Interview with Dana Russo - A Companion in Grief, episode 67

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Welcome back to When You Love a Prodigal.

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If you love a prodigal,

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you can discover, help,

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and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal,

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and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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Today, we have a very special guest.

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Dana Russo is a longtime friend of mine.

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We go way back.

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Way back.

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Way back.

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She has made beautiful music for large and small audiences over decades,

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and I've been so blessed by her beautiful voice that you have given her.

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She has turned some loss and grief in her own life into a powerful,

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compassionate ministry to others,

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to people like you and me who love a prodigal.

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Dana, in her growing,

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in her efforts to serve people who are really experiencing grief and loss,

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founded with her husband,

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with him or you all just are now working together?

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We're now working together.

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Okay. A ministry called Hope Rises,

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and we all know how much hope matters to us.

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She calls herself a companion in grief,

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and I love that.

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She's got credentials,

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she's a social worker,

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a degree and certifications in death and grief care,

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and four decades of walking along hurting hearts gives her a wealth of experience.

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You can read even more detail about her license as in her background,

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and her family, and the show notes.

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But I want us to hear from her rather than my talking so much.

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She loves that she has two grown children,

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and they're married,

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wonderful spouses, that's always nice and not always true.

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A two-year-old grandbaby and another one on the way,

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and you know that's my big heart right now is grandchildren.

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Welcome, Dana.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm glad you could come.

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I'm grateful to be here. Thank you.

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Let's just get right into this and tell us about Hope Rises.

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That's a great sounding name.

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Where did that come from and what is it?

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Well, it came from an image in my mind that I've actually seen personally,

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but a blackened forest that wildfires had gone through.

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Despite all probability,

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there were these little seedlings of green coming up.

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I've always sensed that that's a picture of people who are walking in grief.

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That image is a big part of why the name Hope Rises,

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that despite everything, hope can come out of just the most horrid circumstances.

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We provide services for those who are experiencing grief or those who feel alone,

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stuck, wounded, or just immobilized in life.

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We can experience grief with death losses or loss of a job,

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a relationship, or when a loved one makes choices that breaks our hearts.

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Many non-death losses are tied to losing our hoped for future.

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That sounds very familiar.

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That sounds great.

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Well, you said you can help people when they feel sad,

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but it's more than that.

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If grief is not sadness, what is it?

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I think our culture has equated grief and sadness.

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It definitely includes sadness,

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but it's so much more.

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Grief is all the conflicting feelings that we experience when there's been

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an end of or change in a familiar pattern or behavior.

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Basically, anytime we experience a significant loss or disruption,

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or change, we might experience grief.

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It's not just about death loss,

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it's more tied to love.

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How does grief present itself for the most part?

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Well, presents itself in a wide variety of ways.

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In thinking about those with prodigal children,

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Dr. Pauline Boss coined a term a few years ago called ambiguous loss.

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Some people find it helpful to know that there's a name for what they're experiencing.

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One type of this ambiguous loss is where the person is physically absent,

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but psychologically present,

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such as say a kidnapping or disappearance,

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a divorce, perhaps even incarceration.

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Physically absent, but they have a psychological presence for you.

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A second type of ambiguous loss is when the person is physically present,

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but there's a psychological absence.

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This is basically when someone we love becomes someone we barely recognize.

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This might be due to mental illness,

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Alzheimer's, traumatic brain injuries,

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or the effects of substance abuse.

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This person looks like your son or daughter,

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but they seem to be a different person altogether.

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Physically present, but psychologically,

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who they were is gone.

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In this situation, you are actually grieving someone who's still alive.

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Ultimately, ambiguous loss is relational loss.

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It's an ongoing type of loss.

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It doesn't seem to have an end.

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Ultimately, it's a loss of control.

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There's no easy fix or solution.

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Oh, yeah, that. Control.

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Well, I know many people with prodigals

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suffer that exact thing that you're talking about often because their kids grow up,

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or a spouse, or a family member, or sibling.

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Then they either on their own make very different choices.

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They really reject what they've known,

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or they get married to someone who has a different view,

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who pulls them away.

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Really, I can't tell you how many stories I hear of people who,

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I don't know where they are,

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they won't talk to us anymore.

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It's their own choice or it's the influence of someone else.

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It's devastating.

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Some it's years and they've got no word.

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They have grandchildren that they have never seen.

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Those are very painful losses.

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Yeah. Because in our American culture,

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we've identified loss as just death loss,

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we don't recognize that we're actually in grief.

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What are some symptoms that you are in grief?

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You might not even know it.

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Right. In this situation,

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you feel like, well, it's a hopeless situation.

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Of course, I'm sad, or of course,

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I'm frustrated, or of course, I'm tired.

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But grief is a normal response to an abnormal loss.

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When this happens,

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it can affect us in the five domains of life.

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It can sometimes impact us physically.

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It may impact our sleep,

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positive or negative,

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impact our appetite.

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Many people talk about feeling so lethargic.

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They just have no energy,

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extreme fatigue, or their body just feels super heavy.

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It can impact you physically.

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Of course, emotionally,

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you're experiencing an underlying sadness,

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or sometimes it comes out in some people as

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a restlessness or an irritation.

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C.S. Lewis said after the loss of his beloved wife,

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he said, I did not know that grief felt so much like fear.

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A lot of people experience fear in grief.

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Many might feel anger,

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especially in these situations.

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I would think anger would come out sometimes.

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Yes. Anger in grief is a protest emotion.

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It's saying, this isn't right,

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this can't be happening.

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I refuse to accept this.

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Yes. You're protesting.

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But in grief, down underneath all of that anger,

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anger is crying out,

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I want back what I lost.

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There's a lot emotionally that's happening inside a person.

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Grief can impact us cognitively.

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You may find yourself misplacing things more often,

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or forgetting appointments,

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or struggling to stay focused in a meeting.

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Are there other reasons for those things?

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Well, yes. I was about to say,

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some of us, it's our age that brings that on.

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But yeah, just a lack of being able to focus or

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feel like you're walking through

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a deep fog where you just can't make sense of things.

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Everything's fuzzy.

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They've done a lot of studies on

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the brain of those who are in bereavement.

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It shows that the brain is

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literally not firing on all cylinders.

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It's literally breaking down.

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That can impact you cognitively, socially.

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Grief causes us to perhaps want to pull away,

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or disengage, or withdraw,

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even from spouses or those most close to you.

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It can feel very lonely.

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Then the fifth domain is,

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it might impact you spiritually.

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It may find it hard to pray or read the Bible,

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or it may impact

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the relationship you thought you had with God.

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Now you've got some big questions for him that

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he's just not quite who you thought he was.

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That he can allow this to happen.

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Yes.

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Yeah. It can impact that you lose

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vision for people who are in ministry.

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Some people, I just don't have

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the vision that I once had.

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Part of that is grief.

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Yeah. I can think of it being just a,

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it just stops you.

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It's like I can't go on because this loss is so great.

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I'm in such pain that we lose the hope,

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which is why Hope Rises is

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such a good name for what you're doing.

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But we lose hope that there's a future.

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We can't picture it without this person,

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or this person as they were,

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or as we hoped they would be.

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We find that more of

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our families are dealing with

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prodigals who are actually past their teens.

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They may have started then,

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but the real pain comes when they're young adults,

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and you have really no control.

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But you think that's not the way we raise them.

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So that's also a grief that we feel that's like a failure,

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that we must have failed for that to have happened.

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That's also just very grief inducing.

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Absolutely.

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To feel like we failed in

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our most important job raising a human being.

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Yeah. It's a loss.

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Again, that lost of your hoped for future.

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It's just a constant reminder that, wow,

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you can do everything the best you know how,

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and your son or daughter still has

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a very independent life and mind.

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What do we do with this grief?

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How do we keep going?

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How do we handle it or find a way forward?

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Well, one, we need to recognize that grief is not our enemy.

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You just mentioned that everything slows down,

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it's suspended, you're in a different time,

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almost in a time warp sometimes.

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All those symptoms that I described,

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if you think about each one of those domains of life,

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all those symptoms are trying

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desperately to get us to slow down.

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One of the things we can do is recognize that

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grief is trying to share something with us,

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it's trying to get our attention,

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it's not trying to harm us.

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Denying or distracting yourself from grief only delays and

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complicates any integration of this new reality.

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As the saying goes,

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if nothing changes, nothing changes.

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We need to come into this right relationship

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with our sadness and our sorrow and our grief.

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How do you do that?

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Well, most people don't want a relationship with grief.

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I'll just start there.

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True.

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We'd rather go get a root canal than saddle up to grief.

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It's like, no, that's more pain.

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We think it's more pain.

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But the reality is it's just exposing our pain.

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In America, we're so consumed with this excessive positivity.

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The mind said that you should never be sad,

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or you should always look on the bright side.

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For those who are spiritually inclined,

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well, God always has a reason.

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We just feel like we're not allowed to have sorrow.

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It's toxic. This mentality is toxic.

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We need to remember that pain is trying to get our attention.

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Now, for those who maybe cut themselves,

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it's the pain that draws our attention to the fact that,

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oh, I need something.

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I probably need stitches.

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I could bleed to death. Pain is important.

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Also recognize that grief and mourning are different.

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In our culture, we use them interchangeably, I think.

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But grief is all those internal feelings

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that we have on the inside.

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Mourning is what I call grief gone public.

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It's getting those emotions from the inside outside.

263
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,280
Grief is needing movement.

264
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,200
And so there's a few things that we can do.

265
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,280
I'll list a couple right now, and then we

266
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,360
can share a couple later.

267
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,240
But first, we need to name it.

268
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,480
We need to call it out.

269
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:48,920
Give it a name.

270
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,760
This is my grief.

271
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,360
And admit that you've lost something really precious

272
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,120
to you, whether it was someone who died or a broken

273
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,960
relationship, loss of dreams.

274
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:01,720
We need to name all those.

275
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,280
List them out.

276
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,600
And once you begin to do that, you realize, oh, maybe

277
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,000
that's part of what I've been carrying around all this time.

278
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,360
A word of caution here, we each have an internal grief meter

279
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,920
that subconsciously scales our pain to someone else's.

280
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,920
Well, at least my son's still living.

281
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,960
At least my daughter's still in my house.

282
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,280
People do that all the time.

283
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:28,960
Yeah.

284
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,600
And so we do that, I guess, trying to just recognize

285
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,040
it could be worse.

286
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,200
However, the danger in shared grief

287
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,800
is in those comparing of losses, it's

288
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,280
not giving your own heart permission to grieve.

289
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,760
Your loss is your loss.

290
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,440
It's turned your world upside down.

291
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,000
And so it's important to think through what has ended

292
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,040
or changed or what was I hoping for that hasn't happened.

293
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,640
Some people have a hard time just kind

294
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,520
of writing down a list, but answering

295
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,920
some of those questions, I assure you

296
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:15,720
the arrow of grief always points to what's most important to us.

297
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:16,880
So we need to name them.

298
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,800
Can you explain that?

299
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,640
Well, because grief is tied to love.

300
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,560
If we have loved and attached, when that thing is taken away,

301
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,680
we will probably experience grief.

302
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,720
And so if you can't get in your mind, what is grief?

303
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:35,960
I'm not going to name my grief.

304
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,360
Well, that's a silly little thing.

305
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,200
They're not going to be home this Christmas

306
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,560
and it's going to change things.

307
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,480
No, that's a grief.

308
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,880
That is a loss.

309
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,280
And it's loss because you love them

310
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,360
and you want them in your home or you

311
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,160
want a family that feels whole or whatever

312
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,720
the case may be for you.

313
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,800
And so grief is surfacing so many symptoms to tell us

314
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,040
things are not normal.

315
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,960
And many people try to keep those emotions under check.

316
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,280
And so secondly, what we need to do is feel those emotions.

317
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,320
Again, people in our positive culture

318
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,640
don't want to feel sad.

319
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,720
We don't want to feel stuck.

320
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,000
We don't want to feel these depressive feelings.

321
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,800
But it's only right that you feel sorrowful when

322
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,840
your loved one is making these decisions.

323
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:37,560
It is a human response of love that is not being given back

324
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,160
in the same way that you are longing for it.

325
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,960
And so many people in our culture, we numb it.

326
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:51,680
We either get busy, we veg out on Netflix or binging, gaming,

327
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,960
some turn to alcohol, food, some turn to alcohol, substance

328
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,160
abuse, anything to numb the pain.

329
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,800
But Brene Brown wisely cautions us,

330
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,240
when we numb the dark, we also numb the light.

331
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,760
And so our emotions are not the problem.

332
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,120
We fear sometimes that if we give into our feelings,

333
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,000
that we'll get stuck.

334
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,280
But the opposite is actually true.

335
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,520
The more you push grief away, the more it wants to cling.

336
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,680
It's like lint on black slacks.

337
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,160
It just kind of wants to cling.

338
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,200
And it wants to be acknowledged.

339
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,880
And it wants to be felt, a couple of things.

340
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,520
And naming our losses engages our mind, which is good.

341
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,120
Feeling our grief engages our emotions.

342
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,520
But it's not enough to actually just feel the emotions.

343
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,880
Third, we need to express them.

344
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,160
Yes, there's a friend whose husband died of COVID,

345
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,960
who's expressing her grief well with beautiful poetry

346
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,080
that she's sharing with the world.

347
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,200
They're learning, everyone else is.

348
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,920
But for her, it's how she's handling this.

349
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,800
It's still been very, very hard for her.

350
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,120
But she's doing that to express it.

351
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:20,520
So it's hard, though.

352
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,080
And you're right, as far as our culture.

353
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,360
I've been in almost every part of the world.

354
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:33,280
And when they have grief, it's not quiet.

355
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,200
They talk about it, but they mourn.

356
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,280
When you look in biblical times, and they would wail,

357
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,920
and everything, because it's a great loss.

358
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,560
And we, as you've said, don't tend

359
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,280
to do that in our more Western world.

360
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,680
We push it down and not acknowledge it.

361
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,920
So that's hard.

362
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,760
It is.

363
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,600
And like your friend, being able to write and express, again,

364
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,360
grief needs movement.

365
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:10,240
And so if she can write and express herself that way,

366
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,880
many people find it helpful to be physically active.

367
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:22,400
The arts, writing, or painting, or dancing, or anything,

368
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,320
to kind of just get the, I heard of a place

369
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,160
that I'm so anxious to visit.

370
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,760
I read about it right as COVID hit a couple of years ago.

371
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,160
But a local place here that is a boxing club.

372
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,680
And I'm not normally the type that

373
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,080
would be drawn to a boxing club.

374
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,760
But I think once a month, they did it a special evening

375
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,400
with a licensed counselor who came in to talk about grief.

376
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,200
And so sometimes we just want to pound it out.

377
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,280
So there's all kinds of ways of, hopefully,

378
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,080
expressing our grief.

379
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,400
Cry.

380
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,360
I encourage some of, I've actually

381
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,280
encouraged some of my clients to take a drive,

382
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,240
go to a park where you're going to be, feel safe,

383
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,480
but feel alone, and just scream at the top of your lungs.

384
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,320
Keening.

385
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,960
You're talking about that wailing.

386
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,120
That's called keening.

387
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:20,320
It's like this.

388
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:26,400
It's a sound and an expression that's too deep for words.

389
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,480
And we need to let that out.

390
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,880
We need to get that out often.

391
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,600
And with this ongoing loss, it's not just a one and done.

392
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:38,240
Oh, yeah.

393
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,520
Oh, now I'm fine.

394
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,280
Yeah.

395
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,080
Oh, no.

396
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,680
It'll make you feel better for a short time.

397
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,080
But there needs to be something that you can actively

398
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,240
move your grief.

399
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,440
Find a grief therapist, somebody who can actually

400
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,560
help you process.

401
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:55,440
You don't need to be.

402
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,520
Are there very many people trained to do that?

403
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,960
Well, that is a good question.

404
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,560
In my understanding and experience,

405
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,960
not many that are specialized in grief.

406
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,920
My husband is a licensed mental health counselor.

407
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,000
And even in his schooling, they were not required at all

408
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,880
to take any courses on grief.

409
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,080
Not one.

410
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,760
And I find in surprising it is, isn't it?

411
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:26,440
Yes.

412
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,000
Because for mental health, they have to be generalist.

413
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,400
So they just touch on so many things.

414
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,600
And yet, when people with this type of grief go to a counselor,

415
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,240
they may be treated like they have depression

416
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,800
or treated with just, well, think more positively about it.

417
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,200
Now, granted, that has its place.

418
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:54,320
But often, grief needs to be expressed before it

419
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,640
can move to a healthier realm.

420
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,480
And if you don't have that outlet to just be honest

421
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,840
and not feel like someone's needing to fix you right away,

422
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,880
it can be harmful.

423
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,640
Well, because often, the person who

424
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,760
would be willing to be there with you and come alongside

425
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,240
and listen grows weary of it.

426
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,320
And so then they're like, OK, time to move on.

427
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,280
And maybe you're not ready.

428
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,120
Yeah, exactly.

429
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,280
And even with death losses and other types of losses,

430
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,040
I have some people that have come to me,

431
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,240
and that's been their thing.

432
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,760
They say, I feel like I'm wearing out my friends,

433
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,560
which is just heartbreaking.

434
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,920
And granted, whether that's real or perceived,

435
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,720
the effect is the same.

436
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:52,360
They don't feel free to speak and speak ongoing about it.

437
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,240
And so I think with ongoing loss,

438
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,280
like these ambiguous losses, people, again,

439
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,040
our culture is just not well-trained.

440
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,760
Our churches are not well-trained.

441
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,520
Our ministries are not well-trained

442
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,360
to know how to walk long term with those carrying

443
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,920
these weights throughout their life.

444
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,320
And so yeah, to process grief, we need to name it, feel it,

445
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,160
express it.

446
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,280
Of course, this is a flyby, right?

447
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,360
This is not all conclusive.

448
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,080
Yes, I know that.

449
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,720
Listeners, you know that too now.

450
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,640
Yeah.

451
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,040
These are just ways to get you started.

452
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,800
So name it, feel it, express it.

453
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,520
And then lastly, we need to ponder it.

454
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,320
OK.

455
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,880
I'm a fan of pondering.

456
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,560
But I'm not sure I see that.

457
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,520
So can you explain what you mean?

458
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,960
Yeah.

459
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,800
Well, as we were talking about before,

460
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,200
that pain is trying to get our attention.

461
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,000
This deep kind of pain we're talking about

462
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,800
and the deep kind of suffering that we're

463
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,040
talking about parents living with,

464
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,440
it has a way of bringing to the surface some

465
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,640
of the deepest existential questions in life,

466
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,480
questions on the meaning of life.

467
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,760
Why am I even here?

468
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,800
If I can't raise a kid who whatever, what good am I?

469
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,440
It shuffles our priorities.

470
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,120
Yes, that's true.

471
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:23,320
It would shuffle them.

472
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,680
Grief always shuffles the priorities.

473
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,000
And it exposes what we value for good or for ill.

474
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,280
And so there's a lot of adjusting going on.

475
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,760
And many times we have questions for God in times of crisis.

476
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,480
The God we thought we knew didn't come through the way

477
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,240
we thought he would.

478
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,360
Or should.

479
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:48,840
Or should.

480
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Exactly.

481
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,280
And so even though questions, you feel like, well,

482
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,600
what good does it do to ask these questions of God?

483
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,120
He does what he wants to do.

484
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:01,960
I've heard a lot of people kind of dismiss

485
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,920
this whole concept of pondering.

486
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,000
But I guess I would invite you and suggest

487
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,680
that asking those questions takes you on a different path

488
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,680
than not asking.

489
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,400
Open that up just a little more.

490
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,560
By not asking, it's if you think of any relationship.

491
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,520
If you don't ask, some clarification

492
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,360
in an argument or a disagreement or whatever,

493
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,960
you can only go so far.

494
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,160
And so in the same way, in a spiritual sense,

495
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,800
when we're not willing to ask God those questions,

496
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,400
even if we don't think there's going to be an answer,

497
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,640
all we do is shut it down.

498
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,120
And when we shut down those questions because, well,

499
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,120
I've got to keep my faith intact.

500
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,560
It's not OK to ask God.

501
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,120
It's whatever that reason may be.

502
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:03,680
We basically are closing off a part of our hearts

503
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,920
in this intimate relationship with God.

504
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,800
So we need to ask those questions.

505
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,800
We need to ponder.

506
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,480
So many people don't feel they have permission,

507
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,920
that it's wrong to doubt God like that.

508
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,600
And we don't feel that we can be honest about our pain,

509
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,320
our loss, our anger, or the why God, why.

510
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,600
And I would love to make, you know,

511
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,800
that's one of my messages is God's OK.

512
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,800
He can handle it.

513
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,920
We're not ever going to be too much for him.

514
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:40,880
He already knows.

515
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,720
It's not like we're covering up or hiding something.

516
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,120
So basically, when you ponder these things

517
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,600
and when you're honest about your pain with God,

518
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,280
oh, my goodness, that is what Jesus can relate to.

519
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,840
He knows the suffering.

520
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,680
He knows the betrayal.

521
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,800
He knows murder.

522
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,760
He knows those things.

523
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,920
And if we do not bring that part of us,

524
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
we talk about sharing in the sufferings of Christ,

525
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,840
this is what we're talking about.

526
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,200
We are sharing suffering.

527
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,360
It may not be exactly as Jesus experienced it,

528
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,960
but he's experienced it as we experience it.

529
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,800
Well, and he's sharing in our suffering, too.

530
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,400
It's a coming together.

531
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,080
And knowing that sometimes, you know,

532
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,960
God's so big and so righteous and everything.

533
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760
But Jesus, at least we know, suffered greatly.

534
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,080
And so we know that he isn't just compassionate

535
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,080
in the ethereal sense, but he can be there

536
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
because he has been there.

537
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,560
He's one that will not try to shut down your tears.

538
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,440
He's not quick to offer you a Kleenex box.

539
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,600
He's not quick to say, well, let's go for a drive.

540
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:12,960
Jesus allows you to sit.

541
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,000
He sits with us.

542
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,200
He sits with us.

543
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,880
He accompanies us in our sorrow, in our grief.

544
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,960
And I wonder, you know, we ultimately,

545
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160
grief is a very spiritual journey.

546
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,040
It's kind of an other type.

547
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,360
It takes us out of this world into something else.

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,120
And we tend to think of, in this culture anyway,

549
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,360
we tend to think of terms of getting over it

550
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,280
or needing to let go.

551
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:52,120
What if instead of letting go, we saw more like letting in?

552
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,160
What if we pondered what grief might

553
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,520
want to show us about ourselves, about our loved one,

554
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,640
about life, about God?

555
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:08,000
What if we saw grief more as a doorway, not something

556
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,520
to be gotten over or fixed?

557
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,080
This type of processing is critical

558
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,840
if you have hopes of integrating your new reality

559
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,160
into your current life.

560
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,360
You can continue to stay in the past of dreaming,

561
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,240
or you can be so distraught and just feel like it's all over.

562
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,440
But we want to integrate our sorrow with living,

563
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,440
because they're all in the same heart.

564
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,560
That's a really helpful thought.

565
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,520
I want to make it a little more practical.

566
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,520
So you have somebody whose child has overdosed

567
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680
and not lived through it.

568
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,480
And the loss is pretty much unbearable.

569
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,080
The death of dreams, the death of love, because they're gone.

570
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,640
So you're saying wonderful things to walk through this

571
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,080
and not just stuff it down or be cheerful,

572
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,320
but to enter in with the grief.

573
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,080
So if you were talking to one of my prodigal lovers,

574
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,720
what would you say?

575
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,120
I know you've given us an outline in a sense,

576
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,200
but how would you approach that with them,

577
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,960
to get them on that path, to be able to grow and learn

578
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,280
and become and not be stifled by it,

579
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,280
not be stopped in life, but be able to have new life come,

580
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,280
even from grief?

581
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,960
Well, obviously, timing is everything, right?

582
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,120
Yes.

583
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Initially, if I were meeting with this individual,

584
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,160
I would listen, and I would ask questions

585
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,640
about their loved one.

586
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,600
And I would ask questions about the journey

587
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:01,800
that they've been on.

588
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,560
I would ask questions about their hoped for dreams

589
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,400
that have been dashed.

590
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,680
We would go through just unpacking years,

591
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,040
perhaps, of pain and sorrow and disappointments.

592
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,480
And you can't think of healing until you've kind of been.

593
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,720
And I don't mean it quite like this.

594
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,240
You need to clean out the wound.

595
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,680
But part of that healing of cleaning,

596
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,200
there is clean pain and dirty pain.

597
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,560
There is clean grief and dirty grief.

598
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,600
And in these type of situations, there's

599
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,200
a lot of dirty grief that gets in there, feeling responsible,

600
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,760
feeling like, if I'd done this, then that.

601
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,800
And clean grief is, I've just lost my son.

602
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,360
I've just lost my daughter.

603
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,920
I don't even care about eating or sleeping.

604
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,800
It would be fine if I didn't wake up tomorrow.

605
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,880
Those aren't necessarily suicidal thoughts

606
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,760
of suicidal ideation.

607
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,040
It is just the reality.

608
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,800
I am so crushed.

609
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,560
I don't know how I will go on.

610
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,400
So for quite some time, that is the journey we will take.

611
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,840
And as they begin to ask questions,

612
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,640
then we just explore those questions one by one together,

613
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,800
giving them plenty of room to meander all through all

614
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,040
the mazes.

615
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,960
And there may not be this bright, clear solution

616
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,720
at the end.

617
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:36,240
But it's, again, that presence with someone.

618
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:40,120
And years after, I would maybe ask them

619
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,120
about their loved one by name, say their name.

620
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,720
Oh, absolutely.

621
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:48,760
It's a hard thing.

622
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:49,880
It is a hard thing.

623
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,920
And so it's this ongoing.

624
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,840
Their loss is ongoing.

625
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,520
And we need to come around those who are suffering

626
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,400
at such deep levels and show compassion.

627
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,600
And how would you pray for that person?

628
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,320
One of the main things we talk about

629
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,160
is prayer is your way to make a difference,

630
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,400
to bring about change, to engage all that God has offered us

631
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,200
in this journey.

632
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,560
So this would be a place where people would pray.

633
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,280
But I wonder how we pray.

634
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,120
At such times.

635
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,640
Of course, that would be very individual to the person,

636
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,200
their loss, whatever.

637
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,400
But I would think just praying for great grace,

638
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,080
praying for safe people to surround them.

639
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,320
That's very good.

640
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:54,280
Because how we handle someone in that acute time of grief

641
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,760
may determine whether they come back to church or not.

642
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:58,640
I'm not kidding.

643
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,680
I meet with many people who have left the church or left faith

644
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,520
because of people like you and me, believers.

645
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,840
So I pray for safe people.

646
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,800
I pray for surprises from God that are very personal.

647
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,680
I pray for answers, if there are answers,

648
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,520
that they would be revealed either now or in time.

649
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,080
You just pray as the Spirit leads you,

650
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,720
as you know those people or know their situations.

651
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:37,360
And I would pray that they would not go the American route

652
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,480
and stuff their grief.

653
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,040
I would pray that they would allow this grief over time,

654
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:50,040
over a long time, to expand their world.

655
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,400
And it always does.

656
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:53,320
That's great.

657
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,280
That's really helpful.

658
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,040
Because the last thing they need to hear, which they hear,

659
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
is it's time for you to get over this.

660
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,920
And they're not on anyone's timetable,

661
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,880
but their own with God.

662
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,600
And so any last thoughts or comments?

663
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:12,080
I don't know.

664
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,200
There's an interesting concept by a gentleman.

665
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,240
His name escapes me right now.

666
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:18,760
That's OK.

667
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,160
It happens to me all the time.

668
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:20,880
Yeah.

669
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:21,880
Yeah.

670
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,680
Anyway, he describes they're not really stages.

671
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,320
They're kind of loosely like phases of grief.

672
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,040
But I think it applies in this sense of ambiguous loss

673
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:41,480
that we have the initial loss, whatever that is.

674
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,480
And child leaves home.

675
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,960
Child makes really bad decisions.

676
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,280
There's this initial shock.

677
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,880
There's this additional loss.

678
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,360
And so we have a grief that responds to that initial loss.

679
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,840
And then there is a very long, and again,

680
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,920
it's very individual, a very long season

681
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,800
of losing every time we think about them,

682
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,880
every time we get a note, every time we see somebody.

683
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,320
It could be you see one of their classmates

684
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,680
and who's doing super well.

685
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,840
It's just this continual losing, a reminder

686
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,520
of what is no longer your reality

687
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,680
and no longer your opportunity.

688
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,400
And then if we engage with grief and not fight it,

689
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:36,200
we actually can get to a place of what is called loosening.

690
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:41,840
So there's the loss, the losing, and eventually this loosening.

691
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,480
That's great.

692
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,600
I like that.

693
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,120
Very helpful.

694
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,440
Frances Weller.

695
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:49,360
There it is.

696
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,280
Oh, OK.

697
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,200
The name came.

698
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:51,920
Dr. Frances.

699
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,800
It does that to me all the time.

700
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,720
Sometimes in a minute, sometimes in an hour.

701
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:02,640
Well, let me talk to the listeners as we wrap up then.

702
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,440
You've heard Dana share a lot of things.

703
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,160
And almost all of us who love a prodigal

704
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,600
are at some place in a grief journey.

705
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,600
We come a long way on it.

706
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,760
And yet there are still steps to take and losses

707
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,800
that are painful to us.

708
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:30,560
So I encourage you, as she has shared a lot of ideas with us,

709
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,920
to think, all right, what could I apply now?

710
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,560
What can I do?

711
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:41,840
Who can I talk to that would be a compassionate companion

712
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,120
in this conversation?

713
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:50,080
And begin to make that part of your grief journey.

714
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,640
Don't feel the pressure to solve it all,

715
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,080
but to give it time to work through

716
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:02,880
and to give permission to yourself to grieve

717
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,240
and to work through it.

718
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,760
We'll have some of Dana's resources listed in the show

719
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,760
notes.

720
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,320
And so be sure and check there and click

721
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,600
on something that looks interesting to you

722
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:21,680
that you could read or watch or understand better.

723
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,600
So thank you, Dana.

724
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,240
Thank you so much for having me.

725
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,520
Oh, I'm so glad you could be with us,

726
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,200
because I know that you were speaking

727
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,640
to the heart of every one of our listeners.

728
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,320
Because if you love a prodigal, no matter where in the journey

729
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,720
it is and how old they are or if they're children

730
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:47,040
or if they're other people that you care about,

731
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,800
you've given hope and some tangible help of ways

732
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,640
to walk through that and not condemn yourself

733
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,920
because you didn't get over it fast enough

734
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,520
and didn't handle it better.

735
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,200
So thank you.

736
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,160
I'm really grateful for that.

737
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:10,640
And let me say, as I always do to my listeners,

738
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,960
if this conversation or this episode

739
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,000
has been helpful to you, let's make sure others know about it.

740
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,440
And so tell your friends so they can listen to it.

741
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,760
Or be nice to me and go and rate the podcast

742
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,960
and write a review for what a wonderful guest Judy

743
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:37,840
had on our podcast with Dana Russo.

744
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:38,840
Thank you.

745
00:41:38,840 --> 00:42:02,480
Bless you.