Josh McDowell on Building Relationships that Transformt (episode 11)

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Do you love a prodigal? Do you feel like you are lost in a scary and endless wilderness?

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Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I am Judy Douglass and I spent more than 15

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years in that wilderness. I believe together we will discover help and hope for your journey.

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I am so thrilled to welcome you to our podcast today. I have a very special guest, a very

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good friend of mine. On this edition of When You Love a Prodigal, we have Josh McDowell.

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Now I imagine you know who Josh McDowell is. He's got many, many books that he's done.

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Probably the two most famous are More Than a Carpenter and Evidence that Demands a Verdict,

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but he's so much more than that. He's a great speaker and you may have heard him in some

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conference on a campus, in a church, on the radio, in TV. He's out there, but he is more

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than that a very close friend and such a helpful and encouraging person and I believe he will

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be to you today. I want to tell you as I get started a background story quickly on Josh.

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Back in 2001, my husband became president of CREW, of Campus Crusade for Christ, and

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the very next day Josh knocked on our door and he said, I have a gift for you. And I

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said, what's that? He said, I'd like to take your son for a month. Steve and I both gasped

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and said, oh, because our Josh was in one of the hardest times of his life right then

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and for someone to say I want to take him, somebody like Josh McDowell was just a gift

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beyond what I could even imagine. So I have a question for you, Josh. First, what motivated

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you to do that? And second, what did you do with that boy? We've known each other for

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years. And I know you walked the talk and I knew you were having a struggling time with

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Josh, especially going into the position of CRU president, everything else. And I always

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had this philosophy, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And I thought,

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if I had a wayward child right now, and any parent can, I have this phrase, you can be

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the greatest parent in the world, do everything right. And you have absolutely no guarantee

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your child won't grow up looking down and say, I hate you and walk away. And I thought,

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if I were in your situation, I would just want someone to come alongside me and help

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me. And I thought the best way I could do that would be to take Josh for a month. Plus,

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I really liked Josh. I like challenges. And so that's why I came, is that my love and

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respect for the two of you. And then second, just my heart as a father, wanting the challenge

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of your Josh to take him under my wing for a month. And it was an incredible time. It

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wasn't easy all the time. I mean, the first week, I had my precious little Honda motorcycle,

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and I was downtown, came home and it was wrapped around the tree. Josh took it out, found my key

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somehow, took it out and wrapped it around a tree. And I kept my cool, which was amazing,

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because I liked my motorcycle. And I took him aside. And I said, Josh, I just want to let you

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know that I really appreciated my motorcycle. I went to guilt trip on him and I put a guilt trip

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on him. And I said, my motorcycle is one of my prized possessions. And if you had wanted to use

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it, I would have said yes, but I would have given you some precautions. And he said, I'll pay for

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it. I said, no, you don't need to pay for it because I doubt you could. Your mom and dad would.

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And, but that there started a relationship. I didn't get upset. I didn't show him out anything.

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Not that I didn't want to, but I just responded in love and sat down, interacted with him and said,

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there's, if there's anything I have, you want to use whatever Josh, you had the freedom to ask

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on there. And that started a different relationship. And then what I did is every opportunity that I

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could, I listened to him. I asked inquisitive questions. What is your goal in life? What is,

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what is something you do in life is you're the most fun you do. What don't you like to do work?

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What do you want to be when you grow up, et cetera. And then just listen to him. And that's awesome.

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And that really helped to develop a relationship. But second with that, I was very firm. I was very

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firm when he was going somewhere. And I said, what Josh, you need to be back at nine o'clock. He knew

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well be, he better be in that house or nine o'clock or he was in trouble. And, and a lot of things

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like that is a Josh, I don't, and I always explain why I don't want you going over there. And this is

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why Josh. And so I would lay down the law to him and it didn't take him long to realize I really met

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it. And he responded to it. But it was one of the little more joyful times in my life, I could say,

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having Josh for a month. Yep. And now it's just so wonderful to see a lot of the input of you and

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Steve into his life over the years has paid off. And now the man he's become, the father, the son,

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husband, you got to be so proud. I am. I'm so proud of Josh. So proud. So proud. And every kid

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needs a chance. Every kid has greatness in them. And it's part of our responsibility to find that

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greatness and pull it out. And most of that is believing in them. Yes. Yeah. And I think

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that's the best way to do it. And then I learned this. I went out of my way to ask Josh to help me.

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Not help him for him. Josh, would you help me here? Josh, I got to make this call. And I just

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don't know what to say here. What would you say? This is situate Josh. I'm meeting with these

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parents and they got this daughter that's just this, how should I counsel him? Wow. I got some,

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I got a lot of advice that you two had given him that maybe he didn't follow, but you two had given

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him and he passed it on to me and I would use it. That's awesome. But every kid has greatness in

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them. I'm so grateful. And you know, when he came home from that month, he learned to work while he

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was with you, which was wonderful. Cause that wasn't one of his willingness things. And he did

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well in his life and with the Lord for a while until he got pulled in with his old friends again.

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And then he was back down in the depths. So he had a greater foundation to come back out of it.

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Yes, he did. He did. And he did come out. It took a while, but I love that you all can still

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talk to each other. We don't see you much right now, but then when we would, he was always glad

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to come and be like when you were speaking in Orlando and that kind of thing. So thank you

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very much for your kindness. Oh, hey, doing others, you damn doing to you. And if I had that situation,

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let me tell you, I always say to people, you want to bless me, bless my kids. Yes, bless my kids and

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I'll do anything for you. Yep. That's how I feel. So Josh and Dottie, Dottie, his is one of the

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his is wonderful wife who by the way has been quite a prayer partner, prayer warrior, even for

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our son have a book out that's called how to be a hero to your kids. And most of us, we would like

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that when we to be a hero to our kids and not always look like we're just the disciplinarian

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in their life, but able to really build them up. And part of that book has something called the

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seven A's and it's how to build relationships with your child or in our case, we're talking about

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prodigals. And one of the things that I say over and over is the best chance you have to see

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a prodigal return and make better choices is if you maintain a good relationship with them.

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So Josh, you have seven A's, I'm going to name them. And I think we could start with the first

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one and we'll just see if we can go down a few of them in the time that we have. So the

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the seven A's for building relationship with your children. And again, with your prodigal,

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affirmation, acceptance, appreciation, availability, affection, approach, and accountability.

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Now, I don't see accusations there. That's not one of them. So let's talk about affirmation and

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then anything of the others that you would like to share about. What does that mean? Look, what does

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that look like? How do we do these things on a day by day basis with our children?

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When we affirm a child, it gives them a sense of significance.

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Significance is that feeling or thought that you've done or said something worthwhile,

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or you are someone of significance. And I found that when we affirm a child in their attitude,

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behavior, whatever, it results in positive behavioral change. For example, I was standing,

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sitting in the front row and my one of my daughters was two people down from me. And

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she really wanted to get first prize. And like her brother did, and one of her other sisters and all,

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and she didn't get first, second or third. And I could see she was so

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kind of down, you can see it in her face. So I leaned over and I said, I want you to hear this.

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I want to let you know that I could not be more proud of a daughter than I am proud of you.

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I'm so proud of the person you've become, the way you treat people, etc. And I affirmed her in it.

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And when you do that, it's incredible. It causes them all the more to be proud of you.

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To do that behavior, catch them doing things right and affirm them.

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I'm for that. I try to catch my kids doing things right, my grandkids and affirming them in it.

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Doing something, say something. One time a teacher called me and said, I want you to

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be proud of your daughter today. There was a new student who was really being bullied her first day.

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And your daughter went right over to her, befriended her, had lunch with her, everything,

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and walked her home. And I just had to call and tell you, I've never been more proud of my daughter

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than I have of my grandkids. I've never seen another student do that. Well, when she got home,

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it was Kelly. And I said, Kelly, Mr. So-so called me and told me what you did at school.

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And I just want to say, honey, I'm so proud of you. God has given you the most wonderful

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compassion for others. And that will cause her all the more to want to do that more often. When we

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affirm, it's very close to appreciation. We need to constantly express appreciation to people,

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thank them for something they said, something they did. I would constantly look for things that I

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look for things that I could express appreciation. Kelly, thank you for doing that. I really

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appreciate that. Sean, wow, you never know how much I appreciate what you just said.

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And when I express appreciation, it gives them all the more drive to want to repeat it

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because they like to be affirmed and they like to have expressed appreciation.

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Yeah, yeah, I agree. Looking for the ways to speak that I try it now with my children,

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but with my grandchildren all the time. It works with adults. Yes, it does.

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When somebody expresses appreciation to me, it makes me feel like a king.

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Yes. Especially if I know they're sincere. Right. That helps too. So talk about availability.

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When we're available to someone, it says one thing, I am important. Most people and young

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people spell love, T-I-M-E. Yes. Yeah. When somebody spends time with us, it makes us feel

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that we are important. For example, if you need to see the boss and you go to the secretary and say,

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I need to see Mr. So-and-so. Well, I'm so sorry. He's so busy today. He just he can't see you.

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Well, look, just do your job and call him. Would you? So she said, OK, call him up. So-and-so is

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here and would like to come in. She needs to see you. And they say, well, no, I just can't. OK,

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I'll tell her he would like to, but he just can't. I don't care what kind of relationship you have

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with that person as you walk away deep down inside, you have that sense. If only I was more

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important, he would have had time or she would have had time for me. Usually that has nothing

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to do with it. But that's how we turn it. Yes. Time equals importance. If you go and the secretary

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says, is it cancel all this thing? Very busy. OK, I'll tell her he wants to see you go in. How

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would that make you feel? Wonderful. It's the same way with our children. Yesterday, I think it was.

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And he is starting to work at a shoe store. He loves shoes. He could tell you every type of tennis

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shoe shoe in the world. He buys shoes for me. I got more shoes than I could ever wear wearing three

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pair a day because they are Tommy Falker. No, the boys, some of them I lined out 12 of them this

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morning upstairs in the hallway. And I got to admit, they're like work of art. And he said,

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do you think Papa will go out to breakfast with me Saturday and then visit the store? And so Dottie

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said, I just got a text. We were in bed and just got a text. And Scotty wanted to know if he had.

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And I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't even know what I have going Saturday morning. But whatever it is,

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it's not as important as this. And I said, send back. And the next morning I sent back a text.

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Absolutely. Let's go for it. What time? He text me at eight o'clock. I said, gotcha. I will be there

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and pick you up. And what that says to him, I'm important to my Papa Josh. Time communicates

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importance to anyone. Anyone. And so because time will speak to me as importance. When people give

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me their time, I try to be a good friend with Bill. I can never remember a time when I said,

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Steve never once ever said no to me. But I had people say this and I say this to people.

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And this is the way you say it. And Dottie taught me this is say,

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say, Bob wants some time with me and I just can't no matter what. I said, Bob, oh, I would just love

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to spend time with you. But Bob, I just can't right now. But I want to let you know if I could, I would.

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And Dottie said to me, for most people, that's all they need to know. Not to overplay my hand on that.

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Well, sometimes you can say, let's try for another time later. I'm very humble.

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There's not time now. Busy people take time for me. Very humbled. And that's how they feel when you

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take time for them. Well, I hope so. That's great. So another thing that you say here that might

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surprise people is affection is something that really speaks love and care. When we express

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affection to someone, it communicates you are loved. There's two great desires. And I say almost

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every single person's life globally, no matter your race or nationality, ethnic background or

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anything, you want to love and you want to be loved to great needs of humanity. I want to be

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loved and I want to love. So I believe that when you express affection, there's two things.

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When you express affection, there's two ways you express affection. One is verbally. I love you.

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I think the world of you, et cetera. Other is to express it with appropriate. I like to add

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appropriate physical expression with a hug, with a kiss, a peck in the cheek, arm around the

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shoulders, holding the hand. And kids are crying out for that. They're crying out for affection.

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Even when they say, oh, no, no, I don't like that. Don't stop. Don't stop. That's a normal response

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from a child. And so over the years, I've gone out of my way to express it verbally. I tried with

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each one of my children when I was home and we were home, whatever, 10 times a day with each one

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to tell them verbally, I love you or saying, you know, Katie, I don't know how I could have a

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greater daughter than you. Katie, if I had to do it over all again, God said, you have any child you

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want. I would want you to be my something like that at least 10 times a day. And I remember one time

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I forgot it was Katie. And I forgot to tell her that I loved her that day. And I was in bed and

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everything. So I got up, put on my bathroom, tiptoed into her bedroom, leaned over and whispered

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to her, honey, I sure love you. I said, thanks, dad. Oh, that's great. They do love it.

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But yes, we need to express it verbally, significantly. Well, I told her last week,

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I loved her. That's enough. Say it. You told her five minutes ago and you need to tell her again.

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Just like with our spouses. Yes. And then to express it.

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Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it comes back to bless you with my son. He was great in basketball.

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Very good. Played at Biola University, everything. And he loved the Lakers. And he made a comment.

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He wished he could take some of his friends to see the big Lakers series that was coming up,

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one of the games at the Pavilion in LA. So I rearranged my schedule and I said, how about

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Thursday night or Friday night? Well, it didn't matter. And so five of his friends, we picked up

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and we drove there and to save money, because it's pretty expensive. We parked in a person's

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driveway for $2 instead of $10 at the parking lot. So we walked across this large, at that time,

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it was a little empty parking lot with his five friends and all signed without realizing it.

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And I mean, I didn't let go all the way across that parking lot. I still remember it. Held his

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hands. And when I thought of how many times I reached out and took his hand, and then it led

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him to reach out and take my hand, a father son walk across the parking lot with his friends,

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holding hands. Most no, they would not think of that. You're right. What a, what a wonderful

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story. Well, I know that it helps me and I love to show the affection, but it's, it's so important

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to them. And now that I have 10 grandchildren, there's lots of people to have affection with.

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I got 10 too. It's a good number. Only I hardly seen most of them the past year. Anyway.

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Most of mine live near me. Last one we'll take, even though there are more.

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And that is you mentioned approach or maybe approachability. What do you mean by that?

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When we approach a person's world, a child's world, it says what I care about, my daddy or

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my mommy cares about what I'm interested in. My mommy or daddy's interested in. And that's

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about the only way you really show that an example approach their world. My son, when he was 10, 11

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years old, really got into cars. I mean, dad, that's a Porsche so-and-so. That's a Ferrari dad.

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He looked at my car said, that's a Ford dad. Anyway, he knew all the cars. So I thought I'm

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about the child's world. How can I approach? So I called some of the dealerships of all the sporting

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cars up in Beverly Hills and said, if I pull my son out of school, bring him up, would you take

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us for a test drive? Every one of them said, yes. So I talked to the teacher ahead of time and said,

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I'd like to pull. I never had one teacher say, don't do it. I always say, I wanted to get

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your permission for it because I highly appreciate you as a teacher of school. Every teacher knows

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when a father does something like that with a son, it's better than a day at school,

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a day with a father. And the teachers always encouraged it. And if I pull my son out of school,

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a day with a father and the teachers always encouraged it. And if I pulled him out just

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to go downtown for a day for ice cream during lunchtime or something, I say, I'm back by one

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o'clock. Oh no, take your time. If you don't get back to one 30, no problem. But I always got him

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back on time for the class. Why? To show my kids, I respect education and I respect the team. So I

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always got him back there on time. But my son would say, daddy, can my friend go with me? All

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of his friends said, can I go with you and your dad? Can I go with you and your dad on there? But

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I would approach their world. So I took him up there and in about three and a half hours,

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we rode in probably several million dollars worth of cars. And these people's incredible.

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I would walk up and I would say, hi. And they'd always tell me who to look for, like the manager.

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And I would say, is Mr. So-and-so here? Who wants to see him? Josh Mcdowell. And everyone would say,

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oh, we've been waiting for you. They had never had a father do that. And they would have candy

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bars, everything for my kids. And they would have books about cars and all, which kids love,

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you know, look through the sports car, all kinds of gifts for Sean. And then we would go out and

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ride in the car and they'd take us on a drive. I'd sit in the back seat if there was, otherwise he

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would sit on my lap if it was a two seater and they would drive us. And or I would drive. And

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that said to my son, what I care about, my dad cares about. Oh, one time I forget what

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Heather was into. Oh, I can't think of what it is. But I arranged my schedule and surprised her and

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said, hey, let's go do this today. And I stepped in her world that she liked. And it shows that

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what I think about my dad thinks about what I like, my dad likes, what I care about, my dad cares

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about, or my mom. That's what happens when you approach their world. Step in to your child's

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world. Why do we always have to go to the restaurant we want to go to eat what we want to eat, do what

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we do. Our kids are human. Most of them. Step into their world, go where they want to go,

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go to the restaurant they want to go to, eat what they want to eat, do what they want to do,

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watch the TV program they want to watch, etc. So my son was always into basketball. So I looked for

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opportunities to take him to basketball games. And my son knew growing up, my dad cared about

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basketball. Yeah. So that's why I say approach the world. And it shows that you just think that's so

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important, Josh. And I could ask you a dozen more questions. But I know you have a schedule. I don't

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have a dozen more. No, but you have a dozen more things you could talk about that I could ask you.

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Anybody can go to josh.org forward slash seven days and download it all. You can download my

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PowerPoint transcript and everything free josh.org and then just power forward slash parenting.

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What you don't know is that we're going to give away a few books of yours of the how to be a hero

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to your children that will have that. And so I want to part of the title of that book is same part.

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I almost wrote a book on it. How to be a hero to my children's friends. Oh, that's awesome. I became

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a hero. A hero to me is someone you admire and desire to be like. That's a hero. That is a hero.

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And the more my children's friends liked me, wanted to be with me, the easier it was raising my

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children. Yes, that makes all the sense in the world. And so I went on my way to spend time

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to talk to my children's friends. I would come home and Sean would be there. One of my daughters,

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Heather, Katie, Kelly, would tour through their friends. No matter how busy I was,

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I'd go over stretch out in the floor. Hey, how's school going? Hey, are you going to play basketball

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again this year? Yes, Steve and I, because our daughter was in soccer and he was coaching,

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we got to know all of those girls on the soccer team and they were over at our house often. And

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it was, they were our friends and their parents were our friends. It was a wonderful way.

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And your daughter loved it. Very special. Your daughter loved it. Very special. On the book that

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we're going to give away, we're going to give three away and all you have to do to be eligible

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for a drawing to win one of Josh's books is to go to the show notes on the podcast and go over to

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sign up for my newsletter because you can do that right there in the show notes and we'll do a

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drawing from those people to send three people a copy. When will you do the drawing? I think we're

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doing it on May 9th. So this is, I'm going to sign up 12 times. 12 times. Okay. Cause you need a copy

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of it. That's great. And we're so excited, Josh, that you could be with us. I mean, I feel very

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honored that you would say yes and that you would give this time, but I'm especially honored for the

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people who are listening. How would you ever say no to Judy and Steve Douglass? Just common sense.

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You don't say no. Well, it's, for me, the most important thing is these people who I

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am so excited are listening, having gone for 15 hard years through our wilderness journey, I call it,

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to have this opportunity to share with them things that God taught us and the ways that we

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learn not only to survive ourselves, which we'll talk about over the weeks ahead, but also how

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to love them. And the things you've just said are just exactly what I want to say. We've been talking

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about love and our next section following this is on grace and learning how to give grace to our kids.

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Let me add this. I like to tell parents, take time for yourself. Your kids need to know you're doing

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things alone, doing things you like, because if you don't keep yourself energized and healthy,

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you're going to exhaust yourself with your children. Take time for yourself and don't feel guilty.

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Maybe they want you to go somewhere and say, no, you know, mommy's going down to the spa today.

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Yeah, right. Your kids need to know you take time for yourself. That's good input, Josh.

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Can I ask you to pray for the people who are listening? Absolutely. Thank you. Oh, father,

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thank you that you're so accessible, that you're always there and you desire to hear our hearts,

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our desires. And father, I thank you. I thank you for the testimony Judy and Steve have been in my

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life and how it's paid off and so many of my relationships. And I just thank you for Josh

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and for his marriage and his family and all. And I thank you what a great joy he is bringing to

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his parents and to so many other people. And father, I just thank you for today that by

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the internet and all, we could connect like this. And father, I pray for each person that's been

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listening, that those things that you would want them to remember have the Holy Spirit constantly

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recall it for them. And father, bring people in their lives to encourage them in the things they

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want to do. Thank you for this day. Amen. God bless you, Josh. Thank you so much.

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Thank you for joining me today on the When You Love a Proud Girl podcast. If you enjoyed today's

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episode, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

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Your review helps the show reach more people with the hope and encouragement of Jesus.

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Don't forget, take a look at the show notes. And for more helpful information, resources,

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and books, check out judydouglass.com. That's Douglass with two S's. You can find me on Facebook

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and on Twitter and Instagram at JudyDouglass417. Until next week.