Tom Yohe: Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal, episode 68

0:00 If you love a prodigal, you can discover help and hope for your wilderness journey right here at When You Love a Prodigal, and also help and hope for your own life journey. I trust that Dana Russo's wisdom about grief last week was a great benefit to you on your journey with your prodigal. And we have more wonderful help today. Living with and loving a prodigal can be so confusing and frustrating. You don't know what to do, how to handle unacceptable behavior, who can help you?

0:40 Tom Yohe joins us today, bringing wisdom from years of walking with a prodigal, of developing resources to help hurting parents with effective approaches and real hope, of co-leading hope for hurting parents with his wife, Dana. And now with a just released book, Moments of Clarity, Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal. Welcome, Tom. Thank you, Judy. Good to be here. Well, I'm thrilled that you're here, and I think that our listeners will be thrilled also as they get to hear from you.

1:21 So Tom, I will never forget the night that you and Dina came to our Prayer for Prodigals, Prodigal Prayer Day night at our house to pray with us. But you had just found out some of the things going on in your daughter's life, and that she was cutting and other things as well. And for a while you didn't know where she was. And that's such a frightening thing, because you're not even talking about an adult at that point, but still a teenager. And you came, and I've told people, you kind of looked like you had caught in the eyes, the deer in the headlights.

2:06 You were just, but so our whole little group, it wasn't a big group that night. Instead of doing what we normally would do, praying through our list of names, we just spent the time listening to you all, and talking with you, and giving you thoughts, and especially praying for you all. None of us knew what a long and challenging journey you had ahead of you. But we're grateful to have been part of that journey with you. And you now have had such a ministry in so many people's lives. Both when you've spoken to groups, and with the wonderful ministry you and Dina have hoped for hurting parents.

2:53 We had the privilege of having Dina on our podcast last Christmas to talk about, basically, can you be happy at Christmas when you have a prodigal? And now you're gonna share with us some of the things that you learned on this long journey from a dad's perspective, because we have heard mostly from a lot of women. So thank you for coming to do this. Why don't I let you give us just a little background on yourself, and what you've done, where you're from, and your family. Dina and I were, after we got married, went into pastoral ministry, and I pastored churches for about 14 years.

3:38 And one summer, we heard a brief little video clip about Russia opening up and showing the Jesus film there. And they needed people to come help, work with teachers specifically. And so Dina just said, you gotta see this video. I've seen it, and it really grabs me. So I saw it, and it grabbed me as well. We ended up going to Russia for a year with Campus Crusade then. And then at the end of the year, they asked us to transition to full-time staff to continue what we were doing. And we did that. And we were serving on staff with crew now for 14 years.

4:22 But we had just come back from Russia, and things went really south with Renee. We came back for her because she was suicidal. She was cutting herself again, and it caught us off guard. We thought she was doing okay. But we knew we needed to get back to the states to get the help that she needed. And so that's what brought us to that evening. Now you mentioned that, yes, we remember her very well. And it was like fresh, clear water on a dry, barren land. It was so, so beautiful. It is a wonderful thing when people who are on a similar journey can come along and help each other.

5:07 That's the whole purpose of this podcast is to do that. That's the whole purpose of your book. Let me, while we're on the topic of your book, this is not sooner. His book is called Moments of Clarity, Wisdom from the Father of a Prodigal. And I, again, have heard a lot of what he has to say. And I just think you will be so blessed with this book. And I'll go in and tell you right now that we're going to give away two copies. And we will, you can, if you're interested in being in the drawing for this book, or one of the two copies, go to the show notes or the episode notes and there'll be a link for you to put your name in for it.

5:56 So, well, here you are back in the states after 14 years. Is that how long you were over there? No, we were only over there a couple years, but 14 years on staff total. Okay. And you came back and your sweet daughter was in trouble. Yes, yes. So that's been a pretty long journey. And I'm just gonna be quiet and let you kinda tell us about it. We came back and we started to get her help that she needed and she did all right for a while. But then when she went into high school, she started experimenting more with drugs and alcohol and that continued on into high school.

6:43 Finally, her senior year, things had gotten bad. The conflicts in the home were constant and she didn't wanna live under our rules because there were consequences for the things that she was doing. And she says, I don't have to live here anymore. And she found a friend and her parents took her in, temporarily, because it was about two weeks. Those parents kicked both the girls out because they were drinking, cutting school and doing other things. And after a little while on the streets, the one other friend of Renee went back home. Renee wouldn't, she didn't wanna come back home.

7:27 So she was- Which broke your heart, of course. Yes, yeah. I mean, just wondering where is she living? What's happening to her? How is she providing for herself? Who may be out there that wants to be a predator, taking advantage of a young girl? She did manage, actually, I don't know if I can say this, but one of the administrators of the high school knew something was off and offered her a place to stay. And she pretty much did the same thing she did with us with this administrator. And she finally had to tell her to leave. But she went out and then she would call us when she would cut herself and then cut herself so severely that she needed medical attention.

8:13 And those were so hard to receive those kind of calls. And they usually came in the middle of the night and we would go to the hospital, we would try to help her. And she just didn't seem to want to stop what she was doing. And then after several years, there was a group from our church that were keeping tabs with her. It was the youth group area, 20 something, they called it. And they kind of kept tabs with her. And one of the young men would call us and tell us what's happening with her.

8:56 Renee's doing this, she's okay, or she's drunk or she's cutting, or let's get together, let's chat. And one night he called and he said, we're gonna have a come to Jesus talk with Renee. I've got several of our friends, we know where she's partying tonight, please pray for us. And so we did, we were glad that they were gonna do that. And it became a battle between the two groups because they had, Renee and her friends had pooled all their money, were gonna do it up big with their drugs and stuff. And these guys and some girls came from the church and they said, Renee, you gotta get out of here.

9:36 You can't keep doing this. And after some long conversations, she finally said, okay, I'll go, but tomorrow, I'm gonna party up big tonight. And she did. And then she felt so overwhelmed with guilt. She cut herself up so severely. And they picked her up the next day. And they took her to a treatment center. And they said, we can't take her because she needs to be detoxed and she's got fresh wounds. And they said, bring her back in four days. And she didn't wanna come to our home. And so they just kinda kept around her. What wonderful friends to do that.

10:18 Yeah, it was amazing. And so they kept her safe. They did some fun things and they went to church. They went to did Bible studies. And then they took her to treatment and she went into treatment. And that was a big turnaround for her. She remained sober and clean for about three years. During this time, a story was written about those four days that went viral, turned into a nonprofit. And interviews started being given. She was on the national news. And so our story became very public.

11:00 And they would have her go around and speak at universities and tell her story. She did that for three years. And one night they sent her off to Philadelphia, but they sent her alone this time, thinking that she would be okay. She'd always had somebody with her. And this exhausted her after she finished doing this talk. She thought, oh, I've been good for three years. I think I'll have a drink. She went to a bar, she drank. She drank too much. Fortunately, a nice person drove her, got her back to her hotel. But she felt so overwhelmed with guilt again. She cut herself up. She cut herself again. Again, this time very severely.

11:42 And she took some pills. So we got the call in the middle of the night. And- Love those middle of the night calls. Yes. They always seem to come, you know, in those times. Yes. So we kind of walked her through, calling down at the desk at the hotel, calling 911 and getting some help. And we flew up to get her. And that was, that went on for another couple more years before she had any significant changes. And it was just devastating for Dean and I. And we weren't familiar with cutting. It wasn't something we ever knew about or learned about or heard about.

12:24 No, it's more recent, I think. Yeah. And we didn't know where to go for help and what to do. So we finally started attending Al-Anon meetings. They were very helpful. You know, very helpful. And then we thought, you know what? We would like to start, including scripture and prayer. And so Dean and I prayed about it and we thought we could start our own support group. And that's what we began doing and met in our own for a number of years. And as we heard more and more from other people who didn't have anything, that how can we help other hurting parents who are not in the same situation?

13:08 Or parents who are not local? And we thought, well, maybe we could write a curriculum to help them start a group if they're willing. You know, that's the biggest obstacle. Or do you feel ready? Or could you, you know, facilitate a group? But that's the best we thought we could do. And so we wrote a facilitator guide and parent notebook. So tell me, while we're on that then, your ministry, the Hope for Hurting Parents, tell a little about how that works and how it's grown. It started with just Dina's blog and our website. And then as we began to produce, well, she produced her book, published her book, I think about five years ago, six years ago.

13:52 And then as the traffic on the website began to grow, and then we began to develop this curriculum and hearing more about groups getting started, then we realized that we needed some help. So we were able to get two moms who had been connected with our support group and who had moved to different states began to be interested in what we were doing. And so they became our teammates. So we have two teammates, Val and Beth, and they help those facilitators, or want to be facilitators, get started and maybe promote their group or help any questions they may have.

14:34 And maybe come up. So do you just, you have a curriculum? Do they, you just give it to them and they do it? Or do you do a training or? We really tried to make it as simple as we could and make it highly facilitated, rather than a teaching type. And so, yes, they do it on their own, and, but we're available if they have questions, if they need to get things clarified. So we make ourselves available for that. We've talked about training and we toss that around. And right now we're in the midst of talking to our facilitators to find out what are the needs they have. What kind of training would be helpful?

15:14 What kind of issues should we address? And so we're moving from there. Well, I know that you have good content and I know that, because I've seen it. But I also know that when I get people who really have needs that are beyond my capacity to really help them, I send them to Tom and Dina and say, you know more than I do on how to take the steps to get help. So let's talk about your book a little and what's in there, those moments of clarity.

15:56 Tell us in your journey, how did God began to show you, open your eyes to understand some things that could really be helpful for the parents, for the child, and then to pass on to other people. What were some of those moments of clarity for you? Yeah, they were moments that God got through to me in a clear way that gave me some type of direction or something, even words that I needed to say that really helped for that moment for what I was going through.

16:40 I think one of the big ones for me was guard your marriage. I had a pastoral professor, I went to a small Christian university who said to us, well, decades ago, crisis of any kind, guard your marriage. And that came, God brought that back to me as we started going through this with Renee. And so I knew, okay, this is what I need to do. There's a lot of things I didn't know what to do and how, what direction to go and what steps to take, but I knew what to do here. And so we're gonna guard our marriage. And so we made sure we had date nights. And on those date nights, we would not talk about Renee.

17:22 We would talk about our relationship. We would get to know each other better. And Family Life actually produced a wonderful book. And I can't come up with a name right off the end, but it was just a question with a blank page. And one page is for the husband, one page is for the wife. And one answers the question, the other one writes down everything they say without comment. And then it's the other person's turn. And it was a good way to hear and just listen to each other and listen to each other's heart and dreams or what have you. And that was great. And then we took advantage of Family Life, marriage conferences.

18:02 We attended those, we did a couple of those. And then our church offered a marriage ministry and we attended those. So we took intentional steps to help guard our marriage because this is rough. You know, you sometimes you don't know what to do. Each of us could be on different trains. I was gonna say, you don't always agree on what to do. Exactly, exactly. And I know that with our experience was if Renee sensed that we were not united, she would use that to turn the conversation off of her onto one of us. It's amazing how many of those kids have that ability. Yes. So what would be some, you've mentioned some, just a little more on what did you do then that you learned at the different conferences or from these things that really made the difference in keeping you all together?

18:57 Yeah, well actually it came down to a couple few slogans that were really powerful. Very simple, but very powerful. One was, I'm not the enemy. You know, we get so mad at each other, you know, and then Dina would say it, or I would say it, we'd just say, Dina, Tom, I'm not the enemy. You go, yes, you're right, you're right. We're in this together. That's good. And then another one is, what do you need from me most right now? Because sometimes Dina would just need to vent, but I'm ready to fix something, I'm ready to jump in with, you know, and she goes, I really just need you to listen to me right now. Thank you.

19:38 So that was a very good one. And then I think, well, there's another, it's not a phrase that we, well, we came up with, it's called, can they carry the suitcase? And that had to do with your relating to other people, because we got different reactions from different people, even with their own family. My uncle once said, what do you think you did wrong? Isn't that, that's just such a common question. Yes. And we realized that, you know, people's capacity to carry other people's pain differs.

20:21 Yes. And no fault of their own, you know, I don't blame them, but maybe the things that they're going through just doesn't allow them to have that capacity, and they can't hear our story, they can't hear our pain, and it's okay. I've learned to just be great. Oh, and it scares them. Yes. It's like, what if that happens to us? Yeah. And so they want to think it was something you did wrong, so they can avoid it, as opposed to thinking, there's something going on with this person who's causing the pain, and we need to figure that out, as opposed to blame each other. Yeah. It's like we have something that's contagious, you know. If I hang around you too long, it might wear off.

21:05 Well, that is true. So one of the things I know that was important in your walk, in your journey, was the understanding the need for boundaries and consequences, and how you use that. Can you talk about that a little? Yes. And that was one of the things that took a lot of effort from Dean and I, and we would spend, I would say literally hours, trying to discover what are the boundaries that we can set that we both can equally enforce, so that we present a united front. And I don't think there's a prescription for any family, because they have their own scenarios, they have their own situations they have to factor in.

21:51 But we would sit and we would figure out, okay, what are the boundaries we can set, and can we both enforce them? And once we decided on what those were, we had a talk with Renee to clearly explain what they were. So she wouldn't say, I didn't know this, I didn't know what the boundary was, I didn't know what the consequence was. And in fact, we actually printed it out and gave it to her. Not that it really mattered, probably she just tossed it. No, but it made it more tangible. Yes. And so we discovered a few of those that we felt we can enforce and deal with. And again, something that we did, that I don't expect other people to, I'm not saying this is what you need to do, because we know of people who did just the opposite, and it worked out great.

22:43 So I don't intend to do this, but one of the things that, when Renee left our home, just before she graduated from high school, she left voluntarily, one of the things that we did not want our home to become was what they used to call a crash pad, where you go out and you get drunk or high on drugs, you come home, you sleep it off, you go out and do the same. And it's a cyclical thing, you keep doing and doing it. I said, no, that's not our home. And we had other children in the home. And so we told Renee, if you choose to drink, you choose to live somewhere else. And after one of her relapses, after she got out of treatment, we had to enforce that boundary, and she knew it.

23:29 And she came home the next morning, she gathered her stuff, and we had a conversation, and it was one of the most honest, one of the most genuine conversations. There was no anger, there was no animosity, there was no bitterness. And simply she said, Mom and Dad, when I was in treatment, the people who were in recovery and working it well said they knew when they were done. She goes, I'm not done, I don't think I'm done. I go, but Renee, you can't control what that means. It can mean you're dead, it can mean you're lame, it can mean so many things. In jail, you can't control it.

24:11 She goes, I know, but I just don't think I'm done. And we just hugged and embraced and wept. And she walked off the porch and got into the car from her friend and took off. But what I'm hearing you say is that, whereas in the early times, there was, she was fighting against you. And so you had, in your struggle and working through all this, come to a place of being able to maintain relationship. And still have the clarity of a good boundary that she understood.

24:54 And it didn't, a lot of times when people do boundaries, they throw them at them in a sense. And they speak angrily because they've hurt them. The family is hurt. And so they get angry. But that isn't gonna work. It doesn't work. But that isn't gonna work. It just creates more conflict or she's gone. And so you came to be able to maintain relationship. And she understood that, what a wonderful parting that was. Not wonderful in that it happened, but how it happened.

25:37 That it wasn't an angry separation like it had been earlier. And so, go ahead. When, like you were saying, when she was in high school and she would act out, you're grounded. And a lot of it was set in anger. And that happened so often. And we just didn't know what else to do and stuff. But I think one of the things that also helped change our relationship was, she had again, cut herself up very, very badly. Was in the hospital. I was in West Palm Beach with my son, who was in college at the time, helping him. And I was driving back to the hospital.

26:18 And I go, God, I just don't understand. I don't know what I'm gonna do. What do I say to her? How do I approach this? And I just sense God saying, Tom, I love you unconditionally. And I love Renee unconditionally. And you need to communicate that to her, that you love her unconditionally. And so when I walked into the hospital room, she was broken and apologetic. She said, oh, daddy, please don't be mad at me. And I said, oh honey, we're not mad at you. I said, Renee, nothing that you've done or has been done to you will ever change our love for you. We love you. We will always love you.

26:59 We love you unconditionally. And that was fairly early in some of this. It was again right before one of the treatment centers. But I think, like you were saying, it has kept the relationship established. That makes all the differences, my observation. There may be strong disagreements, but if you can maintain relationship and talk, I have something I wrote called the voice of grace. And to calm our voice down and to speak positively to them, not angrily or negatively to them.

27:42 And it just allows relationship to be there. And guess what? Then they can come back. If there's been too much fighting and animosity, then they think they're not welcome back, even though in most cases they would be very welcome. But it's what you've done is make a decision to just make it possible for her to come home. And I just love that that's the case. We did explain to her that this will always be a home for you, just not a crash pad. Yeah, and that's a difference. That's true.

28:22 Well, you mentioned to me the threat of isolation and how your ministry has been key to helping a lot of parents. I'm sure that when you're in ministry, there's this, oh no, I can't talk about it. People will judge. People will think we're not being godly parents or whatever. And we can get criticized quite a bit. And yet you've been able not only to be open, but to then come alongside and help others. And one of the threats you said that was really a problem is that isolation because people are afraid to let someone else know.

29:07 Yeah, yeah. I think we're embarrassed, we feel guilty, and we'll just withdraw. And again, I think that's very much the attack of the enemy is to get us aside. And it's interesting enough, the illustration that strikes me so well, it helps me so well. It's a little illustration used in the crew for spiritual laws where the fire, if you take the log, one log out, the fire is gonna go out quickly. But if you keep them together, that fire can keep going. And that's a beautiful illustration of don't isolate, get together with supportive, understanding community.

29:52 It's so necessary and hard. I resisted going to a group for quite a while. And when I did, I didn't wanna say anything. And when I left, I was resentful. I said, I've gotta make another commitment to another activity while she's out there having fun. But I needed it. And it took me, I was slow coming to that, but I needed it. And I'm glad that I found it. One of the other marvelous things, which we haven't brought up, but with crew, they established the You're Not Alone Conference for staff, just for that purpose, to help staff know they're not alone and that they have a place where they can get with others who are walking in similar pain.

30:47 And it was a godsend. It was a godsend for our lives. And for many people. Yes, it is. It really has been. It continues to be. It's a beautiful thing that God has done. I love when he takes the pain that people experience and then allows that pain to be a salve and a help and a healing for other people. So that's a good thing. Now, you have more points of clarity, I know. Can you share a few more of those? Yes. You wanna look at your book? Yeah, let me look at my book. We talked about carrying the suitcase and the unconditional love.

31:30 One of the other ones that was meaningful for me was after a confrontation with Renee, a battle we had at home, and we both strong-willed, and so we kinda clashed. And I stormed upstairs, and took all I had not to slam the door behind me. Just like a child. Yes. Yes. Very much so. And knelt down at the side of my bed and started praying. I said, oh God, when are you gonna get her to listen? When are you gonna help her to understand? And when, yada yada, just giving it all. And then finally, I paused for a moment, mostly because I was tired.

32:10 I wasn't really listening. But God got through to me, and he goes, Tom, why do you keep talking to somebody who's not listening? I go, oh, yeah, Renee definitely is not listening to me. And then it was kinda like, and why aren't you talking to somebody who is? Meaning him. And that helped a lot, because I realized that we had gone over and over the same things, with Renee repeatedly. And she wasn't hearing it. She'd heard all she was gonna hear. More of it, or said louder, wasn't gonna make her hear it any better, and while prayer would.

32:55 And my conversations with God, at least he's listening, and he understands, which is another moment, was I realized through Genesis, God's a hurting parent. Yes, he is. I mean, there's Adam and Eve. We are all prodigals. Yep, yep, we're all prodigals, and he's gotta deal with us. And things got messy early on in all of creation, and with humanity. And so I realized that I had a friend, somebody who did understand what the pain of having a prodigal is, and somebody who I could trust, walking through it.

33:35 Genesis, I think in six, I don't know what verse it is, we talked about the thoughts and intents of man's heart, were continually wicked all the time, and God was grieved to his heart. That's what we walk through. Yeah. You know, we grieve, and he knows it. And he knows it. It's, if we can realize he's not just a God up there who is looking down and shaking his head, though he has plenty of reason to, but he understands, because he's been there himself. And what a beautiful thought.

34:15 Yeah, it was very helpful. One of the things I'd be interested to hear from you is the difference, my observation is the moms, the women, are much more willing to come and look for help or to be talking about it. And as you said, you didn't wanna go and get the help. And yet dads needed a lot themselves, but the child needs for the dad to get the help too. So how did you all work through that, or what did you learn in that?

34:56 I can't speak for men in the sense, factually. It's partly, I think that, in my opinion, is they don't know what to do. They're probably frustrated they can't fix it. Maybe even feel, I mean, I felt awful, though it was out of my control, that I didn't protect Renee. I mean, I felt awful, though it was out of my control, that I didn't protect Renee better. And I think, and when you're dealing with a prodigal in so many cases, it's so expensive.

35:36 If you have to deal with treatment centers or counseling or a number of hospital bills. Yes, the hospital bills. And so I think it's easy to say, this is how I'll deal with it. I'll throw myself into work because we need the money. And that's my contribution into this. Now again, I don't have any facts or anything to back that up, it's totally speculative. But I think that that may be part of it. I don't know if it's just part of manhood that we're slower to these things. Well, wanting to be stronger, maybe, and think I don't need that as much.

36:17 But watching you and Dina, which I've gotten to do, it's been a beautiful thing to see the work that God has done. And that you've been pretty open and honest about it. So I've heard some of the stories that you've just said about going up the stairs and wanting to slam the door, but at least resisting. And I can remember with our son that I would yell at him, because it's like, quit doing this. And learning to be more mature adults and able to manage our own emotions so that we can have a chance to help that person manage their emotions.

37:06 And I've loved to see how you and Dina have done that. And grateful. I think we realized that our health would, our overall health was gonna be vital. Because what if Renee decided to come back and want to live the life with Christ and embrace all of that? And we were the mess. So we realized that that was very, very important to try to stay healthy in all areas of our lives that we could. So that we would be in a position to receive her back.

37:50 And you have. Yes, yes we have. We have. We're very, very fortunate. Not the way we wanted, but it certainly has had the results that we'd hoped for. That's beautiful. I'm glad to, I'd love to watch it and to see what's happening. So let me just let you summarize a little some of the most important things. If some dad comes to you and says, what do I need to know? What's the first thing I need to know? What's the most important? What can't I do?

38:30 What should I do? Those kinds of things. I know you don't wanna give advice, but you can speak from your own experience. I think the love, loving unconditionally. You can't escape the verse, God manifested his love for us and while we were yet sinners, Christ tied for us. That's so powerful. Not waiting for us to clean our act up or get ourselves straight before coming to him, but doing it regardless of our response. It's there for us, it's a taking. And so I think that's, regardless of their response, we communicate that to them and let them know that repeatedly.

39:13 And I think also to let them know they're welcome home. Again, if they want to live a wholesome life, you know, a productive life, that they would have a place to come back to. And I think build a relationship. You know, obviously if you're married, focus on your marriage, don't let it deteriorate, but actually make it grow. And that's time, because you're gonna need each other through that. If you're not married, if there's a special person in your life, guard that relationship because you need the friendship. You need that support.

39:53 Having some clear boundaries, again, that you can be united on. And explain them clearly, let them know what those are. And do it in a calm way. As you mentioned, the tone, the attitude, the volume of the voice is so important. That's a hard lesson for me to learn. I struggle with that a lot. But I think that's a good one. So if somebody who's listening is saying, help, I need help, how do I get it? How would they get in touch with you? Our website, hopeforhurtingparents.com would be a good place to start.

40:37 Dina sends out encouraging emails, free five days a week, three days a week, one day a week, your preference. Those were very helpful. Dina has written a lot of really good stuff. Very helpful. Yes, God has really gifted her, and she's using those gifts very well. Also, I think if there are resources that we put on our website, that we've just come across as we've trying to figure out whether it's a treatment center or other organizations that might be very helpful. We came across situations where maybe like an adoptive parent, we don't have that situation.

41:19 It's unique, I think, and they might want an adoptive parent community, and so we have resources for that. Different books, we've gone through, we've tried to find a lot of broad range issue books. They're on the website as well. So we try to put a lot in there that people could go to. And in some situations, we may know of someone else who knows. Right. And so that's, we can refer to. But I'm the one who always sends them to you all. And we'll send them on to somebody else. So I wanna just kinda wrap up with some thoughts on the importance of your relationship with God through this.

42:03 Yes. I think of my relationship with God, scripture, prayer, and a supportive community, those are the types of things that we both, Dina and I, take us through this hard and painful journey. I was angry with God initially. I didn't understand. But I think sometimes people say like, oh God, you didn't intervene here, you didn't do this. I'm done with you. And I think, no, you know what, I'm not done. The relationship is not like that.

42:44 The relationship is not being broken. It's strained maybe right now, or maybe I'm a little ticked off at you right now, but I'm not gonna disconnect from you. And so honestly, sometimes it was hard to pray. Sometimes it was hard to open up the Bible. But what I did do is, I love creation. I love God's creation. I just think it's wonderful, it's beautiful. So many things in it is just marvelous, and mystifying, and exciting. And so I would just relish in creation. I would see the things, and that would help me praise him. That would help me to thank him. That would help me to be more grateful for what I was going through.

43:25 And over time, we worked through my anger and disappointment. Well, but that's no surprise that there's anger and disappointment. When you mentioned thanking him and being grateful, that was a huge turning point for me that has changed my life ever since, to learn to say thank you, even when things are not the way I want them. And to be grateful that he gives us free will to make our choices, and he doesn't make us puppets. But that means that loved one of ours also has free will.

44:06 And you say, why didn't you stop it, God? Well, because that's not the way I work. But he's always working. He's always working. And I love how Dina and her writing, and how you, as you, the message I've heard you giving that became this book, more or less, is full of God's word, and the fact that he's the one who takes you through this. He's a constant companion. He doesn't just say, good luck, you can do it. No, he's right there with you.

44:46 And that's been clear. And I just hope that our readers, and especially the dads who are listening, are realizing that the Lord is there, and that he's been there for you. You've been like any normal person, you've had to struggle through it. And so I just believe that, one, as they listen to this podcast, you're gonna be giving them hope, and a recognition of, oh, I can make it. Now, that doesn't negate the fact that there's a lot of pain involved, and disappointment, and hurt, and confusion, all those things.

45:31 And yet, God has allowed you to have some clarity on some of these things, and to grow. I just thank God all the time for the gift of our messed up son, because I have grown so much as a result, and I know that that's what you would say as well. Yes, definitely. I think there's certain lessons that God needs to teach us that I think will only come through pain, and humility being one of them. So yes, while it's not a journey I would have chosen, I wouldn't trade the growth or the lessons in the places that he's taken me through it.

46:15 Yeah, that's great. Any other things you wanna say? Think of the dad who would be calling you and saying, help, anything else? Well, not only repeating, I would say if you don't have a relationship with God through Christ, consider that seriously. If you do get into the word, scriptures were so helpful. And scriptures that you may have read a hundred times took on different impact and meaning, because your context, everything changed. I go, whoa, that verse really came alive more. And also I think if your children have been exposed to scripture, it's a good prayer.

47:04 I would pray so often, God bring scripture to Renee, bring memories of good times with good people, and bring those back to her, even at the time when she doesn't want them the most. And he did, she told me. That's beautiful. So, yeah, scripture's so powerful in prayer. Yes, I agree with that. So, well, Tom, thank you. Thank you so much for coming and being willing to be honest and vulnerable so that others could look at their journey in maybe a better light than they had and have hope, and really be willing to get help, maybe come to you for some help, or at least get your book and read it, because there's a lot of good stuff in here.

48:05 And don't forget, we're gonna be giving away two of them, and you can join that. So, you can buy this book anywhere the books are sold. June 15th. June 15th. They'll be released. And that's right around when this will air. Now, to my listeners, I want you to think a minute. Even as you've listened to Tom tell his story, and the hard journey, and the good that has come from it, even though it's not been easy, what stood out to you? What do you think of that really applies to you right now?

48:48 Was it to protect your marriage? Was it to calmly and with love set those boundaries and consequences? Was it to maintain relationship? To lower your voice? Whatever. Think, and just what is it that God's saying to you right now that something you can do, a new idea to try, a decision to get some help, whatever God said to you during this little bit of time that we've had. Thank you so much, Tom. God bless you, and God bless you, all my listeners.

49:30 He has wonderful surprises for you.