Tom Yohe: Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal, episode 68

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If you love a prodigal, you can discover help

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and hope for your wilderness journey right here

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at When You Love a Prodigal,

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and also help and hope for your own life journey.

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I trust that Dana Russo's wisdom about grief last week

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was a great benefit to you on your journey

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with your prodigal.

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And we have more wonderful help today.

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Living with and loving a prodigal can be so confusing

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and frustrating.

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You don't know what to do,

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how to handle unacceptable behavior, who can help you?

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Tom Yohe joins us today, bringing wisdom

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from years of walking with a prodigal,

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of developing resources to help hurting parents

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with effective approaches and real hope,

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of co-leading hope for hurting parents with his wife, Dana.

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And now with a just released book,

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Moments of Clarity, Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal.

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Welcome, Tom.

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Thank you, Judy.

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Good to be here.

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Well, I'm thrilled that you're here,

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and I think that our listeners will be thrilled also

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as they get to hear from you.

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So Tom, I will never forget the night

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that you and Dina came to our Prayer for Prodigals,

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Prodigal Prayer Day night at our house to pray with us.

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But you had just found out some of the things going on

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in your daughter's life,

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and that she was cutting and other things as well.

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And for a while you didn't know where she was.

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And that's such a frightening thing,

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because you're not even talking about an adult at that point,

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but still a teenager.

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And you came, and I've told people,

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you kind of looked like you had caught in the eyes,

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the deer in the headlights.

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You were just, but so our whole little group,

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it wasn't a big group that night.

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Instead of doing what we normally would do,

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praying through our list of names,

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we just spent the time listening to you all,

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and talking with you, and giving you thoughts,

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and especially praying for you all.

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None of us knew what a long and challenging journey

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you had ahead of you.

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But we're grateful to have been part

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of that journey with you.

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And you now have had such a ministry

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in so many people's lives.

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Both when you've spoken to groups,

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and with the wonderful ministry you and Dina

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have hoped for hurting parents.

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We had the privilege of having Dina on our podcast

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last Christmas to talk about,

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basically, can you be happy at Christmas

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when you have a prodigal?

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And now you're gonna share with us

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some of the things that you learned on this long journey

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from a dad's perspective,

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because we have heard mostly from a lot of women.

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So thank you for coming to do this.

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Why don't I let you give us

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just a little background on yourself,

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and what you've done, where you're from, and your family.

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Dina and I were, after we got married,

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went into pastoral ministry,

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and I pastored churches for about 14 years.

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And one summer, we heard a brief little video clip

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about Russia opening up and showing the Jesus film there.

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And they needed people to come help,

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work with teachers specifically.

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And so Dina just said, you gotta see this video.

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I've seen it, and it really grabs me.

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So I saw it, and it grabbed me as well.

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We ended up going to Russia for a year

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with Campus Crusade then.

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And then at the end of the year,

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they asked us to transition to full-time staff

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to continue what we were doing.

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And we did that.

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And we were serving on staff with crew now for 14 years.

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But we had just come back from Russia,

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and things went really south with Renee.

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We came back for her because she was suicidal.

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She was cutting herself again, and it caught us off guard.

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We thought she was doing okay.

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But we knew we needed to get back to the states

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to get the help that she needed.

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And so that's what brought us to that evening.

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Now you mentioned that, yes, we remember her very well.

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And it was like fresh, clear water on a dry, barren land.

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It was so, so beautiful.

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It is a wonderful thing when people

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who are on a similar journey

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can come along and help each other.

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That's the whole purpose of this podcast is to do that.

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That's the whole purpose of your book.

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Let me, while we're on the topic of your book,

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this is not sooner.

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His book is called Moments of Clarity,

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Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal.

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And I, again, have heard a lot of what he has to say.

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And I just think you will be so blessed with this book.

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And I'll go in and tell you right now

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that we're going to give away two copies.

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And we will, you can, if you're interested

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in being in the drawing for this book,

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or one of the two copies, go to the show notes

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or the episode notes and there'll be a link

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for you to put your name in for it.

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So, well, here you are back in the states after 14 years.

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Is that how long you were over there?

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No, we were only over there a couple years,

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but 14 years on staff total.

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Okay.

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And you came back and your sweet daughter was in trouble.

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Yes, yes.

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So that's been a pretty long journey.

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And I'm just gonna be quiet

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and let you kinda tell us about it.

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We came back and we started to get her help that she needed

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and she did all right for a while.

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But then when she went into high school,

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she started experimenting more with drugs and alcohol

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and that continued on into high school.

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Finally, her senior year, things had gotten bad.

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The conflicts in the home were constant

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and she didn't wanna live under our rules

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because there were consequences

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for the things that she was doing.

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And she says, I don't have to live here anymore.

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And she found a friend and her parents took her in,

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temporarily, because it was about two weeks.

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Those parents kicked both the girls out

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because they were drinking, cutting school

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and doing other things.

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And after a little while on the streets,

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the one other friend of Renee went back home.

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Renee wouldn't, she didn't wanna come back home.

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So she was-

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Which broke your heart, of course.

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Yes, yeah.

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I mean, just wondering where is she living?

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What's happening to her?

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How is she providing for herself?

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Who may be out there that wants to be a predator,

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taking advantage of a young girl?

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She did manage, actually, I don't know if I can say this,

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but one of the administrators of the high school

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knew something was off and offered her a place to stay.

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And she pretty much did the same thing she did with us

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with this administrator.

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And she finally had to tell her to leave.

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But she went out and then she would call us

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when she would cut herself and then cut herself so severely

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that she needed medical attention.

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And those were so hard to receive those kind of calls.

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And they usually came in the middle of the night

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and we would go to the hospital, we would try to help her.

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And she just didn't seem to want to stop what she was doing.

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And then after several years,

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there was a group from our church

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that were keeping tabs with her.

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It was the youth group area, 20 something, they called it.

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And they kind of kept tabs with her.

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And one of the young men would call us

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and tell us what's happening with her.

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Renee's doing this, she's okay, or she's drunk

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or she's cutting, or let's get together, let's chat.

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And one night he called and he said,

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we're gonna have a come to Jesus talk with Renee.

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I've got several of our friends,

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we know where she's partying tonight, please pray for us.

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And so we did, we were glad that they were gonna do that.

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And it became a battle between the two groups

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because they had, Renee and her friends

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had pooled all their money,

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were gonna do it up big with their drugs and stuff.

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And these guys and some girls came from the church

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and they said, Renee, you gotta get out of here.

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You can't keep doing this.

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And after some long conversations,

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she finally said, okay, I'll go, but tomorrow,

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I'm gonna party up big tonight.

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And she did.

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And then she felt so overwhelmed with guilt.

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She cut herself up so severely.

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And they picked her up the next day.

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And they took her to a treatment center.

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And they said, we can't take her

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because she needs to be detoxed and she's got fresh wounds.

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And they said, bring her back in four days.

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And she didn't wanna come to our home.

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And so they just kinda kept around her.

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What wonderful friends to do that.

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Yeah, it was amazing.

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And so they kept her safe.

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They did some fun things and they went to church.

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They went to did Bible studies.

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And then they took her to treatment

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and she went into treatment.

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And that was a big turnaround for her.

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She remained sober and clean for about three years.

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During this time, a story was written about those four days

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that went viral, turned into a nonprofit.

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And interviews started being given.

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She was on the national news.

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And so our story became very public.

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And they would have her go around

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and speak at universities and tell her story.

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She did that for three years.

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And one night they sent her off to Philadelphia,

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but they sent her alone this time,

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thinking that she would be okay.

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She'd always had somebody with her.

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And this exhausted her after she finished doing this talk.

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She thought, oh, I've been good for three years.

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I think I'll have a drink.

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She went to a bar, she drank.

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She drank too much.

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Fortunately, a nice person drove her,

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got her back to her hotel.

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But she felt so overwhelmed with guilt again.

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She cut herself up.

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She cut herself again.

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Again, this time very severely.

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And she took some pills.

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So we got the call in the middle of the night.

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And-

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Love those middle of the night calls.

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Yes.

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They always seem to come, you know, in those times.

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Yes.

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So we kind of walked her through,

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calling down at the desk at the hotel,

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calling 911 and getting some help.

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And we flew up to get her.

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And that was, that went on for another couple more years

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before she had any significant changes.

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And it was just devastating for Dean and I.

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And we weren't familiar with cutting.

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It wasn't something we ever knew about

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or learned about or heard about.

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No, it's more recent, I think.

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Yeah.

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And we didn't know where to go for help

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and what to do.

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So we finally started attending Al-Anon meetings.

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They were very helpful.

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You know, very helpful.

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And then we thought, you know what?

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We would like to start, including scripture and prayer.

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And so Dean and I prayed about it

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and we thought we could start our own support group.

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And that's what we began doing

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and met in our own for a number of years.

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And as we heard more and more from other people

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who didn't have anything,

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that how can we help other hurting parents

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who are not in the same situation?

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Or parents who are not local?

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00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,200
And we thought, well, maybe we could write a curriculum

265
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,200
to help them start a group if they're willing.

266
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,200
You know, that's the biggest obstacle.

267
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,560
Or do you feel ready?

268
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,760
Or could you, you know, facilitate a group?

269
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,600
But that's the best we thought we could do.

270
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,240
And so we wrote a facilitator guide and parent notebook.

271
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,160
So tell me, while we're on that then,

272
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,240
your ministry, the Hope for Hurting Parents,

273
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,120
tell a little about how that works and how it's grown.

274
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,440
It started with just Dina's blog and our website.

275
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,560
And then as we began to produce,

276
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,800
well, she produced her book, published her book,

277
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,440
I think about five years ago, six years ago.

278
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,440
And then as the traffic on the website began to grow,

279
00:13:57,660 --> 00:14:01,200
and then we began to develop this curriculum

280
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,800
and hearing more about groups getting started,

281
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,360
then we realized that we needed some help.

282
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,960
So we were able to get two moms

283
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,360
who had been connected with our support group

284
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,760
and who had moved to different states

285
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,600
began to be interested in what we were doing.

286
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,560
And so they became our teammates.

287
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,400
So we have two teammates, Val and Beth,

288
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800
and they help those facilitators,

289
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,400
or want to be facilitators, get started

290
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,680
and maybe promote their group

291
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,160
or help any questions they may have.

292
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,520
And maybe come up.

293
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,760
So do you just, you have a curriculum?

294
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,260
Do they, you just give it to them and they do it?

295
00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:42,320
Or do you do a training or?

296
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,520
We really tried to make it as simple as we could

297
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,440
and make it highly facilitated,

298
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,440
rather than a teaching type.

299
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,360
And so, yes, they do it on their own,

300
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,720
and, but we're available if they have questions,

301
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,880
if they need to get things clarified.

302
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,140
So we make ourselves available for that.

303
00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:04,100
We've talked about training

304
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,900
and we toss that around.

305
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:09,640
And right now we're in the midst of talking

306
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,060
to our facilitators to find out what are the needs they have.

307
00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:14,900
What kind of training would be helpful?

308
00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:17,960
What kind of issues should we address?

309
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,480
And so we're moving from there.

310
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,080
Well, I know that you have good content

311
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,840
and I know that, because I've seen it.

312
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,320
But I also know that when I get people

313
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,320
who really have needs that are beyond my capacity

314
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,680
to really help them, I send them to Tom and Dina

315
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,240
and say, you know more than I do

316
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,600
on how to take the steps to get help.

317
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,520
So let's talk about your book a little

318
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,760
and what's in there, those moments of clarity.

319
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,060
Tell us in your journey,

320
00:15:59,060 --> 00:16:03,060
how did God began to show you,

321
00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:06,020
open your eyes to understand some things

322
00:16:06,020 --> 00:16:10,100
that could really be helpful for the parents,

323
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:15,100
for the child, and then to pass on to other people.

324
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,900
What were some of those moments of clarity for you?

325
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,820
Yeah, they were moments that God got through to me

326
00:16:23,820 --> 00:16:28,820
in a clear way that gave me some type of direction

327
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:33,480
or something, even words that I needed to say

328
00:16:34,380 --> 00:16:36,540
that really helped for that moment

329
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,100
for what I was going through.

330
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:45,020
I think one of the big ones for me was guard your marriage.

331
00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:48,700
I had a pastoral professor,

332
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:51,180
I went to a small Christian university

333
00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:56,180
who said to us, well, decades ago,

334
00:16:56,340 --> 00:16:58,920
crisis of any kind, guard your marriage.

335
00:17:00,020 --> 00:17:02,540
And that came, God brought that back to me

336
00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:05,060
as we started going through this with Renee.

337
00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:07,940
And so I knew, okay, this is what I need to do.

338
00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:09,540
There's a lot of things I didn't know what to do

339
00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:12,260
and how, what direction to go and what steps to take,

340
00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:14,540
but I knew what to do here.

341
00:17:14,540 --> 00:17:16,140
And so we're gonna guard our marriage.

342
00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:19,440
And so we made sure we had date nights.

343
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,620
And on those date nights, we would not talk about Renee.

344
00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:24,400
We would talk about our relationship.

345
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,460
We would get to know each other better.

346
00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:30,760
And Family Life actually produced a wonderful book.

347
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,220
And I can't come up with a name right off the end,

348
00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:39,380
but it was just a question with a blank page.

349
00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:42,400
And one page is for the husband, one page is for the wife.

350
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,980
And one answers the question,

351
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:46,100
the other one writes down everything they say

352
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:47,000
without comment.

353
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,440
And then it's the other person's turn.

354
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,240
And it was a good way to hear and just listen to each other

355
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,840
and listen to each other's heart and dreams or what have you.

356
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,240
And that was great.

357
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,720
And then we took advantage of Family Life,

358
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,640
marriage conferences.

359
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,240
We attended those, we did a couple of those.

360
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,040
And then our church offered a marriage ministry

361
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,240
and we attended those.

362
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,720
So we took intentional steps to help guard our marriage

363
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,800
because this is rough.

364
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,520
You know, you sometimes you don't know what to do.

365
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,200
Each of us could be on different trains.

366
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,600
I was gonna say, you don't always agree on what to do.

367
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,600
Exactly, exactly.

368
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,480
And I know that with our experience was

369
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,960
if Renee sensed that we were not united,

370
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,240
she would use that to turn the conversation

371
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,760
off of her onto one of us.

372
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,080
It's amazing how many of those kids have that ability.

373
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:41,920
Yes.

374
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,560
So what would be some, you've mentioned some,

375
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,480
just a little more on what did you do then

376
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,840
that you learned at the different conferences

377
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,040
or from these things that really made the difference

378
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,520
in keeping you all together?

379
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,960
Yeah, well actually it came down to a couple few slogans

380
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,600
that were really powerful.

381
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,600
Very simple, but very powerful.

382
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,560
One was, I'm not the enemy.

383
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480
You know, we get so mad at each other, you know,

384
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,200
and then Dina would say it, or I would say it,

385
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,200
we'd just say, Dina, Tom, I'm not the enemy.

386
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,000
You go, yes, you're right, you're right.

387
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,040
We're in this together.

388
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:21,960
That's good.

389
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,200
And then another one is,

390
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,200
what do you need from me most right now?

391
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,240
Because sometimes Dina would just need to vent,

392
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,760
but I'm ready to fix something,

393
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,640
I'm ready to jump in with, you know, and she goes,

394
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,360
I really just need you to listen to me right now.

395
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:38,200
Thank you.

396
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,840
So that was a very good one.

397
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:49,000
And then I think, well, there's another,

398
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,840
it's not a phrase that we, well, we came up with,

399
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,720
it's called, can they carry the suitcase?

400
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,680
And that had to do with your relating to other people,

401
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,280
because we got different reactions from different people,

402
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,600
even with their own family.

403
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,600
My uncle once said, what do you think you did wrong?

404
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840
Isn't that, that's just such a common question.

405
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:12,680
Yes.

406
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,160
And we realized that, you know, people's capacity

407
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,680
to carry other people's pain differs.

408
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,520
Yes.

409
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,680
And no fault of their own, you know, I don't blame them,

410
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,800
but maybe the things that they're going through

411
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,360
just doesn't allow them to have that capacity,

412
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,240
and they can't hear our story, they can't hear our pain,

413
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,840
and it's okay.

414
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:37,680
I've learned to just be great.

415
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,200
Oh, and it scares them.

416
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,040
Yes.

417
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,560
It's like, what if that happens to us?

418
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:43,400
Yeah.

419
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,120
And so they want to think it was something you did wrong,

420
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,080
so they can avoid it, as opposed to thinking,

421
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,280
there's something going on with this person

422
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,920
who's causing the pain, and we need to figure that out,

423
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,840
as opposed to blame each other.

424
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:58,680
Yeah.

425
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,480
It's like we have something that's contagious, you know.

426
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,200
If I hang around you too long, it might wear off.

427
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,360
Well, that is true.

428
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,520
So one of the things I know that was important

429
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,320
in your walk, in your journey,

430
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,960
was the understanding the need for boundaries

431
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,680
and consequences, and how you use that.

432
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,960
Can you talk about that a little?

433
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:24,800
Yes.

434
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,920
And that was one of the things that took a lot of effort

435
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,440
from Dean and I, and we would spend,

436
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,000
I would say literally hours, trying to discover

437
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,880
what are the boundaries that we can set

438
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,720
that we both can equally enforce,

439
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,920
so that we present a united front.

440
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,920
And I don't think there's a prescription for any family,

441
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,040
because they have their own scenarios,

442
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,800
they have their own situations they have to factor in.

443
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,560
But we would sit and we would figure out,

444
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,120
okay, what are the boundaries we can set,

445
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,280
and can we both enforce them?

446
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,160
And once we decided on what those were,

447
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:07,160
we had a talk with Renee to clearly explain what they were.

448
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,600
So she wouldn't say, I didn't know this,

449
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:11,840
I didn't know what the boundary was,

450
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,600
I didn't know what the consequence was.

451
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,760
And in fact, we actually printed it out and gave it to her.

452
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,880
Not that it really mattered, probably she just tossed it.

453
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,000
No, but it made it more tangible.

454
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,040
Yes.

455
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,840
And so we discovered a few of those

456
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,800
that we felt we can enforce and deal with.

457
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,040
And again, something that we did,

458
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,800
that I don't expect other people to,

459
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,600
I'm not saying this is what you need to do,

460
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,800
because we know of people who did just the opposite,

461
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,520
and it worked out great.

462
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,520
So I don't intend to do this,

463
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,400
but one of the things that, when Renee left our home,

464
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,200
just before she graduated from high school,

465
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,560
she left voluntarily,

466
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,520
one of the things that we did not want our home to become

467
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,680
was what they used to call a crash pad,

468
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,880
where you go out and you get drunk or high on drugs,

469
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,720
you come home, you sleep it off, you go out and do the same.

470
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,280
And it's a cyclical thing, you keep doing and doing it.

471
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:10,960
I said, no, that's not our home.

472
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,600
And we had other children in the home.

473
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,400
And so we told Renee, if you choose to drink,

474
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,920
you choose to live somewhere else.

475
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,320
And after one of her relapses,

476
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,000
after she got out of treatment,

477
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,320
we had to enforce that boundary, and she knew it.

478
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,080
And she came home the next morning,

479
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,880
she gathered her stuff, and we had a conversation,

480
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,040
and it was one of the most honest,

481
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,040
one of the most genuine conversations.

482
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,320
There was no anger, there was no animosity,

483
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,320
there was no bitterness.

484
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,960
And simply she said,

485
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,160
Mom and Dad, when I was in treatment,

486
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,960
the people who were in recovery and working it well

487
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,200
said they knew when they were done.

488
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,000
She goes, I'm not done, I don't think I'm done.

489
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,560
I go, but Renee, you can't control what that means.

490
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,760
It can mean you're dead, it can mean you're lame,

491
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,320
it can mean so many things.

492
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,960
In jail, you can't control it.

493
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,360
She goes, I know, but I just don't think I'm done.

494
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,640
And we just hugged and embraced and wept.

495
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,840
And she walked off the porch and got into the car

496
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,920
from her friend and took off.

497
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,680
But what I'm hearing you say is that,

498
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,160
whereas in the early times,

499
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,800
there was, she was fighting against you.

500
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,520
And so you had, in your struggle

501
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,800
and working through all this,

502
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,800
come to a place of being able to maintain relationship.

503
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,800
And still have the clarity of a good boundary

504
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,720
that she understood.

505
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,040
And it didn't, a lot of times when people do boundaries,

506
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,240
they throw them at them in a sense.

507
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,480
And they speak angrily because they've hurt them.

508
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,720
The family is hurt.

509
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,280
And so they get angry.

510
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,320
But that isn't gonna work.

511
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,160
It doesn't work.

512
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,080
But that isn't gonna work.

513
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,080
It just creates more conflict or she's gone.

514
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,160
And so you came to be able to maintain relationship.

515
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,720
And she understood that,

516
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,320
what a wonderful parting that was.

517
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,200
Not wonderful in that it happened, but how it happened.

518
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,120
That it wasn't an angry separation

519
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,920
like it had been earlier.

520
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,000
And so, go ahead.

521
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,840
When, like you were saying, when she was in high school

522
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,840
and she would act out, you're grounded.

523
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,160
And a lot of it was set in anger.

524
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,680
And that happened so often.

525
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,440
And we just didn't know what else to do and stuff.

526
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,480
But I think one of the things

527
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,920
that also helped change our relationship was,

528
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,320
she had again, cut herself up very, very badly.

529
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,840
Was in the hospital.

530
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,840
I was in West Palm Beach with my son,

531
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,080
who was in college at the time, helping him.

532
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,320
And I was driving back to the hospital.

533
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,160
And I go, God, I just don't understand.

534
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,680
I don't know what I'm gonna do.

535
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,080
What do I say to her?

536
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,960
How do I approach this?

537
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,240
And I just sense God saying,

538
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,480
Tom, I love you unconditionally.

539
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,720
And I love Renee unconditionally.

540
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,840
And you need to communicate that to her,

541
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,480
that you love her unconditionally.

542
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,200
And so when I walked into the hospital room,

543
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,000
she was broken and apologetic.

544
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,240
She said, oh, daddy, please don't be mad at me.

545
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,000
And I said, oh honey, we're not mad at you.

546
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,520
I said, Renee, nothing that you've done

547
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,120
or has been done to you will ever change our love for you.

548
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:57,960
We love you.

549
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,320
We will always love you.

550
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,320
We love you unconditionally.

551
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,280
And that was fairly early in some of this.

552
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,040
It was again right before one of the treatment centers.

553
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,080
But I think, like you were saying,

554
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,880
it has kept the relationship established.

555
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,800
That makes all the differences, my observation.

556
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,360
There may be strong disagreements,

557
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:27,080
but if you can maintain relationship and talk,

558
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,400
I have something I wrote called the voice of grace.

559
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,200
And to calm our voice down

560
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,200
and to speak positively to them,

561
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,000
not angrily or negatively to them.

562
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,480
And it just allows relationship to be there.

563
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:46,920
And guess what?

564
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,880
Then they can come back.

565
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,400
If there's been too much fighting and animosity,

566
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,840
then they think they're not welcome back,

567
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,520
even though in most cases they would be very welcome.

568
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,840
But it's what you've done is make a decision

569
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,480
to just make it possible for her to come home.

570
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,480
And I just love that that's the case.

571
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,120
We did explain to her

572
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,640
that this will always be a home for you,

573
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,280
just not a crash pad.

574
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,000
Yeah, and that's a difference.

575
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,680
That's true.

576
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,680
Well, you mentioned to me the threat of isolation

577
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,360
and how your ministry has been key

578
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,600
to helping a lot of parents.

579
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,440
I'm sure that when you're in ministry,

580
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,960
there's this, oh no, I can't talk about it.

581
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,040
People will judge.

582
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,040
People will think we're not being godly parents or whatever.

583
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,120
And we can get criticized quite a bit.

584
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,960
And yet you've been able not only to be open,

585
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,360
but to then come alongside and help others.

586
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,360
And one of the threats you said that was really a problem

587
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,960
is that isolation because people are afraid

588
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,760
to let someone else know.

589
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,280
Yeah, yeah.

590
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,080
I think we're embarrassed, we feel guilty,

591
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,400
and we'll just withdraw.

592
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,400
And again, I think that's very much the attack of the enemy

593
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,520
is to get us aside.

594
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,240
And it's interesting enough,

595
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,600
the illustration that strikes me so well,

596
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,440
it helps me so well.

597
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,040
It's a little illustration used in the crew

598
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,480
for spiritual laws where the fire,

599
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,520
if you take the log, one log out,

600
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,080
the fire is gonna go out quickly.

601
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480
But if you keep them together, that fire can keep going.

602
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,120
And that's a beautiful illustration of don't isolate,

603
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,480
get together with supportive, understanding community.

604
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,960
It's so necessary and hard.

605
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,960
I resisted going to a group for quite a while.

606
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,720
And when I did, I didn't wanna say anything.

607
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,840
And when I left, I was resentful.

608
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,280
I said, I've gotta make another commitment

609
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,640
to another activity while she's out there having fun.

610
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,880
But I needed it.

611
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,120
And it took me, I was slow coming to that,

612
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,040
but I needed it.

613
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,720
And I'm glad that I found it.

614
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,160
One of the other marvelous things,

615
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,600
which we haven't brought up, but with crew,

616
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,000
they established the You're Not Alone Conference for staff,

617
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,720
just for that purpose, to help staff know they're not alone

618
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,600
and that they have a place where they can get with others

619
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,480
who are walking in similar pain.

620
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,680
And it was a godsend.

621
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,800
It was a godsend for our lives.

622
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,000
And for many people.

623
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:53,840
Yes, it is.

624
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:54,680
It really has been.

625
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,080
It continues to be.

626
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,160
It's a beautiful thing that God has done.

627
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,760
I love when he takes the pain that people experience

628
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,680
and then allows that pain to be a salve and a help

629
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,600
and a healing for other people.

630
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,080
So that's a good thing.

631
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,920
Now, you have more points of clarity, I know.

632
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Can you share a few more of those?

633
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,480
Yes.

634
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:23,320
You wanna look at your book?

635
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,080
Yeah, let me look at my book.

636
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,200
We talked about carrying the suitcase

637
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,640
and the unconditional love.

638
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,160
One of the other ones that was meaningful for me

639
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,160
was after a confrontation with Renee,

640
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,760
a battle we had at home, and we both strong-willed,

641
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,760
and so we kinda clashed.

642
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,320
And I stormed upstairs,

643
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,920
and took all I had not to slam the door behind me.

644
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,640
Just like a child.

645
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,480
Yes.

646
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Yes.

647
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,560
Very much so.

648
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,520
And knelt down at the side of my bed and started praying.

649
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,200
I said, oh God, when are you gonna get her to listen?

650
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,920
When are you gonna help her to understand?

651
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,320
And when, yada yada, just giving it all.

652
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,080
And then finally, I paused for a moment,

653
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,720
mostly because I was tired.

654
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,840
I wasn't really listening.

655
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,560
But God got through to me, and he goes,

656
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,600
Tom, why do you keep talking to somebody who's not listening?

657
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,480
I go, oh, yeah, Renee definitely is not listening to me.

658
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,720
And then it was kinda like,

659
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,040
and why aren't you talking to somebody who is?

660
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Meaning him.

661
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,040
And that helped a lot, because I realized

662
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,840
that we had gone over and over the same things,

663
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,480
with Renee repeatedly.

664
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,720
And she wasn't hearing it.

665
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,200
She'd heard all she was gonna hear.

666
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,960
More of it, or said louder,

667
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,120
wasn't gonna make her hear it any better,

668
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,080
and while prayer would.

669
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,600
And my conversations with God, at least he's listening,

670
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,800
and he understands, which is another moment,

671
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,640
was I realized through Genesis, God's a hurting parent.

672
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:08,480
Yes, he is.

673
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,480
I mean, there's Adam and Eve.

674
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,800
We are all prodigals.

675
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,200
Yep, yep, we're all prodigals, and he's gotta deal with us.

676
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,000
And things got messy early on in all of creation,

677
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,400
and with humanity.

678
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,280
And so I realized that I had a friend,

679
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,560
somebody who did understand what the pain

680
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,080
of having a prodigal is,

681
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,560
and somebody who I could trust, walking through it.

682
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,280
Genesis, I think in six, I don't know what verse it is,

683
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,600
we talked about the thoughts and intents of man's heart,

684
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,560
were continually wicked all the time,

685
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,760
and God was grieved to his heart.

686
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,600
That's what we walk through.

687
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:52,440
Yeah.

688
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,280
You know, we grieve, and he knows it.

689
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,760
And he knows it.

690
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,360
It's, if we can realize he's not just a God up there

691
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,160
who is looking down and shaking his head,

692
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,360
though he has plenty of reason to,

693
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,360
but he understands, because he's been there himself.

694
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,600
And what a beautiful thought.

695
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,920
Yeah, it was very helpful.

696
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,480
One of the things I'd be interested to hear from you

697
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,480
is the difference, my observation is the moms, the women,

698
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,480
are much more willing to come and look for help

699
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,280
or to be talking about it.

700
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,640
And as you said, you didn't wanna go and get the help.

701
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,640
And yet dads needed a lot themselves,

702
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,400
but the child needs for the dad to get the help too.

703
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,360
So how did you all work through that,

704
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,280
or what did you learn in that?

705
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,280
I can't speak for men in the sense, factually.

706
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,360
It's partly, I think that, in my opinion,

707
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,400
is they don't know what to do.

708
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,480
They're probably frustrated they can't fix it.

709
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,920
Maybe even feel, I mean, I felt awful,

710
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,920
though it was out of my control,

711
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,760
that I didn't protect Renee.

712
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,840
I mean, I felt awful, though it was out of my control,

713
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,000
that I didn't protect Renee better.

714
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,000
And I think, and when you're dealing with a prodigal

715
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,480
in so many cases, it's so expensive.

716
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,960
If you have to deal with treatment centers or counseling

717
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,320
or a number of hospital bills.

718
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,720
Yes, the hospital bills.

719
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:47,360
And so I think it's easy to say,

720
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,000
this is how I'll deal with it.

721
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,120
I'll throw myself into work because we need the money.

722
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,760
And that's my contribution into this.

723
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,600
Now again, I don't have any facts or anything

724
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,200
to back that up, it's totally speculative.

725
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,560
But I think that that may be part of it.

726
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,320
I don't know if it's just part of manhood

727
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,560
that we're slower to these things.

728
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,120
Well, wanting to be stronger, maybe,

729
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,400
and think I don't need that as much.

730
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,400
But watching you and Dina, which I've gotten to do,

731
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,960
it's been a beautiful thing to see the work

732
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,640
that God has done.

733
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,880
And that you've been pretty open and honest about it.

734
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,520
So I've heard some of the stories that you've just said

735
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,560
about going up the stairs and wanting to slam the door,

736
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,120
but at least resisting.

737
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,720
And I can remember with our son that I would yell at him,

738
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:47,880
because it's like, quit doing this.

739
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,440
And learning to be more mature adults

740
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,840
and able to manage our own emotions

741
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,040
so that we can have a chance to help that person

742
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,400
manage their emotions.

743
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,840
And I've loved to see how you and Dina have done that.

744
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,200
And grateful.

745
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,480
I think we realized that our health would,

746
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,040
our overall health was gonna be vital.

747
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,040
Because what if Renee decided to come back

748
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,920
and want to live the life with Christ

749
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,960
and embrace all of that?

750
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,280
And we were the mess.

751
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,920
So we realized that that was very, very important

752
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,480
to try to stay healthy in all areas of our lives

753
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,320
that we could.

754
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,320
So that we would be in a position to receive her back.

755
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,240
And you have.

756
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:53,720
Yes, yes we have.

757
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:54,560
We have.

758
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,600
We're very, very fortunate.

759
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,360
Not the way we wanted,

760
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,960
but it certainly has had the results that we'd hoped for.

761
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,680
That's beautiful.

762
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,520
I'm glad to, I'd love to watch it

763
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,360
and to see what's happening.

764
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,600
So let me just let you summarize a little

765
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,520
some of the most important things.

766
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,320
If some dad comes to you and says,

767
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,400
what do I need to know?

768
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,200
What's the first thing I need to know?

769
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,720
What's the most important?

770
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:30,760
What can't I do?

771
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,000
What should I do?

772
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,040
Those kinds of things.

773
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,000
I know you don't wanna give advice,

774
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,320
but you can speak from your own experience.

775
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,400
I think the love, loving unconditionally.

776
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,640
You can't escape the verse,

777
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,240
God manifested his love for us

778
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:50,960
and while we were yet sinners, Christ tied for us.

779
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,960
That's so powerful.

780
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
Not waiting for us to clean our act up

781
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,120
or get ourselves straight before coming to him,

782
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,320
but doing it regardless of our response.

783
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,720
It's there for us, it's a taking.

784
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:07,600
And so I think that's, regardless of their response,

785
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,040
we communicate that to them

786
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,000
and let them know that repeatedly.

787
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,000
And I think also to let them know they're welcome home.

788
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,680
Again, if they want to live a wholesome life,

789
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,080
you know, a productive life,

790
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,640
that they would have a place to come back to.

791
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,240
And I think build a relationship.

792
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:33,920
You know, obviously if you're married,

793
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,920
focus on your marriage, don't let it deteriorate,

794
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,720
but actually make it grow.

795
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:39,560
And that's time,

796
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,920
because you're gonna need each other through that.

797
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,000
If you're not married,

798
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,800
if there's a special person in your life,

799
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,320
guard that relationship because you need the friendship.

800
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,440
You need that support.

801
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,720
Having some clear boundaries, again,

802
00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:57,560
that you can be united on.

803
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:02,560
And explain them clearly, let them know what those are.

804
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,360
And do it in a calm way.

805
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,920
As you mentioned, the tone, the attitude,

806
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,080
the volume of the voice is so important.

807
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,400
That's a hard lesson for me to learn.

808
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,040
I struggle with that a lot.

809
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,480
But I think that's a good one.

810
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
So if somebody who's listening

811
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,000
is saying, help, I need help, how do I get it?

812
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,840
How would they get in touch with you?

813
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,920
Our website, hopeforhurtingparents.com

814
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,160
would be a good place to start.

815
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,600
Dina sends out encouraging emails,

816
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,240
free five days a week, three days a week,

817
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:44,800
one day a week, your preference.

818
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,600
Those were very helpful.

819
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,160
Dina has written a lot of really good stuff.

820
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,000
Very helpful.

821
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000
Yes, God has really gifted her,

822
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000
and she's using those gifts very well.

823
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,000
Also, I think if there are resources

824
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,400
that we put on our website,

825
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,040
that we've just come across as we've

826
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,280
trying to figure out whether it's a treatment center

827
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,280
or other organizations that might be very helpful.

828
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,200
We came across situations where maybe

829
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,360
like an adoptive parent, we don't have that situation.

830
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,960
It's unique, I think, and they might want

831
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,960
an adoptive parent community,

832
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,960
and so we have resources for that.

833
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,040
Different books, we've gone through,

834
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,640
we've tried to find a lot of broad range issue books.

835
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,760
They're on the website as well.

836
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,640
So we try to put a lot in there that people could go to.

837
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,040
And in some situations,

838
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,160
we may know of someone else who knows.

839
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,000
Right.

840
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,600
And so that's, we can refer to.

841
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,560
But I'm the one who always sends them to you all.

842
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,560
And we'll send them on to somebody else.

843
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,560
So I wanna just kinda wrap up with some thoughts

844
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,560
on the importance of your relationship with God through this.

845
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:04,400
Yes.

846
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,600
I think of my relationship with God,

847
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,600
scripture, prayer, and a supportive community,

848
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,600
those are the types of things

849
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,600
that we both, Dina and I,

850
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,000
take us through this hard and painful journey.

851
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,600
I was angry with God initially.

852
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,800
I didn't understand.

853
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,000
But I think sometimes people say like,

854
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,000
oh God, you didn't intervene here, you didn't do this.

855
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,800
I'm done with you.

856
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,600
And I think, no, you know what, I'm not done.

857
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,200
The relationship is not like that.

858
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,000
The relationship is not being broken.

859
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,600
It's strained maybe right now,

860
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,000
or maybe I'm a little ticked off at you right now,

861
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,000
but I'm not gonna disconnect from you.

862
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,800
And so honestly, sometimes it was hard to pray.

863
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,000
Sometimes it was hard to open up the Bible.

864
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,800
But what I did do is, I love creation.

865
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,200
I love God's creation.

866
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,200
I just think it's wonderful, it's beautiful.

867
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,200
So many things in it is just marvelous,

868
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,800
and mystifying, and exciting.

869
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,800
And so I would just relish in creation.

870
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,800
I would see the things, and that would help me praise him.

871
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,900
That would help me to thank him.

872
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:23,700
That would help me to be more grateful

873
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:25,600
for what I was going through.

874
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,000
And over time, we worked through my anger and disappointment.

875
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:33,000
Well, but that's no surprise

876
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,600
that there's anger and disappointment.

877
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,400
When you mentioned thanking him and being grateful,

878
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,000
that was a huge turning point for me

879
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,700
that has changed my life ever since,

880
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,000
to learn to say thank you,

881
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,300
even when things are not the way I want them.

882
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:57,300
And to be grateful that he gives us free will

883
00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:01,600
to make our choices, and he doesn't make us puppets.

884
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,600
But that means that loved one of ours also has free will.

885
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,300
And you say, why didn't you stop it, God?

886
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:12,300
Well, because that's not the way I work.

887
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:13,800
But he's always working.

888
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,100
He's always working.

889
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:22,100
And I love how Dina and her writing,

890
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:26,600
and how you, as you, the message I've heard you giving

891
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,200
that became this book, more or less,

892
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:34,200
is full of God's word, and the fact that he's the one

893
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,300
who takes you through this.

894
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:39,500
He's a constant companion.

895
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:44,100
He doesn't just say, good luck, you can do it.

896
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,700
No, he's right there with you.

897
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,100
And that's been clear.

898
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:53,900
And I just hope that our readers,

899
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:56,900
and especially the dads who are listening,

900
00:44:56,900 --> 00:45:00,200
are realizing that the Lord is there,

901
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,000
and that he's been there for you.

902
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,500
You've been like any normal person,

903
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:06,500
you've had to struggle through it.

904
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:11,300
And so I just believe that, one,

905
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,300
as they listen to this podcast,

906
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:15,900
you're gonna be giving them hope,

907
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:20,800
and a recognition of, oh, I can make it.

908
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,800
Now, that doesn't negate the fact

909
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,300
that there's a lot of pain involved,

910
00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:29,900
and disappointment, and hurt, and confusion,

911
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:31,300
all those things.

912
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:35,900
And yet, God has allowed you to have some clarity

913
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:38,900
on some of these things, and to grow.

914
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:42,900
I just thank God all the time

915
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:45,100
for the gift of our messed up son,

916
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:49,500
because I have grown so much as a result,

917
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:52,600
and I know that that's what you would say as well.

918
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:53,500
Yes, definitely.

919
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:57,000
I think there's certain lessons that God needs to teach us

920
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,300
that I think will only come through pain,

921
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,100
and humility being one of them.

922
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,200
So yes, while it's not a journey I would have chosen,

923
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,500
I wouldn't trade the growth or the lessons

924
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:15,900
in the places that he's taken me through it.

925
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:19,400
Yeah, that's great.

926
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,300
Any other things you wanna say?

927
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:25,000
Think of the dad who would be calling you and saying,

928
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,100
help, anything else?

929
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:29,900
Well, not only repeating,

930
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:32,900
I would say if you don't have a relationship

931
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:36,900
with God through Christ, consider that seriously.

932
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:42,300
If you do get into the word, scriptures were so helpful.

933
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:45,900
And scriptures that you may have read a hundred times

934
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,300
took on different impact and meaning,

935
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:50,300
because your context, everything changed.

936
00:46:50,300 --> 00:46:54,900
I go, whoa, that verse really came alive more.

937
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:59,900
And also I think if your children have been exposed

938
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:04,300
to scripture, it's a good prayer.

939
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:09,300
I would pray so often, God bring scripture to Renee,

940
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,700
bring memories of good times with good people,

941
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:18,100
and bring those back to her, even at the time

942
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:20,300
when she doesn't want them the most.

943
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:22,500
And he did, she told me.

944
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:23,700
That's beautiful.

945
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:27,800
So, yeah, scripture's so powerful in prayer.

946
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,300
Yes, I agree with that.

947
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:34,600
So, well, Tom, thank you.

948
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,500
Thank you so much for coming

949
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:41,500
and being willing to be honest and vulnerable

950
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,200
so that others could look at their journey

951
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,400
in maybe a better light than they had and have hope,

952
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,500
and really be willing to get help,

953
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:56,700
maybe come to you for some help,

954
00:47:56,700 --> 00:48:00,700
or at least get your book and read it,

955
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:03,300
because there's a lot of good stuff in here.

956
00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:08,300
And don't forget, we're gonna be giving away two of them,

957
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:09,600
and you can join that.

958
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,600
So, you can buy this book anywhere the books are sold.

959
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:17,100
June 15th.

960
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:17,940
June 15th.

961
00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:18,900
They'll be released.

962
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:22,600
And that's right around when this will air.

963
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,900
Now, to my listeners, I want you to think a minute.

964
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:31,300
Even as you've listened to Tom tell his story,

965
00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:36,300
and the hard journey, and the good that has come from it,

966
00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:39,000
even though it's not been easy,

967
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:43,400
what stood out to you?

968
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,400
What do you think of that really applies to you right now?

969
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,500
Was it to protect your marriage?

970
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:55,000
Was it to calmly and with love

971
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,500
set those boundaries and consequences?

972
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:00,200
Was it to maintain relationship?

973
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:03,400
To lower your voice?

974
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,300
Whatever.

975
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:08,800
Think, and just what is it that God's saying to you right now

976
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:13,800
that something you can do, a new idea to try,

977
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:17,400
a decision to get some help,

978
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,800
whatever God said to you during this little bit of time

979
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:22,800
that we've had.

980
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:25,600
Thank you so much, Tom.

981
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,000
God bless you, and God bless you, all my listeners.

982
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:49,000
He has wonderful surprises for you.