Spencer Brand: He has walked where we have walked, episode 109

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal. And also help and hope for your own life journey. And as I always say, don't forget to jot down any helpful thoughts or actions that you hear or absorb from today because you'll think you'll remember. But if you don't write it down, you probably won't. So we want you to get really solid encouragement and help in your journey. Now I am excited for our guest today. His name is Spencer Brand. I've known him for decades, I think. And I have had the privilege of participating with him in some conferences for people with prodigals of varying kinds and ages. And Spencer has a huge, wonderful background. He has been director of special projects in the president's office for our ministry for Campus Crusade Crew for 37 years and is the founder and currently president of the Endowment for Community Leadership, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the development of the next generation

1:30 of American leaders. Spencer graduated from the University of Minnesota. He has a master's degree in public affairs and held senior positions in the office of the secretary at the Department of Labor and the Department of the Interior. He's been a consultant and speaker for almost 50 years serving public and private leaders on multiple continents in the areas of strategic effectiveness and interpersonal relationships. And you know, maybe the interpersonal relationships are part of what he really can help us with. He and his wife Barbara have been married for 47 years and have four grown children and several grandchildren, right?

2:16 Yes, three grandchildren. Yes, okay. And the main reason he's talking with us today is he has walked where we are walking and he has a lot of experience and wisdom. So Spencer, you have always been one of the favorite speakers at the gatherings for parents of prodigals that we have both been a part of. And I believe your consistent ability to connect is from the hard challenges of your life. You have walked where we've walked in this audience but more people than that as well. God's taking you through quite a few things. And so let me just get going with some questions and we'll talk for the next 30 or 40 minutes. So I'm gonna start at hard. Give us some background on the challenges that you and your family have faced, if you can please.

3:21 Well, I think, Judy, first of all, while I was working in Washington, DC is when I came to faith in Christ really through the influence of my older brother who was at that time director of the ministry at Penn State with campus crusade. And I understood from him how to share my faith, how to walk in the spirit and so on and all of that. But in any case in May of 1975 or early 75 I was invited to come out to Arrowhead Spring because a publication called Worldwide Challenge. Good magazine. It was doing an article on ministry in Washington, DC and it was at that time that I briefly met this beautiful young woman named Judy Downs. And we had just some brief conversation and I was interviewed by someone I don't recall who but later that evening Trudy Bush and I went out to dinner at Marie Callender's. And at Marie Callender's while we were talking about a number of things and again I'm in my early 20s, I'm full of myself, I have some very heady positions in Washington, lots of wonderful experiences. She turned to me and she said, Spencer, may I ask you a question? And I said, well of course. She said, have you ever thought that God might want to change your personality? And I thought to myself you know of course he does because we're to be transformed not conformed to the world. And that was the beginning of my spiritual journey of Lord I want to be who you want me to be, I want to do what you want me to do to say what you want me to say. Then I met my wife shortly after that we were married in 1976 for

4:57 about seven years before we had our first child and then we had three others a total of four children. In 1992 my wife's left side of her body went completely numb and we went to the doctor and she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. She had multiple sclerosis now for about 32 years. Bedridden at times, loss of eyesight, excruciating pain which meant she had to withdraw from so much of the family life with our children. I had just returned from a couple of weeks in the Soviet Union at that time our children were 9, 7, 4, and 2. And so I had to basically stop all ministry activity became in essence a single parent. Well as our children grew our oldest daughter who's now 40 married the one with the three grandchildren kept walking with the Lord mission trips to Camps Crusade and so on. Our second child who's now 38 involved a couple of mission trips started fellowship of Christian athletes in high school then went out to California to attend seminary. She would now deny that she's a Christian and she is dating a Muslim and considering marriage. It's her first prodigal the one most unexpected that happened later in life. Our third child when she was in about sixth grade started experiencing a number of difficulties, troubles, psychologists, psychiatrists, all of that. Ended up in her freshman year of high school having to have her removed and taken to a facility in upstate New York that was for drug rehabilitation, alcoholics, children with a variety of disorders and she was there for a year and a half. She

6:30 then left that went on to college was doing well then walked away from college and has struggled for a number of years. Today really trying to find her identity looked with a man for about seven years then moved in with a girl across the country. Now she works for a government agency that primarily helps LGBTQ people in Muslim countries so she would also be struggling with who am I what's my identity sees God has no plan in her life so on. Our fourth child our son ended up in special forces he's walking with the Lord and doing quite well. So we have two prodigals and this has been going on, Judy, for 20 some years so it's been a long journey for them. That is a long journey. So how is your relationship with them? With our with our second daughter it's changed wonderfully in the last few weeks because about two or three weeks ago my wife went in for a no mammogram and thought they saw something, then a sonogram, then a biopsy and she's been diagnosed with breast cancer and actually she'll go in for surgery on the 21st but that has caused a great deal of concern among all of our children and now yes and their daughter in California wants to fly out spend time with Barbara and so on which we will arrange for and our other daughter who has now moved back relatively close to us though we don't know her address we know she's in the same county in Virginia now. She's also contacted us and may stop by this past weekend so out of this kind of additional experience and struggle that my wife is facing it perhaps there's now

8:04 an openness here otherwise it's basically kind of elevator talk from time to time sometimes months without conversation with the one daughter at one season the year and a half without any contact so it kind of depends on the season but with those two for the most part Judy I would describe it almost as elevator talk. Elevator talk. Yeah and I think of this verse you know it says and we don't think of our children this way but because of their view toward the Lord and so on. In 2nd Timothy it says opponents must be gently instructed. I thought you know we don't think of our children as an opponent but in the spiritual sense they really are. In the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. So instead of trying yeah I think learn the hard way instead of trying to correct or you know whatever it is we want to do to try to fix our kids. Yes even for them and maintaining our relationship. Yes I really agree with that. Our tendency is one to say you're wrong we're right where why don't you get it. Yeah and and really our main way to help them and connect with them is that we love them and we seek to have relationship with them but we do also recognize their adults and we we don't have authority over them. And I think Judy at times we've kind of related to certainly I have related to them like if you're trying to speak with someone who

9:37 doesn't understand English you you speak louder result you know help their understand I think we've done I certainly have done that with my children you know a lot but I love but the rest of that verse says and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will. And when again we see that they're were involved in a spiritual battle it's not just it's not just you know the stuff of life there's something much deeper there that's why we want to approach them gently to the degree we can because because only the Holy Spirit's going to produce the change that we desire. That is so true that is so true. Well let's just think about some of the major things that you have learned on this long journey that's still going and and what is it that God has done in your life or revealed to you or shown you as you have walked through this and and learned how how do I keep going because you have to keep living. Well I think a good friend of ours gave us some good advice years ago that when you're really struggling with this and again for us you know it all of us have children that are so different you know some very young some old some drug some alcohol some sexual identity all of the strict things that we struggle with and other behavioral disorder. So instead of trying to kind of how do I relate to my

11:12 children is like how can you Lord how do we experience you in the midst of these ongoing struggles that may last a lifetime. And I think the first thing Judy is that if you're married and you have a husband and wife you need to draw closer together and that's not our nature. Just like Adam and Eve when they sin they ran away from the one who loved them the most and hid. And when I'm struggling I'll have a tendency to want to withdraw from Barbara solve the problems on my own then come to her with the solution or she may be in prayer she may withdraw as well and what we learned early on is that we must be meeting together talking together praying together and becoming one-minded to the degree possible on how to relate to each of the different children. Because again men and women are so completely different and mothers and fathers are so completely different. A mother has a whole different perspective than a father does and that's why there's often not right and wrong it's different perspectives to come to kind of a medium. So that's the first thing Barbara and I you know understood now perhaps for us a little bit easier because we were married for seven years before we had children and we didn't expect children the doctors didn't think Barbara could conceive. So it was kind of an unexpected you know situation for us. I think the other thing is to be fixing our eyes on the author and perfecter of our faith not on our children. Now there's practical encouragement but there's the deeper encouragement in the Lord so kind of as a practical aside. Two years ago I'm in northern Minnesota attending a baptism

12:46 that a small church was giving at a local lake and the three people being baptized was an 18 year old girl and her 16 year old brother and an 89 year old man and I thought Lord I thought Lord if it's my children at 89 they're yours. I just need to remember that you are in control you have them in your hand. I love what Abraham Kuyper said both with our children and us he says but also to teach you the struggles we're going through to teach you to trust in him when everything is gone all is dark and nothing more is left and we've all been in those places and Judy you and to teach you that when love leaves faith evaporates and hope sinks away all is not yet lost for he the Lord is still powerful enough to gather your life to himself and say Satan you can never tear this person out of my hands. So whether it's us or our children so yes we want to hope hopefully before 89 but even that great rejoicing but also our hope really needs to be placed in the Lord. That's beautiful so one of the things you mentioned before when we were communicating you talked about parental guilt what were you would you feel guilty for and what impact did that have and how do you respond to that? I think first of all that may I don't know if this is as true with mothers as it is with fathers because the father of tendencies you know I should have fixed them if only I had done something

14:18 different. So when I meet with men that have that are struggling with children that have really wandered away or all these other issues that we've talked about they're constantly saying if I had just done this I should have done this we shouldn't have lived there I shouldn't have had them in that school it's a hundred different we used to have a support group in our home with the moment our daughter was taken up to the school in New York we decided to have a support group in our home for parents who were struggling with the same kinds of thing you know out of CS Lewis one true friendship is formed when one person says to another what you too I thought I was the only one but also how we are as we go through our suffering part of that is so that we might come to other but as we would go around the world people would say well the reason my child is struggling is we have too much money the reason my child is struggling is we're poor the reason my child is struggling is they were adopted the reason my child was struggling is they were the only child the reason my child all of the reasons that we try to come up with for the behavior of our children so men are driven to want to fix them so they keep doing if only if only we had done and the thing I try to share with them and his mother's do it too is two things one first of all biblically in second in Corinthians chapter 10 verse 5 it says we demolish arguments in every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and we take captive every thought when I do an if only it's vain imagination and I need to recognize it

15:49 if I'm a believer of sin Lord I've sinned against you because I'm having his vain imagination so Lord thank you that he died on the cross that's and I'll take control of my life but now again on the practical side of it whenever we do it if only we always attach a positive outcome to it if only they'd gone to a different school they could have been run over by a bus on the way to that school but we never attach a negative to an if only so Lord is beyond my control you are the sovereign of the universe you have freedom to move in each of our hearts the number of times I've disobeyed you the number of times I've chosen sinful things sinful deeds simple but so Lord my child was on that same pilgrimage just in a different place than perhaps I was here I am hopefully but Lord I don't want to be caught up in that self-examination that idea that if only I had done something I could this these problems wouldn't have developed because actually it's a sort of pride that I really can control my child's life if I had just done the right thing on to more games hugged them or not yelled at them not disciplined them whatever it might be Judy so that that's you know what I mean by that parental deal I'm just ability well and I think that pretty near anyone listening today can identify with that there are so many if onlys and we have such a tendency to think it's our fault or certainly we played a role and we may have but that doesn't mean it's fault

17:21 like that because God's still working even when we blow it or they blow it there God is at work I love that he says in Scripture that he is always working yeah one night when Barbara was struggling with a lot of pain I went in the other room turned on the television to and caught dr. Phil and one of his comments was I thought was so profound he said our children may be 100% innocent of what happened to them even the things that we may have done or didn't do but today they're 100% responsible for their response to it and I think that's a very healthy thing for us to keep in mind check if you have older children I'm not talking about younger children older children they have they can make all sorts of choices what they're gonna do this Friday night what they're gonna do Sunday morning we all have those choices so yeah I agree one of the things you mentioned also well actually some several things but one was depression and others were you know the tendency to pull you apart in your marriage which I've observed for many and it may be prodigals it may be mental health it may be I have friends with odd whose child has autism it was a real stress on their marriage any hard thing I'm sure that that Barbara's health issues have been a stress on your marriage as well so you want to talk about that a little yes I think first of all Russian sometime again that I'm not

18:56 talking about clinically and so on is almost like being caught in a riptide you know when you're at the ocean everyone's a while you'll hear of these dangerous riptides and they start to pull you out to sea and you panic and so you try to swim to shore and that's when people drown because they cannot fight that riptide and they'll end up becoming fatigued and wrong but if you let that riptide pull you out you'll it'll come to a place where it ends and then you can swim horizontally to the shore of course if you're a swimmer and come safely to shore and I think sometimes seasons of depression within married couples with children we'll talk about kind of clinical depression but let's say the depression that happens when your dreams are shattered your child didn't go to the prom your child didn't go to homecoming your child didn't have the wedding you thought they were gonna have or the children that you were gonna have all of our dreams that are shattered that caused us to be depressed it wasn't the life that I expected it to be what's the reason from going on Dan Folgerberg said you know we face the future from a weary past so first of all those are seasons and in those seasons God has not left you he's still there even if you cannot see him feel him or touch him and that's why I love Thomas the Apostle because without him Jesus would not have said thus it are those who have not seen and yet believe and maybe I'd add those have not seen those have not heard those they're not feel so first of all in that season of depression we want to be sure that we are going into the scriptures now why I love what another friend of mine says says you want to read the Bible not because you have to but because you get to just perspective I can go into that

20:33 book and read the Psalms of David struggling Lord where are you you've abandoned me there's no hope knowing that's God speaking to me when I'm reading God's word he's speaking to me and he's the one that says Spencer I know how you feel my the one who loved me in an incredible way felt the same way that I had abandoned him Jim my own son on the cross said father why have you forsaken me I know how you feel but I'm here when it comes to the marriage situation we need to keep going back that we are to leave and cleave and I know that sounds simple but the priority is that marriage relationship not the children not the in-laws not the parents it's it's a marriage we are to be married until the day the Lord takes us home or today what we are I mean even if we're separated in a nursing home or whatever our children and Judy I check more I think about it it's really amazing you have poured your heart your time your talent your treasure and your children's life perhaps even more than kind of your husband because of the you're kind of co-equal so that one day they'd leave you they'd move out they'd say goodbye mom goodbye dad they'd have their own families it's really kind of a strange thing we think the very one that we you know have nurtured from whatever age or given birth to or whatever we raised them to one day leave us and that's why I always think of Hannah all she wanted was a child that's all she wanted the Lord said okay you can have this child but now give him back to me he's mine so I think for married folks for single

22:04 parents your life cannot be in your child if it's husband and wife your life needs to be together and you really have to come together and encourage each other ask the other your partner what you can be praying for about them you'll find out what's most important to them if you can't go away together or whatever then try to find some time where the two of you can nurture each other yes I've often told people that my ministry is to get Barbara a platform for her because she is changing the world as she says from a bit she's an amazing woman with great spiritual depth yeah yeah and and so if I am a husband I want to remember that my responsibility is to love my wife as Jesus loves me every time I rebel against him he loves me every time I disagree with him he loves me every time I argue with him he loves me every time I don't do what he wants me to do he loves me and every time when I finally say okay Lord let me listen he loves me and I think husbands need to really listen to their wives and when they don't pay attention when they know all the things that you're so because that's our responsibility and wives I think when they hear their husbands say something and I'm talking now about children well they don't agree with them they don't like ask questions why do you think we should do that with our child why do you think we shouldn't do whatever the issue is so instead of just reacting to when he says let's send him away or something I can't think of a good example ask why he's thinking that way because men typically won't

23:37 don't share a lot of what's going on in their life you know there was an old motivational speaker named Charlie tremendous Jones yes I remember this one statement he said his wife spoke 140 words a minute with gusts up to 180 and and if you were to ask me how my day is I'd say fine so you have to ask me to and so wives ask their husband questions as to why they think the way they do and husbands remember your role is to come alongside of your wife to learn from her she has a completely different perspective than you do on children on all sorts of well everything but we're particularly talking about children so that you really grow together to become one not only the new tackle so our daughter's up at the school for a year and a half she finally comes home we open up her journal only to discover that she had been living with a family off campus so to speak in the last few months and had developed a relationship with the husband of the woman that had taken on them and now my heart was shattered and broken and I could not tell Barb she was really going through a difficult time with her MS and there was no way I could tell her this I knew it would just destroy it and I struggled with this and finally I called a dear friend of mine and said what can I do he said well you have to talk to your book life about it you have to tell Barb his first bit of a guy he said Spencer you're going together in life as one I said you're absolutely right so I

25:08 went in and talked to Barbara told her the whole story what I discovered in our daughter's journal and she had her response with but we need to pray it didn't destroy her it didn't see even my protective thing of my wife and so on it's the same friend by the way who said Judy if you don't have people in your life that are encouraging you and you don't have people in their life that will dope slap you that's his word I my generation was kick you in the butt you're trafficking with the wrong people we need to have people at a time so encourages but also times to kick us in the butt you know it's kind of like as well chamber said moods don't come out with pleading they come out with kicking or something like that maybe maybe my current paraphrase you know I really resonate with what you're said Stephen I did things a lot different like and I'm the one you know Josh God sent to us and he told me he was sending us a son and it took it was a number of years and then all of a sudden we had this boy he was almost him he could barely read or write and he had so many issues from fetal alcohol syndrome and abandonment and we had no clue I tend to be the more soft and caring person not always but mostly and Steve was just horrified at his lack of willingness to work and his lack of responsibility in that kind of

26:42 thing so we both had to learn because we were way over our heads and and so we we would talk and we would pray and we would learn from each other and so I became a little tougher and he became a little softer and and eventually the sweet thing that happened was that he and Josh really connected but it took a lot of years for that to happen because Josh felt he was mean to him or he was too tough on him and stuff and and at the end they were just as sweet as they could be and Josh you know Steve left recently moved to heaven and Josh wept because he had really grown to love his dad who had been pretty hard on him but who was slowly being able to to really show something that felt like love to Josh and so it it was a learning process and it didn't happen overnight for us yeah and for many of us Judy that may take years but what a wonderful the Josh Josh wept I mean it all comes back to love doesn't it all these things come back to love no great has this the love of the Lord with all our heart soul in

28:13 mind the neighbor loving our neighbor obviously the fruit of the Spirit and so on but yeah it really does but I love the way you describe that because it's a process for the husband and wife yeah yeah it was yeah but it's been really sweet to see how Josh has loved him back now but it took a long time yeah and I would suspect to Judy that 10 20 years Lord willing Josh is around he'll look back and a lot of those things as Steve was hard on and see that they really helped shape decisions he's making now you know I think of my father who was oh every time I'm tempted tempted not to put something away that my father's voice rings in my ear put your tools away when you're finished okay well I didn't want to for 30 years but now now I you know now I'm doing it I guess I'm a slow learner that's well aren't we all learners one of the things along that line that was has been really fun to see just Steve calls Josh the most creative work of order he'd ever seen and Steve's kind of you know into hard work and and so it just drove him crazy that Josh would get his friends to do stuff for him he'd you know he'd always get other people to he wouldn't get his schoolwork done he just didn't work very well but God did a work in his life and he is now someone we consider one of the hardest-working people we've

29:45 ever watched he has a labor job coming from his mother's drugs and alcohol and but he works really hard at his job drilling water wells Wow and then he comes home they have a little farm and so then he comes home and he does all the farm chores and then on the weekends he does work around the farm that needs to be done and every time I'm there he comes and we talk a little and then he's off working again and I I've gotten used to it finally but at first when we realized the difference I just I'd be there and I would just weep I say look at him work so and Steve had a lot to do with that so just the duty the digging water wells what the what benefit that brings to human being and we talk of living water but the reality of water itself I mean that's just terrific I love that yeah I've told him maybe you should you know go to Africa and help them dig wells there he said I have three children and the farm right now well we'll see what God has in mind or not so in the midst of the challenges that you faced how have you maintained hope in your life because with the combination of Barbara's health issues and then each different you know the two different children especially who have been a challenge but each of them have

31:19 you know that could be so depressing and so discouraging and yet you still are not only able to maintain hope for yourself and your family but you're able to help others as well I think Judy sometimes when we talk about going into the scriptures it's almost like well okay that's the spiritual answer but I mean what can I really do to solve my problem and I think we have to remember going back to Romans 12 1 & 2 don't be conformed as world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and dr. Bride always would talk about the caterpillar becoming the the attack I think it was an error because you talked about the caterpillar becoming the moth but actually the caterpillar becomes a butterfly but any event that's that idea of being transformed is metamorphosis it's changing the way I see things the way I respond to things and only the Holy Spirit can do that so for example in Romans chapter 5 therefore having been just but justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ for whom also we've obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand we exalt in hope of the glory of God not in hope my children will change not in hope my affliction will leave me not a not in the hope that I'll no longer have MS or all of these issues but our hope in the glory of God and not only this but we also exalt in our tribulations Lord let me learn to exalt when I'm doing the dishes all the time when Barbara cannot communicate

32:51 with the rest of the family we're out enjoying when the children were younger laughter in the kitchen table and she's at the far end of the house she can hear us but she can't participate in all the struggles she's having to go through let me learn to exalt in tribulation knowing the tribulation brings about perseverance and Judy with our children we all desire that we would die before our children and so if we desire a long age for our children by God's grace we are we need perseverance because they may be wandering for years you know if if Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years perhaps our children will too yes and perseverance proven character and proven character what hope and hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us so we see faith hope and love in this one singular passage all focused on our relationship with the Lord by the renewing of our mind yeah how do we do that three times in the book of Philippians it tells us I have learned to be content I have learned I have learned and learning as you know is a difficult lifelong process the skills that you've developed as an editor of worldwide challenge and all the writing and all of the stuff you've done is a skill that was learned in a very early age learning how to do the alphabet in whatever it is kindergarten or first grade whenever we learned that all those years all the benefit that's brought to your life in

34:23 the life of others but it took years well then her relationship with the Lord we are growing in that for years we can't just say well I've read the Bible now can I know you need to give into the Bible to understand the spirit for life and that's why I started off with song with talking about Trudy Bush asking me I should change my personality because Psalm 139 says search me Oh Lord you know if there's anything displeasing or hurtful in my life that's the way I want to start every day so that I can have Spencer the way you spoke to your child yesterday was harshly the way you related to your wife Spencer was not proper the way that you you know whatever Lord thank you that you died on the cross for those things not take control of my life it's exciting when God will be all sin in my life because it's one more area of my life he can transform and then the second thing that happened in my life Judy nothing Christian pivotal my Christian experience as I mentioned I came to Washington had all these heavy experiences it was all about me with me then I come to Christ my brother tells him I need to go to church well I don't want to go to church but he sent me up to you of course he was out in Pennsylvania he sent me to fourth Presbyterian Church and those days Dick Alverson was the pastor later was a chaplain of the United States and and the first night I walked into that church he spoke on Philippians chapter 2 consider the needs of others more important than yourself and that was transformational in my life it's about you not about me it's about my wife not about me it's about my children so then Lord love is what's in their best interest not mine so if my role is to

35:57 serve my wife because of the situation she's in that's in her best interest and that will love it Lord if it's for me to just listen to my child say the most nonsensical things the most disgusting things the most rebellious things the most whatever and I know the truth I know how to correct I know that but if it's if it's if it's what's in their best interest at that time for me to simply be silent and listen then Lord I need to be silent and listen because it's about them not about me so I think in that marriage relationship in our relationship with our children we need to remember that love is always doing what's in the best interest of that other person now what's in my best interest and that's transformational and then the other thing and this is a kind of last thought on that line because in first Corinthians one three through seven says blessed be the God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ the father of mercies and the God of all comfort who comforts us in all our tribulation that we may be able to be to comfort those who are in any trouble so in other words again immediately we're pushed to helping other people by the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God and then it goes through tribulations and the afflictions and so on then it says for if we are comforted it is for your consolation and salvation in that passage he said God comforts us but he doesn't take away the affliction there's no mention in there they takes away the pain that he takes away the affliction that he changes our children any of

37:29 those things you're in that passage it's in the midst of whatever you find yourself in come to me I am all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest he wants to comfort us so that we can persevere for the long haul our lives can be characterized by faith hope and most importantly love love with our our spouse love with our children of course our neighbors and so on and then the last kind of along those lines is where he says my grace is sufficient his grace is sufficient for the moment and I want to take cap of those strange thoughts I have with the future and all that kind of stuff I want to take captive the thoughts that I may have things I should have done in the past he says my grace is sufficient for today so I take it a day at a time Wow so Spencer the theme for this year's prodigal prayer day which was last week was joy and the hard journey and I did several little devotions leading up to it on joy and boy was that instructional it was amazing our theme was considerate pure joy when you encounter various trials from James 1 2 2 1 1 2 I think and and so consider means it really is an action that you're gonna take as opposed to you feel joyful it says consider which is to think about to recognize to see how it's

39:04 true pure joy and I just go wow that's that's asking a lot and then several places in the New Testament and in especially the journeys of the children of Israel but other things it says over and over and over in Scripture rejoice always and and so my my challenge and then my challenge to the people in our community was can you do that not in your own power maybe but probably but certainly God has said rejoice always considerate joy when you encounter trials any thoughts on how they can do that better because that would make a huge difference in our responses and our lives if instead of be moaning the trials the hard things in our lives we can take God at his word and rejoice that is really difficult Judy and it's um you know it's easier for a person who's suffering a little bit it's much harder for a person that is struggling with suffering that we can't imagine for a variety of reasons but I think a couple things first of all joy is a fruit of the Spirit and even if we go back to that whole illustration we've all learned of faith fact and feeling joy is faith it's not a feeling right it's a fact because God says to us that if we

40:38 abide in him he will disclose himself to us and make his joy complete in our life so first of all it's a movement of the Holy Spirit in our lives but it's one of faith so every time the situation happens I'll just give you Barbara's example recently when she got the diagnosis of breast cancer this is after 32 years of MS and all and two prodigal children so she said well Lord I'm looking forward with anticipation to the lives of those I can interact with as I enter into this journey yeah but that's because she's invested in her relationship with the Lord for years when she was first diagnosed with the with MS as she was going into the MRI that the neurologist told her it's either brain tumor MS she said first of all Lord you're not a stranger to me so this will be I'll meet you in the middle of that MRI and then Lord if your will be done I'd rather have MS because I'll live longer most likely to see my children go up but God was not a stranger to her shortly after that because she had made an investment in her relationship with the Lord all all those many years long before this happened and long before we had children and then shortly after that I watched an interview with Clint Eastwood you know kind of the man's man you know the guy we'd want to be president because he'd solve all the problems in the world and they asked him well what do you but what do you believe happens after death and all of a sudden this man's man became a little boy and he said I don't know and he here was my wife to whom God the

42:09 creator of the universe was not a stranger and the Clint Eastwood at that time he didn't know who this God was he was like a little boy wondering what was out there so I think first of all I keep going back to the scriptures but well also the walking in the spirit joy is Lord I'm choosing today to engage whatever circumstance comes into my life I'm praying with anticipation not expectation expectation is premeditated resentment if I expect that I'm you know gonna have a good meal and I show up at a restaurant where it's lousy I'll be upset and resentful and mad if I walk to go into a restaurant say Lord I'm anticipating somehow some way we're going to have an encounter in this restaurant and the food is bad well it will free me from that irritation and instead be concerned about the waitstaff or the cook or whatever the person sitting next to me so I think first of all one it's the fruit of the spirit and it's an act of the will Lord I want to experience whatever circumstance is show me your joy Lord I will not let go of you until I know your joy it's the fruit of your spirit you've promised it to me if I'm yielding my life and my desires and my wants to you and then we go back to these verses and say now you may have to do that for five years ten years I've often as you know Judy was Johnny Erickson Tata is an example because when she started off at 17 I can't go on living this way she's a quadriplegic became one as this

43:40 beautiful young girl and her first response was I can't live this way now it's what 57 years later somehow some way a day at a time a week at a time and now she's going through all sorts of other struggles in her life so I can look at that and say Lord here's an example of someone who could persevere through a struggle so far deeper than mine to remind me Lord the source of her strength the source of her joy is not because she's a unique person it's because she is wonderfully yielded her life to you day by day step by step through the most difficult depressing lonely times when she rebelled against the Lord didn't want anything to do them all the stuff that we all go through in life and yet by God's grace he didn't let go of her and she continued to yield to him as the Holy Spirit would whisper to her what he wanted her to know even that one great quote which I'll miss quote of course is it's not being in my wheelchair it's not your prodigal children it's not your MS it's not your things that are the issue it's your attitude toward all of those things and that's what I want God to be changing in my life is my attitude and that's where again the transformation don't be conformed would be transformed by the renewing of your mind and the other thing Judy I think for those of us that you know no Christ or whatever you know the word murdered we think of those that have died have been burned at the stake and so on but the word murder in the Greek is Martis it means witness you

45:10 shall be my witnesses it's Martis we've only attached that you die for it well all of us are his witnesses and all of us are in a sense experiencing that kind of martyrdom because of the struggles in our own families that we never expected we didn't think it'd be our children we didn't think it would be our health but it may very well be and yet that reflects such great glory to him because of how we're responding to him and so I think joy is possible step by step moment by moment if we engage wholeheartedly what's attacking it greater is he that's in us and he that's in the world thanking God in the midst of whatever circumstance I'm in because he is allowing it for whatever reason that I cannot even understand and may not in this lifetime I may never understand and yet I trust him by faith that's beautiful thank you thank you Spencer I think you have helped us really go deeper and to the recognition of the source of all that we need on the journey that we're on for those who are just beginning it that might seem a little scary but those who are in it no they can't do it but that you have helped us to see that God will be there with us and provide through his spirit the whatever we need at that moment in time and the word of God and trusting in him giving thanks rejoicing those are all outcomes of of trusting God and knowing that he's going to be there for

46:46 us even in the very hard journey so thank you so much I am sure my faithful listeners that Spencer has sparked connection and some really helpful ideas for your journey be sure to write them down right now so you don't forget whether it was trusting God being in the word recognizing you live right now we don't have control it's not our fault and that you're with us through that journey whatever God has spoken to you write it down and check out the show notes because we'll have some information for you there how you can learn more from Spencer so thank you God bless you