Secrets for Holding on to Rest, Hope and Relationship: Interview with Gem and Alan Fadling (episode 21)

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Do you love a prodigal? Do you feel like you are lost in a scary and endless wilderness?

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Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I am Judy Douglass and I spent more than 15

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years in that wilderness. I believe together we will discover help and hope for your journey.

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Welcome, welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. Alan and Gem, that's spelled G-E-M

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because she's such a treasure. Alan and Gem Fadling. And I am so excited to have them here.

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They, I met them, I don't know, was it four years ago or something that you came and did a seminar,

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a seminar for my team and they still talk about it because you bless them so and they learn so

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much from it. And so as I thought, who could bless the people who listened to my podcast? Well,

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I think that Alan and Gem could do that. So why don't you start off just giving us a little

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picture of how you got started on the topic of unhurried living. Just before you do that,

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I was noticing that at the beginning of the lockdown, I was ready. I said, good,

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I'll get all those rooms cleaned out. My kids are all gone. I'll get all that done and I'll

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read all the stack of books. It didn't happen. In fact, the mess got worse because we were doing

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everything at home and the books, well, a few I got done, but not very many. And so I found myself

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saying, all right, how do I get a little better control of my life and not always feel so pressured?

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And then I said, I know Alan and Gem talk about this. And so your main, your ministry is unhurried

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living. And you have two books, Alan, Unhurried Life and Unhurried Leader. Is there another one

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coming? That's correct. Actually, I am working right now on a book that will eventually be titled

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Unhurried Daily Reflections. It'll be a one-year reader, but that's a little ways down the road.

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Yeah. Okay. And Gem, tell us about your book that's out and your book that's coming.

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Well, yeah, we wrote a book together called What Does Your Soul Love? And it's eight questions

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that reveal God's work in you. So, we're both spiritual directors and we believe in the power

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of a good question. And so we've already… I agree with that.

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We've tackled some light subjects like resistance and fear and control and vulnerability,

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but really it's an invitation to ask a good question and then sink down into that into your

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own life. And then my second book, I just turned in my first draft. It's going to be for women

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and it's about managing your thoughts and narratives.

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Well, let me ask you a question. Lots of other people are just where I've been, especially after

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this lockdown and all of a sudden it's opening up, at least in Florida where I live it is, maybe not

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in California as much where you live, but people are getting out and they're doing things and going

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places and they look back and said, I didn't get anything done. And like I've said, but they're

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still thinking, wait, wait, it was nice having some downtime, some peaceful time. How do I get that?

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Because in our nation and our world today with technology, especially everything is so fast and

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all over the place. And I know that you've heard and I'm sure that many of my listeners have heard

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that there's a great saying by Dallas Willard that has been out. And he says, what's the most

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important thing you can do for your life? You can eliminate, ruthlessly eliminate all hurry.

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And so we're not doing so well at that. So how did we get to this place of hurriedness, of rush,

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of so much going on in our life? And then begin to tell us a little about how you got into this topic.

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Yeah, I love that piece of spiritual council that Dallas offers ruthlessly. You must ruthlessly

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eliminate hurry from your life. I remember the first time I heard it, I thought that sounds

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impossible. That sounds really, really hard. But the longer I've lived with that sentence,

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the more I've thought that really is an absolutely strategic invitation that I think actually Jesus

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is extending to us. I think Jesus is the most beautifully unhurried person in the universe.

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And I think he invites us to follow his unhurried way. So how do we get here? Golly, that could be

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a podcast or two all by itself. Technology in part has accelerated our lives. The promise was

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it would save us time. You can get a big job done in a little time. But what happens though is

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the one job that you get done in a little time becomes six jobs that you do in the same amount

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of time. And so there's this gradual acceleration of our experience. So that's one way we got there.

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A second thing I want to say is that this is more general. This is just human, not necessarily

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modern times. But one of the reasons we get so hurried is how we define our lives. We think that

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we are the stuff we do. We think we are the things we possess. We think we are all the stuff people

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say about us. And if we believe that, then do more, get more, impress more people becomes our mode of

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operation. And that is a recipe for hurry. That's really true. That's really true. Well, as you think

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about my audience, people who have a prodigal, somebody in their life who's making destructive

55
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choices, maybe rebellion, maybe just so wounded that they are acting out trying to handle their

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pain. Maybe it's mental illness. And certainly all of that has been increased with the pandemic

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that the people don't know how to handle themselves. And families don't know how to care for their

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families. So how do you see that this becomes an important topic then for the lovers of prodigals,

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which is what I like to call them? That's beautiful. So I think the first thing that might be useful to

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say is when we talk about an unturried life, we're not talking about some idyllic oasis life.

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Trouble free experience where we sit around on Lazy Boys and read our favorite book all day.

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Sounds good. It wouldn't be a terrible thing for a vacation. But when we talk about

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unhurried, we're not so much talking about the stuff going on around us. We're not even really

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talking about the things on our calendar or the things on our to do list. What we're talking about

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is the quality of our soul. Like that is where unhurry takes shape in us. And the good news

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about that is our souls can learn to be unhurried in hard situations, in difficult relationships,

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like relationship with a beloved prodigal. We can learn that the Lord is our shepherd and can

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shepherd us through hard places and in difficult relationships. And so when we talk about unhurried,

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we're talking about learning from Jesus how to live his restful and unhurried way in the midst of

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our actual life as we find it right now with all of its challenges, with all of its pains,

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with all of its losses. That to me is a realistic vision of what unhurried could be. It's maybe

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another way of just saying what Jesus said when he said, are you burdened? Is your life heavy? Come

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to me. Come to me and you will find rest for your soul. That's the spirit of what we mean to say by

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unhurried. So Gem, were you just dragged along into this or did you come willingly?

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I was not. She's better at unhurried than I am, I'll tell you that much.

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I don't know about that. Well, that's, I don't know if it, is it a coincidence?

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I was going to, I thought I would ask it the way I did then.

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Yeah, no, actually this was, fortunately for us, it was an invitation that was extended to both of

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us at the exact same time. We mark, I know we mark a point, we call about 1990, is the year

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where we met these people and they introduced us to this way of thinking, this sort of,

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well, we were introduced to solitude and silence actually. That was a big part of it.

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And we were both at the same workshop with the same invitations and we both just grabbed on at

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the same time. So even though Alan wrote the book, this is really a journey we've both been on

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together and in our own personal lives. Yeah, it may be my book, but it's our story.

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Yeah, that's, oh, that's a good way to say it. It's our lives.

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It's our lives. Yeah. So how, yeah. So how would you say to listeners,

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how do you begin to do this? What are the first steps? How do you cultivate a different perspective

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on life that lets it not feel so out of control? Yeah, I think one thing that people can check in

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with themselves is sort of the classic question is, do you want this? Do you want to change? Do

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you want, even though everything might be spinning around out here, do you welcome a change inside?

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So if the answer to that is yes, then you can begin to make progress on some relatively easy

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steps. If you're open, you could just start then noticing when you are triggered or when something

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is going on, sort of taking one step back as soon as you catch yourself. Cause we both understand

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that life is hard and when something's going on that's traumatic or triggering, we're not in,

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we're not in our best frame of mind. So of course there's the initial reactions and responses and

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angers or whatever there is, but at some point in that process, you can catch yourself and go,

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okay, this is going on and yet I have a good shepherd and yet I have been told that there is

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this light and easy yoke, right? I have been told that there is rest for the weary. So at some point

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in there, if you could grab yourself and bring in those beautiful invitations and then sink into it,

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even for 30 seconds, even for 30 seconds, we'll make a difference. Well, it's better than doing

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it zero seconds. That's true. So you're sure if you have a five minutes or if you have an hour,

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but I'm trying to say if you can just notice, catch yourself, breathe a prayer that comes from

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scripture and let yourself believe it. It's a good first step. A very good first step.

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How many first steps before you began to recognize, I know this is, you can't really say,

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but you began to realize this makes a difference in my life and then I could maybe even do something

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to make it more so. Yeah. So as I was listening to Gem, one of the things that I had to come

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to grips with was I had a way of thinking of my inner hurry as a virtue. Like I am the guy who gets

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stuff done and I am the guy who rises the high standards and I am the guy who will not disappoint

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anybody and I am going to acquire every possible distinction that's available to me. And I had to

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decide whether that was working for me so well or not. And often it was a hard to decide.

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I decided that it got me to some places of accomplishment, but it wasn't working great for

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my soul. The kind of driven, anxious, frustrated, irritated sort of inner life wasn't looking much

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like Jesus. And in the end, I might've been getting a lot of things done, but I wasn't bearing

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great fruit. And actually that was the hope of, that was my great hope. I wanted to live a life

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that bore the kind of fruit that Jesus would invite me to. That felt like what I'd been invited to.

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And so I began, part of my, so what I'm saying this is I had to get a vision for an unhurried life

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as the best possible version of my life. And that hurry, instead of being an asset or a virtue,

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was tending to get in my way of the thing that I said that I most deeply wanted and discovered

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I actually did most deeply want. So first let's stop for just a second and talk about the soul.

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You've talked several times about the best, what's best for your soul. How are you defining that?

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How are you defining that? Soul is a hard thing for people to get a grasp of understanding.

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And so they might be able to apply it better if they have a little better understanding of what

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you're talking about when you say the soul. You know, there are probably any number of definitions

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that I could pull out of the catalog, but I'd rather just sort of talk about it. And so when

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I say soul, I'm kind of talking about the essential me, the whole of me on the inside of me,

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the me that has been made in the image of God, the me that has been redeemed by Jesus,

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the me that is being restored into God's original vision of who he saw I would be and the gifts I

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would bring to the world. So you could say the real me, the essential me, the inner person.

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When Paul prays, I pray that the spirit might strengthen you in the inner person

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so that Christ might dwell in your hearts by faith. That would be sort of the essence of what I mean

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by the language of soul. That's great. Anything else to add to that, Gem? I think that's probably

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what I would have said too. I love the word essence. That's good. I love the word essence.

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I love the idea of the root, the true, the real. I think Dallas Willard, maybe it's not him,

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but someone was talking about the soul being this sort of alive connector. It's connecting

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all the parts of us. It's sort of like a maybe like a membrane or a sinew or something, right?

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It's the, when you were talking about the inner person, it's that part. I don't think I have

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anything to add to what he said is what I'm saying. Okay. So say the parent of a young adult who's out

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of control and they don't even know where they are except that they're probably doing drugs,

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hanging out with wrong people, perhaps doing some crime kinds of things. Those would be fairly

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normal in the parents that I'm connecting with. So what would you say to them? How do I actually

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do this? You told me a very first step, take that breath, let your spirit loose and your soul get

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ministered to, but they're used to first steps and many, many more steps and things that don't work

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over time or they are used to a child or a person in their life that begins to go in a right direction

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and then relapses or turns back. And so these kinds of things are really hard for them to

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look beyond the fact that nothing's under control, nothing's going in a good direction.

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So what can they do to help themselves? They can't always help their loved one

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because they're not ready to be helped, but they can do some things to help themselves. And that's

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what I'd really like to be able to give them is some really specific things for this journey

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that they're on. It's not a quick thing very often, very rarely is it quick. So what are your thoughts?

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Well, so I haven't been on that journey particularly myself, but I have just been through a year that

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was maybe one of the hardest years of my adult life and I turned 60 this year. So I've had a few

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years to have bad experiences or hard experiences or challenging moments or seasons or eras.

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And I think what I would say is in the midst of the stressors of this last year, what I have needed

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is to acknowledge I'm not in control, even though I keep trying to be. It's been good for me

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to remind myself and I've had to do this often daily and sometimes more than daily.

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I have a shepherd and I think by extension the one I love, my beloved prodigal has a shepherd.

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Now that prodigal is resisting the shepherd, wandering from the shepherd,

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but that doesn't change the nature of the shepherd. The shepherd is still so good at what he does

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and I may not be able to see how in the world Jesus is being the good shepherd he says he is

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in the life of my beloved prodigal, but it's a good thing for me to keep remembering that

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what I don't have control of, Jesus fully understands and is very present to. And in

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mysterious ways is at work. That helps me find hope in my own challenging moments. It helps me

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remember what I do and don't have control of. I can pray for the one I love who's wayward.

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Absolutely.

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I can do that and that matters and it makes a difference and it reminds me of the one who cares.

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That has been at least one thing that's been really critical. It's a way of framing my vision

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of reality that right alongside the reality, in this case of a beloved prodigal, I also have

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the undergirding reality of a good shepherd and practicing that reality helps me then navigate

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the pain, the fear, the loss, the frustration, all of the feelings that I feel in a chronic,

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long-term, difficult situation. That's at least one thought that comes to my mind.

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Gem, anything else you'd like to add to that?

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Yeah, so in our book, What is Your Soul of, there's a practice there. It's actually in the

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fear chapter. It's called the practice of unpacking and it really takes that idea of

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cast all your cares on him because he cares for you. And one of the phrases, this is a total

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cliche, but it helps me, especially in relationship to other people, is that I'm a good shepherd.

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I can care for someone without carrying them. Right?

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Well, yes. And that is a tremendous issue with lovers of prodigals.

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Of course.

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Is they're trying to carry them?

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Yes. And so carrying is its own thing. It's loving. Carrying is a weight on you that can

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become unbearable. And I imagine in this situation, it is unbearable. So what does it look like to

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still care, but not carry someone on you like a bag or a weight? And so in the practice of unpacking,

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I just share, if you can get your imagination rolling, that you've got a backpack on your

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shoulders and it's quite heavy, but you imagine yourself taking it off, put it on a table or on

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the floor in front of you, and then you look inside and you see what's there.

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And what do you discover?

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And what do you see? So for the people listening here, I'm imagining you're seeing your prodigal.

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And you can do this with any number of people or issues, but if you're seeing your prodigal in

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there, what would it look like if you just imagine yourself reaching into the backpack,

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taking them out, and then Jesus said, cast all your cares on him because he cares for you.

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Paul said that about what would it look like for you to take your prodigal out and hand them to

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Jesus? So this is carrying, but it's not carrying. And it shows a great deal of trust.

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Absolutely.

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So because I think trust is involved here.

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Yes.

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When we're carrying, I don't know that we're fully embodying the idea of real trust in what God

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can and hopefully will do.

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We think we have to do it. We have to rescue them, make them make the right choices.

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I know by experience. So that's a great concept.

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And I think alongside that, to realize that, and you've really already said this, this is a journey.

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Wouldn't it be nice if you could just put your backpack on the table, pull out the prodigal,

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hand them to Jesus? Now we're all set. Good. Did that.

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Everything changed.

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What's the next thing I'm supposed to do instead of, okay, I think I just put them back in my

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backpack about 10 minutes later. So I'm going to do that again. And I'm just going to learn to make

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that a way of life for myself, that I will keep releasing my carrying into the care of Jesus.

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And I will learn little by little, maybe not to keep carrying. Maybe I can learn over time how

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to do that. And I think you can.

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Oh, I think you can too. But I think that's just wonderful practice. And that's what it's going to

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take is things that you practice and do over and over to be able. So you talked about that concept

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of dealing with fear. For example, you said that in your fear chapter, what's another one of the

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topics in your soul book that would be helpful?

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Yeah. Well, I think this is a word you already said earlier, which is control. We have a chapter

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on control. And in there, actually, I share a story of where I got a little too medley with

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a couple of friends. And I think that's the chapter I shared that in anyway. I just learned the hard

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way. And we all know this. And what I'm going to say, you're going to go, of course, I cannot

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control other people. We all know that, but we keep trying. And at some point in the process,

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it's all a process, as you said, of practicing. But at some point, it's got to soak in a little

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bit deeper to where we actually believe that. And when you can really believe that I cannot

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control the other person and you can take your hands off just for a bit.

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But that's so scary. What are they going to do?

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Yeah. So there's something here about, I think as well, kind of the inherent dignity of a human

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being. Absolutely. That they get to choose what they think, what they do, how they behave.

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And we may absolutely disagree. But there is a reality of they get to choose. And this one's

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the hardest because being out of control, I think no one likes that.

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So you're talking to your 14-year-old, which is when ours really got out of control. How do

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you help them at that age when you have responsibility for them still to not control,

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but help them learn to make better choices and learn to better choices for life in general,

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but for themselves and see what they're looking at. What do they want for their future? I know

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they don't at 14 think very much about that. Right. Probably not. Yeah. Well, this is muddier

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than kind of what I was sharing about because I was thinking more of like, you know, other adults.

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So if you've got a child, this is a different story. Under age, there is a responsibility here,

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of course, to help guide. But I'm wondering if we can bring in the idea of questions again.

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I think you could. That's good. And so I don't know how bad off this 14-year-old is, how rebellious

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they are, how much they listen or not. But what would it look like if you asked questions instead

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of giving directives so that they might be able to stumble upon the very thing you're hoping for,

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but maybe they can stumble on it themselves because they're thinking. I love that. What kind

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of questions? Oh, goodness. Help me out, Ellen. Well, so I still think the questions that we offer

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in this book are good for any age. And you get a different kind of answer probably from a 14-year-old,

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but you could ask, what is it you're looking for here? What do you want? That's excellent.

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You know, and if they say, you know, they want something and their first answer is probably not

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the real want. And probably their fifth answer isn't even the real one. But if you keep, well,

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tell me more about that. What else do you want? And if you can get down a few layers, you might

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start hearing what's actually happening in their heart. And then you'd have something to work with.

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You would know how to pray. You would know how to care. But all of that, this is where Unhurried

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comes in too, because you have to be patient enough to ask a question, wait for the answer,

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listen, and ask more questions. This is long and it takes time. But it's beautiful because the

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tendency in your frustration and fear when you're working with a prodigal is you come in with

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accusations or you come in with demands. Fix it. So it's either you're this bad in some way,

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or you have to be this. And you're talking about a way to engage them in conversation

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with a gentleness as opposed to a toughness and a fierceness in their attitudes. And yet, help them

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begin to think as opposed to you're telling them how to think. I love it.

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Yeah. And I think the challenge that we have to lean into is nobody likes to be controlled.

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Right.

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And we don't have to think very far to think, I don't like being controlled. I don't like being

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controlled. I don't like when other people use their words in a way to try and manipulate me in

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the direction they want me to go. I don't like it when someone else tried to force my hand.

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The challenge, of course, is in the end, the control doesn't bear really good fruit because

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what you're dealing with is a young person here with a will who's going to make choices.

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If you force them into choices, don't take them...

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Now that starts at around two.

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Yeah, it starts a lot earlier than 14. And so always...

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Go ahead. If you force them to make choices.

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Yeah. They may do it because they have to, but eventually they won't. What you're trying to do

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is shape their will in the direction of good. You can't force that. You can't manipulate that

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because goodness doesn't come out of those sorts of initiatives. But like Gem said, asking questions

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loving questions, being genuinely curious, wanting to know what's happening inside of your

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son or your daughter, that's a loving response.

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One that can make a huge difference because you do help them to think. And if you don't assume

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that their first or second or third answer is still the reality, but you don't tell them you're

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wrong, you just say, well, just like you said, tell me more. Let's go a little further with that. Or

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Josh McDowell loved to set up situations and ask his kids, what would you do in this? Or what would

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you think about this? And that helped them to think about it. And so asking questions is a great way

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to do this. What are any more things you would say in depth or briefly that would be really helpful?

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I just want to help these prodigal lovers have a clue how they can find a little more peace for

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themselves while finding, helping their loved ones find peace. And again, some of them are young and

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you have some authority in their life. Control doesn't usually work very well though. But some

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of them are adults. So a funny story, yesterday, my assistant for 21 years, his daughter is young

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and trying to be a photographer. So I needed some more headshots for my podcast promos and stuff.

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And so I asked her to take them. Well, her mom came with her because we're all very close. And

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so everything that Crystal wanted to do, her mom had a thought on it and how to do it. And don't

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you think you want to do this? And I said, it's really nice your mom comes as your assistant.

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But that's the way we do it. We aren't as outward in our control a lot of times. Manipulative, yes,

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as you said. But we still are trying to, but yet that doesn't work. I've learned not to do that

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with my adult children. I had to learn not to do it with my sons-in-law. It's like, no, Judy,

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you really don't get to say anything. You just tell them how wonderful they are and you love them.

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So any other thoughts on how you would deal with people that are older, that are adults that are

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on their own, and yet you still would like to help them be encouraged toward a better choice,

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better choices in their life. So I have a couple of things here that I wanted to share. One was,

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I wanted to share just a small handful of other questions to circle back a little bit.

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Please do. Other questions you can ask. So the one question we threw out was, what do you want here?

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What are you looking for? You can also ask them, what are you afraid of? And what are you hiding

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from? Or what are you clinging to? I mean, these are the questions from the book. They're very

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potent, but again, you'll get a surface question. But here's the question that you ask after you've

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asked the question that gets you deeper in. And it's the acronym AWE, AW. You can ask this as

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many times as you need, and it's just, and what else? And what else? What are you afraid of? And

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you listen. Well, and what else? And let them talk and let them unpack. So I just wanted to go back

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to that idea of asking questions again and offer a few more. The other thing about the prodigal

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lovers is, I think some of the deep work is actually working with your own fears.

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And you've probably talked with them about this already, but maybe I'm just underscoring it.

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Please do. I think it's very important for us to be as self-aware as we possibly can be. And so,

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and control and fear are usually at the base of most of the things that are happening up here on

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the surface, anything we're saying or doing. If it's not helpful to us or to other people,

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if you track it down, down here you'll find some issue of probably fear. I'm afraid of this. So if

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we can become aware of those things and bring them to prayer, take them to a counselor, a trusted

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friend, a pastor, and work through your own fears. Some of the control can then be released,

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because I think control happens because we want to manage this fear that we have,

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and we think we're going to do it by managing the person.

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Really true. So does that make sense?

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Oh, absolutely makes sense. It does. I love it. And it seems to me also that

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this, well, it's not coming out right. So go ahead. I'll let you talk.

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Well, so the other thought maybe just to piggyback on what Gem has said is,

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and this is sort of maybe essential, and that is we often operate on the assumption

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that someone else must change for my life to get better. Whether it's my spouse needs to change,

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my child needs to change, my coworker needs to change, only then will my life get better.

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That's a very precarious place to live, because suddenly now they have complete control

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of your well-being. That's really true.

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That's really true. And what I love about the genius of Jesus

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and the genius of the Scriptures is all of it is designed to help us find well-being and rest

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and security not out there somewhere in a solved problem or a repentant prodigal.

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But the well-being is something I find in relationship with God with me. And that

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well-being, that restfulness can be mine regardless of my surroundings, my circumstances,

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or the painful relationships in my life. That is just a sort of a, it's a vision that I think

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Jesus is inviting us to, that the kingdom of God is something that's at work within you,

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that peaceable, good, joyful place is a place of relationship with God. That's not just

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nice religious language. That's actually the life to which Jesus has invited us.

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Now from that place of robust life, I can navigate a painful relationship with a beloved prodigal.

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I have resources in me to navigate their poor choices, painful choices, destructive choices.

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But if I think my well-being is completely hooked into their finally changing, I'm in for a long,

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bumpy, painful ride. Wow. I just think that sums up what we all need to hear. That when we think we

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can control or that if something happens and we'll be okay, we won't ever get there. We won't get

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there. And yet it's in that relationship with God. It's in the work he's doing in our souls,

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the taking the burdens and giving us instead the peace and the joy and the patience, all the things

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that the fruit of the spirit offer us, then those things will make the difference. And one of the

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main things I say to our prodigal lovers is, you know, this is as much about you as about your

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prodigal, which is exactly what you've been saying. And so I say, look at what God's teaching you,

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because he's working on your prodigal. Don't worry. He is working, but he's also, every bit of this is

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for you and we'll do something for you. And you have just given us some really practical things

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to let our soul be free in a sense, to be cared for, to rest in Jesus and not in thinking we have

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to control. And that will improve our lives dramatically as we do that. And as we especially,

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well, the questions apply, we ask them for ourselves as well as we ask our loved ones.

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These are wonderful truths. And if you want to know more about those truths and the questions,

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especially, tell us again, the name of your book on soul.

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It's called, what does your soul love? And you can get it anywhere,

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anywhere. And we will mention that in the show notes. So it'll be there for people. And, but

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you have unhurried life, life and unhurried leader as well. And any of us need unhurried life.

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Probably most leaders need unhurried leader.

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Well, I'll just say briefly about that. Really unhurried leader is not for the person who's in

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charge of something as much as it is, how do I navigate my relationships? How do I navigate my

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life out there as I'm trying to live on hurried in here? So that's the question. And I think

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many ways that book intersects with the conversation we've had because it gets to how it gets.

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Absolutely. It does. Yeah.

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Oh, that's great. So you're offering us these words of wisdom. And again, the questions are

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really, I think, so key to get us and our loved ones in a better place. But then you've got books

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to back it up and to give us a lot more to work with. And you do some seminars, is that right?

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Yeah. So we do all the things we have. We have a website, unhurriedliving.com. And if you go

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there, you can actually find the links to all the books if that helps. And then we have a podcast

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as well. It's called Unhurried Living Podcast. So anywhere you just type in the words unhurried

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living, you'll find us on Facebook and Instagram and podcasting. And we do group coaching, we do

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individual coaching, speaking, all the things. And does this fill up your life and make it

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feel hurried, all these things you're doing? We are continually learning how to be busy and unhurried.

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Yeah. Which is possible. And we're finding that's really a nice thing to learn how to do.

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Oh, thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you would come and love on these people who need a

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lot of loving help. So God bless you. Thank you for joining me today on the When You Love

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a Prodigal podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on

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Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Your review helps the show reach more people with the hope

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and encouragement of Jesus. Don't forget, take a look at the show notes. And for more helpful

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information, resources and books, check out judydouglass.com. That's Douglass with two S's.

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You can find me on Facebook and on Twitter and Instagram at JudyDouglass417. Until next week.