When the Prodigal is Your Brother - Interview with Michelle Essary (episode 30)

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Today, you're going to hear the true story of what it's like to live with the prodigal

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when the prodigal is your brother.

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Do you love a prodigal?

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Do you feel like you are lost in a scary and endless wilderness?

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Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast.

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I am Judy Douglass, and I spent more than 15 years in that wilderness.

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I believe together we will discover help and hope for your journey.

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Well, welcome back to When You Love a Prodigal.

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I am so glad that you're here.

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I hope you enjoyed the four-week series on trust, and it gave you a much bigger picture

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of why God is trustworthy and how you can trust Him even on this journey with a prodigal.

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Even though it's hard and scary and unpredictable, God's still there, and He's still on your

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side and your prodigals, and He's there for you, and you can trust Him.

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Today, though, we have a wonderful time.

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We are interviewing Michelle Essary.

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Michelle is very qualified to come and talk with us.

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She's a licensed mental health counselor, has been for quite a number of years.

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She's had leadership responsibilities and now has her own counseling practice and business,

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which she'll mention later.

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I think she will have great advice, but there's another reason why I'm excited to have Michelle.

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Michelle is my daughter, and that means she's not just my daughter, and a very wonderful

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one at that.

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She's also the sister of our prodigal, and so she was there for much of the journey.

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She was a little ahead, though not much older, ahead of him, and so she went off to college

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when some of the worst things were happening.

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But she has a lot of insight, so we're going to be doing this session on what it's like

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to live in a family with a prodigal, to be the sibling.

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And then next week, we'll be doing one where she comes, brings some of her professional

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experience in to be of help to us.

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So thank you.

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Welcome, Michelle.

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I'm glad to be here.

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So we'll just jump right in.

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So we came and said to you one day, what would you think if we brought a boy as a foster

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child into our home?

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What would you think?

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What would your response be?

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And tell us about your thoughts and feelings and what you said, if you remember.

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Well, it was funny.

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I was preparing for this and thinking, my memory is a little fuzzy on a few of the things.

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I believe I was about nine when we first started this conversation.

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That's right.

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And so I do have a little bit of a fuzzy memory on a few of the very early, exactly what I

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said, you might remember a little better than I do.

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But what I remember thinking was that I was glad that we were able to help somebody.

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And it seemed like when you came to us that you had really prayed and considered it.

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And so I trusted your judgment in it that this was something that the Lord had, or you

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wouldn't have brought it to us to begin with.

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And so I don't remember the words I said, maybe you do.

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Do you remember the words I said in those moments?

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And those, I remember several things you said.

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In those moments, you basically said, I think this is a wonderful thing for us to do.

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That sounds like, that sounds like about what I'm hearing.

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That sounds like you.

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That sounds like me.

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You know, I really didn't have a lot of reservation.

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I think I also didn't have a very full picture of what it looks like to invite someone who

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has a history that is so different than yours into your home with you and how that might

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change circumstances.

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But I was supportive of it.

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Well, we're grateful, though I'm sure all of us sometimes were hesitant and pondering.

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So Josh came in to our family.

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You were in, I believe so.

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I think by the time he came to live with us, I was in fifth grade.

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I was 10 and he was nine when he came to live with us.

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Right, only he was almost 10 because he's only a few months younger than you are.

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So then all of a sudden this kid who is very different and has a really hard background

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and no requirements and boundaries in his life basically, what was it like?

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What did you think or feel?

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Can you remember that?

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You know, initially I didn't have a lot of connection or attachment to him.

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I felt glad to have him.

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I felt fine.

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It felt almost like we were hosting him for a little while, not like he was part of the

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family for a bit.

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And I think just go, I went about my own life.

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Not much changed immediately, in my opinion.

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He had a lot of needs, but I think even he still was a little inhibited in those first,

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even that first year, I don't know that he let out fully everything that was going on.

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He didn't feel comfortable.

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He was pretty contained and protected even in himself, is my memory of it.

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Like a wall built around him?

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Because nobody had consistently been there for him.

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The ones who really had were his grandparents, but when it came time to finding a home for

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him, they really weren't able to do that.

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And so he just was like, nobody's ever been there for me.

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And he loved his birth mother.

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He really did love her.

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And that actually impacted us for a long time.

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But he just was sure that we were just going to, he'd be there a while and then we'd send

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him off because we wouldn't like him or we just weren't trustworthy.

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Or he just didn't know, so he didn't let himself be open.

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Out.

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Yes.

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He wouldn't let us.

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That's my memory also.

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So it was not terrible at first.

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It was just a little challenging.

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He certainly had a lot of issues at school, but it was increasingly hard for him.

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He was in trouble at school quite a bit.

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Not big trouble, but enough that the last year we were at the Christian school we were

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in, he and two other boys were in trouble enough that they actually pulled them out

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of their class and gave them their own little class with a teacher.

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And I thought, all right, that's really wonderfully sensitive that they're not handling life in

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the regular school, but it's also rewarding their behavior.

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How fun to have this fun teacher who's, you know, so he made it through that grade.

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So when they terminated his mother's rights, they came to us and said, he's now up for

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adoption and you have first choice.

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And your dad and I talked quite a bit and had different feelings about it.

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It's like, this has been hard.

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Do we really want to sign up for this permanently?

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Do we want that?

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But you know, your dad had some reservations because he was taking a lot of my time.

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Like you know, I did an hour of work with him every day to repattern his brain exercises.

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And that was an hour a day for the first year and a half until he refused to do it anymore.

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But anyway, there were just, you know, reservations of signing up for it.

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So we came to you and your sister and I think we asked you first, what do you think if we

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adopt him?

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Do you remember what you said?

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I don't remember exactly.

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Something to the effect of if we don't, who would?

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Like we seemed like the right choice.

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I think your most exact I can remember words where, well, I'm not sure that we want to

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keep him.

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But I wouldn't want to be the one to reject him and make it one more rejection in his

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life and ruin the rest of his life.

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You said those words.

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I thought, boy, that's pretty young, 12 years old, to really get the impact it could have

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on his life if we had said no.

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I think by that point, if I'm kind of going through the story chronologically in my own

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mind, by that point, I had seen the impact that it was beginning to have.

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In that first year, again, he felt kind of guarded.

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It felt almost like we were hosting.

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It wasn't the same as having somebody be a part of the family.

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But as his needs began to emerge and as the mess began to kind of spill out into our family,

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I think one of the most significant things that I noticed was how much demand it put

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on you and dad, some, but mostly you.

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And the impact that then in turn had on me, and I know that we might talk about that more

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later, but it was in those couple of years, I want to say moving into middle school that

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I realized the demand that he requires of my mom is significant and it doesn't enable

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her to have the strength, energy, emotional capacity to deal with quite as much on our

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side.

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And so I began to see some of that impact pretty, I remember specific instances where

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I thought, wow, that is really impacting her and that's preventing her from being as available

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for me as a result.

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And so when you asked the question about adoption, I think I had a greater understanding, which

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doesn't surprise, I don't remember the exact words, but to say, I'm not sure if I want

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to keep it.

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That's how I mean, that's a side.

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No, at that point, it has gotten more difficult.

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And those things were becoming more apparent.

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And I think I realized going into this was not going to be just like hosting somebody

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or having someone stay at our house.

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You know, I think I really began to understand probably as I matured, but then also as I

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saw the impact on the family and what it was doing specifically, I really do think specifically

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to you, it had the most impact.

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Oh, I'm sure that that's true.

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But I think it did affect you and your sister.

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We'll talk about that in just a minute.

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But I will tell you what Debbie said, in case you don't remember that as well.

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Now, Debbie and Josh had not bonded much at all.

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You were a more compassionate person at that period of time.

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She is now but wasn't as a 14 year old.

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And she really could care less if actually she'd rather he weren't there, I think.

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And so, you know, dad's saying it now we're going to have an impasse here.

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Mom and Michelle think we should and Debbie and dad think maybe we shouldn't.

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But Debbie said these most amazing words.

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She says, we just need to suffer gladly.

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God sent him to us.

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He must have things to teach us.

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And all of us even all of us went, what did you say?

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Because you know, Debbie wasn't at that place in her life to have those thoughts really.

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And yet God used it as a turning point, a confirmation for your dad as well as for me

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and you all that, all right, this was of God, we will do this and trust him through it,

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having no idea what was ahead really.

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And so it was a thought through decision one I felt guided well by God.

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So you all moved from a Christian school.

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Again, you're two grades ahead of him.

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You're only a few months older than he is.

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And we went to, you all were in the same middle school.

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And he started to get in trouble.

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Did you even know he was getting in trouble?

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I mean, yes, I had awareness that he was getting in trouble.

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Interestingly, it didn't impact my social circle all that much.

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I really enjoyed moving from a private school to a public school because of the just kind

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of amount of exposure to different kinds of things.

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I think I was really excited about that at that stage in life.

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I think he also had exposure to all different kinds of things.

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But his response to it may have been slightly different than mine.

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I did know he was getting in trouble at school.

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And I think as I was considering this coming into this interview, I don't know that I think

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each sibling is going to respond a little differently based on personality.

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And I think for me, I do and I think you can speak to this.

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You've known me my whole life.

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I think I've in general done an okay job at separating my stuff from other people's stuff

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and not being as impacted by his behavior as a reflection of me.

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It didn't feel like that to me.

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But I began to be concerned for him on occasion.

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We didn't have the opportunity to see each other on campus a whole lot.

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But when I did, I would stop him.

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I would check in after school.

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I would check in on him.

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And I felt a bit like I began to be concerned for him more than I was concerned for his

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impact on my reputation.

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I think having enough separation, I recognized he's my brother, he's not me.

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People didn't seem to judge me differently based on him.

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I don't know that they even knew we were siblings, but it was a pretty big school.

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But I did begin to be concerned.

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You know, that was about the time he started getting in.

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I want to say he got involved in gangs starting that year.

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Some gang behavior and some just getting in fights being with people that weren't great

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influences.

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And so I began to worry about him a little bit more and maybe even take on a bit of responsibility

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more than I had in the past, which I recognize did not try and take your role, but certainly

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began to feel responsible for him quite a bit more than I had in the past.

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Well, one of the things I noticed, Michelle, was that in the next years, and it was quite

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a few years you were home observing what was going on and how things got worse and worse

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for him with the interruptions that came.

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The time that he was at House of Hope was over a year where he lived there.

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But we even went to House of Hope as a family.

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And I went every week, but you and Debbie would come sometime because one of their objectives

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was to build the family relationship.

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And I noticed that you did that well.

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You had a relationship with him.

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And even in the harder times in high school, even when he would tell me, well, you know,

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Michelle's not as good as you think she is, to the protection, you know, saying I'm not

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the only one, you know.

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But you and he managed a relationship, as I observed.

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And I don't know if you really thought about that or could comment on it.

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I mean, we are very similar in age.

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So it would be very difficult if we did not have a relationship, it would be obvious.

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00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,840
Even though we were grades apart and there were a number of things that were different.

233
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We were in a lot of ways, we had a lot of things in common.

234
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,120
We did know some of the same people.

235
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,920
We had a lot of we were at the same place, like developmentally, that's the counselor

236
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:43,400
talking I know in hindsight.

237
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:49,560
But and, you know, like I did, I did make mistakes through high school.

238
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:55,040
I did, you know, figure myself out a little, make some poor choices here and there.

239
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,200
And I think he appreciated that I wasn't perfect.

240
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,640
I'm sure he appreciated that you weren't perfect.

241
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,360
But he wanted to make sure I knew it.

242
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,800
He wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't perfect.

243
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,480
It's not all that helpful to compare because I don't think he would have come on the upside

244
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,960
on that if he had done.

245
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,520
I think it was helpful for him to see that I did not do things perfectly.

246
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,280
I think that was a divisive thing for him to feel like I was better than him.

247
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,380
And then for him to feel like I was not seemed to really bring us together.

248
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:34,080
Even though, you know, what I would call poor decisions in my own life were probably much

249
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:41,800
less than pure and not as impactful as some of the decisions that he made over the years.

250
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:48,220
I think it was a good thing to have enough common ground, both in age and in development

251
00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:53,520
and in figuring out life that it we were able to build a relationship.

252
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,400
I didn't hold him to a lot of standards.

253
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,240
I had the benefit of not being his parent, so I didn't have to.

254
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,540
I mean, apart from helping wake him up in the morning and making sure he didn't get

255
00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:04,040
beat up every now and then.

256
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,280
I was much bigger than me at this point.

257
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,280
I don't know about.

258
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,320
He was much bigger than me at this point.

259
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,200
So I don't know that it was much of an impact except that people seem to respect that I

260
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,480
was older.

261
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:23,800
In general, I think it helped us to not have to he didn't have to prove anything to me.

262
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,480
And I think he realized that I wasn't I didn't expect much of him that was different, you

263
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,840
know, that I didn't I didn't expect him to be something else.

264
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,320
Is that an is that an adequate answer for you?

265
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,100
That's a that's a that's fine.

266
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:38,100
That's good.

267
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:45,960
That's just helpful for people to to understand when you have someone in your family who's

268
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:52,040
making some poor choices, that there's going to be some tensions between the siblings.

269
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:59,200
And I know many, many of my listeners are fearful when they have a prodigal making some

270
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,120
really bad choices.

271
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,280
If they're in the home, what that impact say younger children.

272
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,560
And and so to realize it's possible to build a relationship.

273
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,920
You had more maturity than some people.

274
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,480
He really connected with your friends who came to live with us.

275
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,760
Oh, oh, yeah.

276
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,120
He also was probably slightly motivated by the fact that I had friends who were girls

277
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,360
who were around his age.

278
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:29,920
Certainly that had an impact.

279
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:37,140
I will add, though, you know, we we spoke earlier about my response in middle school

280
00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:43,000
going into adoption, recognizing some of the demand on you specifically.

281
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,960
And dad's job was demanding at that time, too.

282
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,380
I mean, he was still demanded of and Josh, but I feel like you you bore more of the brunt

283
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:53,400
of it because of your your role in it.

284
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:58,840
I think when some of that began to happen, me personally and my personality, I began

285
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:05,600
to back up quite a bit more and and just not isolate because I don't feel like I isolated,

286
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,560
but become more independent.

287
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,520
I think part of my ability to see him and maybe even try and take care of him.

288
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,600
Some was part of that adultified role.

289
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,800
Again, I'm a counselor, so maybe I oversee things.

290
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,760
But I think what was interesting is as I began to move into more independence, that probably

291
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:32,040
did influence how and when I made choices and decisions about trying new things, meeting

292
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,640
new people, perhaps sooner than some people would.

293
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:42,600
So I do think if I'm honest about it, his presence had an impact on when I made poor

294
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:50,280
choices or good choices or developed into trying to be an adult in more situations,

295
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,280
right?

296
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,800
Be on my own, be more independent for better or for worse.

297
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,220
I think there's pros and cons to that.

298
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:59,040
But it did impact me that way because of my personality.

299
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,040
That was my tendency was to pull back.

300
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,200
I didn't openly rebel.

301
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,880
I didn't fight you guys very much.

302
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,520
I don't believe anyway, not really.

303
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,440
But what I what I tended to more was to back up and say, OK, I'm going to be my own person.

304
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,680
I'm going to do this on my own.

305
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:19,600
There's some benefits and some challenges to that at an early age.

306
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,920
So here's the big question.

307
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:29,600
So tell me what you think your parents did well and where they could have done better.

308
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,720
I feel like this is what's interesting about this.

309
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,680
And you could probably do this interview with Debbie also, and she would have very different

310
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200
answers.

311
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,040
Even as I've talked with her in hindsight over the years, not recently, she would say

312
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,040
things differently.

313
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,040
Her experience was different.

314
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,840
She was a couple of years older.

315
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:57,840
I think the recognition of the displacement it caused, you didn't realize until later.

316
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:03,280
And so I think knowing more of that on the front end might have changed a few of your

317
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,240
intentional behaviors.

318
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,000
Not that you would have had a ton more capacity, not that you would have had a ton more ability

319
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,920
or emotional strength to be able to deal with it.

320
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:18,760
But I think in hindsight, you were greater able to see how adding Josh in some ways displaced

321
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,440
me in some capacities.

322
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:27,560
And so I think had you seen that on the front end or known that going in, and maybe that's

323
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:33,320
why it's helpful for people here to hear that, it does have an impact of that if you are

324
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,440
not aware of it and consciously fighting against it.

325
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,200
I think you all did a great job of continuing to participate in all of our activities.

326
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,680
I didn't feel like you didn't try to be present, that you didn't try and be there, that you

327
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:51,240
weren't active, wanting me to do the things I wanted to do, supportive of my activities.

328
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,880
You did all of those things.

329
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,000
Those things were very good.

330
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,320
And I didn't feel like I was neglected or not able, none of those things were true.

331
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,920
I felt like you are being very intentional to try and set time aside, but the natural

332
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,520
tendency of the just the energy and emotion and everything that he required took some

333
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,720
time, yes, but also in addition to that took just all of those energy away a little more

334
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,800
than I think.

335
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,800
At the time, I think you knew it, but in hindsight, I think you saw it more clearly.

336
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:24,880
And I would say the same for me.

337
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,440
I don't know that I saw it happening until after I was like, oh, this has really changed

338
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,080
our family dynamic.

339
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:39,000
And so I think you all made really good intentions to make sure to be there for me in the practical

340
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000
ways.

341
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:47,680
But I think in the emotional and just capacity, it was diminished by the fact that he was

342
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,680
there.

343
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,440
And I think that those would be kind of flip sides of the same thing, if that makes sense.

344
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,440
Do you agree?

345
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,440
It does.

346
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,960
I do agree.

347
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:06,320
And you know, I don't know, looking back, what I would have done to change it, because

348
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,460
his needs were doing well.

349
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:11,640
You were doing really well.

350
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,480
Debbie had her challenges.

351
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:19,520
She was a little more overt about what she was doing.

352
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:26,140
But to me, you all were still both able to function and do well.

353
00:24:26,140 --> 00:24:31,160
You were doing well in school, you know, well, except for, you know, taking doing homework.

354
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,160
I didn't do homework.

355
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,800
I know.

356
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:45,080
And so that at least stabbed my conscience if I recognized I was giving more attention

357
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,120
to Josh than to either of you.

358
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,880
And you would have felt it even more than Debbie because she left to go to college and

359
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,640
you were still there for two more years.

360
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,320
And that's when it really got hard.

361
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:06,560
But at the same time, I kept thinking, we're here to save this boy's life.

362
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,160
Because when we looked at how he was living and the choices he made and the friends he

363
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,820
connected with, all we could see was jail or dead as his future.

364
00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:19,600
And I don't think that's hyperbole.

365
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,800
I think that's very real.

366
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,300
What was quite possible.

367
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:30,400
And so I know Debbie one time said, why do you let him get away with so many things?

368
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,540
I said, Debbie, I could be on him every day all day for the little things as well as the

369
00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:36,540
big things.

370
00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,960
I said, I have to choose to focus on the ones that will save his life.

371
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,200
Not every single thing.

372
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,760
And I know we expect more of you and of Michelle.

373
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,720
But you're also capable of making better choices than he seems to be capable of.

374
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,960
And so I'm sure we could have done lots more better.

375
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:04,800
And if you have any other thoughts, because this isn't for my sake, this is for my listeners.

376
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,640
What could be helpful to parents?

377
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040
I think one of the things you just said hits on what we were talking about earlier when

378
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,840
I said I kind of pulled back and adultified a little, right?

379
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,560
I stepped into my own independent role a little more quickly.

380
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,400
I think even you saying that is kind of more of the I realized I could let you step into

381
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:28,120
that and it wasn't going to harm you too badly versus he might do serious harm to himself.

382
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:37,480
So you were making choices based on the weight of what was most critical at the moment.

383
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,440
Which again, I don't think I want you to hear me say I don't think I ever faulted you for

384
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,400
any of that or either of you.

385
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,840
I think I saw it and understood what was happening also, at least in part, maybe more in hindsight.

386
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,720
But it's certainly those choices to and I agree.

387
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,800
I remember one instance when you called maybe I was in college at this point, maybe I was

388
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,600
in high school and you said, well, Josh has been hit by a semi truck.

389
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:11,000
And I was like, okay, thinking that feels like it's par for the course.

390
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Is he alive?

391
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,000
Is he not?

392
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,840
That was kind of the question I always had in my mind.

393
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,200
Am I going to get a call from you all at some point that says, hey, this happened and he

394
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,720
didn't survive?

395
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:20,720
I agree with you.

396
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,720
I feel like that was always a possibility in my mind.

397
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,320
Not that I didn't live in fear of that, but I had this.

398
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,360
No, I know you didn't, but I did to some degree.

399
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:39,500
And I have figured out I'm something of a rescuer.

400
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:46,100
And so the thought that I could fail to do my part to salvage this person, that God's

401
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:48,520
entrusted to us.

402
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:55,280
And I didn't always feel like we were adequate for what he gave us, but he came through.

403
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,760
Wait, I have one more thing to throw in there.

404
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,800
And I think this is relevant for people of all.

405
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,280
I think this is relevant for people of all stages of this.

406
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,480
You have developed over the years.

407
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,200
This is going to sound funny for me to say this to you because you're my mother, but

408
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,960
you have developed over the years a greater ability to be outside of the situation with

409
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:19,960
Josh.

410
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:26,440
I think for a while, even in our conversations, it was difficult for things to be about me,

411
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,040
or even about you some.

412
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,640
It became very much about Josh a lot.

413
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,120
And part of that was because the severity of it all the time.

414
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:37,240
It's kind of like what happens in the news now, right?

415
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,340
The things that are always on everybody's talking about because it's what's going on.

416
00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:47,060
And it's hard to not talk about that because it's such a significant thing.

417
00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:53,440
But I did think, again, in hindsight, but I did feel this over the years, sometimes

418
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,880
it was hard to want to call and spend a lot of time talking because the conversation revolves

419
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,680
so much, so solely on whatever major issue was happening with him.

420
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:10,160
And I think that's something that even if I wanted to express to your listeners, that's

421
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,520
something you have some control over, right?

422
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:18,600
Even though that's true and that is happening, to be aware of the needs of this other person

423
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:19,600
are here too.

424
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,780
And I'll say as kids in general, and this is true for my kids too, they want me to care

425
00:29:24,780 --> 00:29:26,400
about what's going on with them.

426
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,520
And they want to be able to talk about what's going on with them.

427
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,240
And they want me to leave time for them.

428
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,280
And I don't always do that well with my own kids even.

429
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,760
But I think you have realized that over the years and have started to be more intentional

430
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,160
and remedy that, that we can have conversations about what's going on with both of us at this

431
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,160
stage.

432
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,880
And that's a little bit different than what we were able to do for a long time.

433
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,480
But even into adulthood, there was a fair amount of time that every time I called, there

434
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:51,480
was something going on with Josh.

435
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,240
And that became what we talked about.

436
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,240
I'm sorry.

437
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,600
That you don't know.

438
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,560
I know, but I am.

439
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,800
You look back, you want to have done everything you could right for your kids.

440
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:09,400
And where most of us don't have the capacity to do everything right for every child.

441
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Absolutely not.

442
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,160
And so you do what you can.

443
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:21,520
And gratefully, things are so much different with Josh now.

444
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640
But his life is still challenging.

445
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,920
And I do still want to hear about him, FYI.

446
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,920
That doesn't make it.

447
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,000
I know, and you do.

448
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,080
But not nearly as much because I don't talk to him very much because he's too busy working.

449
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,960
And he does and family issues and stuff for him.

450
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:44,480
So what do you think you have learned and what or has God taught you or has really impacted

451
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,200
your life through this?

452
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,400
You know, maybe I've said this in your presence.

453
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,400
Maybe I haven't.

454
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,480
But I don't know that I would do what I'm doing.

455
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,480
Maybe I would.

456
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,840
You know, we've talked about my personality leans this direction anyway.

457
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,520
But I'm not sure that I would have gotten into counseling or even been stretched to

458
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,900
deal with things at the depth and capacity that I was were it not for our experience

459
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:06,900
with Josh.

460
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:13,840
I think his presence in our family, the changes that produced in our family gave me one, it

461
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,200
forced me to deal with more serious and real things.

462
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,480
Up until that point, we really had lived in a bit of a bubble, especially when it comes

463
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,440
to Christianity and like our safe zone.

464
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,320
And so we didn't anymore.

465
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,400
Our bubble was gone in a couple of ways.

466
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,920
But in a good way, and I'm using that as a positive, I think it forced me to have to

467
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,560
consider things and deal with things and grow.

468
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,000
And even though I know I mentioned earlier about the stepping into adulthood, there have

469
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:49,880
been some real benefits of being forced to consider real issues at a time when I think

470
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,740
I have the capacity to do it at least to some degree.

471
00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:59,440
And it has given me greater ability to be compassionate and empathic with others, which

472
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680
has made it possible for me to do my job.

473
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,360
That's great.

474
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,880
So what is your relationship with Josh?

475
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,040
I mean, I think we have a fine relationship.

476
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,840
Honestly, we don't communicate very much.

477
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:18,000
But that's based on circumstance, not on lack of relationship or poor relationship.

478
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,520
When we get to get I love him, I think he loves me.

479
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,560
He would say that, which is significant.

480
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,680
And you know, we text on occasion, we send a funny thing every now and then.

481
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,880
He's not a great communicator.

482
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,400
I've actually been thinking I should start just communicating with his wife or if I want

483
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,040
to get pictures and things because he's not great at it.

484
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,600
I get pictures from his wife.

485
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,040
So in general, though, I think we're in a fine place, right?

486
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,040
Like I don't feel major tension.

487
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,440
I feel like we have a good healthy relationship.

488
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,720
I feel like we have a normal adult relationship for people who are very far from each other

489
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,920
and don't have a lot of time to connect.

490
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,880
I think if we were in the similar place, we'd probably spend time together and enjoy each

491
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,880
other's company.

492
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,280
But I don't know, I think we get along.

493
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,280
I think we care about each other.

494
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:11,000
I don't feel like there's there's resentment or tension on either person's part.

495
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,000
That's good.

496
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,000
That's good.

497
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,000
And I that's what I would observe.

498
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Yeah, I think that's true.

499
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:17,560
One last question.

500
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:26,160
What would you say to other families who are living through this kind of prodigal wilderness

501
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,920
impact or input for parents or siblings?

502
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,400
I think and this is one part counselor, one part me.

503
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,440
That's OK.

504
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,960
Not to be buried by the guilt and shame.

505
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:46,360
I know you said this a minute ago, but not a single person can do everything perfectly.

506
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,360
And I don't know that there is a standard for perfection that we could even hold someone

507
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,360
to in this.

508
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,360
Right.

509
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,900
Like this is part of this.

510
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:55,640
My experience, maybe I'll speak from my experience.

511
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,040
My experience is that, you know, things are broken.

512
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,380
And when you're dealing with somebody who has experienced a lot of brokenness and is

513
00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:07,240
pretty broken themselves, there's not an expectation that that brokenness isn't going to impact

514
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,240
the people around them.

515
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:11,400
And that brokenness then impacts others.

516
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,920
But that impact has that positive and the negative.

517
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:14,920
Right.

518
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,800
And it doesn't do us any good to sit there in guilt and shame about it.

519
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,000
There's enough things to worry about that that isn't helpful.

520
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:28,800
And so being able to say, I recognize that this is what happened where I to do it again,

521
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,040
I might do something differently.

522
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:35,480
So next time I'm going to try this instead is much more helpful than sitting there condemning

523
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,840
yourself or condemning them for the way that things have happened.

524
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:48,000
It is a dangerous thing to have an expectation of the circumstance or the person that is

525
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,120
unrealistic because you will inevitably be disappointed.

526
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,560
Like that.

527
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,040
And when there's a difference between reality and expectation, it's much easier to adjust

528
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,220
your expectation than it is to adjust the reality.

529
00:35:00,220 --> 00:35:01,220
That just takes more time.

530
00:35:01,220 --> 00:35:06,280
So just recognizing in this circumstance coming with humility and prayer is much more important

531
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,520
than having all the answers or doing it exactly right.

532
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,520
Because again, it's not like there's a standard.

533
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,560
It's not like a math problem where you can say if you do this plus this, it equals this.

534
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,520
Like that just isn't how it works with people and it isn't how it works in this world.

535
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:25,720
And so my encouragement would be letting go of the guilt and shame.

536
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:29,200
I'm sure there are many other things I could say, but I feel like that is maybe the most

537
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,200
important.

538
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,000
And if you have any more difficult stuff, I know you're going over in a lot of your

539
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,000
other podcasts.

540
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,000
Fantastic.

541
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,000
Thank you, Michelle.

542
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:41,720
I really appreciate your being open and honest and willing to talk about this.

543
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:49,160
And I really am praying for all of you who are listening that our conversation will help

544
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,760
you and your family as you walk through some of the hard times.

545
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,600
For some of you, it will be someone who is a foster child or adopted.

546
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:05,680
And for others of you, it will be your own born child or more than one even that bring

547
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,160
the tension and the struggle into your family.

548
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:16,480
And maybe our being willing to share some of this will be of help to you as you navigate.

549
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:24,840
And as Michelle said, cast aside the guilt and shame and look for the ways to go forward

550
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,240
and pray for sure.

551
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,440
So thank you, Michelle.

552
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,340
God bless you, every one of you.

553
00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:36,960
Thank you for joining me today on the When You Love a Prodigal Podcast.

554
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:44,400
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts

555
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,000
or wherever you listen.

556
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,320
Your review helps the show reach more people with the hope and encouragement of Jesus.

557
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,880
Don't forget, take a look at the show notes, and for more helpful information, resources,

558
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,880
and books, check out judydouglass.com.

559
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,760
That's Douglass with two S's.

560
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:14,040
You can find me on Facebook and on Twitter and Instagram at JudyDouglass417.

561
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:23,680
Until next week.