When the Prodigal is Your Brother - Interview with Michelle Essary (episode 30)

0:00 Today, you're going to hear the true story of what it's like to live with the prodigal when the prodigal is your brother. Do you love a prodigal? Do you feel like you are lost in a scary and endless wilderness? Welcome to the When You Love a Prodigal podcast. I am Judy Douglass, and I spent more than 15 years in that wilderness. I believe together we will discover help and hope for your journey. Well, welcome back to When You Love a Prodigal.

0:41 I am so glad that you're here. I hope you enjoyed the four-week series on trust, and it gave you a much bigger picture of why God is trustworthy and how you can trust Him even on this journey with a prodigal. Even though it's hard and scary and unpredictable, God's still there, and He's still on your side and your prodigals, and He's there for you, and you can trust Him. Today, though, we have a wonderful time. We are interviewing Michelle Essary. Michelle is very qualified to come and talk with us.

1:23 She's a licensed mental health counselor, has been for quite a number of years. She's had leadership responsibilities and now has her own counseling practice and business, which she'll mention later. I think she will have great advice, but there's another reason why I'm excited to have Michelle. Michelle is my daughter, and that means she's not just my daughter, and a very wonderful one at that. She's also the sister of our prodigal, and so she was there for much of the journey. She was a little ahead, though not much older, ahead of him, and so she went off to college when some of the worst things were happening.

2:12 But she has a lot of insight, so we're going to be doing this session on what it's like to live in a family with a prodigal, to be the sibling. And then next week, we'll be doing one where she comes, brings some of her professional experience in to be of help to us. So thank you. Welcome, Michelle. I'm glad to be here. So we'll just jump right in. So we came and said to you one day, what would you think if we brought a boy as a foster child into our home? What would you think?

2:52 What would your response be? And tell us about your thoughts and feelings and what you said, if you remember. Well, it was funny. I was preparing for this and thinking, my memory is a little fuzzy on a few of the things. I believe I was about nine when we first started this conversation. That's right. And so I do have a little bit of a fuzzy memory on a few of the very early, exactly what I said, you might remember a little better than I do. But what I remember thinking was that I was glad that we were able to help somebody. And it seemed like when you came to us that you had really prayed and considered it. And so I trusted your judgment in it that this was something that the Lord had, or you wouldn't have brought it to us to begin with.

3:38 And so I don't remember the words I said, maybe you do. Do you remember the words I said in those moments? And those, I remember several things you said. In those moments, you basically said, I think this is a wonderful thing for us to do. That sounds like, that sounds like about what I'm hearing. That sounds like you. That sounds like me. You know, I really didn't have a lot of reservation. I think I also didn't have a very full picture of what it looks like to invite someone who has a history that is so different than yours into your home with you and how that might change circumstances. But I was supportive of it. Well, we're grateful, though I'm sure all of us sometimes were hesitant and pondering.

4:23 So Josh came in to our family. You were in, I believe so. I think by the time he came to live with us, I was in fifth grade. I was 10 and he was nine when he came to live with us. Right, only he was almost 10 because he's only a few months younger than you are. So then all of a sudden this kid who is very different and has a really hard background and no requirements and boundaries in his life basically, what was it like? What did you think or feel? Can you remember that?

5:03 You know, initially I didn't have a lot of connection or attachment to him. I felt glad to have him. I felt fine. It felt almost like we were hosting him for a little while, not like he was part of the family for a bit. And I think just go, I went about my own life. Not much changed immediately, in my opinion. He had a lot of needs, but I think even he still was a little inhibited in those first, even that first year, I don't know that he let out fully everything that was going on. He didn't feel comfortable. He was pretty contained and protected even in himself, is my memory of it.

5:45 Like a wall built around him? Because nobody had consistently been there for him. The ones who really had were his grandparents, but when it came time to finding a home for him, they really weren't able to do that. And so he just was like, nobody's ever been there for me. And he loved his birth mother. He really did love her. And that actually impacted us for a long time. But he just was sure that we were just going to, he'd be there a while and then we'd send him off because we wouldn't like him or we just weren't trustworthy.

6:27 Or he just didn't know, so he didn't let himself be open. Out. Yes. He wouldn't let us. That's my memory also. So it was not terrible at first. It was just a little challenging. He certainly had a lot of issues at school, but it was increasingly hard for him. He was in trouble at school quite a bit. Not big trouble, but enough that the last year we were at the Christian school we were in, he and two other boys were in trouble enough that they actually pulled them out of their class and gave them their own little class with a teacher.

7:11 And I thought, all right, that's really wonderfully sensitive that they're not handling life in the regular school, but it's also rewarding their behavior. How fun to have this fun teacher who's, you know, so he made it through that grade. So when they terminated his mother's rights, they came to us and said, he's now up for adoption and you have first choice. And your dad and I talked quite a bit and had different feelings about it. It's like, this has been hard. Do we really want to sign up for this permanently?

7:55 Do we want that? But you know, your dad had some reservations because he was taking a lot of my time. Like you know, I did an hour of work with him every day to repattern his brain exercises. And that was an hour a day for the first year and a half until he refused to do it anymore. But anyway, there were just, you know, reservations of signing up for it. So we came to you and your sister and I think we asked you first, what do you think if we adopt him? Do you remember what you said? I don't remember exactly.

8:38 Something to the effect of if we don't, who would? Like we seemed like the right choice. I think your most exact I can remember words where, well, I'm not sure that we want to keep him. But I wouldn't want to be the one to reject him and make it one more rejection in his life and ruin the rest of his life. You said those words. I thought, boy, that's pretty young, 12 years old, to really get the impact it could have on his life if we had said no. I think by that point, if I'm kind of going through the story chronologically in my own mind, by that point, I had seen the impact that it was beginning to have.

9:27 In that first year, again, he felt kind of guarded. It felt almost like we were hosting. It wasn't the same as having somebody be a part of the family. But as his needs began to emerge and as the mess began to kind of spill out into our family, I think one of the most significant things that I noticed was how much demand it put on you and dad, some, but mostly you. And the impact that then in turn had on me, and I know that we might talk about that more later, but it was in those couple of years, I want to say moving into middle school that I realized the demand that he requires of my mom is significant and it doesn't enable her to have the strength, energy, emotional capacity to deal with quite as much on our side.

10:16 And so I began to see some of that impact pretty, I remember specific instances where I thought, wow, that is really impacting her and that's preventing her from being as available for me as a result. And so when you asked the question about adoption, I think I had a greater understanding, which doesn't surprise, I don't remember the exact words, but to say, I'm not sure if I want to keep it. That's how I mean, that's a side. No, at that point, it has gotten more difficult. And those things were becoming more apparent. And I think I realized going into this was not going to be just like hosting somebody or having someone stay at our house.

10:57 You know, I think I really began to understand probably as I matured, but then also as I saw the impact on the family and what it was doing specifically, I really do think specifically to you, it had the most impact. Oh, I'm sure that that's true. But I think it did affect you and your sister. We'll talk about that in just a minute. But I will tell you what Debbie said, in case you don't remember that as well. Now, Debbie and Josh had not bonded much at all. You were a more compassionate person at that period of time. She is now but wasn't as a 14 year old.

11:39 And she really could care less if actually she'd rather he weren't there, I think. And so, you know, dad's saying it now we're going to have an impasse here. Mom and Michelle think we should and Debbie and dad think maybe we shouldn't. But Debbie said these most amazing words. She says, we just need to suffer gladly. God sent him to us. He must have things to teach us. And all of us even all of us went, what did you say? Because you know, Debbie wasn't at that place in her life to have those thoughts really. And yet God used it as a turning point, a confirmation for your dad as well as for me and you all that, all right, this was of God, we will do this and trust him through it, having no idea what was ahead really.

12:33 And so it was a thought through decision one I felt guided well by God. So you all moved from a Christian school. Again, you're two grades ahead of him. You're only a few months older than he is. And we went to, you all were in the same middle school. And he started to get in trouble. Did you even know he was getting in trouble? I mean, yes, I had awareness that he was getting in trouble. Interestingly, it didn't impact my social circle all that much. I really enjoyed moving from a private school to a public school because of the just kind of amount of exposure to different kinds of things.

13:17 I think I was really excited about that at that stage in life. I think he also had exposure to all different kinds of things. But his response to it may have been slightly different than mine. I did know he was getting in trouble at school. And I think as I was considering this coming into this interview, I don't know that I think each sibling is going to respond a little differently based on personality. And I think for me, I do and I think you can speak to this. You've known me my whole life. I think I've in general done an okay job at separating my stuff from other people's stuff and not being as impacted by his behavior as a reflection of me.

14:00 It didn't feel like that to me. But I began to be concerned for him on occasion. We didn't have the opportunity to see each other on campus a whole lot. But when I did, I would stop him. I would check in after school. I would check in on him. And I felt a bit like I began to be concerned for him more than I was concerned for his impact on my reputation. I think having enough separation, I recognized he's my brother, he's not me. People didn't seem to judge me differently based on him. I don't know that they even knew we were siblings, but it was a pretty big school. But I did begin to be concerned. You know, that was about the time he started getting in.

14:41 I want to say he got involved in gangs starting that year. Some gang behavior and some just getting in fights being with people that weren't great influences. And so I began to worry about him a little bit more and maybe even take on a bit of responsibility more than I had in the past, which I recognize did not try and take your role, but certainly began to feel responsible for him quite a bit more than I had in the past. Well, one of the things I noticed, Michelle, was that in the next years, and it was quite a few years you were home observing what was going on and how things got worse and worse for him with the interruptions that came.

15:29 The time that he was at House of Hope was over a year where he lived there. But we even went to House of Hope as a family. And I went every week, but you and Debbie would come sometime because one of their objectives was to build the family relationship. And I noticed that you did that well. You had a relationship with him. And even in the harder times in high school, even when he would tell me, well, you know, Michelle's not as good as you think she is, to the protection, you know, saying I'm not the only one, you know.

16:09 But you and he managed a relationship, as I observed. And I don't know if you really thought about that or could comment on it. I mean, we are very similar in age. So it would be very difficult if we did not have a relationship, it would be obvious. Even though we were grades apart and there were a number of things that were different. We were in a lot of ways, we had a lot of things in common. We did know some of the same people. We had a lot of we were at the same place, like developmentally, that's the counselor talking I know in hindsight. But and, you know, like I did, I did make mistakes through high school. I did, you know, figure myself out a little, make some poor choices here and there.

16:55 And I think he appreciated that I wasn't perfect. I'm sure he appreciated that you weren't perfect. But he wanted to make sure I knew it. He wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't perfect. It's not all that helpful to compare because I don't think he would have come on the upside on that if he had done. I think it was helpful for him to see that I did not do things perfectly. I think that was a divisive thing for him to feel like I was better than him. And then for him to feel like I was not seemed to really bring us together. Even though, you know, what I would call poor decisions in my own life were probably much less than pure and not as impactful as some of the decisions that he made over the years.

17:41 I think it was a good thing to have enough common ground, both in age and in development and in figuring out life that it we were able to build a relationship. I didn't hold him to a lot of standards. I had the benefit of not being his parent, so I didn't have to. I mean, apart from helping wake him up in the morning and making sure he didn't get beat up every now and then. I was much bigger than me at this point. I don't know about. He was much bigger than me at this point. So I don't know that it was much of an impact except that people seem to respect that I was older. In general, I think it helped us to not have to he didn't have to prove anything to me.

18:23 And I think he realized that I wasn't I didn't expect much of him that was different, you know, that I didn't I didn't expect him to be something else. Is that an is that an adequate answer for you? That's a that's a that's fine. That's good. That's just helpful for people to to understand when you have someone in your family who's making some poor choices, that there's going to be some tensions between the siblings. And I know many, many of my listeners are fearful when they have a prodigal making some really bad choices. If they're in the home, what that impact say younger children.

19:05 And and so to realize it's possible to build a relationship. You had more maturity than some people. He really connected with your friends who came to live with us. Oh, oh, yeah. He also was probably slightly motivated by the fact that I had friends who were girls who were around his age. Certainly that had an impact. I will add, though, you know, we we spoke earlier about my response in middle school going into adoption, recognizing some of the demand on you specifically. And dad's job was demanding at that time, too. I mean, he was still demanded of and Josh, but I feel like you you bore more of the brunt of it because of your your role in it.

19:53 I think when some of that began to happen, me personally and my personality, I began to back up quite a bit more and and just not isolate because I don't feel like I isolated, but become more independent. I think part of my ability to see him and maybe even try and take care of him. Some was part of that adultified role. Again, I'm a counselor, so maybe I oversee things. But I think what was interesting is as I began to move into more independence, that probably did influence how and when I made choices and decisions about trying new things, meeting new people, perhaps sooner than some people would.

20:35 So I do think if I'm honest about it, his presence had an impact on when I made poor choices or good choices or developed into trying to be an adult in more situations, right? Be on my own, be more independent for better or for worse. I think there's pros and cons to that. But it did impact me that way because of my personality. That was my tendency was to pull back. I didn't openly rebel. I didn't fight you guys very much. I don't believe anyway, not really. But what I what I tended to more was to back up and say, OK, I'm going to be my own person. I'm going to do this on my own. There's some benefits and some challenges to that at an early age.

21:19 So here's the big question. So tell me what you think your parents did well and where they could have done better. I feel like this is what's interesting about this. And you could probably do this interview with Debbie also, and she would have very different answers. Even as I've talked with her in hindsight over the years, not recently, she would say things differently. Her experience was different. She was a couple of years older. I think the recognition of the displacement it caused, you didn't realize until later. And so I think knowing more of that on the front end might have changed a few of your intentional behaviors.

22:05 Not that you would have had a ton more capacity, not that you would have had a ton more ability or emotional strength to be able to deal with it. But I think in hindsight, you were greater able to see how adding Josh in some ways displaced me in some capacities. And so I think had you seen that on the front end or known that going in, and maybe that's why it's helpful for people here to hear that, it does have an impact of that if you are not aware of it and consciously fighting against it. I think you all did a great job of continuing to participate in all of our activities. I didn't feel like you didn't try to be present, that you didn't try and be there, that you weren't active, wanting me to do the things I wanted to do, supportive of my activities.

22:51 You did all of those things. Those things were very good. And I didn't feel like I was neglected or not able, none of those things were true. I felt like you are being very intentional to try and set time aside, but the natural tendency of the just the energy and emotion and everything that he required took some time, yes, but also in addition to that took just all of those energy away a little more than I think. At the time, I think you knew it, but in hindsight, I think you saw it more clearly. And I would say the same for me. I don't know that I saw it happening until after I was like, oh, this has really changed our family dynamic.

23:33 And so I think you all made really good intentions to make sure to be there for me in the practical ways. But I think in the emotional and just capacity, it was diminished by the fact that he was there. And I think that those would be kind of flip sides of the same thing, if that makes sense. Do you agree? It does. I do agree. And you know, I don't know, looking back, what I would have done to change it, because his needs were doing well. You were doing really well. Debbie had her challenges.

24:13 She was a little more overt about what she was doing. But to me, you all were still both able to function and do well. You were doing well in school, you know, well, except for, you know, taking doing homework. I didn't do homework. I know. And so that at least stabbed my conscience if I recognized I was giving more attention to Josh than to either of you. And you would have felt it even more than Debbie because she left to go to college and you were still there for two more years.

24:55 And that's when it really got hard. But at the same time, I kept thinking, we're here to save this boy's life. Because when we looked at how he was living and the choices he made and the friends he connected with, all we could see was jail or dead as his future. And I don't think that's hyperbole. I think that's very real. What was quite possible. And so I know Debbie one time said, why do you let him get away with so many things? I said, Debbie, I could be on him every day all day for the little things as well as the big things.

25:36 I said, I have to choose to focus on the ones that will save his life. Not every single thing. And I know we expect more of you and of Michelle. But you're also capable of making better choices than he seems to be capable of. And so I'm sure we could have done lots more better. And if you have any other thoughts, because this isn't for my sake, this is for my listeners. What could be helpful to parents? I think one of the things you just said hits on what we were talking about earlier when I said I kind of pulled back and adultified a little, right? I stepped into my own independent role a little more quickly.

26:16 I think even you saying that is kind of more of the I realized I could let you step into that and it wasn't going to harm you too badly versus he might do serious harm to himself. So you were making choices based on the weight of what was most critical at the moment. Which again, I don't think I want you to hear me say I don't think I ever faulted you for any of that or either of you. I think I saw it and understood what was happening also, at least in part, maybe more in hindsight. But it's certainly those choices to and I agree.

26:56 I remember one instance when you called maybe I was in college at this point, maybe I was in high school and you said, well, Josh has been hit by a semi truck. And I was like, okay, thinking that feels like it's par for the course. Is he alive? Is he not? That was kind of the question I always had in my mind. Am I going to get a call from you all at some point that says, hey, this happened and he didn't survive? I agree with you. I feel like that was always a possibility in my mind. Not that I didn't live in fear of that, but I had this. No, I know you didn't, but I did to some degree. And I have figured out I'm something of a rescuer.

27:39 And so the thought that I could fail to do my part to salvage this person, that God's entrusted to us. And I didn't always feel like we were adequate for what he gave us, but he came through. Wait, I have one more thing to throw in there. And I think this is relevant for people of all. I think this is relevant for people of all stages of this. You have developed over the years. This is going to sound funny for me to say this to you because you're my mother, but you have developed over the years a greater ability to be outside of the situation with Josh.

28:19 I think for a while, even in our conversations, it was difficult for things to be about me, or even about you some. It became very much about Josh a lot. And part of that was because the severity of it all the time. It's kind of like what happens in the news now, right? The things that are always on everybody's talking about because it's what's going on. And it's hard to not talk about that because it's such a significant thing. But I did think, again, in hindsight, but I did feel this over the years, sometimes it was hard to want to call and spend a lot of time talking because the conversation revolves so much, so solely on whatever major issue was happening with him.

29:04 And I think that's something that even if I wanted to express to your listeners, that's something you have some control over, right? Even though that's true and that is happening, to be aware of the needs of this other person are here too. And I'll say as kids in general, and this is true for my kids too, they want me to care about what's going on with them. And they want to be able to talk about what's going on with them. And they want me to leave time for them. And I don't always do that well with my own kids even. But I think you have realized that over the years and have started to be more intentional and remedy that, that we can have conversations about what's going on with both of us at this stage. And that's a little bit different than what we were able to do for a long time.

29:45 But even into adulthood, there was a fair amount of time that every time I called, there was something going on with Josh. And that became what we talked about. I'm sorry. That you don't know. I know, but I am. You look back, you want to have done everything you could right for your kids. And where most of us don't have the capacity to do everything right for every child. Absolutely not. And so you do what you can. And gratefully, things are so much different with Josh now. But his life is still challenging. And I do still want to hear about him, FYI.

30:26 That doesn't make it. I know, and you do. But not nearly as much because I don't talk to him very much because he's too busy working. And he does and family issues and stuff for him. So what do you think you have learned and what or has God taught you or has really impacted your life through this? You know, maybe I've said this in your presence. Maybe I haven't. But I don't know that I would do what I'm doing. Maybe I would. You know, we've talked about my personality leans this direction anyway. But I'm not sure that I would have gotten into counseling or even been stretched to deal with things at the depth and capacity that I was were it not for our experience with Josh. I think his presence in our family, the changes that produced in our family gave me one, it forced me to deal with more serious and real things.

31:18 Up until that point, we really had lived in a bit of a bubble, especially when it comes to Christianity and like our safe zone. And so we didn't anymore. Our bubble was gone in a couple of ways. But in a good way, and I'm using that as a positive, I think it forced me to have to consider things and deal with things and grow. And even though I know I mentioned earlier about the stepping into adulthood, there have been some real benefits of being forced to consider real issues at a time when I think I have the capacity to do it at least to some degree. And it has given me greater ability to be compassionate and empathic with others, which has made it possible for me to do my job.

32:02 That's great. So what is your relationship with Josh? I mean, I think we have a fine relationship. Honestly, we don't communicate very much. But that's based on circumstance, not on lack of relationship or poor relationship. When we get to get I love him, I think he loves me. He would say that, which is significant. And you know, we text on occasion, we send a funny thing every now and then. He's not a great communicator. I've actually been thinking I should start just communicating with his wife or if I want to get pictures and things because he's not great at it. I get pictures from his wife. So in general, though, I think we're in a fine place, right?

32:45 Like I don't feel major tension. I feel like we have a good healthy relationship. I feel like we have a normal adult relationship for people who are very far from each other and don't have a lot of time to connect. I think if we were in the similar place, we'd probably spend time together and enjoy each other's company. But I don't know, I think we get along. I think we care about each other. I don't feel like there's there's resentment or tension on either person's part. That's good. That's good. And I that's what I would observe. Yeah, I think that's true. One last question. What would you say to other families who are living through this kind of prodigal wilderness impact or input for parents or siblings?

33:30 I think and this is one part counselor, one part me. That's OK. Not to be buried by the guilt and shame. I know you said this a minute ago, but not a single person can do everything perfectly. And I don't know that there is a standard for perfection that we could even hold someone to in this. Right. Like this is part of this. My experience, maybe I'll speak from my experience. My experience is that, you know, things are broken. And when you're dealing with somebody who has experienced a lot of brokenness and is pretty broken themselves, there's not an expectation that that brokenness isn't going to impact the people around them. And that brokenness then impacts others.

34:11 But that impact has that positive and the negative. Right. And it doesn't do us any good to sit there in guilt and shame about it. There's enough things to worry about that that isn't helpful. And so being able to say, I recognize that this is what happened where I to do it again, I might do something differently. So next time I'm going to try this instead is much more helpful than sitting there condemning yourself or condemning them for the way that things have happened. It is a dangerous thing to have an expectation of the circumstance or the person that is unrealistic because you will inevitably be disappointed. Like that.

34:52 And when there's a difference between reality and expectation, it's much easier to adjust your expectation than it is to adjust the reality. That just takes more time. So just recognizing in this circumstance coming with humility and prayer is much more important than having all the answers or doing it exactly right. Because again, it's not like there's a standard. It's not like a math problem where you can say if you do this plus this, it equals this. Like that just isn't how it works with people and it isn't how it works in this world. And so my encouragement would be letting go of the guilt and shame. I'm sure there are many other things I could say, but I feel like that is maybe the most important. And if you have any more difficult stuff, I know you're going over in a lot of your other podcasts.

35:33 Fantastic. Thank you, Michelle. I really appreciate your being open and honest and willing to talk about this. And I really am praying for all of you who are listening that our conversation will help you and your family as you walk through some of the hard times. For some of you, it will be someone who is a foster child or adopted. And for others of you, it will be your own born child or more than one even that bring the tension and the struggle into your family. And maybe our being willing to share some of this will be of help to you as you navigate.

36:16 And as Michelle said, cast aside the guilt and shame and look for the ways to go forward and pray for sure. So thank you, Michelle. God bless you, every one of you. Thank you for joining me today on the When You Love a Prodigal Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Your review helps the show reach more people with the hope and encouragement of Jesus. Don't forget, take a look at the show notes, and for more helpful information, resources, and books, check out judydouglass.com.

37:03 That's Douglass with two S's. You can find me on Facebook and on Twitter and Instagram at JudyDouglass417. Until next week.