Interview with Dena Yohe: Can You Love the Holidays When You Love a Prodigal?, episode 42

0:00 Welcome back to When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I am so glad that you are here. And I can promise you that if you love a prodigal and you listen here, you will discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here. And you will also find help and hope for your own life journey. And today, you're going to learn what it's gonna be like to survive and thrive during the holidays even when you love a prodigal. I am so excited about my guest today.

0:42 Dena, Yohe, and I have known each other for many, many years. We've worked together, but we were especially drawn together because we've both been on a prodigal journey. Gratefully, both of our prodigals are in a good place right now. And we are so happy about that. But it isn't ever given that that will always be true. We've had our ups and downs several times. And it's been quite a learning experience for each of us. We've prayed for each other. We've encouraged each other. We've given wisdom. And we've kind of taken it different directions.

1:25 It's really exciting to see what Dena and her husband Tom have done. They founded and lead a ministry called Hope for Hurting Parents. It's a wonderful ministry that provides resources and support groups for parents who are hurting over the destructive behaviors or choices of their teen to adult children. And I send people to her a lot because she actually has more resources and a way to care for them. Her support groups are just fabulous.

2:05 Their experience grows out of their journey with their daughter, who was the inspiration for her to write Love on Her Arms. And some of you certainly know about that organization. Dena has a book called You Are Not Alone. And that's what her ministry is to make sure people are not alone when they're on this journey. Her husband Tom has a book coming out called Moments of Clarity, Wisdom from the Father over Prodigal. And I've had the privilege of reading it. And dads, you are going to be so blessed by this book. And so moms, if your dad's not listening, if the dad's not listening, you make sure he gets this book.

2:52 It'll be out soon. So I wish I had the date so I could tell you. So I also want to tell you that as a special thank you gift for listening to When You Love a Prodigal this time, I'm going to give away two copies of Dena's book. And those will go to the third and ninth people who write to me at the place in the show notes that says, Write to Judy. Now, as we begin, I have a little assignment for you as the listener also. Dena and I would love to hear how the holidays have been difficult for you with the Prodigal.

3:35 And we'd like to know if the helps that we have shared today, that we will share today, will be especially helpful to you. Which one? Which did you get the most out of or think you can apply the best? So why don't you even keep some notes while you're listening to us? Because this is longer than my usual time together. And so I don't want you to forget what we say at the beginning. I promise if you write, I will respond. And two of you will receive Dena's book. So, Dena, welcome. Thank you, Judy. It's great to be here.

4:15 I'm so glad you're here. And I am eager to hear your answer to this question. Can you love the holidays when you love a Prodigal? Well, I didn't think you could. You know, I think it's possible, but it takes some work and effort to get to the place where you can. So it doesn't just happen naturally, but there are some things you can do to be proactive so that that can happen. And those are some things we're going to talk about. Yes. But first, why don't you just take a few minutes to tell a little about yourself and the journey that you've had with your Prodigal.

5:01 I'd love to. Well, it started for me when my daughter was 12 years old and she cut herself the first time. She had been a challenging child in her younger years, and we just thought she was stubborn and difficult. What we didn't know was that she had a sensory processing disorder, which caused her to be overly sensitive to external stimulus, so sounds and taste and touch, and it caused her to be more easily irritable, agitated, have trouble interacting and relating with people, and we just didn't know what was the cause behind this.

5:45 So the first sign that something was really wrong was when she cut herself. Now, we handled that very poorly. We were so shocked, didn't know why she would do such a thing or what it could mean, and we chose to just not deal with it. Swept under the carpet, threatened her that this was it, you don't do this, this isn't good. If you ever do this again, you'll have to see a counselor. Like, that would be a punishment, which was so wrong. And we have since apologized to her and told her we're so sorry we did that, but we were clueless. We didn't understand. So it started there. Over time, she ended up with difficulties self-medicating with alcohol and pot and just got involved in a very destructive lifestyle, found out she had other mental health issues that we didn't know about, depression, anxiety were a few of them, and ended up in rehab when her friends were going to college.

6:45 Over to the next 10 years, we wrestled with her back and forth, and we had a lot of recovery and all of the trauma that she experienced with that. So that took us down a long road that we didn't know where or if it would ever end. So that's a little bit of our journey. And there were suicide attempts. She was also raped, and that's not uncommon. So it was a long road of a lot of your worst nightmares coming true. Every time I hear you tell that story, it just breaks my heart again for your pain, but also for hers and what she was suffering in order to be doing the things that she was doing.

7:34 Most people don't do them for no reason. And so that's a hard thing. So just kind of can you get maybe a story or two of some of the hard things that you had to go through? Well, when she went into rehab the first time, I had total expectations of this was it. She was going to be fixed. Everything was going to be good from now on. And it was good for three years. And then when she fell back and there was a reoccurrence or a relapse, I was devastated. I never expected it.

8:14 I didn't think that would ever happen. I was not prepared for it. I went into a depression and just a lot of doubting God, why, how, what next. And she struggled for years up and down after that. So that was one really hard occasion. The other was when we learned that she had been raped the first time when we found that out. And she had reacted so strongly. She felt so horrible about what happened. She had cut herself badly and was in the hospital in a psych ward and through her dad sitting with her all night just listening and loving on her, being there for her, she told what had happened.

8:57 That was another devastating occurrence. That was one of my worst fears for her in this destructive life that she was on that that could happen. But I had prayed and prayed. And when it did happen, I just, I was so angry. I was mad at God. I was mad at the people that hurt her. And I was so deeply sorrowful over it. And I think the next one would be when she lost her dearest friend and I was sure we would lose her too. Yeah, we had that. I just was writing about that, that when our son's grandfather died, his birth grandfather, we thought he would take his life.

9:45 Yeah, that's hard. Yes. So frightening. Yeah. You don't know what to do. Right. True. Well, since we want to talk about the holidays a little and how they're often challenging when you have a prodigal, can you tell us a story of a particularly challenging holiday time? Well, one was when our daughter had moved out and she was just floating from place to place, didn't really have anywhere she was staying. We didn't really know if we were going to see her or not. So we had no expectations, but it was such a sad time because things were so different.

10:28 She wouldn't be with us to go to church on Christmas Eve. There wouldn't be the special family breakfast together. And then I ended up being out of town, needing to go to help my father, who was in the hospital and not doing well. So I wasn't even there. So it was just my husband and her brother and sister. And she did end up coming, but only for like an hour. I don't think she brought gifts. She just came expecting something. And it was just such a sad time. The pictures my husband took for me, the expressions on everyone's face. You could just almost feel the sadness and the tension.

11:08 Things were not like they had been in the past. And that was a hard one, very hard. Another one that's almost a little humorous was in her first rehab, she was there over Thanksgiving. Well, we chose to all go and be with her. And we were one of those families at Cracker Barrel having our Thanksgiving dinner with our daughter, who was actually just let go for the afternoon, not for an overnight. So that was another, we laugh about it now. There we were at Cracker Barrel, one of our neighborhood restaurants with other people who didn't have anywhere else to go. We've been there.

11:48 With our son. Yeah, you try and appreciate what you do have, that you have them at all. But it's hard when it's very different and your expectations are not met. Yeah, I can remember times when our son, we didn't know if he would show up or not. He lived with us many times, but then he would go live with a friend or something. At one point, this was one of the hardest things, he came home and he wasn't supposed to stay at home because he repeatedly violated our conditions.

12:28 We said, we would love to have you here, but it has to be under these circumstances. And so he had left and he'd been gone to Tennessee to live with a friend and that he couldn't get a job. So he came home and he showed up and we're like, OK, so, you know, we let him stay for a night. And then he stayed for another night. And then my daughter said, so if he's staying, I'm leaving. And I went, oh, great, I get to choose between my children. And so he left and he went and lived for six months sleeping on the couch over friends.

13:08 And it's you know, those things are hard and it makes it hard for the holidays when the main. I think they don't come because they think they're judged, perhaps, or it's disapproval is there. Or they come to get what you might give them. But it's not a very often it's not a good bonding time or good happy time together. And that's hard. Yeah, I think they know that we're not happy with whatever it is they're doing. Yes. And they even we try not to say anything, but they feel it.

13:48 They feel our disapproval, our disappointment. And, you know, I tried to put myself in my daughter's shoes and that's got to be hard. You know, so we tried hard to just lavish love and speak positively words of hope and confidence, even though we, you know, it was hard to really believe it. But we wanted to say it because we knew it was possible. We wanted her to believe it. But, yes, they feel that. So I wouldn't want to go where I felt that tension. No, I agree. I understand that. But it's still hard for the family. Oh, yes. And the siblings. And if that's a grown adult, there's still there's the tension that's there.

14:31 And you don't know, especially if they're, you know, on drugs or alcohol, you don't know what's going to come. Yes. What did they bring with them? If they go out at midnight? And when are they going to come back? How are they going to come back? And what condition? Yes, those are very hard things. So what do you think some of the issues are that would create one of the choices they make, the things that draw them into this destructive lifestyle? And then what are the issues that bring them back and cause the tensions?

15:16 That's a little hard question to answer, I know. But I'm just trying to think how we help our listeners to get a handle on what's going on. Well, sometimes, like with our daughter, there were root issues that we didn't even know about. And there was trauma that she had experienced. And it doesn't even have to be something terrible, like this big thing. For her, one of those issues was that she had been bullied when she was younger. And it made a big impact on her, how and how she felt about herself. But we didn't even really understand that until years later when she told us.

15:57 So there could be things like that that affect them with how they think about themselves, how they feel about themselves, the lies they believe about themselves. It's hard for us to know how to address them if we're not aware of them. But those are some of the things. Sometimes it's the fact that we tried so hard. So as Christian parents who were involved in ministry, our children were everything to us. And we did our best to teach them what we believe and give them that foundation. So when we see them struggling or veering off into another direction that we're concerned about, we do everything we can to pull them back. And then out of our good intentions, we may lecture a little too much, we come on too strong, we keep correcting them. And without realizing it, we're being critical a lot.

16:59 And they feel that. And sometimes they live into it. Well, if they say this, then maybe I am that way. But again, that's hard to overcome. I've heard of some people tell us when they were parents, when their children were younger, they now know a lot of the mistakes they made that they didn't realize at the time when they were always correcting them or when they were bringing out their faults, but in an attempt to help them. But their children ended up kind of locking on to those things about themselves. And it was hard for them to believe that they could be different or that maybe it wasn't really true.

17:42 It's hard for them to believe that they can ever be good enough to. And if my parents have disappointment, then certainly the rest of the world does. And that's a hard place. Our son, of course, he had lots of reasons to have issues. And we did know about some of them, but we didn't know how that played out very well. He was almost nine when he, yes, almost ten when he came to live with us, first as a foster child, and then we adopted him.

18:23 But he could barely read or write. So when we send him to school and the grade he's supposedly in, he can't do the work. So we had to come in and do something about that. But he didn't like what we had to do to try to catch him up. But his dad was never in his life. His mother chose her addictions. And half the time he would be at his grandparents because she would disappear. And, you know, so he had lots of real trauma in his life. And so that causes you to have a little more compassion than you would. But there are things that are traumatic to kids that that create some of these kinds of actions that we have no clue.

19:06 And just things like the tension between an older sibling and a younger one. If they're born really close together, the older one can often feel like I got kicked out of mom's lap too soon. And the other one can feel like, well, they really like that one better than they like me. And so normal sibling rivalry can still create trauma in a person's life. And so then they don't know who they are and what to do. And most of us in more our generation, you're younger than I am, but just a little and would would have a little bit more of a toe the line kind of attitude.

19:50 And especially with a Christian perspective, we want them to represent the Lord well as well. We want them to know him and his love. But we still like them to act like they belong to him. And, you know, there may not be there yet. Right. So how do we approach the holidays? Understanding some of this, recognizing that when we went through it, we didn't really know what we were doing, but hoping we can help these people do a better job than we did. What are some things that will help us get through this? It could be a very hard time. It might not be, but it could be.

20:34 And how do we mitigate against the tension and conflict? Well, the holidays are really hard for parents who have troubled children. You know, the media, TV commercials, movie, they all give us this picture of perfect families, everybody happy. There's no problems or they're very minor. And so we have very unrealistic expectations. And because we feel like this issue is getting through the holidays is so hard for parents, it's one of the topics that we include in our support group material.

21:14 And we offer five tips that really helped us that we share with parents. And the first one deals with those expectations. And we say lower or adjust your expectations. When you do that, then you're able to just accept whatever happens. Because, you know, if you expect your child to come and behave a certain way, bring a gift, show appreciation to you, enjoy being with the family, they might be sulking back in their room, they want to play their video game or what have you. You can be hurt and then angry. Yeah, anger comes.

21:55 Yes. Yes. And, you know, when we're hurt, that is often our response. We get angry. And often we don't even realize, well, I thought she would do such a touch. I thought he would. And then when they don't, we just feel this bad feelings. And we, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling this way? Well, it's because we had an expectation that they were not able to meet. So the first that helps so much is just lowering those expectations. Number one is lowering expectations. Yes. Number two is to consider doing things differently. For your holiday, if you always did your meal a certain way, a certain time of day or a certain place, and them maybe not being there or being there, but making things more difficult and tense, you might want to just change it up. Do it a different way.

22:50 So number two is to consider doing things differently. And again, it might be with church. If you always went on Christmas Eve, opened your presents Christmas Eve, well, maybe do it in the morning, the next on the actual day. So again, your traditions, consider what they are. And if it's going to make you feel worse, more sad, upset, consider changing it. So that's number two. Okay. That's good. Number three is avoid social media. Again, seeing everybody's pictures and happy family, enjoying each other, it just makes you feel so much worse.

23:31 You're comparing what you don't have, what you wish you had, or you're longing for the past that isn't that way anymore. It just makes you feel more resentful and maybe bitter. So, you know, just stepping away from Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, wherever you tend to spend your time is so healthy for you. And you might even decide not to go back. That wouldn't be a bad decision, probably. I think about it once in a while. Me too. So number three is avoid social media. Number four is focus on others. It always helps me when I'm having a hard time, I'm feeling sad or down or upset about something, if I can find someone else who has a need and I can do anything for them, it takes my attention off of me, and I'm not feeling sorry for myself when I'm helping someone else.

24:27 It always uplifts me, my mood brightens. So it might be as simple as making a phone call, sending a card or an email, or you might be more active and bring them a small gift, a box of candy, some flowers. You can do as much or as little as you want and feel that you're able, but it really does help you feel better. So number four, focus on others. And last one, number five, is be grateful. Now, you know, it's the last thing we want to do. We're not feeling that way. We don't feel thankful or grateful. We're just sad and we're mad and we're down and depressed.

25:09 But if we can find something each day to give thanks for, even just the sun came up or you got out of bed or you had a great cup of coffee or tea, you can change your perspective and your outlook. And, you know, this was the biggest surprise for me on my total recovery journey. I had no idea how gratitude could change my perspective about everything, especially with my daughter. And since the last two podcasts have been about gratitude, that's a perfect thing to say once more. Because what I say in these two I did, the last two, I talked about that this has been the life-changing thing for me, is learning to do just what we're told in Scripture, give thanks in everything, pray about everything with thanksgiving.

26:05 And it changes me. It may not change the circumstances at all. And I don't have control over this person. I have some control when they're younger, but when they get older I really don't have control. And it reminds me of two groups. One is Bob Goff, who talks about love does, and the way that love acts toward people and the way it cares about people and reaches out and steps around over anything, the hard things, in order to keep loving. And the other is a ministry that focuses on the Middle East and caring for the people who are displaced and everything.

26:50 And their name is Preemptive Love, but they have a T-shirt that says Love Anyway. And I think that people who have prodigals in their lives, that's a good thing they can learn is love anyway. That should be our mantra. Yes. Now it doesn't mean that we accept inappropriate or unacceptable, but maybe there are things that are more acceptable or could be than we have made them. If we can learn to love them no matter what. And they can be, oh, feel welcome. Feeling welcome is huge.

27:31 And one of the things that you and I have talked about before, and which is God has really worked on me, is the whole concept of maintaining relationship. And we tend to so easily put some requirements for them to be part of us and with us. And yes, we can't have them be abusive and everything, but we can certainly do everything possible to keep welcoming arms and maintaining relationship, because they already know what we think about what they're doing. And so we don't have to keep telling them. They know.

28:11 So you want to name those five again? Yes. Lower expectations, do things differently, avoid social media, focus on others, and be grateful. That's great. And what kind of response do people give you when they try these things in your groups, your support groups? Yes. Well, sometimes they're like, oh, I don't know if I can do that. Oh, that sounds hard. And we just encourage them, you know, ask God to help you. Ask him to show you which one maybe you need to focus on. And overwhelmingly, with the first one, lowering expectations, we have almost everyone coming back to us and say, oh, you know, it wasn't easy, but I was able to do that and it helped me so much that I was OK with whatever happened.

29:08 I could be thankful for it. And if they didn't call or they didn't come or they came but didn't have a gift, I was all right, because I wasn't expecting it. So that's been a big one. Then another one is definitely gratitude, because again, you're shifting your focus. Instead of what you want to have happen, what you need to be OK or to have joy, to be able to enjoy the holidays, you can just be grateful for it so much more. God loves us. He's with us. We have a life that he's given us. We have other people who love us and want to be with us, part of our family, our friends.

29:51 It really shifts everything. So those two things, we get a lot of responses to. That sounds so wonderful. And I think that I would just encourage our listeners to recognize that they can play a major part in making this not a bad situation, whether it's Thanksgiving, Christmas or other things. I'll tell you an example of mine. This was not that. It was a birthday. It was my daughter Debbie's 21st birthday. And we were having a family dinner. And he was going somewhere with some friends. I said, just be back for Debbie's dinner.

30:33 Well, he didn't come and he didn't come. And this was we didn't all have cell phones then. And so he eventually he called and he says, well, they weren't ready to leave and I couldn't come yet. I said, well, then we'll go ahead and eat dinner. And he said, no, you can't do that. It's like I'm not part of the family. Guilt, guilt, guilt. And so I'm thinking, so do I honor my daughter or do I try to make sure my son knows that he really is part of the family? But what I did was I got really angry, as angry as I could remember getting.

31:14 He said, how dare you put me in this position? I don't want to choose between my children. And so I had to go while the family's all waiting for him to come. I went up to our room and I just talked to the Lord and I came back and I said, we will wait 15 more minutes. And then if he's not here, we're going to go ahead and eat. And sure enough, he hadn't gotten there, but he got there not too long afterwards. And he was just glad we were still at the table eating. And it all turned out. But if I had confronted him with the attitude that I had, the anger that I was feeling, he would have turned around and left.

31:56 And I don't know when we would have seen him. He'd walked out before. You did such a good job of letting him know that he was valued, that he mattered and keeping the connection. And connection is so important. A friend of mine who works in the area of addiction with families, she goes so far as to say that the opposite of addiction is connection. So, yes, they definitely crave that and want that. And if we can keep pressing in, keep doing the best we can to show love and acceptance, speaking to them positively, hopefully for their futures, it really can open that door where they feel more welcomed and more comfortable when they are with us.

32:46 It kind of reminds me of Luke 15, when the prodigal returns home, having wasted his whole inheritance. And his brother's been working hard and his brother's resentful of him taking that portion of their income and everything. So he comes back and he's coming humbly and repentant. But his dad didn't even know that yet. His dad, all he knew was my son was lost and now he's here. And he needs to know that I love him and that he's welcome.

33:26 And so the boy is down on his knees saying, Father, I've sinned against you and I repent. And just let me be a servant. He wouldn't even let him finish talking. He just grabs him in his arms, throws his robe on him. And of course, the older son was angry. So then you have the other side of the tension that can occur. I know our older daughter really one time she said to me, she said, Why do you let him get away with so much? And I said, Well, you know, if I were after him every single time he does something wrong, that's all I would be doing is correcting him.

34:15 So I have to choose the important things to focus on and let some other slide. And I choose the things I think will save his life. And she went, Oh, so anyway, she had her own issues, too. But in fact, my son always liked to say, Well, you know that Debbie's not as good as you think she is. And I said, I probably know that. And and then he says, But you think Michelle's perfect and she's not perfect. And I said, Yeah, I know that. But this isn't about comparison. We love each of you. And we're concerned about different things for each of you.

34:56 And but we want you to be able to know you're loved and cared for and desired as part of our family. But we want you to also learn how you're going to move forward into a life that and one way is that we're going to respect each other and show love to each other. I don't know if I said all of that then, but I would now. It's a lot more we would say now. So, well, what other thoughts or wisdom do you want to share with our listeners? Well, for us parents, I think one big thing is to remember that we're not perfect either.

35:36 You know, we did our best and we looked to God for wisdom and guidance, but we made mistakes. And, you know, when we were struggling with guilt earlier on in our journey, God pointed out to my husband that we need to keep perspective and that God was the only perfect parent. And look what happened to his first two children, Adam and Eve. They had a perfect environment. There was no peer pressure. They hadn't even sinned yet, but yet they couldn't even live up to God's expectations.

36:17 But did God do anything wrong? No. Did he make any mistakes? No. So why do we think we deserve any better? Wow. That put it in perspective for me. That's a big thing. So to just remember that God's not shaking his finger at us and he wasn't perfect. He'll fix it. He goes through and cuts out the stuff. I'm so glad. Another thing is to hold on to hope. I've heard you say that before. But not the kind of hope that is more like wishful thinking where we're confident that everything we want is going to work out the way we want.

37:06 All of our prayers are going to be answered just like we are asking. It's a hope that is based on the promises of God, the things that are sure that he's with us. We're not alone. He loves us. He loves our children even more than we do and he'll never stop seeking them. He has a purpose for all of our pain. There are so many promises for us to hold on to that are sure and true and that are this firm kind of hope I'm talking about. There are so many of them that we publish them in the back of our parent notebook that goes with our support group materials. There's 33 of them and they are the things that we can know for certain.

37:50 Why don't you share a few of them? Well, a few of them are that I have all the help I need from the Holy Spirit. He's our helper, advocate, counselor, comforter. Jesus talked about this in John 14, 16. He said, And I will ask the Father and he will give you another counselor to be with you forever. Another one is that Jesus prays for me all the time. So thankful. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them. That's Hebrews 7, 25. And he wants to help my child. He'll never stop seeking them.

38:32 He doesn't want them to perish. And we read about that in 2 Peter 3, 9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise. As some understand slowness, he is patient with you, wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. I think another one I really like is that this pain won't last forever. It feels like it will, but it will eventually come to an end. Romans 8, 18 says, For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. It might not be in our lifetime, but it will in God's timing.

39:14 And there are so many more about joy and his guidance and wisdom and his comfort that he's close to the brokenhearted. So many, and they are each so precious. And I wrote them all down because I needed them. And I carried them with me everywhere on index cards and put them up on bathroom mirror and kept them at the kitchen sink. And so this is another thing I would encourage people to do. Focus on what's true, what you know you can count on. And that's where your hope comes from. It's in God and in him alone. And he will carry you through all of the storms.

39:55 But make a list and keep looking at it because we need him so much and we can't remember. We forget when the battle is raging. We forget what is truth if we don't keep it right in front of our face. And we do have an enemy. Oh, yes. And that's another thing. Go ahead. Oh, just that we're in a battle. We are. It's not just my difficult child. Oh, poor me. It's a spiritual battle in the heavenly realms for their soul because we know he's out to steal, kill and destroy, especially to attack Christian homes and families. Our children who may have known him and received him when they were younger and then have drifted away.

40:39 God has a plan and a purpose for them. And as I said, he will never stop seeking to fulfill those plans. Always after them, those the end of Psalm 23, that surely goodness and mercy will follow us. There's a dog after them constantly nipping at their heels, reminding them of truth. And I love this, Judy, when Renee was out there and in her worst times and we were so afraid that we would lose her. We would pray that God would bring to her mind the truth that was planted in her heart when she was little, that he wouldn't let her get away from it.

41:20 And it was so rewarding to find out later when she had come back and was restored to us. She would say, oh, at the worst times, we were just about to do all this partying. I would remember a praise and worship song or a scripture verse would come to my mind. And it was like, no, I don't want to think about that now. So, yes, mom, dad, those of you who have sown those seeds in them know that God is watering them and he will bring them to mind at the perfect time and keep seeking to pull them back into his arms. Oh, that is so true.

42:01 And that enemy is also after us, those who love a prodigal. He's looking for any way he can cause to hurt, destroy us or just make us unable to walk through this well. And it's one of the things that's been most important for me in our prodigal journey is to understand that God is equally working on me, even as he's working on my prodigal. And so that's why I learned to give thanks because that helped me get through that.

42:43 And it was a huge part of it. But it also was other things that I learned about unconditional love. God told me, you know, this boy came into our home and it took a while to really love him. In fact, God, one night he opened me up and he poured a big vat of something in me. And I said, what is that? He says, oh, that's my love for Josh. You're going to need it. Oh, good. But what it cost was all of a sudden, I'm crazy in love for this kid. And I just needed God to help me understand that whatever I needed on this journey, he would give me.

43:31 And Satan would try to prevent that. But God's going to give me everything that I need to be able to walk this myself, as well as learn how to keep loving, even when that gets rejected or the decisions. We have to take care of ourselves because we've seen a lot of parents walk away from their faith or just get so mad at God because he's not answering their prayers that they just they need. Space and they they doubt his goodness and if you're healthy. Yes. Yes.

44:11 In the midst of really hard things to doubt his goodness. And yet he is good. I was just because I was working on another episode talking about how good he is. And he never quits looking for ways to do good to us and to our prodigal. In coping with our fears, we tell parents, even if your what ifs happen, we can still be confident that God is good and he loves us. Yes. Because this also affects our health, our physical health, our mental health. We can become very depressed. We've no parents who ended up in the hospital so sick because of all the stress and strain because they were trying to cope with all of this on their own instead of letting God be their strength.

45:04 Any other things you'd love to pass on to our listeners? I think my last one would be to just remember when you feel like you can't do this, when it feels way too hard, remember that your help is in the name of the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. And with him, you can do the impossible. That's great. So, listeners, I hope that you've understood or heard or figured out how you really can love a holiday even when you love a prodigal because God is going to be there with you.

45:45 And Dena has shared some scriptures that are helpful. She's shared perspectives. She's given you five steps to do. You want to repeat them? Lower expectations, number two, consider doing things differently, three, avoid social media, four, focus on others, and five, be grateful. Okay. Well, thank you, Dena. So rich and I hope so helpful to people. It's been helpful to me already. And so you can find links to Dena's ministry, Hope for Hurting Parents, in the show notes of the podcast.

46:29 And you can also find the names of their books and a link for her book, Tom's isn't out yet. And we really would like some feedback because we're always looking for things that are helpful to people and ways that we can give guidance. And so there's a place in my show notes that says write to Judy and you can write. And I would love to hear your ideas. I will share them with Dena. And we will also have books for the third person and the ninth person who respond. And I am so excited that you could be with us today. And I pray that God gives you in these holidays coming up, especially a really sweet time with those prodigals in your life, that he overcomes the potential for tension and even conflict and anger on either side that can erupt.

47:28 And I pray that instead you would have a chance to show love, maintain relationship, enjoy each other and have your family come closer together. It may be brief while you're still on the journey, but can look at that as a time of, oh, yeah, we were able to be together. And thank you, Lord, that you're going to help each of us to do that well. God bless you.