Nancy Johnson: Building a Bridge, episode 118

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at the When You Love a Prodigal podcast and also some help and hope for your own life journey. Remember if you think I should do that or I should try that, you better jot it down or you won't remember it. I know from lots of experience. So you are going to be blessed by our guest today. She has so much experience as a mom and as a counselor. I've known her for years and I know that she is a compassionate, wise and practical person. So welcome Nancy.

0:51 Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Well it is our privilege to hear from you. So let's just start and you give a little bit of history or background on yourself so we get to know who we're talking with. Okay. So I came to Christ when I was 15 and at about me too. At 15. That's right. My best friend in high school led me to the Lord and then dragged me to an Urbana mission conference when I was 16 and I began to pray about someday going to Africa and actually. And did you? I did. I did. I spent five and a half years in East Africa at the Great Commission Training Center. Okay. But my whole vision for college was to work hard at learning how to grow up in Christ and have a ministry so I could someday go. So I did come on staff with the crew and I spent 23 years on staff mostly in the campus ministry and seven years into it.

1:49 That's when I went to Africa and then when I came back I my kids got a little bit older. I decided to go get my master's in counseling. But it's interesting Judy. I always thought I'd go back to school and become a counselor. Did you really? Yeah. A lot of my discipleship. I mean it was like a revolving door. I mean there's this little taco place across the street in Kearney, Nebraska and people would knock on my door and we'd go over there and I would talk and I would listen and I would counsel and and I really cared a lot about the whole person even back then. And in my action groups I would have these girls I would give them books to read and then they'd have to report in our group on what they're learning and share a little bit about what the book meant to them and we worked on emotional health and mental health even in those years. That's awesome. So it's always been a part of me. Yeah. I recognize that because my daughter had a similar path. She was on staff for five years and student staff kind of things before that. But and then she went to counseling to school and got her license and and that's what she's doing and so it's been fun to watch her grow and and I've gotten to know you from some things we've worked on together and so that's been a very special thing and I know that you

3:23 have a lot to offer. So tell us a story of lives you've seen change just one or two. Okay. I remember you asked me that question and I you know I'm trying to brainstorm and one of the things that came to mind Judy is I see a lot of redemptive moments that are building into a redemptive story and that's good. And so you know coming full circle I don't see I don't have a lot of those stories but in the counseling room in particular I think it's a lot easier as a counselor than as a parent and so I'll share a little bit about you know some stories of good outcomes in the counseling room and then I'll talk a little bit about the challenges as a parent because they're two different places right. Absolutely. And I've been working with this 22-year-old young man he's a pastor's kid he's also on the autism spectrum and you know kind of had a you know jump out of college because of a traumatic event in his life a sexual type of traumatic event and you know he comes to me you know depressed traumatized coming from a Christian life and family and says I really want to trust the God and love the God my parents love but I'm just like torn up

4:56 inside. Yeah. And so we started looking at his timeline I do a timeline thing with with people he brings this big board in this this paper and he just starts the first five years and we just kind of walk through his narrative. That sounds like a really helpful approach to me. It's a way for me to get to know somebody but it also allows me to see themes and as we begin to identify some themes you know and try to unravel a little bit of why he landed where he landed he's feeling like he might be bisexual he's clinging to this and that he's got some addictions in there as well and he's having a lot of redemptive moments. Oh thank you Lord. And because because nobody's ever taken the time to listen to him and his parents are great I'm sure they're great but but I think his struggle is the only thing they care about is that I trim my beard or I pick up my room or like he doesn't know how to feel safe with his parents to talk and unravel a little bit of his story in hopes for some kind of connection so there's a lot of disconnection for him so the beauty of being in the counseling room with him is I have an opportunity to validate him and love him and help him sort out some of the things that that are going on in his life in hopes for redemptives outcome. So what do you do you think it's possible for parents

6:32 they won't be counselors but to learn to do more of that affirmation and helping them know that they're cared for even in their struggles. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would think that that would save you a lot. Of course you might not make as much money if you don't have any clients because the parents do a better job at it but I know that in my early time with our prodigal at that time who came from major disruptive things in his life because he was adopted and he was almost 10 when we got him and you know we didn't know what we were doing and I'm I tend to be an affirming kind of person so I could do that some but he made so many bad choices that you just get frustrated and you think you don't have to make these choices and so anything that you can say to parents to help them with that is gonna be a really good thing and I know we're gonna talk some about bridge building which is a huge part of it I would think. No it is a parent you know I had a son that made a lot of bad choices and what I've learned is well in the midst of it you know parents are pulling their hair out it's incredibly frustrating. It is. You

8:03 know bad choice after bad choice after bad choice but kids when they're young and adult kids you know children in 20s 30s the bad behaviors are driven by something. Yes they are always. There's a reason why a child lies there's a reason why a child no matter how old they are will make some of the decisions that they make and so you know one of the things that I had to learn is that there's something underneath that and that that you know my son has a really redemptive story and I'm so grateful for his narrative and and I think you know I think there's a lot of contributing factors to why his story is redemptive and I'm gonna share some ideas of what we can do you know as parents but I think extravagant love unconditional love is probably the most important. Yeah the foundation of. And as a parent I think we have to surrender our outcomes our dreams our expectations and recognize that God's got this guys this story. Now we have to surrender those and and and I remember there was a time with my son in particular caught up in some addictions and all the advice I was getting at that time was kick them out kick them out kick them out set this

9:37 boundary set that boundary and I was really torn and I began to ask God what do you want me to know about this what do you want me to do about this and I was so torn up and I remember because God wasn't calling me to do that so I was up against this tension of all these people in my ear and I made a call to a friend and I said this is what I believe God wants me to do and I'm just need some reflective feedback from you and she said well you have your own relationship with God and you know your son better than anybody so go with what God's telling you to do. What a wonderful thing you heard then. But I heard it from God but Judy what I want to say is the validation coming from other believers wasn't there for that piece that we can actually hear from God. Yes. God can talk to me about my son. God can talk to me Judy I drive to work and I ask God what do you want me to know about this client and this client and this client what do you want me to say and I lean in it's a very sacred place I don't just go in and go I'm gonna listen to people today no I really try to lean into what does God want and I think as parents of kids who are struggling we've got to learn how to do a better job at listening to God. I think that's so important so helpful we we do tend to listen to what's being said out there or said specifically to us because I got plenty of people telling me what I should be

11:10 doing but I have one person who said the most important thing you can do is love them mm-hmm and I had to learn how to do that better and what you're talking about of affirming them of finding out the what's under there to be causing the things and and yes some of it's what's in the world today and the society but some of it usually has to do with some experience in their life. Yeah absolutely absolutely and I think Judy and I'm gonna share some ideas today but I really think you know the bottom line is our hope has to be in a redemptive God. Yes know that we don't you know God in his power and God in his love can do anything and that as a parent I think the unwavering piece for me was that I hoped in God not in myself or my strategies or anything else or even in my son had had to come my hope had to be in God that he came you know to heal the broken hearted and set the captives free you know he came to redeem people's lives and I needed to have that hope and value my son and value every client that comes to the door that they're deeply loved by God and have incredible value no matter how messed up they are. Thank you that I that's the message and I'm very grateful

12:45 for you sharing it so how then do we go forward how do we see progress or how do we how do we engage with our our person who who could be any number of ages and different places in life some of whom will never go to a counselor parents who say I can't afford to go to a counselor or whatever how can we be part of the help. Well I mean it depends on the problem really Judy I mean when we're dealing with you know really significant issues like addictions for example let me just throw that out there because addictions are a category in and of itself and then there's other behavioral dysfunctional things that that adult kids are getting into and our culture is getting into quite a bit with the identity confusion sexuality confusion and those kinds of things and we'll talk a little bit about that but but in particular the research really on addictions suggests that trauma drives them you know everybody does something with their pain and their woundedness yes and you know sadly we don't develop enough really good coping strategies young in life and so they grab the the

14:16 other kind of strategies that might numb their pain numb their pain yeah and what what ends up happening Judy is when the addiction forms it begins to reorder the brain okay and when the brain becomes disordered then it's very hard for them from a behavioral standpoint to change because as they begin to maybe become sober then they're having some of the symptoms that are increased anxiety increased depression and they mimic mental health disorders and then they don't know what to do with that so they have to use again to relieve them and it's this vicious cycle and so with addictions in particular you have to unravel the trauma story in order to have a redemptive story so pause there just a second I talked to people and they think well my child hasn't had any trauma in their lives what might be a trauma cause what kinds of trauma trauma is any kind of event or series of events or ongoing life events for example that have a negative impact on a person's life that distorts their vision of their self and their place in the world and so with that being said when we think of trauma we think of something really big but trauma can be you know my childhood trauma was was related to my parents divorce but it was

15:51 more about the inferred meaning that I attached to what happened that imprinted my life I'm not good enough I must not be loved enough I'm not smart enough those kinds of things and so Christian kids have their own little traumas sometimes they're in a high-conflict family sometimes they're being bullied sometimes maybe they go on overseeing submission trip and they are full of anxiety or panic or maybe it's my mom doesn't listen to me it could be that it could be that or my dad works too much you know I never see my dad it can be a variety of things and I think for the Christian parent especially missionary Christian parents they often think God has protected them and their kids from anything that could be traumatic and that's not necessarily true it's not it's not true at all yeah I think of bullying for example parents don't know the things that some this child is this way and these people are doing things that are frightening or devastating even and we don't even know it or the kid who nobody will sit with in the lunchroom and you think well that's just life well it's a traumatic part of life it's a traumatic part of life and and and I think Judy it's safe to say everybody has some kind of trauma

17:25 because all of our experiences all of our relationships begin to shape the way they we think about ourselves about God and others around us and so any of these small experiences begin to shape the way that we think and feel about ourselves and if that's a negative template that often will lead to dysfunctional things or a place to belong if somebody doesn't belong anywhere with any group of people they're they're looking and grasping for things and you know back in the 90s you know when I was raising my kids with the tough love ideas that people were getting we were just addressing behavior there this person's lying this kid's got a seat oh my gosh how can you get a seat you know you know you're not working hard enough you're not doing this we say things that shape the way they think about themselves and so so this tough love idea that we just attach you know an attack behavior is is a really misguided approach because we're not asking wow are you having a bad day is something going on and we're not listening to the kids whether they're young or whether they're old and they're screaming at us to listen to them I'll give you an example I got this new client about six months ago and the mom comes in and says I need you you to help me turn my daughter around she is drinking she has identity issues and she

19:00 wants me to call her by different pronouns and by a different name and she's been in the hospital for a deep depression suicidal thoughts the whole bit and I said well I said how are you building a bridge towards her and she says well you know we're trying to explain to her that what we believe is we need to call her by her real name that we gave her in the right pronouns that's what we believe I said she already knows what you believe I've said that so many times and I said so why do you want to die on that hill I said I like you're creating shame in your attacking this idea that she doesn't feel comfortable comfortable in her own skin but why why why not just connect with her she needs connection she needs to know she's valued she needs to know she's loved she's and so I think Christian parents think of boundaries like this is my boundary and so if she's gonna live in my home then she's got to let me do what she's got to follow these rules and I'm I'm like no I I don't think that's what she needs she needs to feel emotionally safe she needs to feel loved unconditionally and what you're telling me is you can't do that well I think that's a compromise on what I believe I said it's really not and so here we are you know I can't help this poor child because I can't get through to the parent that that she needs to build a bridge in a relationship of

20:32 connection that this child needs to be heard needs to be seen needs to be loved and or else she's gonna go somewhere else so how do you do that well I mean like it's really tricky in the counseling room because I'm trying to build a therapeutic relationship with the parent for the sake of the child so it's very complicated and the mom kept coming back and kept coming back and it ended up being the mom kind of came around to building a bridge but the dad couldn't and the bed the dad wouldn't come and talk to me and I'm not sure how this this girl is doing because she was seen another counselor at the time and they weren't convinced that I could be of any help so if someone's open and says alright I I would like to be able to build a bridge what are specific or tangible or clear things I can do that would make the difference that would make this child know that they're loved and they're accepted they already know like you said that you don't agree with their choices and so you're not trying to convince them of your choices they know those how though do we build the bridge that restores the connections that have been lost that says even though I don't agree with your choices which you don't have to say because they know I

22:05 already know it but how do we say I love you no matter what it's what God does to us absolutely it's giving them love even though they don't deserve it and I think empathy okay I would I really think we don't do a great job with empathy with our children so what does that look like it looks like trying to put ourselves in their shoes if they're struggling with their sense of self their identity confusion you go oh my gosh I'm so sorry that this is so hard for you help me understand you know what's going on inside your head or inside your heart like I this has to be so difficult so there's no really like leaning into trying to understand what that the child is is dealing with and so part of empathy is being very curious and inviting curious that's a good word and inviting inviting help me understand I don't understand tell me a little bit more and you really want to open up that place where they can feel emotionally safe and empathy is one way for them to feel emotionally safe because if we shame them they feel disconnected they don't feel safe and so a parent needs to build an emotionally safe environment in that relationship and empathy empathy

23:36 is an anecdote to shame Brené Brown talks about that it's an anecdote to so much of letting the defenses down to empathize so I'm trying I'm trying to put myself in the parents' place to know how to to do that so they listen and then they still have this desire to see something change and it may not happen at least not quickly not and none of this is quick the unraveling of why they landed where they landed is is not quick Judy and so they really have to stay the course and build the bridge one brick at a time a lot of us don't have that kind of patience we don't have that kind of patience and I think I can use this example of my son I think that was a strength of mine empathy and connection with him even though he drove me crazy and it pulled my hair out a lot but I give this example I think he was in middle school I mean this is kind of a young example but it carries over into how I parent him as a young adult as well but he had an iPod pod that he loved music and he had an iPod and he a nice one you know like a $300 iPod and he lost it and you know he was all

25:09 upset and crying you know how much I connect to music how much I need music so I had this little iPod and so I said you can use mine and load it up you know you can use it try not to lose it and you know a couple weeks later he lost it and he's distraught you know you're gonna be so mad at me I lost this and I really need it and he was crying and remorseful and very very upset and and it was all I could do not to scream at him right like how come you yeah you know can't be responsible the whole parent reaction and I was driving to work that that morning frustrated angry and God whispers in my ear I want you to go buy him a new iPod and that $300 one oh there's my listeners are saying you can't do that right but I agree so I'm like fighting with God all the way to work I got on if time I don't have time I'm not doing this and really arguing a little bit God laid that on my heart and I had a hour-free near a radio shack when those were still around I went in I bought a $350 iPod I don't even know what I'm going to do with it but I bought it and God began to work in my heart and I came home and I said Jason come on sit on my bed I want to talk to you and I and this really came from God not from me at all Judy but I wasn't even sure what I was going to say and it just came out and I said Jason I bought you this iPod and he goes well why would you do that and I said well I said I know how much music means to you and I and I I want you to know that I

26:44 get you I get it I get that music really means a lot to you and I just want you to know I get you and whether you deserve it or not I really want to give this as a gift and I want you to understand it comes from the heart of the father and he gave me a big hug and he couldn't believe it he never lost that iPod but you know the message that I gave him was two things I get you and I want to connect with what means something to you and that it came from the heart of the father didn't come from my angry heart it came from God's heart it was extravagant if you want to use that word it was unconditional and I think if there's anything that Jason would say about me and his journey I mean he honored me quite a bit in his wedding by the way it was that I extravagantly and unconditionally loved him and and I worked hard to connect I have an emotionally strong emotional connection to that son and he and he knows me on a shadow of a doubt how much I love him and so there was moments moments there moments Judy in the midst of much failure as a parent and I think as a parent the other thing I would say besides empathy is owning our part like what have I done to hurt you what have I done to wound you and taking responsibility for for my part and and God gave me opportunities all along with

28:17 Jason to do that and one of my other sons is moved back from Michigan and we're having conversations and you know I'm learning things that hurt them and I think part of building that bridge is taking that ownership that responsibility that I did the best I could I didn't know that I hurt you right and really making amends with with these children and taking a look at our own hearts and that's not easy to do as a parent as a Christian parent no because we have high standards we we think everything we read is like is like a formula for success Judy and what I've realized I mean I read like I mean I'm a big reader I read a couple books a week I I love to read I'm jealous but I don't you know when people ask me about parenting books I go well I'm not really crazy about referring parenting books to you because each book contradicts the next the next and the next right so I have a few books and I'll say I want you to take a look at this book but take what sounds good to you and leave what doesn't because I don't think there's any one book that can really fully give you what you need in terms of the wisdom but the scriptures are adequate for that so I try to I try to really like tread lightly on the book side of things even though I'm a big

29:49 book reader I'd rather read research than than just books but but but we've absorbed a lot of we should do this we shouldn't do that mentality you know as Christian parents well and yes I find that it's often helpful for myself and for reminding others to think about God's attitude toward you how much he loved you what did he do in the midst of all of your sin he still had his son die for you and he offers mercy and forgiveness and how many times do we have to come back and say oh I blew it again and what is his response I love you that's covered and and still God gives us desire then to to change and the strength and the wisdom to do it so he doesn't just leave us floundering in our bad decisions right he helps us move forward but I just find if I'll stop and think what God's response is and so I go off into Luke 15 and the and the father who sees his son coming and runs to him and won't even let him give his apology and and he's loving him and welcoming him and I just just the things you're

31:19 talking about he built a bridge immediately he let him go when he chose to go yeah but he was watching he saw him from afar yeah he was watching he had anticipation yes and hope another another scripture that I look at is a woman at the well yes so Jesus he made connection with her he didn't shame her no he he let her know that he knew her and saw her and he offered her life living water living water yes and he embraced her where she was Judy like like in in Jesus offered her life in what we offer condemnation we offer judgment we throw shame at them when what we need to do is point them to Jesus yeah and we need to make connection with them because of Jesus living inside of us that may be the only way they see Jesus right and so that extravagant unconditional fierce love yes sacrificial love servanthood love whatever we we can do to let them know that we see them that we value them that we love them they already know we're not happy with some of their decision that's a given so they we don't need a harp on that just like the woman at the well you know you have four husbands I think it was maybe three I don't remember four but but the the

32:50 point was he didn't say that to shame her he said that so that she would understand that he knew her and see her and so we don't take that that compassionate posture and and we throw all of our emotional stuff onto them yeah Jesus didn't do that now he did not we are human so we do that but we have to separate our emotional life from their emotional life and that is not easy to do and that's where parents need a support system around them so that they can purge out there and not transfer onto their adult children so helpful so we kind of talked more about younger children in our home but an awful lot of parents that I know their children have rejected them right and they will want nothing to do with them they won't let them see their kids so they don't get to even meet their grandchildren that's really challenging and so do you have any bridge building suggestions for them well I well that's a tough one Judy it is because if you can't cross the child's boundary correct right their adult children and you can't cross that that boundary and and so I think I mean the bridge building has to be just being available and very inviting in your

34:23 posture with them loving unconditionally from a distance the best that you can do but I think Judy we're talking about you know something that these parents have to grieve the loss of what they had hoped this relationship would look like yes they have to really cultivate their relationship with God in their hope that he can do something and we have to pray diligently for them I mean sometimes there's not a whole lot else we can do if that boundary is set in it and we can't we it feels hopeless for some of those parents well and it's it is at a point in time yes because there's really nothing you can do but wait and pray and if an opportunity to show love and acceptance and extravagant love even you take it but a lot of it's you're waiting and praying yeah and in another approach is is really kind of having to really grieve the loss completely Judy and with that being said I think the goal can't be how can I get my child to love me again it has to be getting on our knees and praying that they would see their need for God and maybe God could bring this person into their life that could make a difference and turn them around because the real

35:57 redemptive story we really want is that they reconcile with God yes it'd be great if they reconcile with the parents but I think the perspective taking that that parent has to have it it requires a lot of grief a lot of loss yes that there's a there's got to be a hope that that could happen but the greater redemptive piece is that they'll see their need for God I just got a word today an email from a mom who said I just want you to know that my daughter has come back to me and to God and she's just she says we were she came and she said I'm so sorry and the mom could say I'm so sorry for you because the contributions go both ways and she just she says we laughed and we prayed and we danced because it was so wonderful to be restored they're restoring yeah and and but that's the way it is when people are restored to God but we can't make it happen we cannot make it happen we think we can and we can't that's just amazing so we could talk a long time I think but probably we don't get to so let me just let you kind of any other thoughts that you would want to make sure that that my listeners heard

37:29 I mean I think I think as parents whatever their age might be I think you go as you try to give them all the support they can eat even if that means some professional support I mean rehab centers for addicts are expensive yeah you know I mean I mean I've gone broke over the money that I've invested for example but God's the one that provides but I think because the process particularly for addictions the process for sexual dysfunctions for example as well identity confusion those are long processes and so I would you know just encourage Christian parents to do everything and anything they can do to get their their adult children into some kind of help outside of them yes because you know when we're unraveling the trauma story we're also addressing sobriety and addiction but in order for that to be a real redemptive success story you've got to kind of reshape or reframe the way that they think about themselves God and their place in the world for example because it's been full of negativity of self-sabotaging belief systems false beliefs and so the counseling room I spend a lot of time with identity reformation I call it and

39:02 for real spiritual transformation we have to have identity reformation and so I'm doing a lot of work in the counseling room with Christians reformatting their belief system even about God and so that process is quite lengthy and I encourage you know people to read more about this about you know identity our real true identity formation in Christ but I do a lot of that work with addicts and recovering people because if they begin to change their belief system about God and themselves that's empowering yes it is that that that is so empowering and it's hopeful because they feel so stuck I I can't I can't I can't I said you can you can you can you know like like but it it's a process you think you know we brought in your with your help somebody from a Moldova and a young adult married man and I spent all the time that I spent with him was in this reformation of his sense of self and identity in Christ because that's so important it took two hours every week for four weeks and I had my board and we're working through what are the lie base thoughts what are your false beliefs how are they attached to your emotions and behaviors let's address them

40:35 and I did this reformation of his identity and it's it's it's grounding in life-changing because that's where God does the spiritual transformation has to come from truth Judy and we do know some truth even if we don't always live it out well right especially to a misbehaving making bad decisions instead of calling that we have to use other adjectives more empowering average adjectives I appreciate your hard work I see your effort you know instead of cutting them down we need to build them up so any opportunity to throw out you know adjectives that that are life-giving we need to do more of that more of that more of that because we're honed in on the poor behavior and how it's affecting them and us but not their value in right right their value in Christ their value to us that we care we love them and even to recognize God entrusted them to us and we are not professionals and none of us almost maybe if you've had four or five kids you get better at it or you get tired but yeah it's I love the concept of interested and that therefore just as

42:07 I've been interested with a responsibility I need to learn I need to practice I need to seek to improve and that is required of us as parents or teachers or bosses you know that we all have the opportunity to help a person rise up as opposed to push them down and I'll tell you a story as we close so my son whose first nine years were pretty hard with his addicted mother and the people she was with and he just he was addicted and he made lots of bad choices he had a person that he loved and that was his grandfather who was in his early life the only real man in his life and he adored his grandfather and his grandfather became very ill and was dying and so he just told his boss because he had a job which he didn't always and he said I'm sorry my grandfather's dying I'm going to be with him so he spent a week there as his grandfather was declining and he just poured out his heart to him and and told him all the hurts of his life and all the value that his grandfather had been

43:39 to him and when his grandfather died we thought that he might take his own life as a result because he was losing the most important person in his life and instead he said I'm going to make Papa proud I'm going to change my life I want to make him proud of me wow and that was a major turning point in his life now there were still things that had to change but that was it because this person had been important connection the connection he had valued him and it was just the power of connection yeah it's beautiful it's so we're made for it we're created for it yeah like that these kids they need they need it they they need this they need unconditional lavish extravagant love and the effort to hear and not just tell mm-hmm and to not shame but to lift up give them the positive things give them the encouragement and you know both of us would probably say I wish we knew what we know now you know 40 years ago 30 years ago like but we yeah 40 we can only really try to equip and encourage younger moms along the way because we didn't know what we know today and

45:12 there's a platform for us to be you know discipling other mothers you know and families around some of these important values thank you and to my listeners did you write down a few ideas can you begin to practice them this week and the show notes you will read of some resources that Nancy is going to give us to be helpful to you even though she's not sure she can recommend books there might be a few so thank you Nancy I really appreciate your coming in and and speaking truth and love and encouragement to these people who love a prodigal so well it's a privilege it's my privilege thank you God bless you and God bless you to my listeners