Rebellion, Trauma, Mental Illness: Interview with Michelle Essary (episode 31)

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You are going to get such great help today as we talk with Michelle Essary, a mental health counselor,

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who's going to give us insight on why these kids do what they do and how to help them.

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Do you love a prodigal? Do you feel like you are lost in a scary and endless wilderness?

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Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I am Judy Douglass, and I spent more than 15 years in that wilderness.

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I believe together we will discover help and hope for your journey.

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Did you listen to my conversation with my daughter Michelle about the family and being a sibling of a prodigal?

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I hope it blessed you and helped you and just gave you some insights as well as permission to not beat yourself up.

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I think you're going to enjoy today as Michelle and I continue to talk.

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We're going to be talking about, from her professional perspective, some things about why kids or people make some of the choices they do,

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about trauma in their life and various mental illness things, and some ways to be helpful for yourself and for your loved one.

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So, Michelle, Michelle Essary, welcome back to When You Love a Prodigal.

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I'm so glad that you're here. Michelle went to Denver Seminary to get her master's degree and then did all of her earning her hours in Denver as well to be a licensed mental health counselor.

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We call it licensed professional counselor in Alabama and Colorado.

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Oh, okay. But it's the same thing. Same thing. All right. You know, that's not the area I run into. No, that's okay.

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They just like us to be very exact. Okay. Okay. So I let me start with this.

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I've told many, many people that you started your counseling ministry when you were 12, that your friends were always coming to you when they were struggling.

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Some of them, one of them lived with us for a while, but that they would say, I can't tell you, even as life went on and you were in college, graduating, they say, Michelle has been such a blessing.

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You just helped me so much. And so when you decided it was time and you wanted to go to get your degree to go into counseling, it didn't surprise me at all.

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And when I was with you while you were about eight months into your education there, and I said, well, how are you feeling about what you're doing and this for your future?

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You said, oh, this was such a, it's been such an affirmation that this is what God's made me for.

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And that you love the opportunity to be able to hear and understand and help people.

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So now that I've kind of told my side of your journey, I would love to hear my listeners, what's your journey been to get you to where you are briefly?

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I mentioned, and we talked a little in the last interview we did about, you know, there's this, and I think this is true for everyone, right?

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There's one part that's a little bit of personality and what God has given you, and then one part that is your environment that helps shape where you end up going.

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And I'd say both of those together, including some of what we've experienced with our own, with a prodigal in the family, had an influence on my, and I said this last time,

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but my ability to see, to empathize, to really care about other people.

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And so as a result, over the years, I think that developed more as I became more stable in who I was and a little less self-focused all the time,

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which is, you know, happens in teenagers or something like that.

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As that began to happen, and I, you know, you know this, but your listeners may not, I worked in ministry myself for years before I moved into counseling.

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And what ended up happening is, as I was progressing kind of in my ministry career, I would hit these places with, with people that I was meeting with,

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and I would feel like I want to be able to go to this deeper place with them, but I do not have the training to do it responsibly, if that makes sense.

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I wanted to care more deeply for them. I wanted to hear about these significant traumatic events, but I didn't feel secure in doing that safely without further training.

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And so eventually I thought, why don't I go get training to do this, if it's what I want to do?

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And so that, that moved me from ministry into a counseling-specific role, and then ended up working, working in counseling for years in Colorado.

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And then now I've, and we'll talk about this maybe at the end, but now I've added also Neurofeedback, which is another tool, and have, when we moved from Colorado to Alabama, have now been in my own practice, and am able to, I guess, meet with people more.

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So more based kind of in this combination of talking and using other modalities to really care for and help people. But I have been, I guess, in counseling for what, 10, 12 years now?

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And so I've been doing it for a good chunk of my adult life, and I'm still very glad that I am doing it, though it has morphed and changed as things tend to over the years.

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So, so have you in your experience, I know your thing says you do families and teenagers and other things, so have you worked much, especially with adolescents and young adults who have been acting out or have addictions or have even gotten into criminal activity?

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Or any of those, I mean, have you done that kind of work before?

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I think adolescents and early adult population has been a large part of what I've worked with. I've worked also with couples and families, which includes, I think, children and adolescents.

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I, before doing Neurofeedback, I didn't do a lot with young children, because the style of therapy that I do is what we would call talk therapy, which is much more interactive.

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And so it requires that there be more capacity for that and not play therapy. So you like 14 and up, and so you get a fair variety of issues related to 13, 14 and up would typically be my population that I've worked with over the years.

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And I've seen a lot of addictions, a lot of acting out, I would say, interestingly, I mean, we call it acting out, but dealing with major issues and events, maybe would be how I would say it more than even just acting out, like dealing with big things, dealing with perhaps

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major mental health issues, perhaps developmental issues, other things like that. I've seen quite a bit over the years.

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So going right where you were, how did these things relate to each other? Because we can either think everything's separate, or everything's all in one big ball, and how do you pull the parts out?

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But trauma, which is often a part place that impacts prodigals or people who have made some not good choices, their own development, personal development, behavior, tendencies or behavior, and mental health I know is a huge issue that often impacts people who have gone in a not great direction.

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How does that relate? What do you do with all that?

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I mean, I feel like this is one of the critical questions to probably address when dealing with mental health and prodigals or prodigals in general.

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It is very difficult to fully segregate the parts of a person, right? Like they're obviously all impacting each other.

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We, as humans, we react very significantly when things are scary or difficult in our lives, which is what we would typically call traumatic experiences, right?

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Things that make us feel unsafe. God's given us this brain to be able to kind of process and protect us in those circumstances, and sometimes to the extreme, right?

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Sometimes to the extreme that it walls off certain parts of us, it separates certain parts of us, you know, like there are some extreme responses to trauma, but basically when we feel unsafe, we have these amazing built-in coping mechanisms to help us to feel safe.

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The downside of that is that then we are not always able to kind of break down those coping mechanisms when we no longer need them for our safety, and they begin to impact our behavior and our patterning and our experience and even how our brain functions for a long time after that.

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So there's this, you have trauma as one piece, you have mental health, biological mental health, some of that is encoded, right, even down to our DNA, our biology is there from the time that we are born, and you know, there are all the scientists in the world who argue nature versus nurture all day long.

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I'm not here to do that, but there is a biological component in our lives, and sometimes there's a biological component passed down generationally related to mental health. We might have tendencies, personality tendencies, biological tendencies towards anxiety or depression or bipolar disorder or things like that, that are important to take into account.

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We also have this huge environmental piece, and what happens to us, and I know I said the bit about trauma, but what happens to us, you know, the more we learn, even all the way, and this is probably getting a little too brain geeky on you or science geeky, which I do on occasion, even all the way down to our DNA, the more we learn, there's the field of epigenetics where the more we learn about genetics, the more we see that even down to a DNA level, things can be activated and deactivated by us.

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And so things even down to how we are as people, but certainly mirroring and how we are interpersonally, all of those things are impacted by what we experience. And so there's, there's this, it is impossible to fully segregate them out. I would throw in there also, and I think for your listeners, it's significant, the spiritual element.

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You can't separate that out either, in my opinion. There's, there's a development there and a view that is developed over time, patterning that develops over time, related to that also. And so all of these things impact not only the biological makeup, how patterns emerge like in somebody's brain, in somebody's biology, body, hormonally, those things, they impact behavior, they impact the way we think about it.

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They impact behavioral patterns. They also impact worldview, how they're coming to a view of the world. So they may have these, these very physical, behavioral, biological components, and then they have this cultural component also.

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I have a friend who works with foster kids and he uses this, what is the, the personal biological component and then what is the cultural component of, of trauma and when you see the world in a certain way, it is really difficult to get outside of that.

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And that worldview is formed at a relatively early age. Can you trust people? Can you not trust people? Am I okay? Am I not okay?

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Are people something that I can have? Like, can I have a deep interpersonal relationship? Can somebody ever love me? Am I, should I be ashamed of who I am or should I, am I capable of doing something?

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You know, like there's a lot, I'm summarizing, but there's a lot of that worldview, like, are people against me? Am I in a cultural minority? Am I in a majority? Do I fit somewhere? Do I not?

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And all of those pieces play an integral role as well. And so when you, when you look at both of these things, it's, it's no wonder we see so many people get into the place that we would probably define by your standards defined as prodigal because there's all of these things at play.

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And there are a few that are just a little out of whack. It can really, it can really be hard to navigate how to progress in that brokenness in a way that makes sense for parents, for kids, for family members.

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You understand. Does that, is that going?

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Yes, some of it, you know, it's not quite right.

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I'll bring it back to practical. Sorry.

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Let's try and get a little specific then. Yeah. Yeah.

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In my audience, there will be many people who have adopted kids.

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Many times they look at our situation and our adoption, and they say, well, that's all because he was so old already when you got him and everything was set and nothing. It's no surprise that he was doing the things he was doing. But, but we adopted a baby.

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And got them when they were first born. And so we shouldn't anticipate these kinds of problems because they've been raised in the safe and loving and spiritual

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environment.

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But then they get older, and they don't understand things like, oh, identity issues.

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And that. So, just, can you talk to that a little bit. I don't even know how to ask the question.

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Anytime there's a major break in what kind of is the, the order of things, it can create that kind of trauma, even as a baby and babies honestly there's a huge variety in people adopting young kids also right there's the baby you get the day that they are

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born.

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And there's a significant trauma. There's an amount of attachment the more research has shown there's an amount of attachment that happens. Initially I mean there's a reason that parents are always talking to their babies in utero because then they come out understanding.

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Their mother's smell they know their mother's voice they know they they know there's a lot that is known about that. And so, to take away what is known and what feels safe, even though it's only at an infant level is a significant trauma, specifically

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when you're more resilient to it versus others but there's a significant trauma and breaking there that needs to be dealt with at some point, it's not the kind of trauma that you would talk about and talk therapy and say, I have this memory of being torn away from my mother

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when I was one day old like people don't have that memory, but they can feel that sense of on safety.

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And so it takes time to figure out what does it look like to address and heal some in that area, even, even if they're adopted. First thing you add to that time in an orphanage or time with foster parents or time in another environment and you're just

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adding traumas I don't I don't want to throw well trauma non stop but you're adding these broken elements right you're adding these breakdowns in what is safe and and what is relationship and attachment look like and, you know, if they are neglected or if they

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aren't cared for because let's say they're in an orphanage and it isn't the capacity for them to be picked up and cared for. We know that that directly impacts brain development interpersonal development, view of self lots of things depending on how long they're in it and so there's a huge amount of

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developmental trauma that happens very early. I mean, I think probably everyone knows just by nature of having had kids, how much development happens in those first three years of life.

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And so there is so much happening.

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We don't develop in our brains again in that capacity until we hit about adolescence.

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And then our brain or prefrontal cortex grows really really rapidly for a little while like we haven't had it grow since we were about three but in those first three years it's just non stop growth and development explosive growth.

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But what's interesting is what's broken in that time encodes, and how we see the world how we see others, how we see ourselves, how we see God, you get where I'm going there, and that brokenness stays with us.

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So, suppose you're talking to somebody who's had this wonderful family relationship and their child's grown up with lots of security and opportunity and connection with the parents and siblings, and then all of a sudden at age 19.

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Maybe they've gone off to college, or they've gone to work or something. They just reject a lot of it or they just make, you know, non wise choice unwise choices and where, where does that.

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How does that happen is that all just.

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They decided to be selfish and focused on themselves or is there something else that could contribute to that.

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That is, I'll say that's a complex thing.

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There are a lot of things at play here. There's this in counseling we call it differentiation, right, there's this stage at which in our lives, we begin to differentiate from our family of origin, so from our, from our family, whether that's an adopted family or biological

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family, it doesn't really matter but there's our family environment is what we know growing up, we get into middle school and high school and we start to.

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I shared this in our last interview even in my own life right that's when you meet other kinds of people that's when you interact with a lot of variety, and you can see, oh, this is what my family does or this is different than what my family does and it broadens

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the range of people that we interact with and we have more opportunity to kind of one identify where am I in this what do I really like about this behavior this behavior like are there patterns that I like in this that I want to replicate or not.

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And we see a lot of what we would call kind of like trying on different aspects of personality life, things like that.

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And then you see them visually right very, very dramatically you'll see people, you know, for a couple months they become really dark and moody and either hair dark colors and wear dark clothes, and then they switch and they are trying something very up and maybe they

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tried doing this other kind of cultural group and then they're the cool kids and then that you know you see.

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You can see it physically with some kids like this trying on maybe year to year maybe every few months, they have this different group of friends that they're trying.

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Most people don't do it that dramatically externally but there's still an element of trying on what does it look like for me to be me. How do I do relationships, how do I, what do I like, what do I not like both practically and interpersonally.

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So, I'm going into a little bit of extra detail here because I think it impacts. Sometimes it will happen in adolescence sometimes later adolescence.

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I just mentioned earlier that's also when the brain is growing a ton. And what's interesting about that is that it's the part of the brain that helps us to see, see things externally.

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And that's what tends to happen. And maybe you remember this in your own life but certainly if you've had teenagers you've seen it, what tends to happen is there's this, this time maybe for about a year or so when all of a sudden you can see the world in a totally new way,

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and nobody else could potentially understand the way that you see the world because it's amazing and new and exciting, even though everybody who's had that part of their brain for 20 3040 years has already considered a lot of.

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16 and you get your brain in the front for the first time and you're like oh my goodness I understand morality and life and things in the world in a way that nobody else could potentially understand and so for parents recognizing that that's happening,

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recognizing that this pattern of differentiation which is really normal and healthy is happening.

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Those things don't always turn out in a healthy way, depending on a number of factors. Sometimes, and I don't want to just get into all of them because I feel like people could start to try and identify what it is that they did right or wrong in this but I want to say,

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there are certainly factors both biological interpersonal maybe family systems factors for why when somebody goes away to college.

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They start making choices that are so so different than their family, and it could be related to what's going on in a family in a family system it could be related to what's going on internally with them biologically maybe they're, they're hitting a point where

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they're going to have a big mental health issue, or it could be trying to figure this out and not doing it very effectively right like there are just so many factors that play into, you know we talked about worldview and biology and mental health and trauma and

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they all play into at that stage specifically.

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And when you have a major mental health issue for example it starts to develop around that same time often, you'll see bipolar emerge between 16 and 19 a lot of times maybe into early 20 some of those things and so so so bipolar emerges, it's not something

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that was there, because that's a common diagnosis now. Yeah, and people say are they really, where did this come from.

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There are a lot of things that have an impact, even in mental health disorders bipolar is a good example of a biological based disorder not not as much a behavioral disorder.

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And so, often, as things are changing biologically chemically and somebody's body.

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And as environment is changing we're doing some of this differentiation trying to do these things on your own. Some of these things bipolar, the understand general understanding is the tendency or the inclination is there it's sort of like you could

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have other biological disorders where this might be true right like, let's say somebody has a tendency towards heart disease. So they work in their behavior and their life to to prevent that or they don't and that that can impact, then, the emergence

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of the heart disease or not it doesn't always, but it can. So there are environmental factors that can trigger it.

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A major one is that entrance into adolescence though and so I'm not going to pretend like there's an exact answer there but a lot of times when we see it begin to emerge even though it has been there with their cases where that is not true there's early diagnosis

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of bipolar and in kids and you will often see some of that behavior pretty strongly if it's something that is really present in a younger child.

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But there are a lot of times that some of the major mental health stuff comes up then depression is really common in teenagers is not always chemical. Sometimes it's because of all those changes, new brain differentiation all the things I said a minute ago.

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Bipolar seems to be confusing to people, a lot of times, so that that's helpful.

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Okay.

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So, say one of my listeners comes knocking on your door.

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He says, our, our 20 year old has is an addiction, and won't talk to us, or if he does he yells and screams and tells us how terrible we are.

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What, where would you start to figure out. All right, what are we really dealing with here and how can we help this family, because that's your business is helping people.

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I think, probably the most critical thing to do on the front end is, well first of all I'll say as a counselor my client would be the people who come in the door.

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It's not necessarily the prodigal, and it is really difficult.

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It would be really difficult to even imagine. And I think this is one of the things that I'm going to speak to that question but let me, I want to speak to something else that you just kind of brought up by proxy here a little bit but there's this feeling as parents,

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especially as parents of a prodigal but even I mean we were talking about adoption earlier, where, and even something you said in the last time we spoke the last interview about this like responsibility to save them.

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Right. We have this weight of responsibility to save them and it can, it can turn a little too much and become a savior complex in some ways right like I'm adopting them out of this place to save them.

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I'm doing the things to save them I am going to do everything I can to change the situation so that they will be able to be changed so that they will be saved, and there is a weight of responsibility there I'm not saying that we don't need to have some responsibility

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for our family and do what we can, but there's a there's a line there and being able to measure where that line is is maybe one of the most important things that a parent of a prodigal can do is to be able to say, this is what is mine and this is what is not mine.

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This is what I have any say or power over.

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And the things that fit in that category, often are.

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I have same power over my own mental health. I have say empower over my own boundaries and what I am willing to do and I'm willing to do. I have same power over offering this amount of help to the prodigal.

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I do not on the flip side, have any say or any power over whether or not they choose to change.

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I do not have the power to change them, I do not have the power to make the situation different in a radical way without their engagement in it.

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It's kind of, and I may have said this if you're listeners.

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I've said this at different times.

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But I think even from a very young age, right, we could worry about all the things there is this tendency to want to control all the things in the environment to protect from this fear that we have and, and in a situation like addictions.

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The fear is that they might die.

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There's a very real tangible fear, right, like they are not caring for their bodies, they're not caring for their life. I'm afraid for their life. I'm afraid for their impact on other people, I'm afraid, you know, like there's a lot.

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I mean you have your own pain in it but there's this fear of this very real thing that might happen you know, and, and so, to be aware that that is a very real fear.

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But there are no, there's, there's no limit to the things you could try to protect yourself from that fear.

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And you could burn yourself out trying.

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Right, we only have so much that is within our hands and the rest is outside of it.

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Personally over the years I have found it really helpful to one to define what my boundaries are in a situation, both for myself and for others, you don't actually have to express it to your prodigal you don't have to say hey here's my boundary, you can

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just live it out.

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And that's adequate you don't have to have a major emotional conversation about it.

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That's true with anybody in my case, you don't have to express your boundaries to them, you can just live them out and that's that's adequate.

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That said there's, you know, an example would be.

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And this is a more personal example. I, when I was newly a mother, I co led a group or a little group for couples who have were dealing with infant loss.

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And, and you can see how that might, there might be some correlation there.

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And so had I, I would leave that group and I started to create a pattern for myself and the pattern that are created was on the way home I would allow myself to feel the feelings I would cry, I would, I would experience those, you know, I've

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been sitting with people hearing the worst stories of the worst stories, and then the stories that other people had told them of the worst stories, basically, a million ways your child could die.

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And then I'm going home to my own infant, and I'm trying not to take this with me and so I would let myself feel the emotion and be sad and be in grief with them and be sad.

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And then at a certain point in my drive home, I would turn on music, or I would begin to pray, and I was very intentional to switch gears to.

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This is what I have control over and this is what I don't and the rest I need to give to the Lord, and then I would go home and I would hold my child, or I would nurse my child I would spend that moment and I would just thank the Lord for what I did have.

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I do have control over whether or not I put them in a safe bed, I have control over whether or not I'm adequately watching them. I have control over whether or not I have people watch them that I trust.

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But I don't have every moment of every day my eyes on them I don't have. I couldn't right, I have to take a shower I have to sleep I have to have to do those things.

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And I, I cannot prevent every single possible thing that could go wrong and if I spent my time worrying about all those possibilities, I would lose my experience of life.

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I would lose my ability to experience the life that I did have so I know that's not an example of addictions but I think it's a very similar experience, even if you have an adult child dealing with addictions, you cannot control everything and especially

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as an adult they have so much ability to choose.

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And if their choices are completely determined by their addiction for a time, you can choose to create an opportunity for safety you can choose to create an opportunity for help.

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You can choose to do those things but I'd say the number one thing to focus on and coming back to, they would be my client is their own boundaries their own self care.

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If you are not the healthy version of you, you will not be able to love another person well. And that's true of all boundaries, I think we, we lose sight of the fact that boundaries are for ourselves not for others.

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We have boundaries so that we can be the healthiest version of us so that we can love those difficult people well. And we cannot love them well if we are burnout spent exhausted anxious, all the time because we're trying to over control the situation

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that we are not meant to be. Now, why don't you kind of shift a little and tell about the new thing that you're doing the neurofeedback and and why and, and how that's a tool and I started doing neurofeedback a few years ago, I realized, you know, as a counselor

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we have to do continuing ed and I realized I was doing all my continuing education and neuroscience. So, became a bit I've always been a bit of a geek a science geek, let's be honest but I was really enjoying that and so I stepped out into the opportunity

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to practice that in a way that I could at my education level with something that was was being proven to be very helpful and so I stepped into using neurofeedback, it is, it is one of the many tools that are out there, but it's the one that I really was drawn to

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and I've seen a lot of research and have seen have had the opportunity then to use and see benefit with. And it uses EEG technology so which stands for electroencephalogram, so you can think like electrocardiogram but for your brain.

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You're looking at electrical activity from the surface of the scalp using sensors, and then you offer real time feedback with audio and visual rewards and what I do there are different kinds of neurofeedback but the goal is that you can address things

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at a biological level in a rather non invasive and gentle training format.

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So it's very similar to, to exercise but you're doing it with your brain we call it brain training right. You are practicing new patterns to try and adjust from patterns that are not being helpful or causing uncomfortable symptoms.

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The end goal is to create a more balanced nervous system so we see it helping lots of things.

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We see it in sleep, and anxiety, depression, a number of other things I feel like I could go into it but does that give an adequate, I guess, explanation, what what age range are you talking about that you do this with.

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I use neurofeedback with anyone from about six to 96 I mean obviously that's a random high age but basically anybody who can sit still well enough to get an initial picture or map of what's happening electrically in their brain.

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I work from, from kids as young as six to adults, really into whatever age that we're able to still see some positive gains by doing neuro biofeedback so anytime that we would stimulate the brain obviously kids respond more quickly, because their brain

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is still exploding with new neurons all the time a little more quickly than as we age, but they have to be able to sit still well enough to do the initial mapping or the initial picture of what's happening in their brain.

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And the other thing I was going to say is we have enough research now we can, we can see basically with comparative research, if this is what's happening at the surface.

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They've compared it to fmri so much that we have a really clear picture for the most part of what must be happening underneath the surface so it gives us a really pretty, pretty great non invasive way of seeing some of the major brain activity, which is great.

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So when you think of my audience. Yeah. How might that be something that a tool that would be useful for them for a prodigal that they had that was cooperative or younger that they could bring or older who was willing because they wanted help.

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I know there are different practices function slightly differently but if you found somebody using neurofeedback for mental health.

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Some of the major issues that we treat would be, like I said, ADHD, some developmental disorders, people will come in, even I have worked with kids and adults with different developmental disorders even chromosomal disorders like Down syndrome.

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Obviously we're not going to change somebody's chromosome with brain training but we can reduce symptom.

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You know I I'll use a specific example.

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One 13 year old I worked with she came in and was having difficulty sleeping and was not verbally communicating very well.

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And we were able to help improve those things which for quality of life for family was really significant.

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And there is some specific neurofeedback that is used in cases of addiction that has had a really great outcomes like improving long term reduction of addiction behavior, close to 80% versus control groups which is science words for.

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They lasted longer not doing drugs and using alcohol than the people who did counseling alone.

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But it is, you know, anytime you're dealing with something like this like we're talking about reducing symptoms helping the brain function a little better people would still have to do some work on the behavioral change but really one of the major benefits of a tool

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like this is, is we can, we can help the biology, get out of the way a little bit, so that somebody who wants to choose to make behavioral change has a greater potential of seeing success there.

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So, in, in our audience one of the most common things is that there have been, you know, usually teens or young adults who have addictions, and they do want to get out of it, and they go to rehab and they get better, but then they relapse, and, and they get in

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a pattern sometime of recovery relapse recovery relapse Is this something that could be helpful in that.

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Well, it is. So it's an alternative right it's another tool. There are some other specific therapies I think that that are also could be helpful. But as you think of what are other things I can try.

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Obviously I got into this because I believe in it being it help people.

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But it, it can be another tool something else that could change things significantly on a, on a biological level it's really interesting, you know in counseling we're looking at behavioral stuff we're looking at what people are doing, and we're making diagnosis

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based on this and this and this is what they do and that fits in this category so we're going to say that they are this diagnosis with neurofeedback and with EEG we're looking at what is the brain activity, and we're able to say okay, we're going to hopefully

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change some of this brain activity and see if it can change some of these behaviors or it can at least reduce these symptoms enough that somebody could change behavior if somebody really wants to change.

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And, and they come in and do let's say a full series of treatments with neurofeedback. It could help them make the choices to avoid the addiction.

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There's been research that has been specific to addictions specific protocols that combined counseling and neurofeedback that has greatly reduced people's even desire to use substances, because their brain is functioning more adequately, they no longer need to

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use these substances to help balance and create a different experience, a different homeostasis to give them. I'm not going to get into all the science but to give them the same feelings.

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They don't, they no longer need to do the same thing, because their brain is more balanced without them they're not self medicating to deal with their trauma to deal with their biological or mental health disorders, because they've been able to change some of the patterning

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at a biological level. That's fascinating and awesome.

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I hope that it could be a tool that would like could help some of the people who are listening.

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I think what I would love to come up with with this is, is you think again of this audience of people who, who love a prodigal, some of them, they have no influence over, because they're adults when they might be not a child even who's grown up, but a parent

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or a sibling or something, but they still care about them. And then you have some you still have some, some control and some significant influence in their lives so if speaking to them and you're, you're saying how can you do what are some few things that you

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that could be helpful and moving your relationship or their life choices or the, what the future could look like in a good direction.

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I will start by saying again what I said a little earlier which is taking care of yourself is the best first step to helping somebody else.

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And I don't mean that I think we can lose ourselves and trying to help another person and lose. What does it look like and that isn't an excuse for selfishness I think we can, we can swing the pendulum too far the other way but it is a need to, okay, where, where

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am I in this, and how is what I'm dealing with impacting how I'm dealing with this situation. Am I responding poorly, or in a way that is really not helpful as a result of my own stuff that's going on so working on yourself and and healing from your own

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trauma that is caused by having this other person in your life that creates all this grief and pain and fear and all of these things is probably the best step, which then again, and this is not new I mean, Cloud and Townsend have made how many dollars on the idea of

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boundaries but you are able to with good boundaries and good work on yourself, able to then reach out and love this person in a way that you wouldn't normally be able to and I'd say one of the best things you can do is

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to intentionally show love to them in ways that they can hear and see at least in part in order for you to do that you need to be dealing with your own stuff so that it's not coming off as manipulation, or even when we unintentionally manipulate in

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order to try and help somebody, it is still, you know, it's still our own stuff coming out at them and so being able to love them well being able to be something that feels safe.

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Not that you have to provide everything for them or meet all their needs or enable but to be a safe person to be somebody who loves them for that not to stop.

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You know I just read Tim Keller's prodigal God recently. Have you all, I'm sure that that's a familiar topic but it talks about how differently God sees the world than we do, and how both brothers had different issues and, and God was what was

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different than our worldview and so I just think again going back to that same picture of, we were not going to do this perfectly. You do need to be aware of your own stuff in this, and you need to continue to recognize

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that you, you have this God to provide quite a bit for you in this situation that is different than how we see and deal with change on this earth. We are limited by the brokenness of our surroundings and our world.

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And there is only so much that is inside our control and the rest we have to do kind of like what I did with my little infant son right I had to say okay this is what's within me, and this is God I have to give the rest to you because it is outside of me,

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and I cannot own it, or I will be buried by it.

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Okay, I have one last question.

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You know I have a ministry called prayer for prodigals, and so one of the things that in my book and in the podcast and in this online group that we talked about is praying for them.

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And what we can't do God can do he is able to.

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You know that's a wonderful thing and and I definitely endorse prayer is our bottom line way to help.

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But at the same time sometimes that doesn't work, it doesn't seem because for some reason God, or the person's not listening and cooperating but the other thing is sometimes our faith or our walk with God becomes almost

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a tool to hurt them that we hammer them with.

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And, and since many who would listen to this podcast would have a spiritual perspective.

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Do you have any thoughts on how that can be wonderful, but also how it can be a really hurtful thing. If, if we use our faith in God in a way that's not helpful.

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Does that make sense. Yeah.

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I think, you know, similar to what I kind of the road I started down a minute ago when I said, even our good intentions can be manipulative. When we are grasping at things to try and change our circumstance, it can even the really good things can begin to be

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harmful.

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For example, if we are anything we are using to try and change the person out of our behavior, even if it's spiritual things even if it's, you know, like I'm sending you Bible verses, because I want you to change and I'm hoping that when you read this, it will

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change your opinion on something. If you are, if you are sending it out of, I really enjoyed this, I really appreciate this it was meaningful to me I want to share it with you.

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So I think there's a difference there versus I really want this to change you.

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There can also be this unrealistic expectation that they behave in a way that is different than the place they are in. Right.

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I'm trying to think of how to say this in an appropriate way. It can begin to push them further away from God, if they feel like God, your representation of God to them is never going to accept them, or is going to like if they continue to fall short,

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eventually they're going to wear out and not want to have anything to do with that potentially and.

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And what is a really good thing in prayer can really push them away. Am I answering the question or what you are, you are, it's, it's a tricky topic and one of the things that I have emphasized often is the need this one of your top priorities, maybe your

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top priority is to not lose relationship with them. Yeah. And so why don't we end with that if you have any thoughts on how to maintain relationship in a way that you, you're not controlling, you're just relating your, and you're loving and you're caring about

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them in a way that that feels that way to them as opposed to feels like you're trying to control them it last thoughts on that.

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You know I think sometimes it's helpful when we simplify things a little bit and we think back to what do we do when we want to get to know people in general, what do we do when we want to build healthy relationships and take it out of the picture of the

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minute, because there's so much else going on there, and think, what do I do when I want to get to know someone, what do I do when I started dating my spouse when I met a new friend when I you know like what did I do to get to know that person I ask about what

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their daily lives are I interact with them on a regular basis right like we tend to be friends with people who are convenient so if there's an opportunity for interaction somewhat regularly that's helpful.

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But even just those small things. When I work with couples for example, I'll have them share just a little bit about their day with each other and it doesn't have to be emotionally significant, it doesn't have to be deep or meaningful, but just those moments

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of it's what we call building the bricks of trust right like being honest with each other about simple thing can build that that foundation to the point of trusting each other, and then trying out something a little more significant here and there,

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but it, it is a really difficult thing in a relationship with a prodigal to move to. What does it look like for this to be a little more mutual and that that would be necessary as with an adult product well I think is what you're asking, really.

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But with a team even still those small moments of finding those moments to connect finding those moments to care about them to show you care about them.

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Not at all about their behavior but just to get to know them to love them as they are to celebrate who they are, you know, often as parents, you will know who the core and beautiful person is and sometimes you have an expectation that they be something that

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they're not but you still love them.

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I tell my kids all the time I'm like, man I love that I get to know you all, I love that I get to know you as you are and your personalities and I get to experience with you as you figure out you know like those things are exciting, and to not lose sight of

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when you get to know a new friend when you get to know a new person in your life you get to experience that you get to.

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You get to explore with them what does that look like and those small instances. And there's a researcher in relationships who talks about in relationships, those big moments mean a lot less than the small things building up over time.

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And so just continuing to have those small moments of connection, even if they feel really insignificant. Those things build up into a firm foundation of trust, which then could lead to opening doors.

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Well thank you so much, Michelle Essary.

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You can find information about Michelle in the notes on the podcast.

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All right, Father, thank you. Thank you for Michelle's willingness to take time and share from her experience and opportunities and the way that she understands how people work and what's going on inside them in many different aspects and give us some input and some

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insight on how we relate well to people we love who are maybe not making the best choices or who have turned their back on not only you Lord but on us and thank you that also for some specific ways that we can maintain that relationship but that we can look for ways to help them.

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And that's appropriate and certainly Lord we can always pray and you are always working, and I love that that's true. You're always working.

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Thank you so much for this opportunity I pray that everyone who was listening, gain something that they can apply in the life of with a life of relationship with the prodigal right now.

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So, thank you, Lord. In Jesus name. Amen.

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Thank you, God bless you every one of you.

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Thank you for joining me today on the when you love a product or podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe rate and review the show on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen.

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It also helps the show reach more people with the hope and encouragement of Jesus. Don't forget, take a look at the show notes. And for more helpful information, resources and books, check out judydouglass.com.

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That's Douglass with two S's.

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You can find me on Facebook and on Twitter and Instagram at Judy Douglass for one seven.

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Next week.