

615
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,400
And we will put your name in the drawing for those three books.

616
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,720
So I hope maybe you'll win one.

617
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:24,040
And I want you to also take a minute to rate the podcast and if you're on Apple, you can

618
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,280
actually write a review that just helps other people discover it.

619
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:34,680
And I want you to know that next week we're going to begin a series of five sessions on

620
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:35,800
the hope.

621
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,480
When you love a product goal, one of your great needs is hope.

622
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,000
And so join us next week.

623
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,160
I promise you will find some help to find hope.

624
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,080
So again, thank you so much June.

625
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,200
And we're just grateful for your stories.

626
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,940
I love your vulnerability and your willingness to share the hard things that God called you

627
00:44:57,940 --> 00:45:00,040
to when you finally met him.

628
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:05,600
I'm deeply humbled that I get to be a part of your wonderful listeners.

629
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:17,240
So thank you and God bless you June and God bless each of you who are listening.