Pursuing Healthy Families-Interview with Casey Gann, episode 165

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here

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at When You Love a Prodigal, and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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And to my listeners, please remember if you hear something you really want to apply,

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if God speaks to you about doing something in response to our conversation, be sure to jot

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that down, or when it's over, you won't remember it probably. So make sure you're ready to apply

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what we talk about. Today, I am chatting with, oops, I didn't, yes, I did. Okay. Today I am chatting

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with and introducing to you a longtime friend of mine, Casey Lewis. She was first a friend of my

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daughter, Michelle, and if you've been listening to my podcast for very long, you probably encountered

9
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Michelle. I've had her on here twice. Then she lived with us, with my husband and me and Michelle,

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and traveled as my travel assistant. She got to go a lot of places that she hadn't been before.

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Yeah. And remember, was it in India that we met the young baggage handler whose name was Casey?

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I think so. I think he enjoyed that as much as we did. He did. He was very excited. Your name is

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Casey, and they were even spelled the same. It was a fun experience for us, and I'm glad we got that

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and many other great experiences. So Casey, let's start with a little background on your family

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and who you are and what you do and how you and Michelle connected. Sure. I am Casey Lewis. I grew

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up in Tennessee, in Athens, Tennessee, actually, small town, with my parents who are still married

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and younger brother, Josh, and actually went to undergrad in my small hometown and shortly after

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graduation was introduced to Cru High School Ministry. I worked with, it was student venture

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at the time. I'm showing my age a little bit back in the day. I worked with student for a couple

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years, and that is actually how I met Michelle and became connected with your family.

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And you all hit it off. Oh, yes. We were very tight. We have a lot of fun memories together from our

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time working together with CRU, and then we actually both ended up moving to Tuscaloosa

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after that year working with you. So we got to sort of continue our adventures together, even beyond

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that. That's super. So what's a highlight for you from the years that the year that we traveled

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together? Anything? So many. That was such an adventure that year. Well, let me tell them

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something first. So when your parents brought you down here and they said, please look after Casey,

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I said, well, actually, her job is to look after me. And they went, you did a great job.

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Oh, I, you know, when I look back, I think I was very young to have been trusted with so much.

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Well, it worked. We're glad to have done it. Yes. I think one of my one of the memories that comes

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to mind is actually when we were in California. I don't know if you remember this. I think that's

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where we were. And we were speaking to some women, maybe with was that when was it Jesus film that

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was out in California at the time, right before they were about to move here? Yeah, is that

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yeah. So you're speaking to this room full of women and you step down off this sort of riser

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kind of a stage and you sort of lost track of where it was and you backed up and it fell right

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on your bottom. But you were so graceful and you did that and just kind of leaned over to the side

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and kept talking and played it off so well. And I loved how, how humble I loved your humility in

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that and just like your willingness to laugh at yourself. That wasn't the first time I saw you

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in the room. That wasn't the first time, you know, I, I have heard some of your stories. I remember

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the one particularly that you told to some new staff about, I can't remember what, what event

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you were entering, but you were coming down a big staircase and I think fell, slid down the stavers.

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Yeah, well, I do that occasionally. So maybe we'll stop with your memories then.

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Probably too many like that. So let's talk about how you became a counselor and what motivated you

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to do that. Sure. I was living in Tuscaloosa at the time and I was working with college students

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and really, really discipling women as I've been doing for a number of years. But as we were meeting,

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I was learning that a lot of what they were struggling with felt a little outside of my scope.

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I'm trying to help support women who are struggling with eating disorders and depression

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and significant anxiety. And I realized I didn't feel fully equipped for that, but I, I wanted to.

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And I found Richmont where I went to grad school, Richmont Graduate University is an integrative

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program where you get a really solid clinical training, but learn to integrate faith into that

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counseling world. And so that was, that was how I ended up pursuing to be a therapist.

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And you've been doing that for quite a few years now.

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I have, I am about 11 and a half years in at this point. And you're married and have two young

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children. Yes, I am married. My husband Barry and I have a daughter who's four and a son who is

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nine. So I would think that both your experience in ministering to young women and then your

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counseling experience and then now having your own children, you talk to me about your passion for

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healthy families and those all seem to me to come together for that possibility.

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Yes, absolutely. So I'm trained as a marriage and family therapist. And what that means is that I'm

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trying to think systemically about people that we all grow up in a family system with people who

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grew up in family systems with people who grew up in family systems. And so it goes way back.

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Yes, it does. And I think the more we can understand about

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our own family system and the dynamics there, the more insight that can give us into our own way

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of relating to the world around us. So don't forget to make sure as we talk some more that

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you talk some about healthy families, because that's really what I want to make sure we get

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across is how to have a healthy family. But let's let's look for a minute at our audience.

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Let's look for a minute at our audience. These are people who love a prodigal.

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It may or maybe several prodigals share and and some of them, it's their own children or

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it's their grandchildren, or it's, oh, it could be a spouse even. And, and that when a person that

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you love is making some poor life decisions, and sometimes they're, they're just minor or

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occasional, but sometimes they're life transforming, life changing. And so talk a little bit about the

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fact that you say you've worked with prodigals and with their parents or those who love them.

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So maybe you should let's talk about prodigals first and what you discovered.

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Yes. So I think one of the things that honestly, it was really surprising to me early on in my

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counseling career when I was working with teenagers, that was really my first opportunity

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to work with prodigals or work with people from the prodigal perspective. And I think teenagers

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tend to get a bad rap. And not that all prodigals or teenagers are all teenagers or prodigals,

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but they do tend to get a bad rap. And what I saw as I sat with them is that these kids were in

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tremendous pain. But what they showed to their family was that they were angry and they were

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rebellious. That is what their family experienced from them. But what was actually happening is

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they were feeling like a disappointment. They were feeling forced to lie to their parents,

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which is a tricky dynamic, but they didn't feel that there would be acceptance of who they were

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for whatever reason. And that was deeply, deeply painful. And as they're trying to sort out who

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they are as a person, who they are as an individual, there wasn't always freedom to explore that

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with support and love. It felt often like it had to really fit into a box in order for the support

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and love to be there. And what we know about healthy families is that because of how we're

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biologically wired. Could you say that again? That last sentence. What we know about healthy

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families is that because of how we are biologically wired, we know this because of attachment theory,

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that our parents' approval, our caregivers' approval is a lifeline for us. And so if we sense

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disappointment on their part, if we sense disapproval in any way, that feels like a threat

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to survival. And so often what you find are that what parents are experiencing from their prodigal

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is a lot of rebellion, a lot of pushback, a lot of anger. And all of that is really covering up

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this deep hurt of longing to feel loved and accepted for who they are. That the way that

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tends to come out is through anger and pain because somewhere along the way they learned

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that vulnerability wasn't safe. So instead of coming with those vulnerable emotions that hurt,

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the sadness, what they bring is anger and frustration.

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So that's telling the sum of how the person, the child, the relative, whatever, they could be 10

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years old, they could be 30 years old. It all fits in there. And they think that their parents

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don't care or are negative about them or not as loving as they would like. They have their

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feelings.

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Not accepting of them.

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Okay. So talk about the parents' perspective a little more. As they see the choices that the

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prodigals tend to make or the way they react, how do they feel? What do they think is the

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cause of that?

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Sure. So from the parents' perspective, it's really a hard job being parent, as you know,

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which is a tremendous understatement. And part of that is because you are the author of your

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child's life for many years early on. You are making all of their choices for them. You are

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directing them in making their choice. You have a very important role as you are raising them in

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those early years. And then they get to this developmentally appropriate age where they begin

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to make their own choices. And they begin to want to author their own story more and more. And you

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start to allow them to do that. And that can get really scary. That can get really scary.

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That can get really hard. Because they're making choices that they're not equipped to do. Their

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brains don't fully develop. The prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until they're 25 or 26 years

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old.

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Especially with boys.

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Sure. Yeah, that's true. It is a slower development process in males, for sure. And so we're

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trying to allow them to make these decisions. But it is really scary to lose control of your child.

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And that is at the heart of the parent of a prodigal. This feeling out of control. We're

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no longer the author. And that is a scary, hard place to sit.

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And is the current technology and other access ability of other people and other ways of

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thinking, is that the fact that there's so much more of that now than even a generation ago?

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Does that complicate things even more?

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Absolutely. Because early on, as we talked about with attachment, the parent's approval is supreme.

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That's what they're looking for. And that, in some ways, shifts as they move into those

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teenage years where they're really focused more on their peer group. So they're looking more for,

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how do I fit here? How do I find a way to belong here? Now, they never lose that need for approval

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because they are biologically wired for that need. But their focus is more on their peer group.

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While with technology, the peer group has expanded well beyond the people in their immediate circle.

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That peer group has extended to influencers. It's extended to friends of friends of friends of

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friends that somehow ended up in their DMs on Instagram or TikTok. There's just such a wider

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group of people who are having influence over kids' lives now because of access through social media.

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Wow. You've said here, and you mentioned to me earlier, just that on both sides, there's a lot

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of pain. And so the child seems to think, I'm the one in pain, and the parent thinks, I'm the one

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in pain. And they both are. So your job is to help them through that and to not only grow and learn,

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but to recognize the pain goes both ways. Right. Yes. So I don't know how much you know about the

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Enneagram. I'm an Enneagram type nine, the peacemaker. And part of the way God made me is that

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I am a perspective taker, that I can look at any given situation and see the perspective of

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the people involved. And so that has actually been a really helpful tool to be able to bring into the

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counseling room to offer empathy to the client in the room and build rapport and gain trust there

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and really create a sense of safety and then be able to sort of introduce what their child or what

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their parent may be experiencing or thinking or feeling. So you have mentioned here and to me

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earlier, a couple of things that you would say to the parent of a prodigal that you think is really

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important. Could you go into that a little? Yes. So to parents, one would say is that your hardest

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and most important job is to be safe for your child, to be a safe place to land. And that can

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be really challenging when the choices they're making don't line up with your values. That can

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be a painful process of its own. It can require some real dying to self. And... Wait, say that

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again. It could require what? Some dying to self. Oh, dying to self. Is that all? Yeah, no big deal.

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But trying to set aside behavior, trying to set aside choices and really look at this person and

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remember that you changed their diaper and that you watched them take their first steps and

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you know that they drool in their sleep and that they snore a little. And you know them on such a

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deep and intimate level and have known them from the beginning. And that's part of the pain, but

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also, you know, it talks about in scripture, the fruits of the spirit and love, joy, peace,

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gentleness, kindness, patience, and self-control. I'm messing up the fruits of the spirit, Judy.

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It's okay. They work in any order. We're going to focus on love. Okay. And know that it says,

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following that, against such things, there is no law. And I have a real aversion to getting in

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trouble. I don't know about you, but I really don't like the feeling of being in trouble. And

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so I take a lot of comfort in knowing that I will not get in trouble for love. I don't have to worry

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if I am working really hard to love people well, I'm not going to get in trouble for that.

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That's a good and true statement. Yeah. And so being a safe family means trying to, as much as

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you're able, set aside behavior and focus on really just loving your child. And that's hard to do.

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And that doesn't mean enabling. You still set boundaries. Boundaries are really important.

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It doesn't mean that they get to just walk all over you or treat you however they want to,

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because boundaries are a part of love. Healthy boundaries are a really important part of love.

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And that's good to remember for the prodigal to recognize that, because they don't want the

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boundaries usually. Right. Though sometimes they probably really do want some boundaries.

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Exactly. Yes. I think, I don't know if you're familiar with the playground study that was done

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where they observed kids on a playground and noticed that when the playground had a fence

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around it, the kids would be all along the fence, all spread throughout playing. But then when they

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took the fence down, they all came like right toward the center, they all stayed really close.

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And so those boundaries created a sense of safety and gave them the ability to take up space

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and to explore. That's a pretty awesome thought. So I was really thinking about this next thing.

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You said that the kids often find a great hindrance to their trust and faith because of the way the

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faith of the parent is portrayed to them or that they receive it and can really cause harm to the

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relationship and unpack that a little bit. Sure. Often, the way that it's communicated, but also

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just the way that our faith is interpreted by our kids, we don't always have awareness of the

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messages that we're sending, is that behaviors that are perceived by our kids are perceived

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as that behavior is important in our faith. And if you're not approving of my behavior because of

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your faith, if that's the message that kids are receiving, that prodigals are receiving, that

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we can't be in relationship because of your faith, that it's somehow getting in the way of you being

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able to love me, then they've lost you and they've lost any access to faith. They want nothing to do

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with that faith. So what do you do about that? I mean, I think that's very real and not uncommon

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that we want them to believe the things that we believe. Absolutely. Yes. So there can be

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an effort to impose our beliefs, our faith on them and for various reasons, one just being they're

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not there yet, but one being they resist it, they don't agree with you. How do you work through that

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where you can be true to your faith and yet not push away your child? Yeah. So what you've got to

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think about is what does it mean to be true to your faith? Because if being true to your faith

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is loving your neighbor, that gives you a lot of freedom in your relationships. It gives you a lot

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of power in your relationships because then you have the ability to love as Christ loved.

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And that tends to draw people in. I think that often, and I think that goes back, this goes back

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to that struggle we have when we lose control of our kids. Often we really try to play the role of

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the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're probably not great at Holy Spirit. You know, I think that's

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probably an understatement. I mean, we're really bad at that work, but that is what we do. We want

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to bring them back. Of course we do, especially if it really matters to us. Right. There is,

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yeah, that's true. There is also though the wanting to protect them from the possible harm

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of choices they make. So it's not just to believe what we believe, but we know the results that come

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and we want to protect them. How can we do that without pushing away, making them want to get away?

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Well, I think that what we have to realize is that we don't have the ability to protect them, Judy.

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You can't tell us that.

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It's painful. And that is the pain of the parent of a prodigal, is recognizing your

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very limited ability to protect your child. That is the pain that you said. Well, I think that's

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probably true, but that's not easy to comprehend because we've been protecting them from the

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moment they're born. Exactly. And we know the values that we have growing up and that matter

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in our lives. And so we want them to comprehend and choose. And most of us are willing that they

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should be choosing, not just obeying us, but it's still, that's hard to get to.

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It is. And you know, there may be some day that I'm coming to you, Judy, and you say,

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what is it that I said again? How am I supposed to do this? It's really easy for me to say from

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this position. And I recognize that. But I also can acknowledge that if we want to see them drawing

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back in, trying to do it ourselves, trying to control that drawing in, is more likely going to

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push away. I hope everyone heard that and wrote it down. We go back then to love, right? We go back

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to love. We love. So you said you have some questions that you would tend to ask in counseling

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with a family that would help them grasp some how-tos to help them understand what they're

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doing. And you asked some how-tos to make it about love and not control. So what would you tell the

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parents to help them loosen their tight grip on control? Well, what you've got to ask yourself

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is, does God love them more than I do? And that's a fact that he does. Yes. We find that hard to

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love. Nobody could love them more than we do. Though sometimes that love in the pain of the

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conflict can dissipate some. It's like they're not the person that I've had all these years.

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Right. And do I still love them is a question we have to ask ourselves. Absolutely. Because now

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they've become this person that has hurt me deeply, that I feel rejected by. That's part of what is

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painful on both sides. Both feel rejected. And when you're talking to the kids, how do you help

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them beyond their resistance and anger to understand their parents, but more,

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what do they need to understand? When I'm working with the kids, what I'm trying to help them

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understand is that what you're seeing that feels like disapproval is actually a parent's drive to

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protect you. Say that again. That's really important. What you are experiencing and seeing as

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disapproval is your parents drive to protect you. So I'll use an analogy at times. Imagine your mom

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sees you standing on a street and a bus barreling toward you. Can you imagine her standing there and

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going, well, just make your own choices. You're going to need to decide if you're going to choose

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to move or if you're going to stand your ground there. Because to your parent, the choices that

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you're making literally feel like there's a bus barreling toward you. They feel like you're in

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danger and they want to protect you and they're desperate to do that. And desperation can come out

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messy. It can come out really messy. And so then would you also need to tell the parents on their

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side that there are times that seem really scary, but you also need to let them stand and see what

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the results are. I mean, if we see them getting into drugs or doing unlawful things or being

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sexually active at a pretty young age and those kind of things that have pretty big consequences,

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do you need to say the same kind of thing as the bus coming or do you need to say,

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I need to let them experience the results? I don't think there's a clear cut answer to that, Judy.

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I agree with that. But so what do you do then? I really want the parents to come away from this

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with some tangible things that they can do as they're, because the kids aren't listening now.

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Because the kids aren't listening now. So let's help the parents say, all right, my kid is stealing

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or my kid is definitely drinking and who knows what else. How do we help them to help their kids

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without the kids feeling over controlled? I think that a couple of things come to mind, Judy.

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One is a parent has to realize their limited control. That if they try to shut things down,

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often it goes underground. And so if there's a way for there to be discussions, conversation around

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things rather than just trying to immediately shut it down, that tends to go a little better,

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though that can be really scary as a parent. But making sure that you have grounded,

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not luxury conversations about consequences of choices. That you have informed them,

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this is the consequence of this choice. Making sure they understand, okay, if you're going to

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make this choice, this isn't what I would choose for you. Sex at this age feels scary to me.

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If you're going to choose this, here are the things that are important for you to understand

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to make sure that you are safe and that you are taking precautions. If you are going to choose to

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use drugs, this is not what I would ever choose for you. Here are the things that you need to know.

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Here are the consequences of that. And you're allowed to set boundaries. If I'm going to support

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you financially, if you were going to live in my home, these things will not happen in my home.

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As long as they're 18.

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Right, yes.

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You can't kick them out before that.

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That's true. That is true.

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You can put them in programs.

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You can put them in programs. And there are privileges that are often recently,

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or more recently, you're seen as rights. They don't have a right to a phone. That is a privilege.

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They don't have a right to a vehicle. That is a privilege. It may feel like a punishment to you

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to take away the car keys for a while because now you're back to show her.

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Ah, yes. Living with the consequences of the consequences you impose can be really painful

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to the parent. Yes, it can.

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So let me take one last little jump here. It's been kind of surprising to me, but not at the

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same time, that an awful lot of the prodigals that we're seeing and people are coming to us about

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are not the teenagers anymore. They're not even just in college or something.

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They're the adult children and the choices that they're making, and especially the separation.

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I would imagine you've encountered that some.

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Yeah, absolutely. And that is painful because you even feel as a parent a greater sense

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of a lack of control or power.

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And you do not have control anymore.

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You do not. You do not.

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So how do you still love them if they won't even let you talk to you?

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Yeah, I mean, you love them from a distance. You offer, obviously you pray for them, but also

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offer conversations, offer opportunities for repair. I would love to sit and hear how I've hurt you.

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Now, it's really important that you do your own work around that. It is hard to have someone

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share with you their experience of you if it doesn't feel like it matches

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who you are or how you intended for things to be.

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And so you need to be in a really good, grounded place to have those conversations,

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to be able to hear this was really hurtful without just getting defensive, but just

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acknowledging their experience and apologizing for the hurt.

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Really true.

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Yeah, yes.

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So, well, Casey, any other things you'd like to say to these wonderful families who

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have a lot of pain in their lives and in some cases are in frightening circumstances with their

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kids and others there in beginning steps and in others they don't even get to hear from them

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anymore. So a couple of really strong thoughts on how you keep going and don't let it ruin your life.

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Sure, yes, because so much of our kids' younger years are really consuming for us.

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They are at that.

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It is hard as they grow older to not allow that relationship to take up as much space,

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especially if it's painful because we want it to be different. But what I would say is that

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those younger years again set us up to believe we are the author of their lives,

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but we never were and still aren't. God is the author of their lives, whether they're

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walking with him or not. And so we have to do the hard work of trying to let them go and trust him

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as he writes their story. And maybe we get to see how it all ends, how it all comes together,

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and we get to see this beautiful moment and shift in the relationship. And maybe we don't,

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but we don't get to be in control of that. We just have to trust the Lord with it.

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We do have to.

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To trust the Lord with it, and sometimes we see results rather quickly, and sometimes it's a long

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time. And one of the things that has been important for me is to realize that all of this

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conflict or misunderstandings or whatever isn't just about the relationship between the

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Lord and my prodigal. God is also working in my life, and he will definitely use the conflicts

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there with our children, however strong or minor they are. He uses those because he's still working

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in us. We haven't made it to heaven yet, and so we still have growth in our lives.

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And so we still have growing to do, things to learn, open hands to maintain. And so God gives

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us the gift of a prodigal. I'm sure most of them don't like to even think that, but I will say that

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my prodigal, 15 hard years we had with him, he was a gift to me. I learned so much about trusting God

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and how to receive his love and how to love someone without controlling them,

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among a few hundred other things I learned, but those were pretty important ones. And so even

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for our listeners to say, well, Lord, what are you trying to teach me here in this process,

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this painful relationship? And see what God does, and get your eyes almost, get them off of the

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conflict over here and say, I still have growing to do. And asking God to reveal to you the work

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that he's doing in your life. So I don't know if you had any thoughts on that.

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Yes, I love that. I feel like there's nothing to add to that, Judy. You spoke it beautifully.

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I know we need to kind of finish it out, but I also want to circle back to something that is

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taking us in a totally different direction. But just sitting with you, I'm remembering,

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like going back to the question you asked about what memories I have of that year with you.

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But I think when I think back on that year with you, the things that actually stand out

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are times when we were at home. I remember you made the first like real scallops I'd ever had

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in some kind of like Thai sauce. And we had dinner, it was like a special dinner we had together.

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And like just sitting at dinner with you and Michelle and Steve, and you know, you and Michelle

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having these sort of intense conversations, and then Steve having this goofy commentary off to

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the side and like cutting his eyes at me to see if I heard. And there was one night in particular

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that Michelle and Steve and I were all kind of late talking and then it was like,

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Steve was getting ready to go upstairs and started singing the good night song from the Sound of Music

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and was just like, yeah, you're on the chin. Singing that song and I think just getting to be

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part of your family that year was just a gift. And that stands out to me more than our trips.

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Well, that is very encouraging and the gift went both ways, I assure you. So yeah, everything in

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our relationships, there are gifts to be had. And I think that's a really positive perspective.

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And God is the one who can unveil, let us see the gifts that He's given us.

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And I will tell you this, Josh is in the hospital right now. He apparently has some

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dermatological infection and it required some surgery and it doesn't go away easily,

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it keeps coming back. And so he and I, I was there with him yesterday at the hospital for

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about five hours, just the two of us, except when medical people came in. But we had some of the

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best conversation we've ever had. We were uninterrupted basically by things I needed to do

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or things he needed to do or whatever. And sweet time talking about his life, his family,

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his family, the Lord and where that is. And I'm just thinking that could all have not been possible

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if we hadn't let God do His work in Josh and in us. And so I'm really grateful for that.

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And when you in your ministry, your work are able to help parents see that kind of possibility,

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yes, it's hard now. One of the things we did with Josh to try and help him make better choices was

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have a tour of the jail. They do that at our jail here and I probably in many others. So he and his

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best friend who were not making good choices had a tour and they came back and they said,

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well, that didn't scare us since that's what you wanted. And I went, okay, at least now you know

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some realities. And so anyway.

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Going back to the idea of making sure they understand the consequences of their choices.

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Well, we do need that is a responsibility and it's not a control. It's an understanding of

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consequences that they are inviting with some of their choices. So Casey, thank you. I'm so glad

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to get to be with you and so glad for my listeners to learn from you. So let me say this to our

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listeners. Be sure to check out the show notes for some helpful resources. We'll post some there.

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And we'd love it if you'd subscribe to the podcast or say you liked it. But most important, what it

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God say to you or what stood out to you as an action that you could take and remember to do it.

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I know how easily I forget things and it's like, what was I going to do? Well, that's kind of

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every day now. And so I'd really encourage you to do that as well. God bless you.