Pursuing Healthy Families-Interview with Casey Gann, episode 165

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal, and also help and hope for your own life journey. And to my listeners, please remember if you hear something you really want to apply, if God speaks to you about doing something in response to our conversation, be sure to jot that down, or when it's over, you won't remember it probably. So make sure you're ready to apply what we talk about. Today, I am chatting with, oops, I didn't, yes, I did. Okay. Today I am chatting with and introducing to you a longtime friend of mine, Casey Lewis. She was first a friend of my daughter, Michelle, and if you've been listening to my podcast for very long, you probably encountered Michelle. I've had her on here twice. Then she lived with us, with my husband and me and Michelle, and traveled as my travel assistant. She got to go a lot of places that she hadn't been before.

1:15 Yeah. And remember, was it in India that we met the young baggage handler whose name was Casey? I think so. I think he enjoyed that as much as we did. He did. He was very excited. Your name is Casey, and they were even spelled the same. It was a fun experience for us, and I'm glad we got that and many other great experiences. So Casey, let's start with a little background on your family and who you are and what you do and how you and Michelle connected. Sure. I am Casey Lewis. I grew up in Tennessee, in Athens, Tennessee, actually, small town, with my parents who are still married and younger brother, Josh, and actually went to undergrad in my small hometown and shortly after graduation was introduced to Cru High School Ministry. I worked with, it was student venture at the time. I'm showing my age a little bit back in the day. I worked with student for a couple years, and that is actually how I met Michelle and became connected with your family.

2:33 And you all hit it off. Oh, yes. We were very tight. We have a lot of fun memories together from our time working together with CRU, and then we actually both ended up moving to Tuscaloosa after that year working with you. So we got to sort of continue our adventures together, even beyond that. That's super. So what's a highlight for you from the years that the year that we traveled together? Anything? So many. That was such an adventure that year. Well, let me tell them something first. So when your parents brought you down here and they said, please look after Casey, I said, well, actually, her job is to look after me. And they went, you did a great job.

3:33 Oh, I, you know, when I look back, I think I was very young to have been trusted with so much. Well, it worked. We're glad to have done it. Yes. I think one of my one of the memories that comes to mind is actually when we were in California. I don't know if you remember this. I think that's where we were. And we were speaking to some women, maybe with was that when was it Jesus film that was out in California at the time, right before they were about to move here? Yeah, is that yeah. So you're speaking to this room full of women and you step down off this sort of riser kind of a stage and you sort of lost track of where it was and you backed up and it fell right on your bottom. But you were so graceful and you did that and just kind of leaned over to the side and kept talking and played it off so well. And I loved how, how humble I loved your humility in that and just like your willingness to laugh at yourself. That wasn't the first time I saw you in the room. That wasn't the first time, you know, I, I have heard some of your stories. I remember the one particularly that you told to some new staff about, I can't remember what, what event you were entering, but you were coming down a big staircase and I think fell, slid down the stavers.

5:04 Yeah, well, I do that occasionally. So maybe we'll stop with your memories then. Probably too many like that. So let's talk about how you became a counselor and what motivated you to do that. Sure. I was living in Tuscaloosa at the time and I was working with college students and really, really discipling women as I've been doing for a number of years. But as we were meeting, I was learning that a lot of what they were struggling with felt a little outside of my scope.

5:47 I'm trying to help support women who are struggling with eating disorders and depression and significant anxiety. And I realized I didn't feel fully equipped for that, but I, I wanted to. And I found Richmont where I went to grad school, Richmont Graduate University is an integrative program where you get a really solid clinical training, but learn to integrate faith into that counseling world. And so that was, that was how I ended up pursuing to be a therapist.

6:28 And you've been doing that for quite a few years now. I have, I am about 11 and a half years in at this point. And you're married and have two young children. Yes, I am married. My husband Barry and I have a daughter who's four and a son who is nine. So I would think that both your experience in ministering to young women and then your counseling experience and then now having your own children, you talk to me about your passion for healthy families and those all seem to me to come together for that possibility.

7:13 Yes, absolutely. So I'm trained as a marriage and family therapist. And what that means is that I'm trying to think systemically about people that we all grow up in a family system with people who grew up in family systems with people who grew up in family systems. And so it goes way back. Yes, it does. And I think the more we can understand about our own family system and the dynamics there, the more insight that can give us into our own way of relating to the world around us. So don't forget to make sure as we talk some more that you talk some about healthy families, because that's really what I want to make sure we get across is how to have a healthy family. But let's let's look for a minute at our audience.

8:07 Let's look for a minute at our audience. These are people who love a prodigal. It may or maybe several prodigals share and and some of them, it's their own children or it's their grandchildren, or it's, oh, it could be a spouse even. And, and that when a person that you love is making some poor life decisions, and sometimes they're, they're just minor or occasional, but sometimes they're life transforming, life changing. And so talk a little bit about the fact that you say you've worked with prodigals and with their parents or those who love them.

8:55 So maybe you should let's talk about prodigals first and what you discovered. Yes. So I think one of the things that honestly, it was really surprising to me early on in my counseling career when I was working with teenagers, that was really my first opportunity to work with prodigals or work with people from the prodigal perspective. And I think teenagers tend to get a bad rap. And not that all prodigals or teenagers are all teenagers or prodigals, but they do tend to get a bad rap. And what I saw as I sat with them is that these kids were in tremendous pain. But what they showed to their family was that they were angry and they were rebellious. That is what their family experienced from them. But what was actually happening is they were feeling like a disappointment. They were feeling forced to lie to their parents, which is a tricky dynamic, but they didn't feel that there would be acceptance of who they were for whatever reason. And that was deeply, deeply painful. And as they're trying to sort out who they are as a person, who they are as an individual, there wasn't always freedom to explore that with support and love. It felt often like it had to really fit into a box in order for the support

10:33 and love to be there. And what we know about healthy families is that because of how we're biologically wired. Could you say that again? That last sentence. What we know about healthy families is that because of how we are biologically wired, we know this because of attachment theory, that our parents' approval, our caregivers' approval is a lifeline for us. And so if we sense disappointment on their part, if we sense disapproval in any way, that feels like a threat to survival. And so often what you find are that what parents are experiencing from their prodigal is a lot of rebellion, a lot of pushback, a lot of anger. And all of that is really covering up this deep hurt of longing to feel loved and accepted for who they are. That the way that tends to come out is through anger and pain because somewhere along the way they learned that vulnerability wasn't safe. So instead of coming with those vulnerable emotions that hurt, the sadness, what they bring is anger and frustration.

11:52 So that's telling the sum of how the person, the child, the relative, whatever, they could be 10 years old, they could be 30 years old. It all fits in there. And they think that their parents don't care or are negative about them or not as loving as they would like. They have their feelings. Not accepting of them. Okay. So talk about the parents' perspective a little more. As they see the choices that the prodigals tend to make or the way they react, how do they feel? What do they think is the cause of that?

12:45 Sure. So from the parents' perspective, it's really a hard job being parent, as you know, which is a tremendous understatement. And part of that is because you are the author of your child's life for many years early on. You are making all of their choices for them. You are directing them in making their choice. You have a very important role as you are raising them in those early years. And then they get to this developmentally appropriate age where they begin to make their own choices. And they begin to want to author their own story more and more. And you start to allow them to do that. And that can get really scary. That can get really scary.

13:36 That can get really hard. Because they're making choices that they're not equipped to do. Their brains don't fully develop. The prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until they're 25 or 26 years old. Especially with boys. Sure. Yeah, that's true. It is a slower development process in males, for sure. And so we're trying to allow them to make these decisions. But it is really scary to lose control of your child. And that is at the heart of the parent of a prodigal. This feeling out of control. We're no longer the author. And that is a scary, hard place to sit.

14:22 And is the current technology and other access ability of other people and other ways of thinking, is that the fact that there's so much more of that now than even a generation ago? Does that complicate things even more? Absolutely. Because early on, as we talked about with attachment, the parent's approval is supreme. That's what they're looking for. And that, in some ways, shifts as they move into those teenage years where they're really focused more on their peer group. So they're looking more for, how do I fit here? How do I find a way to belong here? Now, they never lose that need for approval because they are biologically wired for that need. But their focus is more on their peer group.

15:25 While with technology, the peer group has expanded well beyond the people in their immediate circle. That peer group has extended to influencers. It's extended to friends of friends of friends of friends that somehow ended up in their DMs on Instagram or TikTok. There's just such a wider group of people who are having influence over kids' lives now because of access through social media. Wow. You've said here, and you mentioned to me earlier, just that on both sides, there's a lot of pain. And so the child seems to think, I'm the one in pain, and the parent thinks, I'm the one in pain. And they both are. So your job is to help them through that and to not only grow and learn, but to recognize the pain goes both ways. Right. Yes. So I don't know how much you know about the Enneagram. I'm an Enneagram type nine, the peacemaker. And part of the way God made me is that I am a perspective taker, that I can look at any given situation and see the perspective of the people involved. And so that has actually been a really helpful tool to be able to bring into the

16:56 counseling room to offer empathy to the client in the room and build rapport and gain trust there and really create a sense of safety and then be able to sort of introduce what their child or what their parent may be experiencing or thinking or feeling. So you have mentioned here and to me earlier, a couple of things that you would say to the parent of a prodigal that you think is really important. Could you go into that a little? Yes. So to parents, one would say is that your hardest and most important job is to be safe for your child, to be a safe place to land. And that can be really challenging when the choices they're making don't line up with your values. That can be a painful process of its own. It can require some real dying to self. And... Wait, say that again. It could require what? Some dying to self. Oh, dying to self. Is that all? Yeah, no big deal.

18:18 But trying to set aside behavior, trying to set aside choices and really look at this person and remember that you changed their diaper and that you watched them take their first steps and you know that they drool in their sleep and that they snore a little. And you know them on such a deep and intimate level and have known them from the beginning. And that's part of the pain, but also, you know, it talks about in scripture, the fruits of the spirit and love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience, and self-control. I'm messing up the fruits of the spirit, Judy.

19:05 It's okay. They work in any order. We're going to focus on love. Okay. And know that it says, following that, against such things, there is no law. And I have a real aversion to getting in trouble. I don't know about you, but I really don't like the feeling of being in trouble. And so I take a lot of comfort in knowing that I will not get in trouble for love. I don't have to worry if I am working really hard to love people well, I'm not going to get in trouble for that.

19:48 That's a good and true statement. Yeah. And so being a safe family means trying to, as much as you're able, set aside behavior and focus on really just loving your child. And that's hard to do. And that doesn't mean enabling. You still set boundaries. Boundaries are really important. It doesn't mean that they get to just walk all over you or treat you however they want to, because boundaries are a part of love. Healthy boundaries are a really important part of love. And that's good to remember for the prodigal to recognize that, because they don't want the boundaries usually. Right. Though sometimes they probably really do want some boundaries.

20:36 Exactly. Yes. I think, I don't know if you're familiar with the playground study that was done where they observed kids on a playground and noticed that when the playground had a fence around it, the kids would be all along the fence, all spread throughout playing. But then when they took the fence down, they all came like right toward the center, they all stayed really close. And so those boundaries created a sense of safety and gave them the ability to take up space and to explore. That's a pretty awesome thought. So I was really thinking about this next thing.

21:18 You said that the kids often find a great hindrance to their trust and faith because of the way the faith of the parent is portrayed to them or that they receive it and can really cause harm to the relationship and unpack that a little bit. Sure. Often, the way that it's communicated, but also just the way that our faith is interpreted by our kids, we don't always have awareness of the messages that we're sending, is that behaviors that are perceived by our kids are perceived as that behavior is important in our faith. And if you're not approving of my behavior because of your faith, if that's the message that kids are receiving, that prodigals are receiving, that we can't be in relationship because of your faith, that it's somehow getting in the way of you being able to love me, then they've lost you and they've lost any access to faith. They want nothing to do with that faith. So what do you do about that? I mean, I think that's very real and not uncommon

22:50 that we want them to believe the things that we believe. Absolutely. Yes. So there can be an effort to impose our beliefs, our faith on them and for various reasons, one just being they're not there yet, but one being they resist it, they don't agree with you. How do you work through that where you can be true to your faith and yet not push away your child? Yeah. So what you've got to think about is what does it mean to be true to your faith? Because if being true to your faith is loving your neighbor, that gives you a lot of freedom in your relationships. It gives you a lot of power in your relationships because then you have the ability to love as Christ loved.

23:47 And that tends to draw people in. I think that often, and I think that goes back, this goes back to that struggle we have when we lose control of our kids. Often we really try to play the role of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're probably not great at Holy Spirit. You know, I think that's probably an understatement. I mean, we're really bad at that work, but that is what we do. We want to bring them back. Of course we do, especially if it really matters to us. Right. There is, yeah, that's true. There is also though the wanting to protect them from the possible harm of choices they make. So it's not just to believe what we believe, but we know the results that come and we want to protect them. How can we do that without pushing away, making them want to get away?

25:00 Well, I think that what we have to realize is that we don't have the ability to protect them, Judy. You can't tell us that. It's painful. And that is the pain of the parent of a prodigal, is recognizing your very limited ability to protect your child. That is the pain that you said. Well, I think that's probably true, but that's not easy to comprehend because we've been protecting them from the moment they're born. Exactly. And we know the values that we have growing up and that matter in our lives. And so we want them to comprehend and choose. And most of us are willing that they should be choosing, not just obeying us, but it's still, that's hard to get to.

26:01 It is. And you know, there may be some day that I'm coming to you, Judy, and you say, what is it that I said again? How am I supposed to do this? It's really easy for me to say from this position. And I recognize that. But I also can acknowledge that if we want to see them drawing back in, trying to do it ourselves, trying to control that drawing in, is more likely going to push away. I hope everyone heard that and wrote it down. We go back then to love, right? We go back to love. We love. So you said you have some questions that you would tend to ask in counseling with a family that would help them grasp some how-tos to help them understand what they're doing. And you asked some how-tos to make it about love and not control. So what would you tell the parents to help them loosen their tight grip on control? Well, what you've got to ask yourself is, does God love them more than I do? And that's a fact that he does. Yes. We find that hard to love. Nobody could love them more than we do. Though sometimes that love in the pain of the

27:36 conflict can dissipate some. It's like they're not the person that I've had all these years. Right. And do I still love them is a question we have to ask ourselves. Absolutely. Because now they've become this person that has hurt me deeply, that I feel rejected by. That's part of what is painful on both sides. Both feel rejected. And when you're talking to the kids, how do you help them beyond their resistance and anger to understand their parents, but more, what do they need to understand? When I'm working with the kids, what I'm trying to help them understand is that what you're seeing that feels like disapproval is actually a parent's drive to protect you. Say that again. That's really important. What you are experiencing and seeing as disapproval is your parents drive to protect you. So I'll use an analogy at times. Imagine your mom sees you standing on a street and a bus barreling toward you. Can you imagine her standing there and going, well, just make your own choices. You're going to need to decide if you're going to choose to move or if you're going to stand your ground there. Because to your parent, the choices that

29:06 you're making literally feel like there's a bus barreling toward you. They feel like you're in danger and they want to protect you and they're desperate to do that. And desperation can come out messy. It can come out really messy. And so then would you also need to tell the parents on their side that there are times that seem really scary, but you also need to let them stand and see what the results are. I mean, if we see them getting into drugs or doing unlawful things or being sexually active at a pretty young age and those kind of things that have pretty big consequences, do you need to say the same kind of thing as the bus coming or do you need to say, I need to let them experience the results? I don't think there's a clear cut answer to that, Judy.

30:14 I agree with that. But so what do you do then? I really want the parents to come away from this with some tangible things that they can do as they're, because the kids aren't listening now. Because the kids aren't listening now. So let's help the parents say, all right, my kid is stealing or my kid is definitely drinking and who knows what else. How do we help them to help their kids without the kids feeling over controlled? I think that a couple of things come to mind, Judy.

31:06 One is a parent has to realize their limited control. That if they try to shut things down, often it goes underground. And so if there's a way for there to be discussions, conversation around things rather than just trying to immediately shut it down, that tends to go a little better, though that can be really scary as a parent. But making sure that you have grounded, not luxury conversations about consequences of choices. That you have informed them, this is the consequence of this choice. Making sure they understand, okay, if you're going to make this choice, this isn't what I would choose for you. Sex at this age feels scary to me.

31:58 If you're going to choose this, here are the things that are important for you to understand to make sure that you are safe and that you are taking precautions. If you are going to choose to use drugs, this is not what I would ever choose for you. Here are the things that you need to know. Here are the consequences of that. And you're allowed to set boundaries. If I'm going to support you financially, if you were going to live in my home, these things will not happen in my home. As long as they're 18. Right, yes. You can't kick them out before that. That's true. That is true.

32:40 You can put them in programs. You can put them in programs. And there are privileges that are often recently, or more recently, you're seen as rights. They don't have a right to a phone. That is a privilege. They don't have a right to a vehicle. That is a privilege. It may feel like a punishment to you to take away the car keys for a while because now you're back to show her. Ah, yes. Living with the consequences of the consequences you impose can be really painful to the parent. Yes, it can. So let me take one last little jump here. It's been kind of surprising to me, but not at the same time, that an awful lot of the prodigals that we're seeing and people are coming to us about are not the teenagers anymore. They're not even just in college or something.

33:38 They're the adult children and the choices that they're making, and especially the separation. I would imagine you've encountered that some. Yeah, absolutely. And that is painful because you even feel as a parent a greater sense of a lack of control or power. And you do not have control anymore. You do not. You do not. So how do you still love them if they won't even let you talk to you? Yeah, I mean, you love them from a distance. You offer, obviously you pray for them, but also offer conversations, offer opportunities for repair. I would love to sit and hear how I've hurt you.

34:33 Now, it's really important that you do your own work around that. It is hard to have someone share with you their experience of you if it doesn't feel like it matches who you are or how you intended for things to be. And so you need to be in a really good, grounded place to have those conversations, to be able to hear this was really hurtful without just getting defensive, but just acknowledging their experience and apologizing for the hurt. Really true. Yeah, yes. So, well, Casey, any other things you'd like to say to these wonderful families who have a lot of pain in their lives and in some cases are in frightening circumstances with their kids and others there in beginning steps and in others they don't even get to hear from them anymore. So a couple of really strong thoughts on how you keep going and don't let it ruin your life.

35:37 Sure, yes, because so much of our kids' younger years are really consuming for us. They are at that. It is hard as they grow older to not allow that relationship to take up as much space, especially if it's painful because we want it to be different. But what I would say is that those younger years again set us up to believe we are the author of their lives, but we never were and still aren't. God is the author of their lives, whether they're walking with him or not. And so we have to do the hard work of trying to let them go and trust him as he writes their story. And maybe we get to see how it all ends, how it all comes together, and we get to see this beautiful moment and shift in the relationship. And maybe we don't, but we don't get to be in control of that. We just have to trust the Lord with it.

36:50 We do have to. To trust the Lord with it, and sometimes we see results rather quickly, and sometimes it's a long time. And one of the things that has been important for me is to realize that all of this conflict or misunderstandings or whatever isn't just about the relationship between the Lord and my prodigal. God is also working in my life, and he will definitely use the conflicts there with our children, however strong or minor they are. He uses those because he's still working in us. We haven't made it to heaven yet, and so we still have growth in our lives.

37:46 And so we still have growing to do, things to learn, open hands to maintain. And so God gives us the gift of a prodigal. I'm sure most of them don't like to even think that, but I will say that my prodigal, 15 hard years we had with him, he was a gift to me. I learned so much about trusting God and how to receive his love and how to love someone without controlling them, among a few hundred other things I learned, but those were pretty important ones. And so even for our listeners to say, well, Lord, what are you trying to teach me here in this process, this painful relationship? And see what God does, and get your eyes almost, get them off of the conflict over here and say, I still have growing to do. And asking God to reveal to you the work that he's doing in your life. So I don't know if you had any thoughts on that.

39:03 Yes, I love that. I feel like there's nothing to add to that, Judy. You spoke it beautifully. I know we need to kind of finish it out, but I also want to circle back to something that is taking us in a totally different direction. But just sitting with you, I'm remembering, like going back to the question you asked about what memories I have of that year with you. But I think when I think back on that year with you, the things that actually stand out are times when we were at home. I remember you made the first like real scallops I'd ever had in some kind of like Thai sauce. And we had dinner, it was like a special dinner we had together.

39:49 And like just sitting at dinner with you and Michelle and Steve, and you know, you and Michelle having these sort of intense conversations, and then Steve having this goofy commentary off to the side and like cutting his eyes at me to see if I heard. And there was one night in particular that Michelle and Steve and I were all kind of late talking and then it was like, Steve was getting ready to go upstairs and started singing the good night song from the Sound of Music and was just like, yeah, you're on the chin. Singing that song and I think just getting to be part of your family that year was just a gift. And that stands out to me more than our trips.

40:41 Well, that is very encouraging and the gift went both ways, I assure you. So yeah, everything in our relationships, there are gifts to be had. And I think that's a really positive perspective. And God is the one who can unveil, let us see the gifts that He's given us. And I will tell you this, Josh is in the hospital right now. He apparently has some dermatological infection and it required some surgery and it doesn't go away easily, it keeps coming back. And so he and I, I was there with him yesterday at the hospital for about five hours, just the two of us, except when medical people came in. But we had some of the best conversation we've ever had. We were uninterrupted basically by things I needed to do or things he needed to do or whatever. And sweet time talking about his life, his family, his family, the Lord and where that is. And I'm just thinking that could all have not been possible if we hadn't let God do His work in Josh and in us. And so I'm really grateful for that.

42:17 And when you in your ministry, your work are able to help parents see that kind of possibility, yes, it's hard now. One of the things we did with Josh to try and help him make better choices was have a tour of the jail. They do that at our jail here and I probably in many others. So he and his best friend who were not making good choices had a tour and they came back and they said, well, that didn't scare us since that's what you wanted. And I went, okay, at least now you know some realities. And so anyway. Going back to the idea of making sure they understand the consequences of their choices.

43:03 Well, we do need that is a responsibility and it's not a control. It's an understanding of consequences that they are inviting with some of their choices. So Casey, thank you. I'm so glad to get to be with you and so glad for my listeners to learn from you. So let me say this to our listeners. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful resources. We'll post some there. And we'd love it if you'd subscribe to the podcast or say you liked it. But most important, what it God say to you or what stood out to you as an action that you could take and remember to do it.

43:58 I know how easily I forget things and it's like, what was I going to do? Well, that's kind of every day now. And so I'd really encourage you to do that as well. God bless you.