House of Honor-Margaret Philbrick, episode 150

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right

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here when you love a prodigal and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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My special guest today, Margaret Philbrick, will take us on an intriguing journey through

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an unusual approach to loving our prodigals.

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I think you're going to really enjoy her and what she's going to share.

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I first met Margaret as we were both members of the Redbud Riders Guild, and I still remember

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my amazement at her first novel that I read called A Minor, a novel of love, music, and

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memory.

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I have no musical ability, but her story fascinated me.

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And today we are talking about art, another topic I know a little about, but Margaret

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does, and she will take us on an introduction to Henry Nowan's book, The Return of the

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Prodigal Son, which is a reflection on Rembrandt's painting of the prodigal son.

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And I know both of those, so that part is familiar.

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But then she's going to take us on an adventure and some intrigue in Italy.

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And I've been there, but not all the places she talks about.

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I want you to hear what my endorsement for her book is.

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Her book is launching today.

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We're very excited about this, and she gave me the privilege of writing an endorsement

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for her book.

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It's entitled House of Honor, the Heist of Caravaggio's Nativity, and I just am so

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excited for her.

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So here is my endorsement.

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I've rarely read a long book in one sitting, but I did with Margaret Pilbric's House of

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Honor.

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My memories of Italy were refreshed with vivid descriptions and fascinating characters.

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I mean, the world of art and meeting Caravaggio captivated me.

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Intriguing tales of Cossinotra and the Vatican were also keeping me reading.

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And most of all, the heart of this prodigal mama was both broken and hopeful.

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A wonderful book.

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Thank you, Julie.

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So glad to have been able to do that.

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So Margaret, let's start at the beginning, kind of where did this idea come from?

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Sure.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Such a delight on a day of launching after nine years of working on this book to sit

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down with an old friend like you and talk about this.

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The idea came from a trip in 2015 when we were walking between the Charlie Fountain

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and Gatton of Bono.

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And my youngest son, Nathaniel, said, Mama, you have to come into this church, which is

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San Luigi de Francesi.

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And he said, there are three Caravaggios in here.

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And my mother was an oil painter.

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I grew up with a lot of art speak and art life.

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And so I said, let's go.

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And when we went in, there was a priest from the Vatican giving out lecture in Italian about

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paintings, and he kept putting a coin in the metal box to turn on a single light to illuminate

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partially these paintings.

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And this is such a low tech approach to Caravaggio.

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And I mean, we had to stay there quite a while to actually even see the paintings.

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And I was very moved, kind of taken apart.

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I think this happens with Caravaggios art, where people connect to it so deeply in the

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heart for a lot of reasons that they have a feeling of being kind of unbound and laid

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out by it.

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And then they sort of sit with it and see what is God doing right now?

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What is happening with me?

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And that set me on a journey.

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I did not intend to write the book when I saw the paintings at all.

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I just wanted to understand who the artist was and what was going on with his art and

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why was it affecting me like that.

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So I went on a journey of very significant research for three years about his art and

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his life.

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And then that revealed to me that one of his paintings of the Nativity was taken in 1969.

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It was cut out of the frame with a box cutter in Palermo, Italy, and it has never been recovered.

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And so this question of who did it?

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Why would they do that?

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Why would you take a masterpiece like that?

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It's such a rash, just awful, just corrupt way.

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And then now it's lost to us.

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I just couldn't stand it.

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It's its own product of story, really the painting is.

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And we're all still praying for it to be revealed and to be returned.

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So that just really got me.

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I was like, I have to write this now.

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I have all the research.

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I have the motivation for the story, which is what do you think happened to this painting

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and why did somebody take it?

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And so that's what set me on the path.

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Oh, wow.

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Well, here's a thought.

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Maybe your book will be the impetus, the way that this is found, because some people will

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read and maybe come forward with what they know.

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I would love it.

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I hope the book touches the people who know what happened to it in that kind of way that

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they would realize that the world needs the painting more than they need the painting

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hidden under a bed or an enatic somewhere.

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I do think the painting is definitely still in existence.

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I really do.

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So, yeah, I think that would be great.

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My husband has a theory that Steven Zalane, who created the Ripley series, which is just

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run on Netflix, he thinks that they're going to do, you know, the further series after

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it, and that indeed it is going to be a part of it, this heist, and that they're going

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to tell their story of Thomas Ripley stealing this painting.

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He's business's idea.

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I mean, I, who knows, but it's pretty funny.

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Yeah.

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I think that's what makes people talking.

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That's interesting.

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That will be interesting.

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So where does Caravaggio come into the things that you've also said about Rembrandt's painting

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and Henry Nowan's book on the return of the prodigal?

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How does this connect?

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Well, Caravaggio himself was such a prodigal.

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He lost almost all of his male relatives to the Black Plague, and his mother sent him

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away from Bergamo, from Northern Italy, to be basically protected and apprentice in a

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studio when he was very young, hoping that he would not die and he would not get it.

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And he did survive.

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He spent a lot of time painting salad in a bowl, which he did not like.

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And so he went on his own journey.

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He did not go back home.

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He very, at a very young age, 17, 18, went to Rome and set out to make a name for himself

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in art.

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And that was a short journey.

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He only lived into his early thirties, but he was just bound and determined to carve

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and cut his path apart from his home and his homeland in art.

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And so he did a lot of terrible things along the way.

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He's known as the bad boy of the Renaissance art worlds for many good reasons.

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And as a result, he himself really is a prodigal, and the ending of his life and the ending

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of the story is so tragic.

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And I don't want to say too much because I don't want to give a whole book away.

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Right.

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I don't want you to.

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Yes, right.

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But because I love his art so much and I was so impacted by his own story, and I do say

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in the book, we're all prodigals, you know, all of us are.

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You are.

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And I say that often.

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Yes.

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And so I developed such a heart to pray for the soul of Caravaggio because his art is

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still reaching and touching just masses of people and including myself.

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So just praying for God's mercy for him.

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And then Rembrandt himself also had this crazy life where he became famous young and he kind

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of lived the wild, helly and life, and then just started losing everything.

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He lost everything.

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He lost all his family, his children died.

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He became, he was bankrupt.

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I mean, only one child outlived him by his second wife.

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So he has a very similar story, the wild giving yourself over to wild and lascivious living.

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And unlike Caravaggio, he lived long enough at the end of his life to paint this painting

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of the prodigal son.

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And now in had the same experience with this painting, similar, I should say, to what I

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was experiencing in the Count of Raleigh Chapel, where you're sort of being taken apart by an

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image and you're wondering what God is doing with it.

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And then so now in thread about it, thought about it, changed his life completely over

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the painting.

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And that's why we have this book, The Return of the Prodigal Son.

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I mean, now, and that was the first theological text that I read as research.

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Once I moved beyond the arts, then I really had to get into the mafia, the Vatican, the

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theology behind this art and why people were painting it and what they were hoping to communicate

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by it.

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And then how was now ennued by it.

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And I picked his book first because of the image itself, because I love now one's writing

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as well as, yeah, I just love him.

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I mean, how can you not love him?

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Right?

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He's so Christ like.

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He's so Christ like the choices that he made to what to do with his life in the latter

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part was just beautiful.

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Yeah.

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And so Rembrandt in doing and creating this painting in many ways was doing the same thing.

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And I think that now and saw that in the painting that this is a person who is depicting this

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return of the lost son with so much illumination and power and then theological imports that

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he had to take it apart and he had to then pray through it and see what God had in revealing

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it to him.

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So I love this painting and this text because for Caravaggio, it's kind of like an unfinished

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story.

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Only the Lord knows what's going to ultimately, eternally happen to him.

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Whereas with now and he gave us this painting right at the end of his life.

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And so we have a sense of where his own heart was.

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And we just don't have that with Caravaggio.

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So his last paintings are so sad and dark and the martyrdom of St. Ursula is on display

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in the National Gallery in London right now.

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And there's just a lot of conversation right now about how his art in such a short time

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evolved between 18 and his early 30s.

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It's just a very dramatic change in the color and the lively nature of the naturalism of

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what he was depicting.

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Rembrandt and Caravaggio had a place to really come for transformation.

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They both came from a hard background and bad things.

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And God, well, not with Caravaggio.

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But with Rembrandt restored his relationship with God, which is at least evident in that

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painting, which is a powerful painting.

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But now and on the other hand, may have been struggling in his relationship with God and

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walking, but he was not a prodigal in the traditional sense.

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Not at all.

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I mean, he tells you in the book he had this just privileged Christian life.

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You know, he was the good boy.

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He was the altar boy.

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I mean, he had all the great teaching.

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He was prayerful.

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He knew he wanted to be a priest from a very young age.

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I mean, he was in the face as a foundation.

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And so then, you know, he lives in this world of academia for quite some time later and

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starts being kind of like thrown about and thinking, you know, what is my foundation

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that I'm treading on?

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And the painting, when he was sitting in his friend's office and he saw the poster,

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he started thinking, you know, who am I?

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Who am I in this painting?

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And you know, that that's really a question everyone is always asking, right?

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That maybe it's not art, but you know, who am I and what am I doing here?

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And I think that most people, I think get there.

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Yes, I hope so.

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Yeah, I hope so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So you you quoted and I will repeat that we are all prodigals and and according to

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now and trying to find our way home.

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How do you see that these three amazing people now and Caravaggio and Rembrandt, how they

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experience that reality and their own prodigalness or not?

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I think, you know, with now and I would say based on the book, it's a pretty heady exploration,

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which, you know, he takes to the Lord and starts thinking through, am I the younger

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son?

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Am I the elder son?

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Am I the and the bystander?

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And he decides, I'm actually all of those things.

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And then he really comes into a bigger revelation of I'm called to be the father, you know,

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I am.

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And so he has that a holistic experience of the painting where he sees in it all these

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things is kind of like, you know, God is I am, he's all of it.

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I am everything.

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And I can be everything for you.

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And he recognizes, but I can't be the father.

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I'm not the father.

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And the Lord is saying to him, well, yeah, you actually have within yourself the ability

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to surrender to that degree that I am everything.

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And so he is really treading that line, which is, you know, kind of like the ultimate or

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penultimate line before we're in his presence, right?

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Whereas Caravaggio, you know, he is trying to become famous in the eyes of the world.

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I mean, he's got the swagger, he's got the brashness, he's got the sword and the golden

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chain and he's going to show everyone that that was very evident in your book.

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So look forward to it when you read it.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, I mean, he's like, I'm, I'm, I'm doing Instagram.

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I'm going to be someone and I'm going to let you know it.

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And so he kind of is treading the opposite line, which is I want to have all eyes on

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me.

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I want all popes to come and genuflect at my work.

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And so they're kind of these opposing diameters, right?

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For perspectives on prodigal nature, where one is, you know, now one is reconciled the

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fact that I have to move forward in who I am as God's, you know, creation.

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And he is saying, you have to move toward me because I am showing you God's creation.

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So that's part of the engagement, I think, of these, this comparison is how far opposed

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these two lines are.

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And then Rembrandt is artistically, you know, like I said before, really at, at, I think

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he died, he was 63 or 60, yeah, 65.

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You know, he's at the end of his life, basically bankrupt.

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And he knows that he has just who, who he has been made to be as an artist.

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And he has to give that over to the Lord.

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And now in tells us in the painting that even the hands of the father are representatives

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of one male hands and then a female hands so that that father is embodying all of the

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masculine and all of the feminine in the way he's being that loves persona for everyone.

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And I've never even noticed that in the painting.

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Well, I have never noticed that either.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Isn't that neat?

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I know.

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And so it's the all encompassing love of God that he felt now and felt that Rembrandt

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really captured, which to him showed he has come quite a long way in his journey of prodigal

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loss, right?

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Oh, wow.

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That's that's amazing.

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Yeah.

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So do you think, well, I think you've just explained the, the whole we are all prodigals

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in a sense and they get, they represent three kind of levels of that or places in life where

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they're going to come from a really, really struggling in a hard place and a very prodigal

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life and one of making the discoveries and then one of at a place where they can really

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see the what role God plays in their lives.

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And that's a hopeful thing because people who love a prodigal, as you know, and as I

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know, it's a place where often hope disappears because there's nothing that's giving us the

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evidence that something could change, that this life will be restored or redeemed.

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So these pictures are beautiful to say, okay, there's often a path.

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So here's a question I have for you.

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How have you experienced as you've been writing this and reading and living with prodigal?

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How have you experienced your own?

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We are all prodigals.

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That's such a good question.

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I think so I have this challenge and I think a lot of writers do, Judy, I know I'm sure

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you do too.

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Here we are on a podcast and we're talking about this and I would rather not be talking

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about it.

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I would rather just release this book into the world and let it just live its own entire

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life and never touch it, never Instagram about it, not talk about it.

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And so because of the culture that we're in, we kind of become this technological slave.

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There's like an enslavement that if you want anyone to care about this, you darn well better

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be talking about it and putting it out there.

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And so I think that and I have this, I've never had an iPhone.

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I've written about that.

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Why I've never had one, never wanted one, which messed us up today because we couldn't

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do this on a phone.

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Sorry, because I was annoying.

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But I do think that there is a sort of like a technological bankruptcy that is contributing

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to my own sort of prodigal emptiness because it's so quick and easy and candy to replace

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what would be the spiritual time commuting with God with just making a text or having

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a post on Instagram or scrolling.

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And so it's just like, I feel like it's just bankrupting our souls in with such a depth

295
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and my own that I am constantly fighting against it.

296
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And so that's tiring, right?

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It's not restorative.

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It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, like the Lord can, you know, come to us in the quiet

299
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and we'll listen for his little quiet, small voice speaking.

300
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We get filled up.

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Well, the opposite of that is the clamor.

302
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And I feel like this technological authorship over life today is very bankrupting of the

303
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soul.

304
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I'm fighting against technological prodigal no sonnously as this book is launching.

305
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,240
That's why it's very germane right now, I would say.

306
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That's so true.

307
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And I've just been with my grandchildren, two sets of them.

308
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I still have another set of them.

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I've been with two of them.

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And to see them with their screens in front of them and their parents in both cases are

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pretty strict on it.

312
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And so they're not like a lot of kids that just that's where they spend their life.

313
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But it's it's very, that's what they think is going to make them happy.

314
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And so it doesn't give them the hunger that often is what causes you to first see your

315
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prodigalness, but also to see and have hope for a different life.

316
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:24,880
And so I think what you've just said is a good thing for us to think about that our

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culture today is contributing to a desire or a pursuit of what is not really going to

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satisfy.

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00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,440
So you end up with like a corporate prodigal nature.

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Yes.

321
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,040
And that that's kind of shocking, right?

322
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,840
I mean, we've never really lived in a space where we are all prodigals because we all

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00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,560
walk with our heads down and just are staring at a phone and no one else.

324
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I mean, that is that's just a contributor.

325
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,680
So let me ask this question.

326
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:05,800
How does this prodigal reality that we've been looking at play into the story of your

327
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,720
book without giving too much away?

328
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:17,520
So I wanted this to be a tale of two sons from two different, very different families.

329
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,880
And they're really their relatives kind of are involved as well.

330
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:28,760
But it's really about this boy who at the time is boy, Oroxio Bordoni in the north.

331
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:34,200
And he lives in the same area of Italy where Caravaggio grew up.

332
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,120
And just people, some people know the last name of Caravaggio.

333
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That's the name of the town that he lived in.

334
00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:44,760
So his name is Michelangelo de Marisi, but then is de Caravaggio because that's where

335
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,760
he lived.

336
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So that's how you know him.

337
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That's good.

338
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,960
That's kind of fun to know.

339
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:56,480
And then Michelogiato is from Sicily, and he is the heir apparent to a very powerful

340
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mafia family.

341
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And he has his father has all the best intentions for kind of keeping him pure and out of the

342
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:11,720
slime of the family's entanglements with that, which is illicit and awful.

343
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,640
So he's protected him to keep him sort of a good boy that ultimately managed the family

344
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affairs in an honorable manner.

345
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So his father has controlled his whole life.

346
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And now he's come of age to really become the heir apparent and live into that role.

347
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:39,240
And so these two sons basically are taking on their adult manhood in contrasting ways.

348
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:45,760
Aratio asks his father in the beginning of the book for his inheritance, and he refuses

349
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to take over the company, which has made his family very wealthy.

350
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He presents the fact that his dad has spent his whole life doing this and wants nothing

351
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to do with it.

352
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,360
And Niccolo respects his father greatly.

353
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He's suspect of really what all is he involved in, but he also knows he's doing a lot of

354
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,600
good in Palermo and for Sicily.

355
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:13,760
And so the two of them set off on these prodigal life journeys within the context of their

356
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role and their appropriate role in their own families.

357
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And they meet these two stories of these men, developing men meet in Rome in a church when

358
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Aratio is in there with his brother Vincenzo, who is a priest in the Vatican, and he sees

359
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this man who he thinks he knows from his father's company.

360
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He thinks that Niccolo worked there and he recognizes him.

361
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:46,960
And it's the Feast of St. Joseph, and he watches this very handsome Sicilian go up to the altar

362
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,600
at the feast and pick up a lemon off of the altar and throw it up in the air in this rather

363
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,000
brash technique that most people wouldn't do in a church.

364
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,200
And he finds that hilarious because Aratio is this iconic last and really kind of admires

365
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,400
the fact that this unknown person who's Nico would actually do that.

366
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:13,440
And so they are prodigals in the sense of the way they are relating to their families,

367
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one departing, one desiring to honor the family, and then how those stories entwine and ultimately

368
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:27,160
entangle the two of them as well as the family's enterprises.

369
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,960
And it's a fascinating story.

370
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If you if you will, and I hope you will read this book, you will not only be fascinated

371
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by the stories of people and the development of the characters, but just to understand

372
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some of the realities of the past and where they were at least a few decades ago when

373
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the story takes place.

374
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And it's it's just a fabulous story.

375
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I thank you.

376
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:05,840
I grateful that you wrote it and that I got to read it for them.

377
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,640
Let me ask you what's your hoped for outcome for this book other than that, you know, you

378
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:18,720
sell a lot of books and become a famous author and all of that.

379
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,480
I'll tell you what, this is really true.

380
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,160
I am of the age now.

381
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:29,720
And as a writer, I'm kind of over the sort of success quest, you know, the Caravaggio

382
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,080
I'm going to be famous thing.

383
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,760
And that is definitely not what it's about.

384
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,760
And I learned this in part from Charlie Peacock and his wife.

385
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,480
I was on a call with them, a zoom call with a lit group that I'm with and they just had

386
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,560
a book come out this year in March.

387
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,480
And they were asked that question.

388
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:54,080
And they said, you know, we they're older than me, but they said, we are no longer praying

389
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,080
for success.

390
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,080
We're praying for fruitfulness.

391
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,200
And yeah, and I love that.

392
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:07,320
I think that with this book, to have people, I say in the end in the behind the book section,

393
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:13,000
and in front of great art to enter into a museum to let leave their phones behind and

394
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,320
go and stand in the presence of a real living piece of art and and really ponder it and

395
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,920
take it into their own hearts and let it impact them in a way that reveals more of who they

396
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,240
are as they relate to God.

397
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:34,040
That would certainly be a huge goal is to kind of get people more into the real world

398
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:42,280
and away from scrolling and believe that, you know, God gives us arts because it changes

399
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,280
the world.

400
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:44,280
I mean, and it endures.

401
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,640
We're talking about Caravaggio 450 years later.

402
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,560
I mean, these are things that are living.

403
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,520
People talk about him all the time now.

404
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:51,520
I know.

405
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:57,000
Having read your book, I notice that he's yes, very much in discussion now.

406
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,320
Yeah, he's hot right now.

407
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,080
And he's kind of experiencing a bit of resurgence thanks to Stephen's land and Ripley.

408
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,720
I mean, and a lot of other things.

409
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,960
I mean, the painting and their dread being authenticated as a Caravaggio.

410
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,480
There's a lot of things happening right now.

411
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,760
But I say it.

412
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,160
So I think that that's a big idea.

413
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:18,520
A big fruitfulness is just a return to art, whatever the art form is as a way of having

414
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,800
our souls impacted in the goodness of God.

415
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:27,520
And then I would say, certainly understanding the torment of someone like Caravaggio and

416
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:34,920
so many artists and really just valuing what they gave to us despite who they were.

417
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,360
And then thereby connecting with people's brokenness and just recognizing that so much

418
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:48,200
beauty is coming to us out of so much deep brokenness and that thereby valuing people

419
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,320
as create creature creators much more than otherwise we, you know, that we would and

420
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,360
just scrolling away to scroll away and being so distant and separated from the humanity

421
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,480
of what it is to create art and who those artists are.

422
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:08,280
I mean, that that kind of separation is akin to separation from God to me.

423
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,920
And I don't want people to live like that.

424
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,960
I want them to enter in, right, to that goodness.

425
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:13,960
Yeah.

426
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:22,440
Well, I was going to say the story of Caravaggio is that his paintings had the message.

427
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:30,280
His paintings showed the realities and the possibilities in a relationship with God.

428
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,640
And yet he could paint it, but he couldn't find it.

429
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,640
Yeah.

430
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:42,160
He, you know, he always, he was, he was the bystanders on the right hand side of Rembrandt's

431
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,840
painting.

432
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,920
He depicted himself as such in his own art.

433
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:53,200
So in the taking of the price painting, he's on the farthest outside, you know, right,

434
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:59,240
right edge, but he's holding the lantern so that you, because of the light he's shining

435
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,320
on the scene, can see the scene that he has painted better.

436
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:09,840
So he is in a way depicting himself as the suffering servant like the David Goliath painting.

437
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,720
That's a self portrait of him hanging there with just the guts stripping out of his neck.

438
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,120
And also as the light bearer.

439
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,520
And I think that he was really thinking about these things.

440
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,920
You know, these are, these are, this is who we are.

441
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:28,480
And because he was so dedicated to this just extreme naturalism in his depiction of humanity,

442
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,000
he's doing it with himself.

443
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,400
He's sitting there and saying, I am this, I am Goliath, but I'm also bringing this light

444
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,600
to the scene of the taking of the Christ.

445
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,400
And thereby he's saying, isn't that just all of us?

446
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,600
Isn't that who we are?

447
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,800
That's yeah, so good.

448
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,120
Margaret, thank you.

449
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Thank you for chatting with me.

450
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,360
Thank you for writing this book, doing the years of research that it took.

451
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,160
I, I'm just really thrilled and I'm praying that God will use it in a lot of ways, but

452
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:08,720
I want to especially hope that it speaks to the audience that listens frequently to this

453
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:16,800
podcast and gives them a different perspective and helps them open their minds to other ways

454
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:24,040
that God will speak to them as well as to their prodigals and that it will even help

455
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:34,840
make a bridge to them that there can be return and restoration even as, as Rembrandt portrays.

456
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:42,160
And so thank you for that and I want you to, I'm going to give away a couple of copies

457
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,960
of your book and we'll have a drawing.

458
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,440
And so for my listeners, you know, you go to the show notes and sign up if you want to

459
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,840
be in the drawing.

460
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:58,680
And I also would really encourage you to take some time to think about what Margaret has

461
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,840
shared with us and see if God has a message for you.

462
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:13,400
It will give you help as you seek desire, pray for hope for a restoration and a change

463
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:24,920
for your prodigal, but also to really help you to be the open arms of the Father, welcoming

464
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,640
them back because sometimes that's not what happens.

465
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,960
And so I would pray that that would be what's happening.

466
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,160
I will also give you some other references in the show notes.

467
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,920
So don't forget that.

468
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:47,960
And let me just say, remember, we always look for an application, a personal application.

469
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,600
So don't disappear from listening to this without stopping and saying, God, what are

470
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:59,560
you saying to me through what I've just heard, which is different than we ever talk about

471
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,480
in as far as the approach, but not in the message.

472
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,000
So so thank you, Father, for that.

473
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:13,240
And for Margaret and I pray for all of the listeners that they will hear from you what

474
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,440
you want to say to them through this.

475
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,920
So thank you, Lord.

476
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:23,160
I thank you for Judy and I thank you for her heart to serve all these people and us and

477
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,160
me today.

478
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,520
And I just ask for your favor that you would bring all those just that are so beloved.

479
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,320
And you're a perfect time to submit.

480
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320
Perfect way.

481
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,480
Thank you, Lord.

482
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,680
Your book is available anywhere.

483
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,360
Yeah, there's this wonderful tool now called bookshop.org.

484
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,520
So for people who don't like to buy books on Amazon, you can just go to bookshop.org and

485
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,040
then your local bookstore will get this book for you.

486
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,400
So you can be supporting your local store if they don't have it in stock, you can still

487
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,680
get it through them and you don't have to be a servant to Amazon if you don't want to

488
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,680
be.

489
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,640
But yeah, leave a review.

490
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,640
Everything is driven by reviews.

491
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:09,000
I mean, it's just amazing how many things now just technologically are impacted by review.

492
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,120
So even if it's one sentence, just write one sentence.

493
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,400
It can be good or bad.

494
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,120
The research shows that it doesn't matter if it's good or bad.

495
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,000
It just matters that the book is reviewed.

496
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,000
Yeah.

497
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,720
So just please leave a review and Judy for your giveaway books, I will definitely sign

498
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:26,640
the books for the people who get them.

499
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,040
So just let me know.

500
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,040
Okay.

501
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,040
Well, great.

502
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,040
Thanks a lot.

503
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,040
God bless you.

504
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,040
God bless you guys.

505
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:57,040
Thank you.